Darth Maul vs Darth Bane

@silver2467:

1. Its no problem.

2. Well, maybe his lack of usage on Zannah might point to her knowing a defense. Yeah, I know, 99% speculation and conjecture.

3. Well, he might not have the opportunity to TK with Maul savagely attacking him, but that might not be the case.

4. Those are examples of Force-users beating better lightsaber duelists.

Anyways, I'm gonna go play some TOR now. :P

Completely speculation and conjecture to affirm a more desirable consequent. Nothing implies Zannah possesses a resistance to Drain.

Hence my argument that Maul would win a majority.

I think we begin to see eye to eye on this.

Okay...

1. Traya stood a courtyard away from the Jedi, they never even mounted an attack against her, and she proved noticeably more powerful than all of them. Bane is not so much more powerful than Maul as Traya was more powerful than the Jedi on Dantooine.

2. Nihilus is generously more powerful than Sion. The power inequality between Nihilus and Sion overshadows the power inequality between Bane and Maul. Citing an example where two characters of enormously disproportionate power incapacitate one another is a farcry from the battle in this thread. You might as well recount Dooku wrecking Quinlan Vos with the Force as an example. The problem with that comparison is the divergence of power between the two characters. Bane and Maul are closer in power than Nihilus and Sion or Dooku and Quin are. As I recall, you yourself said that Bane would not be capable of just massacring Maul with a single Force attack, yet Nihilus did exactly that to Sion. So gauging that example by your previous statements respective of Maul and Bane, the confrontation between Nihilus and Sion carries no weight.

3. Maybe it's just been too long since I played KOTOR 2, but I remember a very different outcome from Kreia challenging Sion. As I recall, the inverse happened, where Sion severed Kreia's hand. Was there another duel between the two that I forgot about?

All of these examples are rather far-reaching. In the Bane trilogy itself, where Bane's story was explored, the narrative often prioritized skill over power during duels. It was for that reason that Bane was desperately searching for an escape from Kas'im and why Bane was succumbing to the Jedi he faced in Darzu's tomb. His raw Force power may eclipse theirs (especially with the orbalisk armor), but he lacked the finesse to both wield his lightsaber and issue fatal Force attacks at once. Skill meant more in those battles than power, to which Bane held the edge in the latter. The same would apply here. If the imparity of power between Bane and Maul was broader, then Bane could probably win with just a simple Force attack, similar to what Nihilus did to Sion or what Dooku did to Quin. Skill is a more consequential factor in a duel unless one character is just far and away more powerful than another, such as the aforementioned cases with Nihilus and Sion and Dooku and Quin. However, since we both agree that Bane is not so much more powerful than Maul as to be able to beat him with one concentrated exertion of his powers, then skill remains the governing issue.

@silver2467: Maybe we're seeing eye-to-eye, but I thought you said the TK would be of about the same speed as the lightning cocoon? In which case it should be applicable....

It wasn't really a duel, and it was S-canon. But your point still stands, Kreia > Sion, so Force Crushing him to death instantly might not be a good example.

Yes, but would it afford Bane a majority of wins? That's where my confidence in Bane's powers ends. I definitely am not arguing that Maul would win all encounters against Bane, 10/10, because sheer power is an advantage for Bane. But would that one advantage save him in most rounds? Probably not. Lightsaber skill matters more, and Maul's lead in that department should earn him more victories than losses.

@silver2467: Starting range is probably going to determine this?

It depends. If the TK wave manages to knock or slow down Maul enough to allow for more, then yes, it would allow for wins. Otherwise, I think Maul wins 6/10 at best.

I'll say 5/10 for both. Don't think that you got me any closer to believing Maul wins, though. :)

@shootingnova: If no starting distance is listed in the OP, battle forum rules say the combatants begin close.

And, really, how is starting distance going to determine this? We've already discussed the fact that Bane's normal combat methods involve him engaging an opponent in a duel which would give a platform to his aggressive lightsaber style, his physical strength, and possibly an occasional Force attack. Bane will not resolve to pummel Maul with Force attacks from a distance from the outset; he will hasten in to face him at close range. So how does the starting distance change anything?

@shootingnova said:

Which is about Bane's only way to win, but as I said before, that could happen, just not for a majority. Bane could win by bombarding Maul with Force attacks to compensate for his inferior lightsaber prowess, but the likelihood of that occurring a majority of rounds is scant. It would only grant him a minority of wins.

@silver2467: Bane gets a minority for TK bombardment, plus a few more rounds for the cocoon into TK. 4-5/10 at least.

Also, I need to go now. I won't be able to respond until about tomorrow, unless I'm getting home early.

If that's your decision, fair enough. We can agree to disagree.

Good discussion, Nova.

That's fine.

@silver2467: lol I was going to reply but after reading your debate with Nova I'm am convinced; I agree Maul beats Bane for the majority 6 to 6.5/10

This passage right here is what really convinced me:

All of these examples are rather far-reaching. In the Bane trilogy itself, where Bane's story was explored, the narrative often prioritized skill over power during duels. It was for that reason that Bane was desperately searching for an escape from Kas'im and why Bane was succumbing to the Jedi he faced in Darzu's tomb. His raw Force power may eclipse theirs (especially with the orbalisk armor), but he lacked the finesse to both wield his lightsaber and issue fatal Force attacks at once. Skill meant more in those battles than power, to which Bane held the edge in the latter. The same would apply here. If the imparity of power between Bane and Maul was broader, then Bane could probably win with just a simple Force attack, similar to what Nihilus did to Sion or what Dooku did to Quin. Skill is a more consequential factor in a duel unless one character is just far and away more powerful than another, such as the aforementioned cases with Nihilus and Sion and Dooku and Quin. However, since we both agree that Bane is not so much more powerful than Maul as to be able to beat him with one concentrated exertion of his powers, then skill remains the governing issue.

xD

Maul is a better swordsman, but he loses.

@dccomicsrule2011: What some people forget is that his duel with Ka'sim was in the 1st Novel of the Trilogy. Bane was actually winning at the start until Ka'sim separated his dual-bladed saber into two separate sabers, surprising Bane and pushing him back. This only worked because Bane didn't have experience against this form of attack, which Ka'sim had held in reserve from Bane as he was Bane's teacher.

Also, Ka'sim was a master of all seven lightsaber forms and spent 40yrs perfecting them. He was considered perhaps one of the top 10 Lightsaber Duelists in history. Bane did win by using his stronger Force Powers, but that doesn't mean that Bane's skills stopped improving. The next two books cover 20yrs of events, study, training and of course raising Zannah as a Sith.

And as far as Force Powers, Bane is quite superior to Maul who never really got much chance to showcase his own abilities.

bane...

@dccomicsrule2011: Fair enough.

With that argued at length, here is my OP for TCW Maul vs Bane. Note: I am trying to follow the TC's original stipulations as much as possible.

VS

Rules:

• TCW Maul vs DoE Bane.
• Battle takes place on Kamino, nighttime, unpopulated.
• Combatants begin ten meters apart.
• Victory by death or BFR.
• Both are bloodlusted.
• No prep or outside aid.
• Standard equipment.

And...begin.

MAUL

@silver2467: That's not mentioning cocoon into potential Drain, but whether Bane can actually do anything with that before he gets drained himself is a mystery. I'm not sure if Maul could resist it. That's probably half a point extra. Like 4.5-5.5. So I'll say either Bane wins a half a point's worth of majority, or Maul does.

Also, are you allowed to just.... take over the thread and make your own OP in another person's thread? LOL, I never knew that.

And I like how you're just ignoring that guy.... reikai. LOL.

For the new fight, it should be pretty much the same, minus the fact that the new Maul might get to taunting, which equals to another temple-blowing Force wave.

EDIT: LOL, I did not take into consideration TCW Maul's superior Force showings. I have truly become an idiot after not being present on CV for so long.

Maybe one thing I didn't consider in the original fight was that Bane might not have had experience against aggressive double-bladed lightsaber duelists, since Zannah was purely a master of Soresu.

EDIT: Scrap that, I completely forgot about Kas'im. -_-

Well, you already know my thoughts on the potential of Drain to actually matter in the fight. So, I don't you think you need the repetition of me saying it again.

It may sound odd, but back when k4tz was a mod, I used to see him recommend to users that they write out their own OP in a thread to update it with new versions or to specify rules if the TC neglected to do so. And even if that was not allowed, well, I'm doing it anyway (no disrespect to your authority or anything, CB :P ).

What now?

@shootingnova: Not sure what the point of ignoring me here would be. It's not SW vs Comics or Manga. It's SW vs SW. It's not like there's gonna be a biased response. I actually like Maul. I've read the Bane Trilogy and "Darth Maul -Shadow Hunter-", and watched TCW.

Even the Dark Side guide books where it did include saying that in deep desperation Maul nearly killed Sidious in saber combat after being chased and hunted down for weeks by mobs of assassin droids, and in his exhaustion and rage at being told he was going to be replaced, Maul assaulted Sid with such fury he nearly overwhelmed and killed him.

A fairly impressive feat for Maul, though it seemed to tell Sid's weakness in saber combat and/or he didn't realize how good Maul really was. Either way, Maul really isn't on Bane's level in either aspect. He fights well, but Bane has him.

@silver2467: So if you write a new OP in another guy's thread, you basically take over?

@shootingnova: Not so much "take over," just giving users something else to think about. I am not replacing the TC here and will involve myself in the discussion as a normal poster would, not as a usually-indifferent, neutral TC would. But, in a sense, yes, I have somewhat hijacked the thread. LOL. In all fairness though, this did give new life to the topic.

To disclose a preemptive thought relative to TCW Maul vs Bane, where anyone could certainly build a forceful case for Bane transcending TPM Maul in Force power, I think one would hard pressed to do that when comparing Bane with TCW Maul. TCW Maul's feats of raw power are nothing short of incredible, and altogether, they at least rival Bane's, possibly succeed his. I have to wonder what sort of conclusions could be derived if we were to reduce Bane's primary advantage over TPM Maul when contrasting him with TCW Maul. However, there is a drawback to TCW Maul, which I will cover later. I just want to instigate conversation about this point for a little bit before progressing first.

Oh NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DAMNIT!!!!! I flagged Silver when I tried to press the quote button.

^LOL

It's not really a problem. Mods will understand.

Anyway. Moving on...

Let's try this again.

Well, I'll keep in mind that you can do that... I don't think you will be really caught out by mods or anything, but the original OP might be a bit upset if you didn't get his permission. Then again, thieves don't ask for permission when the steal and hijack stuff.

I'm still looking over TCW Maul's TK feats, such as choking Obi-Wan and hurling him against a wall and throwing him about ten metres. I haven't watched all of TCW, so I think I may have missed superior feats.

When I meant they were relatively equal, I meant as far as lightsaber combat goes. The difference between using a single-bladed lightsaber and his double-bladed lightsaber shouldn't be too significant.

@silver2467: Have you seen all of TCW (with Maul's showings)? I've seen a bunch of eps here and there, I'm not sure if I've seen all.

I've seen Maul vs Savage, Maul + Savage vs Obi-Wan and Adi Gallia, Maul + Savage vs Obi-Wan and Ventress, Maul + Savage vs Palpatine and Maul vs Pre Vizsla.

Heh.

If you want a more comprehensive list:

Maul appears to telekinetically decelerate his landing down the reactor shaft on Naboo, while suffering from the injury of being bisected no less. He later controls his lightsaber to weave it around a massive droid, again with no legs or medical attention for his wounds. After this, he manufactures his spider-like legs by telekinetically amassing debris and appears to animate the legs with the Force.

Gallery

He chokes out Obi-Wan while simultaneously evading other Jedi and escaping, only releasing Obi-Wan from his telekinetic grip after traveling far from Obi-Wan's location.

Gallery

He uses choke, twisting the victim's head completely around.

Gallery

Maul scatters a group of soldiers with a casual push, after which he and Savage blast a company of dozens of soldiers backward.

Gallery

He crumbles a tunnel ceiling, causing a veritable avalanche.

Gallery

He shows the precision to fracture individual bones and crush others' hearts.

Gallery

He crushes a droid (00:40).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBPZD87czXU

LD-112 never reached the intruder. Suddenly, he was in the air, though his sensors failed to determine why. Then his metal head was collapsing in on itself, crushed by some unseen pressure. He was logging a request for emergency maintenance when the main and auxiliary power cables to his brain snapped and his logic modules went offline.

Darth Maul strode into the office on his mechanical legs, still holding the droid deputy in the air with the Force. Behind him came another horned warrior, thickly muscled and covered with yellow tattoos. He was holding a double-bladed saber. The new arrival, Savage Opress, slashed through one of the security droids, then raised his head, lifting the two remaining droids into the air. Their legs kicked briefly before he called upon the Force and slammed them against the wall.

Maul let LD-112's motionless body drop and the two Zabraks began to search the office.

--Taken from Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy

He hurls Obi-Wan down a corridor and in the process collapses the ceiling (4:45) and then later pulls a shuttle off a cliff (6:07). That shuttle model, by the way, is around twenty meters in length.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE_CVWMWK74

Maul growled, then reached desperately out in the Force, turning his fury into a command. The Jedi shuttle tumbled off the ridge with a groan, crashing down on the landing pad and scattering pirates.

--Taken from Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy

In short, TCW Maul was pulling his weight.

In terms of technique, in some ways, it is. However, a skill comparison between TPM Maul and TCW Maul is an interesting topic. TPM Maul has beaten Anoon Bondara, Darsha Assant, Mighella, Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, and a few others. Sources have further given Maul such accolades as being one of the most skilled Sith Lords in history.

One of the most skilled and deadly warriors in Sith history, Darth Sidious' apprentice took part in the first encounter between Jedi Knight and Sith warrior for more than 1,000 years in the Battle for Naboo.

As a Sith devotee, Darth Maul drew his power from the dark side of the Force. He was one of the most highly trained Sith in the history of the order.

--Taken from The Official Star Wars Fact File #1

TCW Maul has fought evenly with Obi-Wan more than once, even seemingly overwhelming him in their first encounter, according to Sith Hunters, which forced Obi-Wan to flee. He further beaten Ko Solok and Bruu Jun-Fan together; quickly dominated Savage; assumed the upper hand against Judd; and so on. Both have a solid track record against notable fighters. To me, it would be difficult to say whether one might outstrip the other, but I have a long series of complaints about some of TCW Maul's other combat showings.

I have seen every TCW episode Maul appears in, yes.

@silver2467: Well Anoon Bondara was the Jedi Master of Teras Kasi, which is the HTH Martial Art taught to Jedi (but only in their more recent history, about a few hundred years or so back). It says nothing about his lightsaber skills.

And if I remember correctly, Darsha was Bondara's Padawan and Maul found her a stronger opponent because her connection to the Force was stronger than her masters and she immersed herself fully in it. However, she lacked discipline and experience and Maul overwhelmed her.

As far as the "fact file" goes, take that with a grain of salt. It's impossible to record every Sith in history, nvm the original Dark Jedi who created the Sith Order thousands of years earlier, or those Dark Force users responsible for pushing back the Rakata 25thousand years ago when the Rakatan's lost their connection to the Force and were plagued with sickness because of their over use of the Force in everything they did.

The "History of the Sith" would include, at least, Millions of Sith, Dark Jedi, Acolytes and other Dark Force users. I might conclude Maul is in the top 50 skilled, if only because we don't have a laundry list of every Sith there is.

But there is also a problem. It says "In the History of the Order", which can be taken to mean any number of ways. And you need to think about it. The Sith Order has changed Philosophies and Methods a number of times since the first Dark Siders emerged during the Force Wars. This line can very well refer to the "Rule of Two" Sith Order that was founded by Darth Bane, the idea to which was inspired by Darth Revan.

The problem with these statements is they are generally made without all the facts and with information that is constantly changing. It woudn't include those during the events of SWTOR or the period of time between the Galactic War in 3500bby during the events of SWTOR, up to around 1100bby when we see a different order of Sith with Knight Errant.

In all honestly, I could probably name a dozen Sith off the top of my head who're more skilled than Maul. But anyone can really just say Tulak Horde and be absolutely correct. You could even say Tulak is the #1 Lightsaber Duelist in the entirety of the SWU. The next few positions people will argue over relentlessly, but I'm going right out and saying Marka Ragnos is the 2nd best ever, and one of the most powerful figures in the SWU. And we can say that without some convoluted and poorly written 30 volume series about him.

That is my belief there. Marka Ragnos isn't just some guy you did not F**K with, you Could Not F**K with him. I mean we had Naga Sadow who can spark an unstable star into a super nova and generate realistic illusions across a section of the galaxy, and Ludo Kressh who was his equal in battle, and the both of them were deathly afraid of Ragnos, even on his death bed they wouldn't even dare to start S**t in his presence. Not even Vitiate, who'd become the Sith Emperor in SWTOR, would try anything at that time.

To me, that is what made Ragnos an awesome character.

@reikai: I didn't read all of that, but now I don't want to after seeing the first and last parts of the post. How did it get from Anoon Bondara to Marka Ragnos. Absolutely irrelevant.

And by the way, the events of SWTOR occur in 3, 643 - 3,641 BBY. Of course, there could be further expansions which could extend the period, but there's no way it's going anywhere near 3500 BBY.

And though Tulak Hord is widely acclaimed as a skilled lightsaber duelist, he is far, far too lacking in feats for that to actually be visibly possible, as of the moment.

The reason Vitiate did nothing during Marka Ragnos's reign was because he wasn't anywhere near his prime.

@silver2467: Nice compilation of feats. I'll definitely be able to accept TCW Maul as the victor.

@shootingnova: Possibly. To me, all it essentially does is negate Bane's power advantage, because TCW Maul's Force feats can compete with Bane's (or at least, compete with Bane's TK feats, seeing as Maul never showed Lightning). However, I said before that there is a drawback to TCW Maul, and there is. That drawback is the general tone and style of Force powers as represented in TCW. TCW, being an animated show, is a bit withdrawn when concerning physical feats for characters. Certainly, there are prodigious examples of character acrobatics, strength, and resiliency (Savage's ability to tank blaster bolts will never cease to impress me), but speed is where TCW, like the movies, restrains itself a little more.

Like the movies, TCW's duels do appear to be "slowed down" for the benefit of the viewer to watch the fight choreography and does permit related works to express a more extraordinary speed threshold for characters. This is why in novelizations, like Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy, there are instances where Maul and Savage are stated to draw their lightsabers in an eyeblink or whirl their lightsabers in blurring motions or the like; there is also the instance where Sidious appears to Maul to be wielding dozens of lightsabers near the end of their duel. As a result, just like the movies, I would hardly count the fact that we can visually track the movements of Force sensitives on-screen as contrary to the preternatural speed Jedi are featured with in EU works. But, as opposed to the movies which heavily imply Jedi speed is severely moderated on-screen and which do not narratively repudiate this implication very much, there are more instances in TCW where, superhumanly fast or not, Force-accelerated movements can be approximated by non-Force sensitives. In Maul's case, his struggle with Sugi and Pre-Vizla were especially harmful to what can be said for Maul's overall speed. These showings do not portend that Maul is incapable of compelling the Force to magnify his speed, because he certainly can as stated in Shadow Conspiracy and as even shown on-screen (his various showings of blaster deflection, his brief bursts of running speed, etc.). However, they could frustrate an argument for TCW Maul's speed whose list of speed feats trailed behind TPM Maul's.

Now, why TCW Maul may be slower than TPM Maul, in-universe, is a strange aspect to consider, which is why I think, in-universe, it could be that there is not supposed to be a disparate speed class between the two versions of the character. Really, the only reason TCW Maul has not obtained the wealth of high-end speed feats that TPM Maul has is because TCW, by its basic style, is not so effusive with its approach to Force powers as some other EU works and authors are (ahem, Karpyshyn). However, I'm not sure I can say with all sincerity that the style of TCW acquits Maul from his lack of better speed feats. It is a point to think about, but if comparing Bane to TCW Maul, the simple fact is that TCW Maul has not reproduced some of Bane's higher end speed showings. On the other hand, one other point to take into consideration is that Karpyshyn himself does have his own inflated style within his own stories. Let's be honest, if Maul ever appeared in a Drew Karpyshyn novel, then Maul would pull off all the same Force feats that Bane did. Part of the variance here does owe in part to the very antithetical concept of Force powers that the TCW staff (namely Filoni, I think) and Karpyshyn have. But can that completely excuse Maul from a feat contrast with Bane? Not really sure.

In general, this type of inspection into stylistic approaches to Force Speed is really only relevant on a battle forum, and quite honestly, the staff of TCW does not write their stories to satisfy battle forum posters, which is sensible. Writers should write their stories for the sake of their stories, not (as is often Karpyshyn's mistake) for the sake of proving their characters are the most powerful characters ever. So I really can't fault the TCW writers too much for their take on Force powers; all it really is a narrative decision, after all. But for the purposes of battle forums, their regard for Force powers can invite some difficulty in interpreting character abilities, which is why I myself am at a loss for what I should consider TCW Maul's speed class to be. That being said, even if we were to surmise that Bane is faster than Maul's TCW incarnation, the speed divide is not sufficient for Bane to just overmatch Maul by pure speed. It would impart leverage to him, but that could be balanced out by Maul's superior lightsaber skill. The whole issue is rather nebulous.

@silver2467: I don't think Maul having a hard time with Vizla is a low showing though. For whatever reason, the latter has an uncanny and unexplained PIS auro that allows him to face off against others that should roflstomp him, but at the same time he has struggled with guys he, should, in theory stomp himself.

For example, Vizla has been able to give Obi-Wan a run for his money, as you already stated, give Maul everything he could handle, hell he has even stalemated Ahsoka Tano (yeah some may say she is a horrible abomination, but she is pretty powerful for a padawan) But at the same time, in a Clone Wars comic I read (can't remember the name at this moment) Vizla had a hard time beating a fodder Trooper who just picked up a lightsaber. -_-

On topic, I'm giving Maul the majority here even more so then TPM Maul, Bane was afforded wins over TPM Maul because he was marginly more powerful then him, but here not only is Maul up there with Bane in the Force, he is still the more adroit duelist and I'm hesitant to say faster.

Maul should have this 7/10

No argument there. Vizla's unfounded skill with a lightsaber is not explained properly, but it has seen him duel head to head with many renowned lightsaber masters. The reason I considered it more of a low showing for Maul though is not because of Vizla's skill, because, by this point, the man should practically be considered a decorated lightsaber master, but because of Vizla's physical stats. He is after all only human, while Maul himself, because of the Force, is superhuman. Let me ask this: Do you think Bane, as he was written in the Bane trilogy, would have struggled so much against Vizla? That might help communicate my point a little more clearly. Obviously, if Bane was written by the TCW staff, then he would struggle with a character like Vizla every bit as much as Obi-Wan or Maul did, and that fact again opens the murky subject of narrative style in accordance with Force powers, which, as I said before, I have arrived at no certainties on.

LOL. Seriously?

In my opinion, the only way TCW Maul could be recognized as faster than Bane is if we acknowledged his speed as identical to TPM Maul's, which to me is still questionable.

@shootingnova: 4yr old Vitiate was already killing people with his mind. He was already quite powerful as an adult and he was 100yrs old when Ragnos died.Couldn't dismiss him at the time, he just knew he wasn't on Ragnos' level.

@silver2467: Bane shattered the forward section of the Rakatan Temple to bury Kas'im with, and that's hundreds of tons of solid stone at least. Bane's lightning is powerful enough to instantly turn multiple people into charred husks, and he could reflect lesser force attacks back to their source (once did to a young Zannah to show'er not to attack recklessly and she learned to better hide her intent).

Bane could use lightning in both manners, from his hands or commanding it from the atmosphere to strike from above. He could create Force Shields to protect himself and, of course, a Death Field around him that rips the Life and Force Energy from any caught in the field, which gives him the strength to maintain it as it is a very draining technique to employ in this form. Not something that he would use in a 1v1 duel.

@silver2467:

1. To be honest? The way TCW is written, I think Bane would struggle with Vizla as well. Considering his track record against Force sensitives I don't think it's really suprising...

2. xD Yep, the comics is called Star Wars: The Clone Wars: Defenders of the Lost Temple. Basicly Vizla and Death Watch was trying to locate an ancient artifact that makes one imprevious to harm in a abandoned Jedi temple. At the same time, 2 Jedi and a group of Clonetroopers where after said artifact as well.

After some stuff went down, Vizla challanged a trooper to a lightsaber duel, Vizla had the upperhand most of the duel, but when Vizla started tuanting him about being a "Jedi wannabe" the Trooper delivered a powerful blow that staggered Vizla back, thus ending the duel.

3. Interesting.....Why do you think TCW Maul's speed is not identical with TPM?

@dccomicsrule2011: Do we know what the artifact was? I don't read the TCW comics, but I know of one such item from the KOTOR comics called the "Left Hand of Kressh the Younger" I believe, and it made it so that no one could touch or harm the wearer without their explicit permission.

@reikai: Yeah I think that's it. But the comic called it "The Gauntlet of Kressh th Younger" I'm figuring it's just different name of the same artifact.

@dccomicsrule2011: That would be it. Though it was supposed to have been destroyed after it was torn off Hazen and he got blasted from orbit by the Republic Fleet. Maybe it wasn't even in the ruins in TCW and they didn't know. Quite possible given how much information is lost over time due to constant wars.

My thought exactly, which basically goes to show that you and I concur that some narratives have their own exclusive outlook on the scale of Force powers. To what extent that alter matters for battle forum purposes though is what we're currently examining.

Hilarious.

Mostly by virtue of the fact that TCW Maul's speed feats are not quite up to par with TPM Maul's speed feats and the fact that TCW Maul has been worn and evaded by foes that TPM Maul would've danced circles around. Again, part of this is due to narrative and stylistic choices. In-universe, there probably is no gap in speed between Maul's dual incarnations. Out of universe, there does appear to be one though.

@silver2467:

Hmm that makes sense. Okay for the sake of this debate let's just assume Bane is faster then TCW Maul, and if we assume he is, would that give him the edge in a duel? I don't think so, Bane's speed advantage (that's if he has one at all) would not be too big of one to the point Maul will be overwhelmed by it, he still would do just fine in that regard. Maul is clearly the more adroit duelist then Darth Bane is so that leads to this; which one is more important in a duel skills with a lightsaber or holding a slight speed advantage?

If Bane is faster then Maul (which I'm not totally convinced of, but as I said for the sake of the argument let's say he is) it's only to small advantage, while I would consider Maul's skill advantage a much larger gap then Bane's speed advantage. Seeing as how slower Force sensitives can not onlyy duel against people who are faster then them thanks to precognition (I.E. DE Luke dueling evenly with Sdious, Dooku against Yoda; etc) I do not see why it would tip the scale over to Bane here, while Maul is the obvious superior duelist. So basicly it's speed vs skill, and you know what?

I'm going with skill here, the desparity (if any) between Darth Bane's speed is marginly smaller then despaity Maul has him in skill.

@dccomicsrule2011: I wouldn't place Maul's skill as greater than Bane's. And Bane is also physically superior to Maul in strength. Overall, Bane is the better fighter with more experience under his belt. Maul did start earlier in his training, however it was already pointed out that he wasn't going to be anybodies successor.

And you raise a solid point with that question, to which I would answer that skill should be more important, unless the speed dissimilarity is like Palpatine to Saesee Tiin, but obviously, Bane is not that much faster than Maul. As with the power vs skill debate, generally speaking, skill is more critical unless the power of one character or the speed of one character so vastly preponderates the other that they could end the duel in a single attack, but that's not the case in this thread. If Bane holds the speed edge, by however much, we can say that it would not instantly overwhelm Maul, as you said.

Good points.

Again, good points. Dooku and Yoda is a cogent example to cite. With that said, is it necessarily true that the speed advantage between Bane and Maul is slight? The speed difference between Dooku and Yoda or Palpatine and Luke was only a fair difference, not an astronomic one (I again point to the instance of Palpatine and Saesee Tiin; that would be an example of an astronomical speed disparity). However, if we really wanted to exercise some precision when judging TCW Maul's speed showings, they may do more than simply fail to level him with Bane; they may actually leave him falling behind by a respectable distance. TCW Maul has few running speed feats that emulate Bane's, his striking speed is not quite as good either, and his reactionary showings are definitely not as good. TCW Maul can deflect blaster fire from half a dozen shooters or so at once, but that hardly matches the miniature armies that TPM Maul would reflect fire from. And Bane has deflected a torrent of rain. TCW Maul, while he has boasted decent striking speed, has also failed on occasion to land strikes on non-Force sensitive targets, such as Sugi. It is possible we could simply dismiss those low showings as just that by highlighting his more consistent feats, but even still, I feel we should at least acknowledge the low showings before we relegate their import. While I do agree with you that if Bane is faster than TCW Maul, his speed alone will not overpower Maul. However, I'm not sure I agree that it's only a small advantage. Depending on how fast specifically we conclude Maul to be, it could assist Bane fairly extensively.

......

I'm Bane, yes, that's my name.

When you hear the name Bane, I guarantee the pain.

I'm coming after you, Bruce Wayne.

I'm stronger, smarter, and clinically insane.

I'm Bane, yes, that's my name.

Bruce Wayne and the Batman are totally the same.

I broke his back mortal comBAT smack,

then I cracked my '28 Krug champagne.

I'm Bane, yes, it's a shame.

I declare martial law, and you all complain!

I laugh when you ask why I wear the mask.

I'll explain. It's because.....

I'm Bane, yes, that's my name.

You say it too much, the name becomes inane.

Of course! Some think my plan lacks gain.

If you say it too my face, I'll crash your plane.

@silver2467: In regards to the speed issue, I think we can say they are around the same. TCW Maul does have cybernetic enhancements, as well as the Force. We shouldn't be entirely regarding what we can see as their optimal feats. Besides, during Maul and Savage vs Obi-Wan and Ventress, I remembered there was a sped-up moment.

I believe it is around 2:00.

It seems to be a nice demonstration of Maul's speed/strength.

Maul's dueling with Pre Vizla shouldn't really be considered a lower-class feat, considering Obi-Wan was having about that much difficulty. Grievous losing to Gungans doesn't impress me, either.

By the way, have you seen Dooku vs Ventress and Savage? Oh wait, I think you have, since you said you saw when Savage tanked a bunch of bolts.

@reikai: What are you talking about? I said Vitiate didn't challenge Ragnos because he was no anywhere near his prime. His prime was the Cold War and the galactic war that followed. In the time span of over 1,000 years, he learnt many Force techniques and rituals.

@dccomicsrule2011: About the clones vs Vizla.....that is just... too funny. LOL XD

@shootingnova: Don't go over your head. Karpyshyn didn't wank Revan. He even had Revan lose, and openly stated in his Blog that he considered Revan, Bane and Vader to be equals and that he was sick of being asked who'd win between them.

Meetra was never going to play a big role in the story in the Revan novel and their tales were pretty much over. It wasn't about Meetra going across the unknown universe in some grandiose journey to find Revan once more and rebuild the team or anything like that. The entire point was just to build up the backstory of what happened leading up to the start of SWTOR. That's it.

The difference between Meetra and Revan is that Revan has a lot more experience than she does, and that he studied both sides of the Force and mastered many Sith teachings, rituals and techniques that Meetra never did. Meetra possessed the Potential to be as powerful as Revan, if not moreso. But just like Anakin, having the Potential is utterly meaningless if you never reach that potential. And that's what happened.

Btw Vitiate's Prime would be when he enacted the ritual to make himself immortal. And technically Ragnos is still around, just without a body. There's also no telling that even in his prime, if Vitiate could've bested Ragnos. That's all up in the air.

@reikai:Revan never mastered any Sith techniques. He has no feats pertaining to any of that.

And no, Vitiate's prime was way after that. He continued to explore dark side techniques and the likes for the centuries of the empire's exile.

"Over the centuries of the Empire's exile, the Emperor continued to develop his secret power base and guard against unseen threats. In his relentless and selfish pursuit of immortality, the Emperor explored the most sinister, uncharted depths of the dark side. The devastating cost of his actions would remain a mystery for years to come."

Source: Star Wars: The Old Republic Encyclopedia

What I can admit, however, was that I went a little bit too far in suggesting he wanked Revan to be the most powerful Force-user. He definitely didn't.

However, I didn't complain about the role of Meetra and Revan. I know the story was simply to tie up KOTOR, KOTOR II and SWTOR together, but there was an opportunity for showing Meetra's power, and that was wasted with feats of mediocrity.

But I don't see the point in any of this. It is completely off-topic.

@shootingnova: Meetra could've been shown more, but ultimately it wasn't the point of the book. Really, any time spent trying to delve more into Meetra or explaining what was going on with any of the other characters whom they've been involved with would detract from the story DK was trying to tell.

He wasn't getting multiple volumes to write and after that he was moving onto working on other projects and novels that he wanted to do and ultimately left BioWare and Lucas Arts to pursue those projects. He did what he could with what he was allowed to write with and it was still a good book.

Anyway, I still say Bane wins. Maul is good, but Bane is just better.

@reikai: Please, stop with this incorrect, irrelevant nonsense.

If you had even read my post, you would know that I said I know Karpyshyn wasn't trying to promote Meetra or anything, but in the battle scenes, Meetra should have shown much, much better feats, not those of a mediocre Jedi.

Tragically, the book everybody expected to be great and all let many people down.

I'm not denying that TCW Maul has superhuman speed, because he obviously does, and I listed showings form that confirm that. What I called into suspicion was the idea that TCW Maul is as fast as Bane.

TCW Obi-Wan isn't as fast as regular EU Obi-Wan either. And Maul dueling Pre-Vizla is and is not a low showing. It is not a low showing with respects to skill, because, for whatever reason, Vizla is a masterful lightsaber duelist; so Maul struggling against him is not a low showing for his skill. However, it is a low showing in terms of speed, because Vizla is not superhuman; thus, Maul should be able to pummel him a dozen times before Vizla could see it coming but never did (TPM Maul could have though if he was written as he was in his other EU appearances). With regards to the issue at hand, speed, yes, dueling Vizla and not blitzing him to death is a low showing, because it falls plenty short of what TPM Maul was capable of. As I said before, style in writing does make a difference, and for that reason, if Bane or TPM Maul were to duel Vizla in a story written by the TCW staff, they also would not WVSB. But narrative methods vs battle forum interpretation is a complicated subject.

@silver2467: I have no idea, man. That sort of stuff seems to happen regularly in TCW, or maybe just Star Wars in general. I mean, a grand master was killed by a bounty hunter once.

Maybe Vizsla did have an unnaturally high speed or was specifically trained or whatever. I don't want to go too far-fetched and say he's Force-sensitive and can use it to amp his speed, because that's essentially impossible.

I just realized we've both been spelling Vizsla wrong. I hate the way its spelt, though.