Darth Maul vs Gorgon

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DarthAznable

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#1  Edited By DarthAznable

I thought I'd do something different. This is TCW Maul, he cannot use any offensive force (no force choke, push) both combatants are equipped Vibroblades, No stone stare for Gorgon.

Battle takes place in generic Dojo.

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@darthaznable: Yes. Arguably more skilled than Gorgon, but even if we call it even, he's far faster, and his precognition and force senses will be far more responsive than Gorgon's reaction time. And I question if Gorgon can use TP as effectively against Maul, because he's shown the ability to cloud the mind of an opponent while he's fighting them (Obi Wan during TPM) and I'd assume he does this during most fights since his lightsaber style is centered around unbalancing your opponent. He's also put a telepath into a coma before, by allowing him to enter his mind.

Even if Gorgon has his TP, he's getting decapitated.

Anyone want to debate any of the points I made?

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Maul

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Strider1992

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#5  Edited By Strider1992

@i_like_swords: Faster than Gorgon? Granted my knowledge on Maul is limited but Gorgon is incredibly fast in both combat speed and reaction time:

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What feats does Maul have to match this?

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JakeN7

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@strider92: Blaster bolts should be just as fast as bullets.

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Whirlwind_33

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@jaken7: From my understanding they are about even, but I could be wrong

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JakeN7

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@whirlwind_33: That's what I thought as well. Blaster bolts might be a tad (just a tad) slower though. *shrugs*

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@jaken7 said:

@strider92: Blaster bolts should be just as fast as bullets.

I was just quering the statement that Maul is "Far faster" It was my understanding they were fairly close in terms of speed.

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Both are fast, Gorgon has excellent damage soak, taking Wolverine to task. With the weapons and conditions, I'd roll with with Gorgon.

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#12  Edited By JakeN7

@strider92: This is all from @i_like_swords: TPM Maul Respect Thread. All credit goes to him.

"Moves faster than the eye can see.

“You— you don’t understand ,” he said. “You can’t be here. He thinks you’re dead.” Zero started to stand up, and Maul’s hand moved faster than the eye could see, grabbing Zero’s fork and slamming it down so that it impaled the Twi’lek’s sleeve, pinning his arm to the table.

Maul: Lockdown

Activates his lightsaber just in time to deflect seven blaster bolts from a bounty hunter at close range, his hands moving in a blur.

He thumbed on both blades as the next blaster bolt and half a dozen more came his way in rapid succession. The Sith apprentice’s hands were a blur as he let the dark side take him over completely, giving in to its power and allowing it to control and manipulate him. Blaster bolts struck the lightsaber’s spinning blades and were deflected into the walls, the ceiling, the floor. No time to aim, though a bolt or two did hit the bounty hunter without apparent effect.

Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

Dodges a wrist-launcher rocket after it was fired at extremely close range, disappearing in a blur before the bounty hunter's eyes.

Desperate, she reached for her wrist launcher. Her only chance was to hit the horned one squarely and hope that the explosion would be contained enough by the other’s body to allow Lihnn to survive. But as she triggered the launcher the tattooed man seemed to disappear in a blur. All of a sudden there was a hole in the wall where an instant ago it had been solid.

Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

He sidesteps blaster bolts.

Maul opened the door and stepped into the office. Trezza was seated behind his massive desk. Kilindi stood before him. And Meltch Krakko stood on the far side of the room, near an open fireplace.

Kilindi gasped at the sight o Maul's blood-soaked body. Maul fixed his gaze on Krakko and walked straight toward him. Even though Maul was not carrying any weapons, Krakko drew his blaster and fired at him. Maul jerked his body to the left, dodged the blaster bolt, and kept walking toward Krakko. Krakko fired two more shots. Maul dodged those too before he grabbed Krakko's gun arm with one hand, and his neck with the other.

The Wrath of Darth Maul

Maul running five times faster than a human can travel.

But there was an even quicker way to overtake them. He called upon the Force, moving easily five times faster than a human could travel at a dead run. There was no way they could escape him now.

Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

Maul spins a web of light out of his lightsaber blades during a fight.

He pressed the attack viciously, blocking and thrusting, the twin radiant blades spinning a web of light about him.

Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

Dodges a freight train coming at him at over 100km/h (or, over 60mph).

He landed lightly. The entire tunnel was shaking as with the roar of some titanic beast. Maul looked up to see a driverless freight transport bearing down on him at better than one hundred kilometers an hour. Anyone else, even a trained athlete raised in a heavier gravity field, would have been crushed to paste. But Maul seized the Force, let it whip him up and to the side as if he were attached to a giant elastic band. The metal behemoth missed him by millimeters.

Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

Spins his blade during combat, so fast, it forms a shield.

But they did not prevent her from deflecting his strikes as he again moved within range, his twin blades spinning so fast they seemed to merge into a crimson shield.

Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

This one is veryimpressive. Maul is fighting so fast, that his blows seem to be coming from everywhere, being delivered all at once. That's alright on it's own, but Maul just moments prior to this fight had been shot in the right arm at point blank by a blaster. He didn't even have full use of his right arm and he was capable of moving at such speeds.

In his mind, the duel was all but over— his opponent was now dragging out the inevitable moment of defeat in a series of small humiliations. By turning to such diversionary tactics, Vosa had all but admitted that she was no match for the erratic staccato blows that he was delivering, seemingly from everywhere, all at once.

Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

Moves so fast that recording equipment needs to be slowed down to see him.

When he was satisfied that he had committed the results of his reconnaissance to memory, he shrugged out of his cloak and leapt straight up over the fence, landing precisely where some of the rocks he had tossed rested. Then he sprang to a series of other sites that ultimately carried him to the wall of the principal building, moving with such speed the entire time that whatever holorecordings were being made wouldn't show him unless they were played in slow motion.

Episode I Adventures: The Fury of Darth Maul

Moves faster than a droid can see.

Maul delivered a sharp kick to the droid's spherical underside. The droid soared toward the ceiling but regained control before impact and flew back toward the Sith. Maul leaped aside, moving faster than the droid's photoreceptor could follow. The droid raced past him and smashed hard against the cell wall.

Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

During a training exercise, Maul is facing a droid that can throw blows imperceptibly fast. Despite this, he still perceives his surroundings as if time had slowed down.

Rapier lunged at full extension, its metal knee joint bent almost to the floor. The needle point flickered toward Maul's heart, almost too fast to see.

The dark side blossomed in Darth Maul, the power of it resonating in him like black lightning, augmenting his years of training, guiding his reactions. Time seemed to slow, to stretch.

Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

States he can kill four or five beings in the flicker of an eyelash.

The Raiders shake their gaderffii and begin to surround me. There are just too many of them. I can take out four or five in the flicker of an eyelash, but that will just infuriate the rest. Frustration boils inside me. These interruptions deflect me from my mission.

Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

Slashes a droid twice, so fast an onlooker couldn't even see either blow delivered.

Anger rises in me, which is good. The darkness crests and roars. I twist in the air, my lightsaber twirling, revolving. Its balance is perfect in my hand. I strike one hard blow to the left flank of the droid. I feel the power of the move reverberate all the way to my shoulder. It gratifies me. The other blow to the right follows a fraction of an instant later, so close that an observer would not be able to tell which blow came first.

Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

Maul speedblitzes multiple squads of battle droids. A squad is made up of 8 droids. He would of been deflecting dozens of blaster bolts from numerous angles while doing this.

Calling his long lightsaber to his hand, he made short work of the squad, decapitating them with his blade or exploding them by deflecting blaster bolts back at them. The brief altercation drew several more patrols, the members of which he similarly dismembered.

End Game

Maul clearing through a 20 meter line's worth of Gungan soldiers, decapitating and slicing in half all of them, while dodging their spears and bombs.

Some of the Gungan riders saw him coming and took aim. Maul twisted his body, either evading flights of energy lances and spheres or fending them off with the lightsaber. Letting go of the STAP when he was still twenty meters from Ganne and the general, he called on the Force to send himself tearing through a score of mounted Gungans. It was clear that they had never seen anything like him. But then, who had? What Sith in the past thousand years had been allowed to wield a lightsaber in open battle? Was that in itself not enough to qualify him as atrue Sith?

The rubbery Gungans all but disintegrated at the touch of the twin blades Maul had hoped to reserve for the Jedi. Their billed heads flew in all directions. His slashes halved them down the middle or through the midsection, and they squawked as they died. Their nostrils flared and their eyes bulged from their heads, and the white sand beach grew puddled with their blood. Maul maneuvered closer to Ganne, cutting the legs out from under the Gungans’ mounts or impaling them on his lightsaber. He launched himself into the air when he was still five meters from the Boss and the general. The latter lost his head to one of the blades, and Ganne was knocked from his mount by Maul’s extended left hand.

End Game

Catches four arrows and returns them to sender.

The Bartokks scurried across the corridor and jammed twin-bolt crossbows down through the floor's open slots. They aimed their weapons at Maul and fired. Four poison-tipped, armor-piercing arrows sped toward the Sith Lord. Maul's hands moved like lightning as he plucked each arrow from the air and flung them back at the assassins. The arrows shot up through the grated floor and struck the two snipers. Their arms reflexively reached to remove the arrows, but the poison worked rapidly. Now there were four Bartokks lying on the corridor floor above Darth Maul.

Episode I Adventures: The Fury of Darth Maul

Massive credit to @silver2467 for uploading some of these quotes on a thread from a while ago."

Doesn't come across too well in mobile because you can't really tell what's a quote and what's ILS' writing, but oh well.

Also, this was The Phantom Menace Maul, which is not his prime. TCW Maul is, which is the one being used for this battle.

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#13  Edited By Strider1992

@jaken7: They are all impressive feats but Gorgon has matched quite a few of them. Deflecting multiple bullets from machine guns and spinning his blade to form a shield:

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He also cut off a speedsters hands before she could react to stop him:

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@laflux this seems like something you'd be interested in.

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ShootingNova

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I thought Gorgon was stronger than Maul. I'm not sure Gorgon would be faster than Maul, though.

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JakeN7

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@strider92: Hmm...those are nearly on-par with a solid chunk of Maul's feats, but I still think Maul has the speed advantage. I'm gonna pass this debate off to the source himself.

@i_like_swords:

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#16  Edited By dondave

I doubt Tomi's telepathy is going to come into play here. He's not exactly a powerful telepath and reading Maul's mind would be a bad move considering it has been tried before and killed the telepath in question.

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Jacthripper

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Tough One, I'm leaning towards Maul due to ferocity and Gorgon due to slight skill advantage (my opinion) This is a really tough one, both have incredible pain tolerance and fighting capability. I'll go with Gorgon for now, because he's more used to fighting with a weighted weapon. It's really that close for me.

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@dondave: Isn't Gorgon blind without his TP?

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#19  Edited By Baron_von_Santa

gorgon for me. I have never seen maul move at his speed before.

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#20  Edited By Erkan12

@jaken7 said:

@strider92: Blaster bolts should be just as fast as bullets.

Probably even faster than bullets.

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@erkan12 said:

@jaken7 said:

@strider92: Blaster bolts should be just as fast as bullets.

Probably even faster than bullets.

They don't look it on film

@dondave said:

@jonny_anonymous He's not blind he just chooses to cover his eyes

I wonder if that's just to show off or if it helps him concentrate on the tp

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@jonny_anonymous He covers his eyes so he's not constantly turning people to stone.

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@strider92 said:

@i_like_swords: Faster than Gorgon? Granted my knowledge on Maul is limited but Gorgon is incredibly fast in both combat speed and reaction time:

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

What feats does Maul have to match this?

This feat is a personal favorite of mine and I think exceeds what Gorgon does here, all things considered.

No Caption Provided

As you can see Maul is mid-kick and not in any way preparing to deflect the blaster bolt. And we can see the blaster bolt itself has left the barrel of the gun and is travelling towards Maul. Next panel Maul has moved fast enough to, without even looking, redirect the blaster bolt back at the shooter. This is especially impressive because the feat in itself is impressive, but the fact he had enough time to aim the blaster bolt shows how mundane of a feat this is for him. And this is backed up by a source that states Maul has the equivalent of eyes in the back of his head, and can feel everything with the Force, not requiring his other senses.

Two of the droids— Rapier and Chain, he silently named them— were within his field of vision. The other two— Cudgel and Hachete— were not, being behind him. It did not matter; through his awareness of the Force he could sense their movements as plainly as if he had eyes in the back of his head.

Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

@strider92 said:

@jaken7: They are all impressive feats but Gorgon has matched quite a few of them. Deflecting multiple bullets from machine guns and spinning his blade to form a shield:

No Caption Provided

He also cut off a speedsters hands before she could react to stop him:

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

@laflux this seems like something you'd be interested in.

Maul has actually flat out been stated as being faster than Qui-Gon Jinn. And Qui-Gon Jinn himself has done exactly that - created a shield out of his blade and deflected multiple projectiles (blaster bolts). But Maul has done one better and created a web out of his lightsaber residue. Think of a spider web, and now think of how hard it would be to simulate the look of one using lightsaber residue while you're fighting someone.

He pressed the attack viciously, blocking and thrusting, the twin radiant blades spinning a web of light about him.

Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

The speedster feat is impressive, but it doesn't necessarily mean that Gorgon was keeping up with someone at Maul's combat speed. How fast was she coming at him? Maul has come within milimeters of a freight train and moved out the way so I think Maul stacks up in that way. However, Maul can actually fight at incredibly fast speeds, not just move at them in one striking motion like that speedster did there. He's been able to fight fast enough to appear like he is striking from every angle, all at the same time, to a force sensitive. And this was Maul with a right arm that had just been shot by a blaster bolt. Easily a speed feat that trumps all of Gorgon's.

In his mind, the duel was all but over— his opponent was now dragging out the inevitable moment of defeat in a series of small humiliations. By turning to such diversionary tactics, Vosa had all but admitted that she was no match for the erratic staccato blows that he was delivering, seemingly from everywhere, all at once.

Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

Maul has also mused over his ability to kill four or five beings in the flicker of an eyelash, which is backed up by the numerous times he's done things before people can blink, and the time's he has speedblitzed large groups of projectile-armed enemies.

The Raiders shake their gaderffii and begin to surround me. There are just too many of them. I can take out four or five in the flicker of an eyelash, but that will just infuriate the rest. Frustration boils inside me. These interruptions deflect me from my mission.

Episode I Journal Darth Maul

Maul speedblitzes multiple squads of battle droids. A squad is made up of 8 droids. Therefore we're looking at least 32 of them, supposing "multiple" implies three more squads after the first one. He would of been deflecting/dodging dozens of blaster bolts from numerous angles while doing this.

Calling his long lightsaber to his hand, he made short work of the squad, decapitating them with his blade or exploding them by deflecting blaster bolts back at them. The brief altercation drew several more patrols, the members of which he similarly dismembered.

End Game

Maul clearing through a 20 meter line's worth of Gungan soldiers, decapitating and slicing in half all of them, while dodging their spears and bombs.

Some of the Gungan riders saw him coming and took aim. Maul twisted his body, either evading flights of energy lances and spheres or fending them off with the lightsaber. Letting go of the STAP when he was still twenty meters from Ganne and the general, he called on the Force to send himself tearing through a score of mounted Gungans. It was clear that they had never seen anything like him. But then, who had? What Sith in the past thousand years had been allowed to wield a lightsaber in open battle? Was that in itself not enough to qualify him as atrue Sith?

The rubbery Gungans all but disintegrated at the touch of the twin blades Maul had hoped to reserve for the Jedi. Their billed heads flew in all directions. His slashes halved them down the middle or through the midsection, and they squawked as they died. Their nostrils flared and their eyes bulged from their heads, and the white sand beach grew puddled with their blood. Maul maneuvered closer to Ganne, cutting the legs out from under the Gungans’ mounts or impaling them on his lightsaber. He launched himself into the air when he was still five meters from the Boss and the general. The latter lost his head to one of the blades, and Ganne was knocked from his mount by Maul’s extended left hand.

End Game

I don't think travel speed matters too much in this fight but Maul has that in abundance if it is required. For perception speed, however, Maul has been able to see droids, who are striking just short of invisibly fast, in slow motion during a training exercise.

Rapier lunged at full extension, its metal knee joint bent almost to the floor. The needle point flickered toward Maul's heart, almost too fast to see.

The dark side blossomed in Darth Maul, the power of it resonating in him like black lightning, augmenting his years of training, guiding his reactions. Time seemed to slow, to stretch.

Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

Some of these feats can be attributed to his precognition/force senses, but in actuality, a lot of them come down to Maul's raw physical speed, in which he has more of than Gorgon, as well as perception and reaction speed. I don't think Gorgon will get splattered in two seconds but I don't see him keeping up too well for too long, especially against a fighter as skilled as Maul.

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@jonny_anonymous said:

@erkan12 said:

@jaken7 said:

@strider92: Blaster bolts should be just as fast as bullets.

Probably even faster than bullets.

They don't look it on film

That's because in film you only see the "tracer", which is the physical light you can see travelling. The actual "bolt", which is travelling at bullet+ speeds due to being an energy particle, is what is being deflected.

@jacthripper said:

Tough One, I'm leaning towards Maul due to ferocity and Gorgon due to slight skill advantage (my opinion) This is a really tough one, both have incredible pain tolerance and fighting capability. I'll go with Gorgon for now, because he's more used to fighting with a weighted weapon. It's really that close for me.

I doubt Gorgon is more skilled than Maul. His skill training hasn't been expounded on nearly as much as Maul's, and Maul has flat out dominated some very good fighters in the past.

Also, Maul trained with a vibroblade for years. He went on a course called the "Gora", where the candidate has to survive for 7 days with nothing but a vibroblade, while fending off constant swarms of predatory creatures and trying to scavenge and make shelter. Not only was Maul able to kill these animal for food - he killed them for sport and was having the time of his life. He has no issue using a weighted weapon.

For Maul, the current exercise was merely a warm-up for a bigger challenge on Orsis, an Academy rite of passage called the Gora. Named after the challenge's location, an immense volcanic crater filled with dense forsts, vast swamps, and bloodthirsty beasts. The Gora required a cadet to traverse the crater for seven days, surviving without food or equipment except for a single vibroblade.

***

The first day of the Gora was beyond intense.

The second day was even more brutal.

The third, fourth, fifth, and sixth days were increasingly bloody. And Maul was having the time of his life.

Countless wild predators kept him constantly occupied as well as sleepless. Except for his heightened senses and physical strength, he did not use the Force in any obvious way. With his vibroblade more often in his hand than in the sheath strapped to his upper leg, he moved like a jungle animal through the forests and grassy swamps that filled the enormous crater, killing some beasts in self-defence, some for food, and others for sheer sport.

The Wrath of Darth Maul

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@jonny_anonymous: In prequel movies (new ones) looks faster. Though you right, old ones seems slow.

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@dondave: Oh yea I forgot he could even do that

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@dondave said:

I doubt Tomi's telepathy is going to come into play here. He's not exactly a powerful telepath and reading Maul's mind would be a bad move considering it has been tried before and killed the telepath in question.

I don't think Telepathy will come into play too, but I doubt Tomi reading Maul's mind would disable him. The telepath in Question was overwhelmed by the darkness and evil in Maul. I doubt Gorgon would have the same problem.

@strider92 I'd say Maul. He has comparable combat feats to Gorgon against faster opponents. Physicals should be around the same, and despite Gorgon's healing factor, Maul can still win via dismemberment or head-chop.

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@laflux said:

@dondave said:

I doubt Tomi's telepathy is going to come into play here. He's not exactly a powerful telepath and reading Maul's mind would be a bad move considering it has been tried before and killed the telepath in question.

I don't think Telepathy will come into play too, but I doubt Tomi reading Maul's mind would disable him. The telepath in Question was overwhelmed by the darkness and evil in Maul. I doubt Gorgon would have the same problem.

@strider92 I'd say Maul. He has comparable superior combat, reaction and perception speed feats to Gorgon against faster opponents. Physicals should be around the same, and despite Gorgon's healing factor, Maul can still win via dismemberment or head-chop.

The way the telepath was killed was never really confirmed as far as I know. He just tries to probe Maul's mind and ends up dead. That's all I can really decipher from it without speculating.

Edit: Scratch that, just remembered he says "so dark..." as he dies. But I still think it suggests that Gorgon would need to do some considerable raking around to read Maul's mind. Maul's a competent telepath himself, has been able to cloud Obi-Wan's mind during a fight, and can make people lose interest in him using the Force on a whim. So we're agreed, TP won't help much here.

Also fixed the second sentence ;P

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@jacthripper said:

@i_like_swords: Then i'm back to a stalemate

:(

Why? Maul is faster in every way, more skilled and actually has more experience than Gorgon with the blade in question, not that this contributes much of anything anyway.

Just saying.. it's not exactly common for non-force sensitives to have the ability to scratch a Jedi or Sith (let alone one of the best in Galactic history) unless they have their own kind of power, and Gorgons physical enhancements aren't really cutting it here.

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@laflux The telepath wasn't exact someone pure of heart. He was a member of Black Sun after all.

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@dondave said:

@laflux The telepath wasn't exact someone pure of heart. He was a member of Black Sun after all.

Not to mention he had just watched Maul kill over 40 Black Sun enforcers, as well as "7 of the galaxies deadliest beings in less time than it takes to say it". Takes someone with some brass to try and probe Maul's mind after witnessing that, let alone after seeing what he looks like.

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#34  Edited By slimj87d

@strider92: that didn't stop Gorgon from getting tagged by phobos, a very few times by Wolverine and Shang chi off the top of my head. Iron fist also has never shown speed feats to deflect bullets like that, it didn't stop him from hitting and punching Gorgon more times in their short on panel fight while not using chi.

Darth Maul wins this.

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@slimj87d said:

@strider92: that didn't stop Gorgon from getting tagged by phobos, a very few times by Wolverine and Shang chi off the top of my head.

Darth Maul wins this.

People get tagged by slower characters all the time in comics, that doesn't mean they aren't fast. I don't know why you're trying to use logic like that to discredit Gorgon's speed.

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@wolverine08 said:

@slimj87d said:

@strider92: that didn't stop Gorgon from getting tagged by phobos, a very few times by Wolverine and Shang chi off the top of my head.

Darth Maul wins this.

People get tagged by slower characters all the time in comics, that doesn't mean they aren't fast. I don't know why you're trying to use logic like that to discredit Gorgon's speed.

Yeah, and then the same logic could be applied to Gorgon tagging a speedster. Slower characters tagging characters who have better speed feats is a testament to their timing and reactions.

If Gorgon tagged Kid Flash the same way Deathstroke did, that wouldn't make him = to Kid Flash. It would mean he has fast enough reactions and good enough timing to tag someone at that level of travel and combat speed. The same way Phobos tagging Gorgon doesn't make him = to Gorgon.

We should base a characters actual speed based on their own feats of combat movement, like Gorgon blitzing Wolverine, or Maul throwing strikes fast enough to appear to be everywhere at once, all at the same time.

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#37  Edited By Jacthripper

@i_like_swords: If we get on the speed debate, Maul has terrible combat speed, because he literally watched Obi-Wan flip over him and slash him in half.

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@i_like_swords: If we get on the speed debate, Maul has terrible combat speed, because he literally watched Obi-Wan flip over him and slash him in half.

Are you actually serious, or are you trolling?

That's tantamount to me saying Gorgon has less than peak human speed because Daredevil put him down with a kick. Stop lowballing.

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I actually think I need create a blog addressing all of the areas Maul gets lowballed. I can't believe over a decade of EU later, people are still bringing up the complete plot device of a win for Obi Wan in TPM. It's ridiculous.

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@slimj87d said:

@strider92: that didn't stop Gorgon from getting tagged by phobos, a very few times by Wolverine and Shang chi off the top of my head.

Darth Maul wins this.

People get tagged by slower characters all the time in comics, that doesn't mean they aren't fast. I don't know why you're trying to use logic like that to discredit Gorgon's speed.

Because this goes back to what I said earlier. You can deflect a bullet all you want, but when it comes to combat, it becomes a game of chess.

Gorgon deflects bullets, but gets tagged by characters that obviously don't punch as fast as bullets way more times than he has deflected bullets themselves.

Example, Shang Chi was able to tag Gorgon multiple times by using combat prowess and his surroundings. He didn't need to be faster than a bullet, he just needed skill.

Same reason why Gorgon most likely took down Yoyo so easily, because of her inexperience (she's a person that barely started training with her powers, we don't even know if she can speed up her mind like the Flash).

Darth Maul's skill is on par with Gorgon's here if not he exceeds Gorgon, so Gorgon doesn't' have the skill gap to rely on there. Darth Maul deflects laser fire that is 10 if not 100s of times faster than a bullet. There's no advantages to Gorgon's speed here when he's fighting someone that has better speed feats, better precognition feats and is equally as skilled as he.

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#41  Edited By Wolverine008

@slimj87d said:

@wolverine08 said:

@slimj87d said:

@strider92: that didn't stop Gorgon from getting tagged by phobos, a very few times by Wolverine and Shang chi off the top of my head.

Darth Maul wins this.

People get tagged by slower characters all the time in comics, that doesn't mean they aren't fast. I don't know why you're trying to use logic like that to discredit Gorgon's speed.

Because this goes back to what I said earlier. You can deflect a bullet all you want, but when it comes to combat, it becomes a game of chess.

Gorgon deflects bullets, but gets tagged by characters that obviously don't punch as fast as bullets way more times than he has deflected bullets themselves.

Example, Shang Chi was able to tag Gorgon multiple times by using combat prowess and his surroundings. He didn't need to be faster than a bullet, he just needed skill.

Same reason why Gorgon most likely took down Yoyo so easily, because of her inexperience (she's a person that barely started training with her powers, we don't even know if she can speed up her mind like the Flash).

Darth Maul's skill is on par with Gorgon's here if not he exceeds Gorgon, so Gorgon doesn't' have the skill gap to rely on there. Darth Maul deflects laser fire that is 10 if not 100s of times faster than a bullet. There's no advantages to Gorgon's speed here when he's fighting someone that has better speed feats, better precognition feats and is equally as skilled as he.

And guess what? He blitzed Wolverine, a trained fighter whose arguably the best martial artist on Marvel Earth whom actually sports better technical showings than Tomy before he could even notice he was there. Where was Wolverine's skill to counter Tomi's speed?

Once Tomi stopped smiling around and decided that there Avengers World fight was done, he blitzed and WTF stomped Shang before throwing him off a cliff.

He was too fast and physically dominant for Elektra, another skilled fighter to handle.

Tomi has overwhelmed many a skilled fighters with his speed.

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@slimj87d: It's also worth noting that Maul's actual combat speed/reactions in a fight are more proficient than Gorgons. Maul has "effortlessly" parried and deflected away a simultaneous assault from Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan, and has forced Obi-Wan to have to use every single one of his skills as well as a physical amp in order to even keep up with him. And he's been flat out stated as being faster than Qui-Gon Jinn who, like Gorgon, has created a shield with his blade in order to deflect volleys of blaster bolts. And of course, there's Maul fighting fast enough to appear like he is striking from everywhere at once, all at the same time. And that was with a right arm that had just been shot by a blaster point blank, and wasn't working properly.

Gorgon has no real advantages other than strength, durability and healing, but those are things rendered moot by Maul's speed and avoidance. You can't kill what you can't hit.

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@i_like_swords: If we get on the speed debate, Maul has terrible combat speed, because he literally watched Obi-Wan flip over him and slash him in half.

Lol

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#44  Edited By slimj87d

@wolverine08: In a matter of fact, tagging Yoyo isn't even that impressive, once she went airborne she last the ability to control her movement in all directions.

Where else has he overwhelmed many skilled fighters? Because honestly, his best blitzing feats come from his plot armor of being a brand new marketable villain. I haven't seen him do anything impressive since then. If we're going for consistency, those feats aren't the norm.

And most importantly, let me know where he's done all that to a character that's faster and equally as skilled as himself, someone like Darth Maul.

And if you are trying to say he's holding back all the time, then guess what, same thing is going to happen here, he's going to get cocky and get killed by Darth Maul?

Lastly, nowhere did I say Gorgon is slow. I'm pointing out that when it comes to combat, that speed hasn't helped him that much, so how is it going to help him against someone that does the same feats but against laser fire that is 10 if not 100s of times faster than a bullet.

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@slimj87d:

Where else has he overwhelmed many skilled fighters? Because honestly, his best blitzing feats come from his plot armor of being a brand new marketable villain. I haven't seen him do anything impressive since then. If we're going for consistency, those feats aren't the norm.

And most importantly, let me know where he's done all that to a character that's faster and equally as skilled as himself, someone like Darth Maul.

Wolverine is a skilled fighter, no? Has mastered Kree martial arts, knows 18 forms of Kung Fu, can put down class 100+ Stronations via pressure points just with his index finger, drops martial artists sporting Thing level durability with karate chops, etc. etc. Jimmy is honestly sporting better technical feats than Tomi. Want to know what happened to him? He got blitzed before he could even noticed Tomi was there.

Shang Chi, another vaunted fighter, Tomi stopped smiling around, blitzed him and then threw him off a cliff.

You bring up that Phobos tagged Tomi, so what? The kid ended up getting killed decisively at the end of the whole thing, so there's that.

Elektra, skilled fighter whom has slapped fistcuffs with Taskmaster, Silver Samurai, Bullseye, etc. was dispatched by Tomi in a few moves at the end of Enemy of the State before he went to deal with Wolverne.

The "plot armor" comment is just a generalized statement.

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@slimj87d:

Where else has he overwhelmed many skilled fighters? Because honestly, his best blitzing feats come from his plot armor of being a brand new marketable villain. I haven't seen him do anything impressive since then. If we're going for consistency, those feats aren't the norm.

And most importantly, let me know where he's done all that to a character that's faster and equally as skilled as himself, someone like Darth Maul.

Wolverine is a skilled fighter, no? Has mastered Kree martial arts, knows 18 forms of Kung Fu, can put down class 100+ Stronations via pressure points just with his index finger, drops martial artists sporting Thing level durability with karate chops, etc. etc. Jimmy is honestly sporting better technical feats than Tomi. Want to know what happened to him? He got blitzed before he could even noticed Tomi was there.

Shang Chi, another vaunted fighter, Tomi stopped smiling around, blitzed him and then threw him off a cliff.

You bring up that Phobos tagged Tomi, so what? The kid ended up getting killed decisively at the end of the whole thing, so there's that.

Elektra, skilled fighter whom has slapped fistcuffs with Taskmaster, Silver Samurai, Bullseye, etc. was dispatched by Tomi in a few moves at the end of Enemy of the State before he went to deal with Wolverne.

The "plot armor" comment is just a generalized statement.

I want you to see something, because I think your response was built off of a misunderstanding, if not, then respond to the rest of my points.

"And if you are trying to say he's holding back all the time, then guess what, same thing is going to happen here, he's going to get cocky and get killed by Darth Maul?

Lastly, nowhere did I say Gorgon is slow. I'm pointing out that when it comes to combat, that speed hasn't helped him that much, so how is it going to help him against someone that does the same feats but against laser fire that is 10 if not 100s of times faster than a bullet."

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@slimj87d said:

@wolverine08 said:

@slimj87d:

Where else has he overwhelmed many skilled fighters? Because honestly, his best blitzing feats come from his plot armor of being a brand new marketable villain. I haven't seen him do anything impressive since then. If we're going for consistency, those feats aren't the norm.

And most importantly, let me know where he's done all that to a character that's faster and equally as skilled as himself, someone like Darth Maul.

Wolverine is a skilled fighter, no? Has mastered Kree martial arts, knows 18 forms of Kung Fu, can put down class 100+ Stronations via pressure points just with his index finger, drops martial artists sporting Thing level durability with karate chops, etc. etc. Jimmy is honestly sporting better technical feats than Tomi. Want to know what happened to him? He got blitzed before he could even noticed Tomi was there.

Shang Chi, another vaunted fighter, Tomi stopped smiling around, blitzed him and then threw him off a cliff.

You bring up that Phobos tagged Tomi, so what? The kid ended up getting killed decisively at the end of the whole thing, so there's that.

Elektra, skilled fighter whom has slapped fistcuffs with Taskmaster, Silver Samurai, Bullseye, etc. was dispatched by Tomi in a few moves at the end of Enemy of the State before he went to deal with Wolverne.

The "plot armor" comment is just a generalized statement.

I want you to see something, because I think your response was built off of a misunderstanding, if not, then respond to the rest of my points.

"And if you are trying to say he's holding back all the time, then guess what, same thing is going to happen here, he's going to get cocky and get killed by Darth Maul?

Lastly, nowhere did I say Gorgon is slow. I'm pointing out that when it comes to combat, that speed hasn't helped him that much, so how is it going to help him against someone that does the same feats but against laser fire that is 10 if not 100s of times faster than a bullet."

I responded to your comment. You asked where Tomi had overwhelmed skilled fighters. I gave you four skilled fighters whom were decisively dispatched through the combination of Tomi's skill and physical prowess. Tomi has overwhelmed fast people through his combat speed. Wolverine's combat speed has been purported to be on par with Spider-Man, he dodges lightning, covers 30 foot distances fast enough to look like he just teleported, cuts guns in half before they've been fired, etc. He couldn't even see Tomi moving.

Elektra deflects bullets after they have been fired and she got overhwhelmed easily by Tomi's physical prowess.

Shang Chi has deflected bullets with his brazzers before, and Tomi blitzed him about two months ago.

I'm not even arguing nor do I believe Gorgon wins here, I'm simply commenting on the idea that because he gets tagged here and there like every comic character, his speed somehow doesn't translate to combat where there have been several instances of it doing so.

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@wolverine08:


I'll make this easier so we don't have to clutter the forum, here are my points:

1. Gorgon deflects bullets, cool.

2. Gorgon has been hit by people that don't strike as fast as bullets, not cool.

3. Gorgon ended up beating those people though. Cool.

4. Gorgon is fighting someone faster than he is, can actually strike almost as fast as a bullet and is on par if not better in swordsmanship than he is. Not cool.

Let me know where you disagree with that.

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@slimj87d: I think the main point Wolvie was trying to get across is that Phobos tagging Gorgon doesn't make him any slower than he actually is. Nobody is saying he moves at the speed of a bullet, or that him deflecting bullets is an indicator of his combat speed, but Gorgon has used his speed to overwhelm skilled fighters before, and thus does have proven combat speed.

We all agree Maul wins, but Gorgon in his own right does have exceptional combat speed, even outside of bullet deflecting feats.

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#50  Edited By slimj87d

@i_like_swords said:

@slimj87d: I think the main point Wolvie was trying to get across is that Phobos tagging Gorgon doesn't make him any slower than he actually is. Nobody is saying he moves at the speed of a bullet, or that him deflecting bullets is an indicator of his combat speed, but Gorgon has used his speed to overwhelm skilled fighters before, and thus does have proven combat speed.

We all agree Maul wins, but Gorgon in his own right does have exceptional combat speed, even outside of bullet deflecting feats.

Yeah, and I'm telling Wolverine that I know Gorgon is fast and he's defended himself against bullets, but it doesn't make him immune to being hit or struck due to a persons combat prowess because he has been hit, struck and sliced by things not as fast as a bullet before.