#1 Posted by Andhaira (91 posts) - - Show Bio

TPM Darth Maul

vs

Post Suit Darth Vader

Only movies are allowed for reference and Feats, no EU material.

Fight takes place in the Theed Hangar.

Who wins?

#2 Posted by Jeronimo (694 posts) - - Show Bio

Movie feats only:

Maul FTW

Vader is just too slow.

#3 Edited by ToO_RaW (1077 posts) - - Show Bio

Too slow, but he used way more TK than Maul used (in the movies). He could simply suspend Maul in mid air and then force choke him to death. Nothing Maul can do.

#4 Posted by Andhaira (91 posts) - - Show Bio

Vader never suspended anyone in midair using the Force. That was Tyrannus who did that in ROTS. Even if Vader did that to Maul, Maul could always choke him back or just Force Push him away like he did to Obi Wan in TPM. We never see Maul choke anyone, but he is a Sith, so it makes sense he could do it.

Anyhow, I too say Maul. No way could Vader beat him when he couldn't even beat Luke in ROTJ.

#5 Posted by girugamesh (439 posts) - - Show Bio

My vote goes to Maul for the reasons already states, faster, more agile opponent.

#6 Edited by ToO_RaW (1077 posts) - - Show Bio

@Andhaira said:

Vader never suspended anyone in midair using the Force. That was Tyrannus who did that in ROTS. Even if Vader did that to Maul, Maul could always choke him back or just Force Push him away like he did to Obi Wan in TPM. We never see Maul choke anyone, but he is a Sith, so it makes sense he could do it.

Anyhow, I too say Maul. No way could Vader beat him when he couldn't even beat Luke in ROTJ.

True. I just figured since we saw Tyrannus do it Vader could do it. Maul didn't use very much TK in the movies, so in that respect the TK advantage is definitely in Vader's favor while the agility and hand to hand combat / lightsabre combat goes to Maul.

I'd say TK > Lightsaber

Correct me if I am wrong, but I kind of recall Lucas stating that Luke was one of the most powerful Jedi's to exist by end of RoTJ. Somewhere in my readings I'm pretty sure...

#7 Posted by Nefarious (18861 posts) - - Show Bio

Darth Vader.

#8 Posted by Wonderbrezzy (221 posts) - - Show Bio

Vader, i think him blocking Hans Shots with lightening Speed, and absorbing the blast proves how fast and powerful he is. And his Power  alone

#9 Edited by Phoenix6000 (107 posts) - - Show Bio

By film-only, does that mean no Lucas quotes or guidebook material? Just from an on-screen standpoint, Maul was the better duelist and 20 years of improved film tech. But Vader's reaction feats are better due to blocking Han's blaster shots. What's to stop Vader from incapacitating Maul with choke?

@ToO_RaW said:

@Andhaira said:

Vader never suspended anyone in midair using the Force. That was Tyrannus who did that in ROTS. Even if Vader did that to Maul, Maul could always choke him back or just Force Push him away like he did to Obi Wan in TPM. We never see Maul choke anyone, but he is a Sith, so it makes sense he could do it.

Anyhow, I too say Maul. No way could Vader beat him when he couldn't even beat Luke in ROTJ.

True. I just figured since we say Tyrannus do it Vader could do it. Maul didn't use very much TK in the movies, so in that respect the TK advantage is definitely in Vader's favor while the agility and hand to hand combat / lightsabre combat goes to Maul.

I'd say TK > Lightsaber

Correct me if I am wrong, but I kind of recall Lucas stating that Luke was one of the most powerful Jedi's to exist by end of RoTJ. Someone in my readings.

Lucas said Luke became THE most powerful jedi to exist after RotJ. Vader is 80% of Palpatine, who is canonically the most powerful sith lord of all time.

If we're using just film feats, then Maul can't use choke. He's already shown it in the Clone Wars series, but since this is film-only, he can't. Vader's already defeated a clone of Maul in the EU as well. And Vader's lost to Luke on Death Star II was circumstantial Luke later clarified that Vader was too conflicted to take the fight seriously and if he had done so, Luke said he would have stood no chance against Vader.

#10 Posted by ToO_RaW (1077 posts) - - Show Bio

I knew it was something like that, Thanks.

And the OP says no EU. Lucas talking about the movies should count should it not?

Either way I still think Vader would win.

#11 Posted by Phoenix6000 (107 posts) - - Show Bio

EU is just Clone Wars and C-canon. I think Lucas' commentary, about his own work no less, would just be clarification so we don't have to speculate as much.

#12 Posted by ToO_RaW (1077 posts) - - Show Bio

Indeed.

#13 Edited by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@Phoenix6000 said: 

Lucas said Luke became THE most powerful jedi to exist after RotJ. Vader is 80% of Palpatine, who is canonically the most powerful sith lord of all time.

Show me a direct quote from Lucas that confirms this, because as yet, it's dubious that this alleged assessment on character power levels from Lucas even exists. People constantly purport that Lucas verified Luke, Vader, or Palpatine's powers in this way but never present a source. I want to see clear evidential criteria for this claim. 
 

Vader's already defeated a clone of Maul in the EU as well.

The two fought evenly for a while, but Vader defeated Maul by stabbing through himself after he nearly lost to Maul. Vader's fight with the resurrected Maul in Resurrection is pointless to bring up. Vader had not yet reached his prime, and Maul appeared to be enhanced by the dark side miasma permeating the fortress Vader confronted him in, based on Vader's instant recognition of the place's dark side ambiance, Maul's protracted tenure in that place, and the fact that Maul achieved feats he otherwise would be incapable of (such as damaging Vader's armor with unarmed melee strikes). 
 

And Vader's lost to Luke on Death Star II was circumstantial Luke later clarified that Vader was too conflicted to take the fight seriously and if he had done so, Luke said he would have stood no chance against Vader.

Vader's loss to Luke was circumstantial, not the fact that Luke could contend with him, and the only circumstantial factor about it was that Luke decided to harness the dark side against Vader, an optional source of power he is perfectly capable of extracting energy from without any external circumstances inhibiting Vader. Vader lost to Luke because Luke adopted a dark side-extracted ferocity, and that was the long and short of the circumstantial factors surrounding it. However, Luke was perfectly capable of fighting Vader on even terms. The only single time Luke has ever indicated he would have stood no chance against Vader was in The Courtship of Princess Leia, and within that book, Luke also said that he has never cut loose with his powers before, not even against Vader or the Emperor. So if your excuse for Vader's loss is that he held back on the grounds of Luke's report of the event, Luke held back too on the witness of that same summary. Furthermore, all Luke implied in Courtship was that Vader withheld application of his offensive Force powers, such as TK or Alter Environment, such as Vader exhibited during their duel on Bespin. But if you read their duel, Luke withheld his own offensive Force powers as well; so that argument garners no credence in way of the merits of your suggestion. Objective sources have told us time and again that Luke and Vader were perfect equals in a duel in RotJ. There is simply no dodging this fact. Luke was Vader's equal.

The fight this time was far more balanced. Vader discovered that Luke was his match, and, once again, the Sith Lord found his thoughts straying to an alliance between them against the Emperor.

Luke had indeed grown powerful since Bespin, and he was an equal match for his father.

--Taken from The Official Star Wars Fact File #111
Other sources have told us very plainly that Vader was the aggressor and was in fact willing to kill Luke in the duration of their duel.

Slowly, Luke and Vader circled. Lightsaber high above his head, Luke readied his attack from classic first-position; the Dark Lord held a lateral stance, in classic answer. Without announcement, Luke brought his blade straight down—then, when Vader moved to parry, Luke feinted and cut low. Vader counterparried, let the impact direct his sword toward Luke's throat... but Luke met the riposte and stepped back. The first blows, traded without injury. Again, they circled.
Vader was impressed with Luke's speed. Pleased, even. It was a pity, almost, he couldn't let the boy kill the Emperor yet. Luke wasn't ready for that, emotionally. There was still a chance Luke would return to his friends if he destroyed the Emperor now. He needed more extensive tutelage, first—training by both Vader and Palpatine—before he'd be ready to assume his place at Vader's right hand, ruling the galaxy. So Vader had to shepherd the boy through periods like this, stop him from doing damage in the wrong places—or in the right places prematurely.
Before Vader could gather his thoughts much further, though, Luke attacked again—much more aggressively. He advanced in a flurry of lunges, each met with a loud crack of Vader's phosphorescent saber. The Dark Lord retreated a step at every slash, swiveling once to bring his cutting beam up viciously—but Luke batted it away, pushing Vader back yet again. The Lord of the Sith momentarily lost his footing on the stairs and tumbled to his knees.
Luke stood above him, at the top of the staircase, heady with his own power. It was in his hands, now, he knew it was: he could take Vader. Take his blade, take his life. Take his place at the Emperor's side. Yes, even that. Luke didn't bury the thought, this time; he gloried in it. He engorged himself with its juices, felt its power tingle his cheeks. It made him feverish, this thought, with lust so overpowering as to totally obliterate all other considerations. 
He had the power; the choice was his. 
And then another thought emerged, slowly compulsive as an ardent lover: he could destroy the Emperor, too. Destroy them both, and rule the galaxy. Avenge and conquer. 
It was a profound moment for Luke. Dizzying. Yet he did not swoon. Nor did he recoil. 
He took one step forward.
For the first time, the thought entered Vader's consciousness that his son might best him. He was astounded by the strength Luke had acquired since their last duel, in the Cloud City—not to mention the boy's timing, which was honed to a thought's-breadth. This was an unexpected circumstance. Unexpected and unwelcome. Vader felt humiliation crawling in on the tail of his first reaction, which was surprise, and his second, which was fear. And then the edge of the humiliation curled up, to reveal bald anger. And now he wanted revenge.
These things were mirrored, each facet, by the young Jedi who now towered above him. The Emperor, watching joyously, saw this, and goaded Luke on to revel in his Darkness. “Use your aggressive feelings, boy! Yes! Let the hate flow through you! Become one with it, let it nourish you!”
Luke faltered a moment—then realized what was happening. He was suddenly confused again. What did he want? What should he do? His brief exultation, his microsecond of dark clarity—gone, now, in a wash of indecision, veiled enigma. Cold awakening from a passionate flirtation. He took a step back, lowered his sword, relaxed, and tried to drive the hatred from his being.
In that instant, Vader attacked. He lunged half up the stairs, forcing Luke to reverse defensively. He bound the boy's blade with his own, but Luke disengaged and leaped to the safety of an overhead gantry. Vader jumped over the railing to the floor beneath the platform on which Luke stood.
“I will not fight you, Father,” Luke stated.
“You are unwise to lower your defenses,” Vader warned. His anger was layered, now—he did not want to win if the boy was not battling to the fullest. But if winning meant he had to kill a boy who wouldn't fight...then he could do that, too. Only he wanted Luke to be aware of those consequences. He wanted Luke to know this was no longer just a game. This was Darkness.

--Taken from Return of the Jedi

Palpatine patted Luke's captured lightsaber as it lay on the arm of his chair, then ordered the Death Star's gunners to fire the station's superlaser at the orbiting Rebel cruisers. With this latest provocation, Luke couldn't help but act. And if he struck out in anger, as Anakin Skywalker had done in a desperate bid to stop Mace Windu, he would be lost to the dark side forever.
At last Luke called the saber to his hand with the Force. Vader was waiting on the downswing, intercepting Luke's green blade before it could bisect Palpatine's head. The Emperor cackled with pleasure, showing a mouthful of ruined teeth.
The battle between Luke and Vader raged throughout the throne room. Vader pressed the attack at every turn, but Luke held back, even ducking beneath a shadowed staircase when the fighting grew too intense. Vader again took the offensive, this time with words. Sensing that his son had been holding back, he attempted a mental probe, and arrived at an inescapable and astonishing deduction. Padme had given birth to twins.
A daughter. He knew nothing about her, but the Skywalker bloodline suggested she would make a suitable apprentice. Perhaps she could provide the missing piece in the fulfillment of Vader's vision, and the two of them could rule the galaxy as father and daughter.
Luke's scream of pure rage stunned Vader. It was all he could do to ward off his son's blows as Luke advanced on him, roiling Force energy leading him like a wave front. Retreating to the dead end of the core shaft railing, Vader cried in shock as Luke severed his wrist, taking his lightsaber with it.

--Taken from Vader: The Ultimate Guide

At best, you could argue that Vader is more powerful in raw destructive power than Luke is, but then, your only source for that is a character statement. I could just as easily show you Cronal's musings where he submits that Luke is already more powerful than Vader. Besides, we saw what happened when Luke ceased to hold back anyway. If he wanted to kill Vader in their last duel, he could have. Luke and Vader are equals in a fight. Their duel proves that very conclusively.
#14 Edited by ToO_RaW (1077 posts) - - Show Bio

Interesting. But yea, when I brought that Lucas saying that stuff up I was only recalling a small portion of what I had read. I don't even remember where I read it to tell you the truth. If anyone could confirm that Lucas said such a thing that would be sweet.

#15 Edited by Phoenix6000 (107 posts) - - Show Bio

It's funny how you cite so many sources yet overlook the most obvious ones. ESB Director's Commentary. For Luke and Palpatine. RotS commentary, Chosen One. For Anakin. "As Darth Vader, he's believed to have eight-tenths the strength of the Emperor.". Want to start quoting EU?

"Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history." (The New Essential Chronology, page 84 )

The Emperor had known it would be thus, of course [that the Rebel Alliance would be troublesome]; the resistance had not been a surprise to him. The Emperor was completely in concert with the dark side of the Force. He was the most powerful Sith who had ever existed." (Death Star, page 76)

"Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known." (Vader: the Ultimate Guide, page 19)

"Palpatine has spent decades studying the most arcane and esoteric Jedi disciplines. It is believed that he has mastered nearly all the known powers, previously unknown powers, and devises new ones at his pleasure"-- The Dark Empire Sourcebook.

"Palpatine has risen from the dead. The most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived had returned." -- (Dark Empire Sourcebook, page 109)

"[The Galactic Emperor] had succeeded where all others failed in taming the Dark Side. He would journey across the universe, spreading the shadow of his rule, blotting out the stars themselves, and taking his Dark Rule to other helpless galaxies."-- The Dark Side Sourcebook.

"Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time."-- The Complete Visual Dictionary, page 72.

Q: Who’s stronger – Darth Bane, Darth Revan or Darth Vader?

A: It’s a tie. - Source: Drew Karpyshyn Website FAQ

Star Wars Insider, Kevin J. Anderson, upon asked if he ever intended his Sith to be stronger than the OT sith: "No. Exar Kun, Naga Sadow and the others are on a firmly lower tier than Emperor Palpatine."

"The Sith Order, in hiding for a millennium, had awaited the birth of one who was powerful enough to return the Order to prominence. Darth Sidious was the fulfillment of that prophecy, capable of exacting the Sith's revenge on the Jedi for having nearly eradicated the practitioners of the dark side of the Force." -- the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia.

"Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chambers, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two entered into a spectacular duel -- a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force's light and dark sides. The Emperor proved too powerful to defeat. Though Yoda held his own for much of the duel, in the end, the Sith bested him. He realized that directly confronting the Sith would be doomed to failure. Defeated, Yoda slinked away into the shadows of the Senate chamber's cavernous depths, leaping into a waiting getaway speeder piloted by Bail Organa." ~ Leland Chee

Fun fact. Chee's word is every bit as credible as Lucas', due to him being in charge of all EU material and keeping it in-line with G-canon. You like to pretend you know so much about EU, but didn't even realize where Lucas' very own quotes were located. Laughable indeed.

Appreciate how you also brought up Maul's alleged enhancements. Vader dueled evenly when Maul was using his preferred style and weapon, it was only after Vader cut Maul's saberstaff and he switched to Jar Kai that Vader had difficulty defending himself. Based on your own assessments, that would mean the genuine Maul is greatly inferior to Vader. lol Oh yes, the duel with the doppelganger takes place in 0BBY, sometime before the events of ANH. Vader is at his peak throughout the main sequence of TFU & TFU2, as well as during the OT. He has had two decades to study the dark side, under the tutelage of Palpatine the most powerful sith lord of all time.

In your face. I have now officially proven you wrong. But if you're still upset feel free to come spout your hot garbage on the official TOR forums, pal. The real experts over there will tell you the exact same thing and let you know precisely why you're wrong. Unlike you they've actually taken GL's statements into account, just like every real SW fan. I'm sorry you had to hear that your hero Revan isn't the best, but unfortunately the lore speaks for itself. Don't try to argue with the canon, you won't win. Feel like getting proven wrong again? I'll be waiting right here with the rest of the experts:

http://www.swtor.com/community/forumdisplay.php?f=251

The rest of what you said is irrelevant due to this being a film-only discussion. Vader's reaction feats > Maul's. Force Choke = GG

Discussions over, but you're welcome to try and save face and salvage your dignity if you like. Either way, you still lost and are no longer worthy of my attention. =)

Lucas & Chee's word > your deluded opinion.

#16 Posted by ToO_RaW (1077 posts) - - Show Bio

Holy. I wish I knew enough about SW to help out here.

Still, it's useless to even mention the EU because the OP says no EU

:)

#17 Posted by dccomicsrule2011 (23385 posts) - - Show Bio

@Phoenix6000: I hate to stick my nose where it does not belong but where did Silver say Revan was better then Papatine? Do you know that Silver is comicvines resident Star Wars expert? You did not debunk anything Silver said.

#18 Edited by Phoenix6000 (107 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm aware of his position as the resident expert, that's why I've been following him so when I come across others who aren't as knowledgeable I could refer back to his posts for easier source quoting. But it seems he isn't as well-versed as I originally believed, hence why I won't be paying him or his future replies any attention.

lol And the Revan remark was just an off-topic stab at Revanites, since they're the ones who usually deny established canon to hype their virtual barbie up to ludicrous proportions.

#19 Posted by SavageDragon (2248 posts) - - Show Bio

Based on movie feats I would have to say Maul but if this is a flat out fight we all know that Vader is wayy stronger in the force than Maul. I will say Vader in an awesome fight.

#20 Edited by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@Phoenix6000 said:

@Silver2467

It's funny how you cite so many sources yet overlook the most obvious ones. ESB Director's Commentary. For Luke and Palpatine. RotS commentary, Chosen One. For Anakin. "As Darth Vader, he's believed to have eight-tenths the strength of the Emperor."

I have listened to the TESB and the RotS commentaries before, and Lucas offered no such comments. I have no idea where you drew this quote from, but it definitely was not either of the commentaries you attribute it to. Unless you have a youtube clip or some other substantial evidence, your account of what information precisely is featured in those commentaries is no more or less concrete than mine is. The fact remains, Lucas has never, under any circumstances, said that Luke is the most powerful Jedi, that Palpatine is the most powerful Sith, or that Vader is 80% of Palpatine. Call it arguing from silence if you want, but I have been looking for proof of this assertion for a couple years and have been presented with none. The only comment I have found is this, and this is not at all what your sources portended. All this is is a statement on Luke and Anakin's Force potential, not their achieved Force power.

He's not Satan, he just goes down to the corner and gets Satan's cigarettes.
You got it. And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting of his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor—he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that.

--Taken from Rolling Stone #975

Want to start quoting EU?

Where did this red herring come from? I asked you for proof of Lucas' supposed quotes on Luke, Vader, or Palpatine's ranking respective of potency with the Force. The EU is altogether tangential from my request. The only conclusion I can reach as to why this deflection arose is that you have a predisposed idea of my opinion on who the most powerful characters in Star Wars are, in which case, I would ask now that you kindly desist presuming on the nature of my outlook.

"Palpatine has risen from the dead. The most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived had returned." - - (Dark Empire Sourcebook, page 109)

Did you even check these citations in the sourcebook itself? This quote does not exist. Page 109 of the Dark Empire Sourcebook is a scan of a page from the Dark Empire comic series depicting a World Devastator on Mon Calamari. Palpatine was never referred to as a Sith Lord until the release of the PT; before then, he was simply a dark sider, primarily in the vein of a sorcerer. In fact, the Dark Empire Sourcebook refers to him as a Dark Jedi, not a Sith Lord because at the time, the Emperor was not intended to be a Sith, just a supreme dark side adept. 
  
If you want a more thorough citation regarding Palpatine's status as the most powerful Sith, I would defer you here.

Q: Who’s stronger – Darth Bane, Darth Revan or Darth Vader?

A: It’s a tie. - Source: Drew Karpyshyn Website FAQ

This isn't really related to what you presume my opinion to be, is it? I hope not.
 

Star Wars Insider, Kevin J. Anderson, upon asked if he ever intended his Sith to be stronger than the OT sith: "No. Exar Kun, Naga Sadow and the others are on a firmly lower tier than Emperor Palpatine."

I have seen this quote before, but can you list an exact issue number for this? Just an Insider issue is too vague. There over a hundred Insider issues. I would like to add this to my list of sources for Palpatine if this is an authentic citation.
 

"Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chambers, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two entered into a spectacular duel -- a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force's light and dark sides. The Emperor proved too powerful to defeat. Though Yoda held his own for much of the duel, in the end, the Sith bested him. He realized that directly confronting the Sith would be doomed to failure. Defeated, Yoda slinked away into the shadows of the Senate chamber's cavernous depths, leaping into a waiting getaway speeder piloted by Bail Organa." ~ Leland Chee

This is not a quote from Leland Chee; this is a quote from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chamber, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two engaged in a spectacular duel—a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force’s light and dark sides.

--Taken from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, Volume III pg. 356

Fun fact. Chee's word is every bit as credible as Lucas', due to him being in charge of all EU material and keeping it in-line with G-canon. You like to pretend you know so much about EU, but didn't even realize where Lucas' very own quotes were located. Laughable indeed.

Excuse me? I have read through Chee's blog archives before. Thank you for adopting sufficient pretension to inform me of a fact I was already well aware of. 
 

Appreciate how you also brought up Maul's alleged enhancements. Vader dueled evenly when Maul was using his preferred style and weapon, it was only after Vader cut Maul's saberstaff and he switched to Jar Kai that Vader had difficulty defending himself.

Maul was employing Jar'Kai the entire time, and Maul also connected more blows than Vader did. His reverting to a twin-blade combative stance after Vader bisected his saber's hilt only propelled Maul's advantage. 
 

Vader is at his peak throughout the main sequence of TFU & TFU2, as well as during the OT.

Wrong. Vader reached the pinnacle of his powers in Return of the Jedi.

Lord Vader did not mind waiting, though, nor was even aware of it. For it was an honor, and a noble activity, to kneel a this ruler's feet. He kept his eyes inward, seeking reflection in his own bottomless core. His power was great, now, greater than it had ever been. It shimmered from within, and resonated with the waves of darkness that flowed from the Emperor. He felt engorged with this power, it surged like black fire, demon electrons looking for ground...but he would wait. For his Emperor was not ready; and his son was not ready, and the time was not yet. So he waited.

--Taken from Return of the Jedi

In your face.

LOL. I would flag this for trolling if not for the ineptitude of the comment.

But if you're still upset feel free to come spout your hot garbage on the official TOR forums, pal. The real experts over there

I used to be one of those experts on the TOR forums, son. I left when the forum rebooted and a couple of what few of the respectable users there were disappeared. In hindsight, during my time wasted there, there were really only a few knowledgeable users, but from what I was told, I arrived there at a time when there was an inordinate amount of fanboys populating the forums. So that could have just been my poor timing. It was insightful enough of an experience to know not to waste my time there again though. 
 

let you know precisely why you're wrong.

Let me know why I'm wrong about what? You literally entered a paroxysmal tirade about a strawman you formulated in your own head. I asked you where Lucas himself, separate entirely from material stemming from the EU, exposited on Luke, Vader, or the Emperor's powers, and you reply with an ad hominem rant. With that said, if you spend all your time on the TOR forums, I suppose I can understand where your preconceived notions sprung from, but this is CV, friend. You should identify the difference. Granted, many here are as ignorant of EU canon as you invectively and presumptuously raved that I must be. But as it stands, I suggest you direct your misguided antagonism elsewhere. I'm not swallowing that tripe.
 

I'm sorry you had to hear that your hero Revan isn't the best

You mean you were going where I thought you were? You actually thought I was a fanboy of Revan? 
 
....
 
ROTFLMMFAO. Look at my posting history here. This is quite possibly the least feasible and most spurious attempt at attacking my credibility you could ever choose. I have been an active poster on this site for a few years, and throughout those few years, I have been dismantling the notion of Revan's invincibility practically from the beginning.
http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/revan-vs-asajj-ventress/728618/
http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/darth-revan-vs-any-other-sith/598792/
http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/revan-vs-darth-sidious/380176/
http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/mace-windueu-vs-revan/661537/
http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/darth-revan-vs-grand-master-luke/548231/
http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/papatine-count-dooku-anakin-vs-yoda-mace-windu-obi-wan/664415/
http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/revan-vs-anakin-skywalker/664438/?page=1

but unfortunately the lore speaks for itself.

Indeed it does, which is why I have gone out of my way to establish what lore dictates throughout these forums.
http://www.comicvine.com/forums/gen-discussion/1/in-the-star-wars-universe-who-is-more-powerful-than-yoda/691367/
http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/all-out-fight-who-is-the-most-powerful-sith-ever/547875/
http://www.comicvine.com/myvine/silver2467/posted-by-canon/87-78595/

Feel like getting proven wrong again? I'll be waiting right here with the rest of the experts:

http://www.swtor.com/community/forumdisplay.php?f=251

Now, this I will flag for obvious baiting.

The rest of what you said is irrelevant due to this being a film-only discussion.

You would recall that you were the one who referenced EU sources with respects to Vader's powers; I simply corrected you and asked for a source for your citation of Lucas' remarks. 
 

Discussions over, but you're welcome to try and save face and salvage your dignity if you like. Either way, you still lost and are no longer worthy of my attention. =)

Lucas & Chee's word > your deluded opinion.

Far be it from me to emulate Spike, but: Cool story, bro.
#21 Edited by JakeN7 (11257 posts) - - Show Bio

@Phoenix6000 said:

Lucas said Luke became THE most powerful jedi to exist after RotJ. Vader is 80% of Palpatine, who is canonically the most powerful sith lord of all time.

Where does that number come from? Just curious...

@Silver2467 @Phoenix6000: Revan is my favorite character, but I don't think he's the strongest. Why do you guys not like Revan?

#22 Edited by Phoenix6000 (107 posts) - - Show Bio

I have listened to the TESB and the RotS commentaries before, and Lucas offered no such comments. I have no idea where you drew this quote from, but it definitely was not either of the commentaries you attribute it to. Unless you have a youtube clip or some other substantial evidence, your account of what information precisely is featured in those commentaries is no more or less concrete than mine is. The fact remains, Lucas has never, under any circumstances, said that Luke is the most powerful Jedi, that Palpatine is the most powerful Sith, or that Vader is 80% of Palpatine.

LMAO Now I know you're trolling. Especially when a quick Google search will bring up the 80% quote. Just because you're lazy and can't be bothered to pop in your ESB and RotS dvds and listen to the commentary is by no means an excuse to say they don't exist. I am very disappointed, doubly so since you claimed to be an expert, but refuse to acknowledge Lucas' very own word.

used to be one of those experts on the TOR forums, son. I left when the forum rebooted and a couple of what few of the respectable users there were disappeared. In hindsight, during my time wasted there, there were really only a few knowledgeable users, but from what I was told, I arrived there at a time when there was an inordinate amount of fanboys populating the forums. So that could have just been my poor timing. It was insightful enough of an experience to know not to waste my time there again though.

Translation: You were proven wrong by someone else and decided to retreat. Again, your lack of canon proves you aren't nearly as well-versed as previously believed. Not exactly wise to call yourself an 'expert' when you can't even accept when the highest authorities in all of SW come in and tell you you're wrong.

Unable to debase any of my claims? Strike one. Unable to accept G-canon and Lucas's direct quotes from the film extras? Strike two. Challenging the established canon and official guidebooks, which reinforce and support succeeding G-canon? Strike three.

I do believe that spells game over for you and thoroughly outs you for what you are. Problem, troll? =)

Lucas himself stated Vader has 80% of Palpatine's power. This is said by Lucas in the Episode III DVD commentary and anyone with an IQ score above 9 can find it using a simple Google search, something has shown he is incapable of doing.

#23 Edited by JamesKM716 (1992 posts) - - Show Bio
I used to be one of those experts on the TOR forums, son. I left when the forum rebooted and a couple of what few of the respectable users there were disappeared.

Loved that one. Silver :)

@Phoenix6000 said:

Unable to debase any of my claims? Strike one.

Unable to accept G-canon and Lucas's direct quotes from the film extras? Strike two. Challenging the established canon and official guidebooks, which reinforce and support succeeding G-canon? Strike three.

I do believe that spells game over for you and thoroughly outs you for what you are. Problem, troll? =)

1. You didn't really make any claims.

2. He accepted the quotes, never challenged them, simply pointed out that they didn't matter since this thread isn't about the EU

3. He never challenged established canon.

And honestly Phoenix, challenging Silver is a bad idea. He know more about Star Wars than anybody else i've seen on ComicVine.

#24 Edited by Phoenix6000 (107 posts) - - Show Bio

@JamesKM716 said:

I used to be one of those experts on the TOR forums, son. I left when the forum rebooted and a couple of what few of the respectable users there were disappeared.

Loved that one. Silver :)

@Phoenix6000 said:

Unable to debase any of my claims? Strike one.

Unable to accept G-canon and Lucas's direct quotes from the film extras? Strike two. Challenging the established canon and official guidebooks, which reinforce and support succeeding G-canon? Strike three.

I do believe that spells game over for you and thoroughly outs you for what you are. Problem, troll? =)

1. You didn't really make any claims.

2. He accepted the quotes, never challenged them, simply pointed out that they didn't matter since this thread isn't about the EU

3. He never challenged established canon.

And honestly Phoenix, challenging Silver is a bad idea. He know more about Star Wars than anybody else i've seen on ComicVine.

He challenged established canon the moment he claimed Palps and Luke were not the strongest. I provided the quotes, he was unable to disprove them, therefore he and his opinion is wrong. Therefore his 'expertise' is no longer valid.

#25 Edited by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@Phoenix6000: What happened to not replying to me? 
 

LMAO Now I know you're trolling. Especially when a quick Google search will bring up the 80% quote. Just because you're lazy and can't be bothered to pop in your ESB and RotS dvds and listen to the commentary is by no means an excuse to say they don't exist. I am very disappointed, doubly so since you claimed to be an expert, but refuse to acknowledge Lucas' very own word.

Better idea: Instead of appealing to popularity, why don't you show me concrete proof of Lucas' statements. For instance, here is the Chosen One featurette from RotS. Lucas never says anything about Vader's powers here as being eight tenths of Palpatine's.
  
 
I could not possibly care less what quotes you think you found. Users will constantly claim that "Lucas said this..." as an attempt to end an argument. It's a fan myth within Star Wars forums that Lucas had any remarks whatsoever to the effect that Luke is the most powerful Jedi, Palpatine is the most powerful Sith Lord, and Vader possess 80% of Palpatine's power. The statement simply does not exist. Lucas never said that. There is no quotes of that in the RotS commentary, and there is no quote of that in the TESB commentary. I have looked for them myself, and they were not there.

Translation: You were proven wrong by someone else and decided to retreat. Again, your lack of canon proves you aren't nearly as well-versed as previously believed. Not exactly wise to call yourself an 'expert' when you can't even accept when the highest authorities in all of SW come in and tell you you're wrong.

Unable to debase any of my claims? Strike one. Unable to accept G-canon and Lucas's direct quotes from the film extras? Strike two. Challenging the established canon and official guidebooks, which reinforce and support succeeding G-canon? Strike three.

I do believe that spells game over for you and thoroughly outs you for what you are. Problem, troll? =)

Flagged again. 
 

He challenged established canon the moment he claimed Palps and Luke were not the strongest.

What is your infatuation with strawman arguments? I never once said that Luke or Palpatine were not the most powerful characters of their adherent aspects of the Force; in fact, I provided more sources that prove they are than you did, if you bothered to follow the links I posted. I asked you to prove that Lucas said they were, a question that remains thoroughly unanswered.
@Silver2467  said: 

Show me a direct quote from Lucas that confirms this, because as yet, it's dubious that this alleged assessment on character power levels from Lucas even exists. People constantly purport that Lucas verified Luke, Vader, or Palpatine's powers in this way but never present a source. I want to see clear evidential criteria for this claim. 

@Silver2467  said: 

Where did this red herring come from? I asked you for proof of Lucas' supposed quotes on Luke, Vader, or Palpatine's ranking respective of potency with the Force. The EU is altogether tangential from my request. The only conclusion I can reach as to why this deflection arose is that you have a predisposed idea of my opinion on who the most powerful characters in Star Wars are, in which case, I would ask now that you kindly desist presuming on the nature of my outlook.
  
If you want a more thorough citation regarding Palpatine's status as the most powerful Sith, I would defer you here.
 
Let me know why I'm wrong about what? You literally entered a paroxysmal tirade about a strawman you formulated in your own head. I asked you where Lucas himself, separate entirely from material stemming from the EU, exposited on Luke, Vader, or the Emperor's powers, and you reply with an ad hominem rant.
Indeed it does, which is why I have gone out of my way to establish what lore dictates throughout these forums.
http://www.comicvine.com/forums/gen-discussion/1/in-the-star-wars-universe-who-is-more-powerful-than-yoda/691367/
http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/all-out-fight-who-is-the-most-powerful-sith-ever/547875/
http://www.comicvine.com/myvine/silver2467/posted-by-canon/87-78595/

#26 Posted by JamesKM716 (1992 posts) - - Show Bio

@Phoenix6000 said:

He challenged established canon the moment he claimed Palps and Luke were not the strongest. I provided the quotes, he was unable to disprove them, therefore he and his opinion is wrong. Therefore his 'expertise' is no longer valid.

Please enlighten me. Post a quote of him claiming Palpatine and Luke were not the strongest, i read through the thread. He never did that.

What he said, was that he had never seen the quote that Anakin was 80% of Palpatine.

He requested a YouTube video of the commentaries where Lucas says that. Because you declined to do that, the implication would eb tath you are incorrect. Post a YouTube proof of it please.

#27 Edited by Phoenix6000 (107 posts) - - Show Bio

LOL You must not have the original Episode 3 DVD. It is stated quote: "As Darth Vader, he was believed to have roughtly eight-tenths the strength of the Emperor. Had he not received any of the injuries on Mustafar, he would have been twice as powerful as the Emperor."

I could not possibly care less what quotes you think you found.

Translation: You can't disprove any of the canon references I've made and are therefore acknowledging you have inferior knowledge. You're also acknowledging that you don't accept Lucas and Chee's word, who have much higher authority than you. I've reiterated their words and you can't disprove it. =) Keep trying troll, you can't win against G-canon.

The comment isn't available on Youtube, I would have to pull out my copy of RotS and watch the extras.

#28 Posted by JamesKM716 (1992 posts) - - Show Bio

@Phoenix6000 said:

The comment isn't available on Youtube, I would have to pull out my copy of RotS and watch the extras.

I thought the comment you were refering to was from Return of the Jedi, that's what you said earlier.

#29 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@Phoenix6000 said:

@Silver2467

LOL You must not have the original Episode 3 DVD. It is stated quote: "As Darth Vader, he was believed to have roughtly eight-tenths the strength of the Emperor. Had he not received any of the injuries on Mustafar, he would have been twice as powerful as the Emperor."

As a matter of fact, it says nothing of the kind. I have listened to the RotS commentary before; there is no such quote. If there is, why don't you be so kind as to tell me during which scene of the commentary this supposed statement is made? And I am not blind to your obscurantism pertaining to the featurette I showed you; you submitted that Lucas offered this comment on Vader's powers in the Chosen One featurette when the veracity of that claim is, as demonstrable with the clip posted, wrong.
#30 Posted by Phoenix6000 (107 posts) - - Show Bio

Still incorrect, but I'll say this. I may have cited the wrong featurette. I will watch the Episode III extras later. Until then the quote still stands. Sorry to say, but trolls like you don't get to win, nor do you get to decide what is and isn't canon. =) You've yet to disprove all my EU quotes, ergo Luke and Palps remain the most powerful.

#31 Posted by JamesKM716 (1992 posts) - - Show Bio

@Phoenix6000 said:

Still incorrect, but I'll say this. I may have cited the wrong featurette. I will watch the Episode III extras later. Until then the quote still stands. Sorry to say, but trolls like you don't get to win, nor do you get to decide what is and isn't canon. =) You've yet to disprove all my EU quotes, ergo Luke and Palps remain the most powerful.

The quote can't stand until you show actual proof of the quote.

#32 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@Phoenix6000 said:

I may have cited the wrong featurette.

You don't say?

I will watch the Episode III extras later.

Do that. If you find what you were looking for, please show it to me; in fact if you can (which is doubtful), please prove me wrong. I have been waiting for someone to post conclusive proof on this subject for a long time.
 

Until then the quote still stands.

Not at all. The quote is not properly cited, nor is it anywhere to be found in the sections of the commentary you claimed it was from. It substantiates nothing because it never came from what you so adamantly argued it did. 
 

Sorry to say, but trolls like you don't get to win, nor do you get to decide what is and isn't canon.

You've yet to disprove all my EU quotes, ergo Luke and Palps remain the most powerful.

I don't even...
#33 Posted by God_Spawn (37382 posts) - - Show Bio

@Phoenix6000: I don't exactly see where Silver is trolling. He's asking for proof which you are failing to provide on certain points and instead are calling him a troll which does count as insulting. So please stop.

Moderator
#34 Posted by JamesKM716 (1992 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn said:

@Phoenix6000: I don't exactly see where Silver is trolling. He's asking for proof which you are failing to provide on certain points and instead are calling him a troll which does count as insulting. So please stop.

*like

#35 Edited by Mrfactual (1 posts) - - Show Bio

Vader commands force with every move. He was bested by Obi. Obi killed maul. Maul best a form 4 Jedi master. Obi is best form 2 duelist ever. Vader killed the Count. Moral of the story is anyone can best anyone even without force powers. Obi is a weak force user. But a master of the saber defense. I would assume vader in return of Jedi is most powerful version considering obi was bested due to lack of force and age. I think maul was cool but duel light sabers are not as quick or effective as a single. Also one saber can take 3 at once just look at the emperper kill those Jedi fast.

#36 Edited by ShootingNova (15721 posts) - - Show Bio

@mrfactual: Just about all of that is EU. The OP just specified the EU is not included in this thread.

#37 Edited by Lobo11 (33 posts) - - Show Bio

They fought already. Vader won hardly

#38 Edited by Erkan12 (2469 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump,

Movie Maul probably wins.

@silver2467 said:

Vader's already defeated a clone of Maul in the EU as well.

and Maul appeared to be enhanced by the dark side miasma permeating the fortress Vader confronted him in, based on Vader's instant recognition of the place's dark side ambiance, Maul's protracted tenure in that place, and the fact that Maul achieved feats he otherwise would be incapable of (such as damaging Vader's armor with unarmed melee strikes).

I read the resurrection many time, and I didn't see anything like this. Kalakar Six was strong with the dark side, but that does not make Maul or anyone stronger. No one (Vader, Maul or prophets) said something like that.
@mrfactual said:

Vader commands force with every move. He was bested by Obi. Obi killed maul. Maul best a form 4 Jedi master. Obi is best form 2 duelist ever. Vader killed the Count. Moral of the story is anyone can best anyone even without force powers. Obi is a weak force user. But a master of the saber defense. I would assume vader in return of Jedi is most powerful version considering obi was bested due to lack of force and age. I think maul was cool but duel light sabers are not as quick or effective as a single. Also one saber can take 3 at once just look at the emperper kill those Jedi fast.

That because Maul thought duel was over and Obi-Wan was unarmed (also forgot Qui-Gon's lightsaber). Because of Maul's overconfident, Obi bested him. (You can even say Maul was an idiot but not because he was incompetent) Maul already proved that he was stronger than Obi-Wan's master Qui-Gon and bloodlusted Obi-Wan himself.