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#101 Posted by Precise (22883 posts) - - Show Bio
@Tank.: (just using numbers to show the alinea :p)
 
1. Good point, there's no way of telling this. But even if Dooku's body requires more force, he has the better control of the force to do so. 
 
2. True, but if we look at it that way I could also say that Maul was defeated by Obi-Wan who was still a padawan at the time. While Dooku defeated the Jedi Knight (or was it master..) Obi-Wan twice. And Dooku might have not seen much combat at the beginning of his training but he more than made up for it after he left the order and worked for sidious. 
 
3. I wouldn't say a more convenient one. He was incredibly powerful and skilled. More so than other dark jedi at the time or sidious would have gone after them. 
 
4. Maul is incredibly skilled, I already admitted that one. I just pointed out the fact that was (part of) the reason he managed to get the upper hand on Qui-Gon. Seeing as afterwards he underestimated his opponent in Obi-Wan. Taunting him instead of actually attacking. And that is also one of his weaknesses, his arrogance. 
 
5. But not on the level as Dooku.
#102 Posted by theiconic (924 posts) - - Show Bio

sidious.....wins  hands down......sidious took down 3 jedi masters in under 20 secs. 3 really great jedi masters                                      ( Agen kolar, stasa li.kitt fisto)..took maul many mins like more than 10 to beat qui-gon...then he lost to an apprentice..no way he's taking Darth Sidious




#103 Edited by Kinasin (1083 posts) - - Show Bio
@Apparition said:
"

darth maul isnt even close to vader. vader would have killed maul. of all the sith in the movies 1-3 maul was the weakest one.

"
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Darth Sidious sends a force bolt through his peehole, at which point it concentrates up into his head for a BOOM HEADSHOT that shakes the very foundation of the cosmos.........
#104 Posted by Tank. (2063 posts) - - Show Bio
@Precise:  Works for me.
 
1) So they would then be on even terms once more. 
2) Maul was defeated by Obi-wan because he got cocky. I know it's the excuse used a thousand times. But look at it. He sat there gloating from above when he could of easily finished him off. He saw Qui-gon as the threat and that's why he took him seriously. Once the master was dispatched and he had the fight 'won' he toyed with his pray. Which is what allowed OB1 to slice and dice Maul
3) Convenient because Sidious would not have to train another person scratch like he did Maul. He had a powerful figure that he could easily manipulate. To me that is a big convenience.
4) As mentioned with 2, his arrogance only showed against what he thought to be a inferior opponent. Pray he thought easy. Otherwise he would combat them with respect and treat them as a threat. There is a passage somewhere which details it simiraly. I can try and track it down tonight if you like. Dooku would have his respect, so I don't see him treating the fight like he did with OB1, but treating it how he did against Qui-gon.
#105 Posted by Precise (22883 posts) - - Show Bio

1. Besides the force usage of course.
2. And the cocky attitude is his downfall. Dooku isn't that cocky, he's careful and thinks his tactics through while Maul is more impulsive. Maul was trained by sidious to listen to his anger and rage in combat while Dooku has his jedi training to fall back on.
3. Exactly, he did not see the need to train someone new because he saw the skills in Dooku. 
4. Even with his fight against Darth Vader he was arrogant and cocky, that's hardly an inferior combatant. (this is how i remember it from the comic, i don't have it currently to look at). And Dooku never underestimates his opponent, and he won't against Maul. I still can't see Maul winning this fight.

#106 Posted by Decoy Elite (30041 posts) - - Show Bio
@Kinasin said:
" @Apparition said:
"

darth maul isnt even close to vader. vader would have killed maul. of all the sith in the movies 1-3 maul was the weakest one.

"
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Darth Sidious sends a force bolt through his peehole, at which point it concentrates up into his head for a BOOM HEADSHOT that shakes the very foundation of the cosmos......... "
In the EU Darth Maul is by far one of(if not) the best duelist in Star Wars. He was severally nerfed in the movies and killed off by plot. As for that other stuff.......gross. 
#107 Posted by theiconic (924 posts) - - Show Bio
@Decoy Elite: agreed
#108 Posted by Decoy Elite (30041 posts) - - Show Bio

Just want to mention I'm not saying Maul wins, I'm just saying he's not some punk who's easy to beat in a duel.

#109 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@Decoy Elite said: 
In the EU Darth Maul is by far one of(if not) the best duelist in Star Wars. He was severally nerfed in the movies and killed off by plot. As for that other stuff.......gross.  "
What are you basing this on? I have read EU material involving Maul, and I would not even put him in the top 10 greatest lightsaber duelists. I agree that he is severely underrated and lowballed for his circumstantial defeat at Obi-Wan's hands, but he was by no means the greatest lightsaber duelists in Star Wars, G-Canon or C-Canon. 
 
To the thread, Sidious wins this effortlessly. There is absolutely no case that can be made for Maul winning this. 
#110 Posted by Decoy Elite (30041 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silver2467 said:
" @Decoy Elite said: 
In the EU Darth Maul is by far one of(if not) the best duelist in Star Wars. He was severally nerfed in the movies and killed off by plot. As for that other stuff.......gross.  "
What are you basing this on? I have read EU material involving Maul, and I would not even put him in the top 10 greatest lightsaber duelists. I agree that he is severely underrated and lowballed for his circumstantial defeat at Obi-Wan's hands, but he was by no means the greatest lightsaber duelists in Star Wars, G-Canon or C-Canon.  To the thread, Sidious wins this effortlessly. There is absolutely no case that can be made for Maul winning this.  "
I thought a program of Maul was able to defeat Vader(who's a good duelist) but I dare not argue against you as you know a lot more about this stuff than I do. (Basically I thought you or JediXman mentioned it at some point, I must have been mistaken). 
#111 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@Decoy Elite said:
" @Silver2467 said:
" @Decoy Elite said: 
In the EU Darth Maul is by far one of(if not) the best duelist in Star Wars. He was severally nerfed in the movies and killed off by plot. As for that other stuff.......gross.  "
What are you basing this on? I have read EU material involving Maul, and I would not even put him in the top 10 greatest lightsaber duelists. I agree that he is severely underrated and lowballed for his circumstantial defeat at Obi-Wan's hands, but he was by no means the greatest lightsaber duelists in Star Wars, G-Canon or C-Canon.  To the thread, Sidious wins this effortlessly. There is absolutely no case that can be made for Maul winning this.  "
I thought a program of Maul was able to defeat Vader(who's a good duelist) but I dare not argue against you as you know a lot more about this stuff than I do. (Basically I thought you or JediXman mentioned it at some point, I must have been mistaken).  "
A clone of Maul was created by Sidious in order to test Vader, but Vader defeated it. I do appreciate you mentioning that Maul is not as pathetic as people make him out to be though. He is extremely formidable, but he is not comparable to Sidious. 
#112 Posted by Random Bucket (539 posts) - - Show Bio

Sidious>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>......Maul. Maul is no pathetic weakling but comparing him to Sidious makes him look like one especially if this EU versions of themselves.

#113 Posted by Tank. (2063 posts) - - Show Bio
@Precise said:
" 1. Besides the force usage of course. 2. And the cocky attitude is his downfall. Dooku isn't that cocky, he's careful and thinks his tactics through while Maul is more impulsive. Maul was trained by sidious to listen to his anger and rage in combat while Dooku has his jedi training to fall back on.3. Exactly, he did not see the need to train someone new because he saw the skills in Dooku.  4. Even with his fight against Darth Vader he was arrogant and cocky, that's hardly an inferior combatant. (this is how i remember it from the comic, i don't have it currently to look at). And Dooku never underestimates his opponent, and he won't against Maul. I still can't see Maul winning this fight. "
1) K
2) o.O? Dooku is very cocky and sure of himself. The novel adaptions of the movies make that very clear. I would say that Dooku is even more arrogant than what Maul was.
3) I think we look at that completely different. Sidous saw someone who could easily be manipulated to fill the hole he now had for his plans and took it. 
4) Dooku completely underestimated his opponents and always viewed them as inferior. Again the novel adaptions make that very clear. Especially the fight at the start where Dooku dies in the 3rd episode.
#114 Posted by ssejllenrad (12847 posts) - - Show Bio

Maul wins cause he's got mutant powers like elongating tongue and spitting slime and the likes! Plus he's played by Ray Park and Ray Park played Chuck Norris in The Legend of Bruce Lee and we all know Chuck beats any Sith any day of the week! :D Ehehehehe! 
 
This thread is spite. Seriously, why was this bumped?

#115 Posted by Tank. (2063 posts) - - Show Bio
@ssejllenrad said:
" This thread is spite. Seriously, why was this bumped? "
Because we have derailed the thread into a different topic. Everyone seems to be in agreement that Sidious would take Maul.
#116 Posted by RoosterCogburn (209 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm a little late on this. But.
Palpatine would OWN Maul.
Very badly.

#117 Posted by Precise (22883 posts) - - Show Bio
@Tank.: Alrighty, that doesn't like something we're going to agree on. Because i don't feel Dooku is as cocky as Maul. But i think we kinda debated all we could and coming down to the same old things so let's recap. I've tried looking at their lightsaber fighting styles, but its pretty clear that there won't be a severe advantage in those areas. Now, the point I keep coming back to is that Dooku clearly is the better force user as he demonstrated various times in canon movies, comics and stories. I'm not saying Maul is a slouch in that department but he's not on the level as Dooku. Their physical attributes can be enhanced by the force so even if Dooku has an older body, he can still boost it so i don't see their physical state as an issue. 
 
Besides that, you've brought up the point that Dooku was trained in an era where there wasn't as much war and that his lightsaber battles with Yoda and Mace were therefore not in a combat situation. But this is battle is basically a spar between the two, Dooku vs Maul. How is that so much different from a sparring match other than Maul being more vicious? And Mace WIndu's fighting style is all about being aggresive. 
 
You bring up the point that Dooku was a mere pawn. Yet the general concensus on forums and wiki's (i know it's not a reliable source of info) is that Maul got replaced with a better/superior apprentice. You make it seem like, that even though Dooku was concidered one of the best lightsaber duelist by various jedi, even masters from the council (who have seen war btw), he isn't up to the standard of Maul which I highly disagree with. I believe Dooku has more than the capability to hold his own against Maul in pure lightsaber combat, couple that with his incredible force power usage and skill + experience and we have a clear winner in this battle. 
 
@Tank. said:
" @ssejllenrad said:
" This thread is spite. Seriously, why was this bumped? "
Because we have derailed the thread into a different topic. Everyone seems to be in agreement that Sidious would take Maul. "
That, we're just having a friendly debate about other force characters. This seemed like a suitable place for it =)
#118 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@Precise: You are having a debate about Tyranus vs Maul?
#119 Posted by Precise (22883 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silver2467: Yup
#120 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@Precise: I am too lazy to read through the entire thread. How did a thread involving Sidious and Maul come to Tyranus?
#121 Posted by Precise (22883 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silver2467:  Because the answer between Sidious and Maul was obvious :P Tank said Maul was underrated, i said i agreed. He said he could even argue the fact that he could beat Dooku. Is said 'i don't know about that' ..... and tadaa! xD
#122 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@Precise said:
" @Silver2467:  Because the answer between Sidious and Maul was obvious :P   
This is true. 
 
Tank said Maul was underrated, i said i agreed. He said he could even argue the fact that he could beat Dooku. Is said 'i don't know about that' ..... and tadaa! xD "
I agree that Maul is underrated also. People tend to blow his defeat by Obi-Wan greatly out of proportion, completely ignoring the fact that Maul killed Qui-Gon and, technically speaking, defeated Obi-Wan. I have also read EU works involving Maul, which only demonstrate his abilities at greater levels, but I in no way believe that Maul could defeat Tyranus. 
#123 Posted by Precise (22883 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silver2467:  To be fair, Maul also beat Qui-Gon because Qui-Gon couldn't utilize his lightsaber technique properly in an enclosed space. And besides that, Dooku defeated Obi twice as a jedi master.
#124 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@Precise said:
" @Silver2467:  To be fair, Maul also beat Qui-Gon because Qui-Gon couldn't utilize his lightsaber technique properly in an enclosed space. 
Where was this stated? 
 
And besides that, Dooku defeated Obi twice as a jedi master. "
Agreed. That on its own should be proof enough. Although, in all fairness, Obi-Wan did presumably utilize Dark Rage against Maul after Maul killed Qui-Gon, but regardless, Tyranus simply has greater showings. 
#125 Posted by Tank. (2063 posts) - - Show Bio
@Precise said:
"Alrighty, that doesn't like something we're going to agree on. Because i don't feel Dooku is as cocky as Maul. But i think we kinda debated all we could and coming down to the same old things so let's recap. I've tried looking at their lightsaber fighting styles, but its pretty clear that there won't be a severe advantage in those areas. Now, the point I keep coming back to is that Dooku clearly is the better force user as he demonstrated various times in canon movies, comics and stories. I'm not saying Maul is a slouch in that department but he's not on the level as Dooku. Their physical attributes can be enhanced by the force so even if Dooku has an older body, he can still boost it so i don't see their physical state as an issue. 
 
Besides that, you've brought up the point that Dooku was trained in an era where there wasn't as much war and that his lightsaber battles with Yoda and Mace were therefore not in a combat situation. But this is battle is basically a spar between the two, Dooku vs Maul. How is that so much different from a sparring match other than Maul being more vicious? And Mace WIndu's fighting style is all about being aggresive. 
 
You bring up the point that Dooku was a mere pawn. Yet the general concensus on forums and wiki's (i know it's not a reliable source of info) is that Maul got replaced with a better/superior apprentice. You make it seem like, that even though Dooku was concidered one of the best lightsaber duelist by various jedi, even masters from the council (who have seen war btw), he isn't up to the standard of Maul which I highly disagree with. I believe Dooku has more than the capability to hold his own against Maul in pure lightsaber combat, couple that with his incredible force power usage and skill + experience and we have a clear winner in this battle. "
It's 3 am so I'll have to get back to you. Bed time.
#126 Posted by Precise (22883 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silver2467 said:
" @Precise said:
" @Silver2467:  To be fair, Maul also beat Qui-Gon because Qui-Gon couldn't utilize his lightsaber technique properly in an enclosed space. 
Where was this stated? 
He used Ataru as his primary lightsaber combatform. That form is weakened in confined spaces.
#127 Posted by Precise (22883 posts) - - Show Bio
@Tank.: lol no problem, take your time =) Night!
#128 Edited by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@Precise said:

" @Silver2467 said:

" @Precise said:
" @Silver2467:  To be fair, Maul also beat Qui-Gon because Qui-Gon couldn't utilize his lightsaber technique properly in an enclosed space. 
Where was this stated? 
He used Ataru as his primary lightsaber combatform. That form is weakened in confined spaces. "
But again, where was that stated? I am aware of which form he used, but I am wondering what this is based on. I assume that is in a source book relating to lightsaber combat?
#129 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silver2467 said:
" @Precise said:

" @Silver2467 said:

" @Precise said:
" @Silver2467:  To be fair, Maul also beat Qui-Gon because Qui-Gon couldn't utilize his lightsaber technique properly in an enclosed space. 
Where was this stated? 
He used Ataru as his primary lightsaber combatform. That form is weakened in confined spaces. "
But again, where was that stated? I am aware of which form he used, but I am wondering what this is based on. I assume that is in a source book relating to lightsaber combat? "
In fairness though, neither Obi-Wan (at the time of his defeat) nor Qui-Gon were exactly the zenith of lightsaber combatants. It's not like they were in the same class as Windu or Luke, for instance.  Whereas Maul's primary power lay in his combat abilities, hence why he adopted the double-bladed saber.
 
Later on, Kenobi would have trashed Maul.
#130 Posted by Precise (22883 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silver2467: Pff i'd have to look that up, I really can't remember which book exactly that was stated. And this is by no means a realiable source but if you look around the various star wars wiki's they all state the same.
#131 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@FadeToBlackBolt said: 
In fairness though, neither Obi-Wan (at the time of his defeat) nor Qui-Gon were exactly the zenith of lightsaber combatants. It's not like they were in the same class as Windu or Luke, for instance.  Whereas Maul's primary power lay in his combat abilities, hence why he adopted the double-bladed saber.    
It is a greatly impressive feat given that Maul was outnumbered 2 to 1 and given the fact that both Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon were Guardians. Both also utilized Ataru at the time (although Obi-Wan later shifted to Soresu) and were, as a result, much more straightforward in their attack forms. It is also worth noting that Maul was 22 when he died. He had very little training and was very young when he accomplished this. His C-Canon feats should also be taken into account as well. 
 
Later on, Kenobi would have trashed Maul. "
If purely on lightsaber combat skill, that is debatable. 
#132 Posted by Kinasin (1083 posts) - - Show Bio
@Decoy Elite said:

" @Kinasin said:

" @Apparition said:
"

darth maul isnt even close to vader. vader would have killed maul. of all the sith in the movies 1-3 maul was the weakest one.

"
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Darth Sidious sends a force bolt through his peehole, at which point it concentrates up into his head for a BOOM HEADSHOT that shakes the very foundation of the cosmos......... "
In the EU Darth Maul is by far one of(if not) the best duelist in Star Wars. He was severally nerfed in the movies and killed off by plot. As for that other stuff.......gross.  "
last time I checked the movies are the ultimate source and once again, "
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Darth Sidious sends a force bolt through his peehole, at which point it concentrates up into his head for a BOOM HEADSHOT that shakes the very foundation of the cosmos......... "
#133 Posted by Precise (22883 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silver2467 said:
" and given the fact that both Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon were Guardians.
Where's that staten, because I always believed Qui-Gon was a consular.
#134 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@Precise: If you are referring to Wookieepedia, that is accurate about 9 out of 10 of the times. Star Wars wikia is probably the one wiki in existence that is actually, by and large, a reliable source of information. I have seen a few inaccuracies and have edited it before myself, but it is overall a reliable source. Still, I would be curious as to what source book exactly that is taken out of. 
#135 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silver2467 said:
" @FadeToBlackBolt said: 
In fairness though, neither Obi-Wan (at the time of his defeat) nor Qui-Gon were exactly the zenith of lightsaber combatants. It's not like they were in the same class as Windu or Luke, for instance.  Whereas Maul's primary power lay in his combat abilities, hence why he adopted the double-bladed saber.    
It is a greatly impressive feat given that Maul was outnumbered 2 to 1 and given the fact that both Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon were Guardians. Both also utilized Ataru at the time (although Obi-Wan later shifted to Soresu) and were, as a result, much more straightforward in their attack forms. It is also worth noting that Maul was 22 when he died. He had very little training and was very young when he accomplished this. His C-Canon feats should also be taken into account as well. 
 
Later on, Kenobi would have trashed Maul. "
If purely on lightsaber combat skill, that is debatable.  "
I'm not saying that it wasn't a huge effort, I agree Maul was a badass, and is severely underrated. He was the better man that day in Theed, however Mace Windu (arguably the greatest swordsman in SW canon) has called Obi-Wan THE master of Soresu combat, which would leave one to believe he could take Maul.
#136 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@Precise said:
" @Silver2467 said:
" and given the fact that both Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon were Guardians.
Where's that staten, because I always believed Qui-Gon was a consular. "
I want to say the Power of the Jedi source book, but I am not sure that is accurate. I may have to look that up.
#137 Posted by Precise (22883 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silver2467:  Cool, I believe I have that one. =) I'll check it out later but for now i'm off, cya!
#138 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silver2467 said:
" @Precise said:
" @Silver2467 said:
" and given the fact that both Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon were Guardians.
Where's that staten, because I always believed Qui-Gon was a consular. "
I want to say the Power of the Jedi source book, but I am not sure that is accurate. I may have to look that up. "
According to Wookiepedia (a wikia that uses references!!!!), it was the PotJ source book. :)
#139 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@FadeToBlackBolt said: 
I'm not saying that it wasn't a huge effort, I agree Maul was a badass, and is severely underrated. He was the better man that day in Theed, however Mace Windu (arguably the greatest swordsman in SW canon) has called Obi-Wan THE master of Soresu combat, which would leave one to believe he could take Maul. "
Windu is not the greatest swordsman in Star Wars canon, no matter what canon class you are referring to. Not to mention, Windu's statements on Obi-Wan's mastery only carry so much weight. In Star Wars, there are numerous statements made that absolutely contradict the facts. I do not by any means doubt that Obi-Wan was an elite Soresu duelist, but I would judge it by showings, not statements. 
#140 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@FadeToBlackBolt said:
" @Silver2467 said:
" @Precise said:
" @Silver2467 said:
" and given the fact that both Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon were Guardians.
Where's that staten, because I always believed Qui-Gon was a consular. "
I want to say the Power of the Jedi source book, but I am not sure that is accurate. I may have to look that up. "
According to Wookiepedia (a wikia that uses references!!!!), it was the PotJ source book. :) "
Was it? Thanks, but again, I may have to check that also.  
 
@Precise: Take it easy. 
#141 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silver2467 said:
" @FadeToBlackBolt said: 
I'm not saying that it wasn't a huge effort, I agree Maul was a badass, and is severely underrated. He was the better man that day in Theed, however Mace Windu (arguably the greatest swordsman in SW canon) has called Obi-Wan THE master of Soresu combat, which would leave one to believe he could take Maul. "
Windu is not the greatest swordsman in Star Wars canon, no matter what canon class you are referring to. Not to mention, Windu's statements on Obi-Wan's mastery only carry so much weight. In Star Wars, there are numerous statements made that absolutely contradict the facts. I do not by any means doubt that Obi-Wan was an elite Soresu duelist, but I would judge it by showings, not statements.  "
Fair enough, I don't claim to be an expert by any means, I only got back into SW recently; after being so ticked off at Episode III I basically swore off the Universe altogether.
 
Who would you consider some of the best swordsmen then, if you don't mind my asking? :)
#142 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@FadeToBlackBolt said:
" @Silver2467 said:
" @FadeToBlackBolt said: 
I'm not saying that it wasn't a huge effort, I agree Maul was a badass, and is severely underrated. He was the better man that day in Theed, however Mace Windu (arguably the greatest swordsman in SW canon) has called Obi-Wan THE master of Soresu combat, which would leave one to believe he could take Maul. "
Windu is not the greatest swordsman in Star Wars canon, no matter what canon class you are referring to. Not to mention, Windu's statements on Obi-Wan's mastery only carry so much weight. In Star Wars, there are numerous statements made that absolutely contradict the facts. I do not by any means doubt that Obi-Wan was an elite Soresu duelist, but I would judge it by showings, not statements.  "
Fair enough, I don't claim to be an expert by any means, I only got back into SW recently; after being so ticked off at Episode III I basically swore off the Universe altogether.  Who would you consider some of the best swordsmen then, if you don't mind my asking? :) "
No problem. Windu is definitely one of the greatest. His Vaapad use is incredible, especially if you understand the concept behind his form. I have actually never taken the time to compile a list of the greatest duelists in Star Wars. Usually when I make a list, it would be the most significant, powerful, or something of the like. I would have to think about it, given how many choices there. Luke should be at the top, though, with Sidious arguably just behind him. After them, however, there are several contenders who are just barely below them. I would have to think about it.  
 
I have the Power of the Jedi source book in front of me now. I will see if the information about Qui-Gon being a Guardian is there. 
#143 Edited by Tank. (2063 posts) - - Show Bio

  @Silver2467: So do you consider the rpg source books to be canon? If so which parts? Just the flavor text, or also the character builds, etc  
 
@Precise said:

"Alrighty, that doesn't like something we're going to agree on. Because i don't feel Dooku is as cocky as Maul."

Have you read the book on Episode three? His fight against Anakin and Obi-wan in it was full of his arrogance. The Jedi even played that fact against him. Dooku comments on the styles they are using and how they are no match for his etc. Then all of a sudden they start switching things up on him and he us caught surprised. Why? because his arrogance (him being cocky) made him think they were not truly a threat for his power. Dooku was also a speciest (is that technically a term? o.O), he is shown constantly to undermine alien races as inferior to man. The guy was a noble aristocratic, he oozed with being cocky. lol
 
Now what examples of Maul being cocky do we have. His demise against the fallen Padawan Obi-wan. Who mind you was more than just your average Padawan too. At least by the time Qui-Gon decided to take him on as his apprentice. Also Qui-Gon was known for keeping his Padawans longer than normal. Therefore extending their tenure as a Padawan. 
 
@Precise said:

"I've tried looking at their lightsaber fighting styles, but its pretty clear that there won't be a severe advantage in those areas. "

Agreed. There is defiantly no clear advantage to either one that would guarantee them a victory with just lightsaber fighting skills.
 
@Precise said:

"Now, the point I keep coming back to is that Dooku clearly is the better force user as he demonstrated various times in canon movies, comics and stories. I'm not saying Maul is a slouch in that department but he's not on the level as Dooku. "

Besides performing Force Lightning though what has Dooku ever done that Maul hasn't? Both have used move object. Both have used force jump/leap. Both have used force choke. Both have used force push. As I mentioned we've also seen Maul track a (think he was a smuggler, will have to check for his name) using the force, through the under city of Coruscant. Was Dooku better and more trained in the force? Yes. But did we ever see anything from him to give a clear cut victory just on that deciding factor.
 
@Precise said:

" Their physical attributes can be enhanced by the force so even if Dooku has an older body, he can still boost it so i don't see their physical state as an issue."

This is one of the other things I'm still reluctant on. The only time I have seen reference to the Force actually enhancing a character Physical Strength, or Dexterity. Was in the Star Wars rpg books. And even then out of the 6 stats that made up your character, the only two you could increase was strength and dexterity(agility). However the newer edition that came out got rid of this force power. It worked dependent of your roll and could add +2, +4, or +6 to one of those stats.
 
Are there any canon sources that specifically stat someone using the Force to enhance his strength or agility? I'm not talking about Force run or Force leap as those are completely separate things. Or 'rage' where one just falls more into the darkside losing himself.
 
@Precise said:

"Besides that, you've brought up the point that Dooku was trained in an era where there wasn't as much war and that his lightsaber battles with Yoda and Mace were therefore not in a combat situation. But this is battle is basically a spar between the two, Dooku vs Maul. How is that so much different from a sparring match other than Maul being more vicious?"

The main difference is that you are actually trying to kill one another. You will use techniques and tactics you otherwise never would of in a sparing match. I'll have to track down the source, but Lightsaber duals in the Order consisted of either no force powers, or none that would physically damage your opponent. 
 
@Precise said:

"And Mace WIndu's fighting style is all about being aggresive."

Personally they should of outlawed Mace Windu's Vaapad. Never let anyone else train in it at the very least. It was basically playing with fire. Fire being the darkside. But that's another debate.
 
@Precise said:

"You make it seem like, that even though Dooku was concidered one of the best lightsaber duelist by various jedi, even masters from the council (who have seen war btw), he isn't up to the standard of Maul which I highly disagree with."

That's not what I meant when I said he was a convenient replacement. I don't mean that he was any worse than Maul as Sidious Apprentice. I mean that Dooku was a convenient replacement because Sidious would not have to train an Apprentice from the ground up again. Like he had done with Maul. More so in fact Dooku's political attachments helped Palapatines cause, there by making it even more convienent.
 
@Precise said:

"I believe Dooku has more than the capability to hold his own against Maul in pure lightsaber combat, couple that with his incredible force power usage and skill + experience and we have a clear winner in this battle."

What are these incredible force powers that give him the clear cut edge? Besides using Force Lightning (which can be deflected or absorbed) what has he done to give him so much of an advantage.
 
Darth Maul: We know he was trained and pushed to the edge from a young age up to his death to be an elite killing machine. He often fought against numerous combat droids blind, and defeated them. His very first test was to assassinate a Jedi Master named Siolo'urmanka. The first confrontation lead to Maul being defeated (bare in mind this is at a young age), instead of returning in defeat. Maul adapted and overcame. Forming his double bladed lightsaber and then slayed the Jedi Master. Maul was later sent after another force user named Silus. Who was a pit fighter, which Maul beheaded. After this Maul was later abandoned by his Master and hunted by Assassin droids. After this he had a brief scuffle with Sidous once he was provoked by easily lost. After this Maul dispatched arguably the galaxies greatest criminal syndicate, the Black Sun. During this time he also killed assassins and the Nightsister Mighella. Maul was also responsible for the deaths of two other Jedi before the Battle of Naboo. Anoon Bondara who was another extremely skilled lightsaber fighter, and his Padawan Darsha Assant. To note Anoon was considered one of the Orders best as well. After that everyone knows what happens between Qui-Gon and Obi-wan. Bare in mind Qui-Gon was also a very well respected combatant. We then have a doppleganger of Maul created by the Prophets of the Darkside where it battled Vader & Troops. Maul easily dispatched them and had Vader defeated. The only thing that saved Vader was him impaling himself to kill Maul. Had Vader not been half machine at this time it would of surely killed him as well. (Not mentioning the Apparition Anakin fought in a cave, or the holographic image Luke fought)
 
Edit: Also want to note some of Maul's other feats. Showing that he was far from just a brute. He himself modified a Protocal Droid (one similar to C-3PO) into an assassin droid, as well as the dark eye probe droids he used.
#144 Posted by Erik (31624 posts) - - Show Bio
@Tank.:  
Very nice argument. 
#145 Posted by Tank. (2063 posts) - - Show Bio
@erik: Thanks =)
#146 Posted by Precise (22883 posts) - - Show Bio
@Tank.:  Nice =) I think I will respond to it tomorrow, still coming off of my flu lol.
#147 Posted by ckal (1097 posts) - - Show Bio

Quick question for anyone who can answer...in what book does Vader and Maul fight? I'd like to check it out. Thanks.

#148 Posted by ckal (1097 posts) - - Show Bio
@Tank.:  I just checked out the  Siolo'urmanka page on wookieepedia and it had this to say about his battle with Darth Maul:
 

A recluse for seventy years, Siolo lived on a jungle world in the Jentares system. He renounced the lightsaber to concentrate on a purer technique, wielding only a wooden staff.

The Dark Lord Darth Sidious sent his apprentice Darth Maul to assassinate Siolo as a test. Using only his staff, Siolo easily deflected every single one of Maul's lightsaber attacks. To solve the problem, Maul created his double-bladed lightsaber, and revealed its additional blade in his second battle with Siolo in a surprise attack that skewered Siolo from behind, ending the ancient Twi'lek's life. 

Manka was skilled with his staff, able to easily defeat Darth Maul during their first duel. During both of the duels he either dodged Maul's blows or filled his staff with the Force, making it into a Force Weapon, allowing him to parry the blows without the staff being severed.   

 
So it seems that Maul defeated Siolo who wasn't using a lightsaber, but also surprised him with a killing blow from behind. This may not be properly explained on wookieepedia, but maybe you can shed some more light on it since I am not that knowledgeable on this topic.


#149 Posted by Tank. (2063 posts) - - Show Bio
@Precise: Take your time. :) Hope you get to feeling better.
 
@ckal said:

" Quick question for anyone who can answer...in what book does Vader and Maul fight? I'd like to check it out. Thanks. "

 It;s from Star Wars Tales #9, I believe.
#150 Posted by Precise (22883 posts) - - Show Bio
@Tank.: Meh, had it for a couple of days now.. should be gone tomorrow i think.