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#1 Posted by WorldEater (250 posts) - - Show Bio

 

Darth Maul
 Darth Bane
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
The fight takes on Kamino. 

Death for the win. 
 
Both are blood-lusted. 
 
No prep. 
 
No help. 
 
BFR is allowed. 
 
Lightsabers apply. 
 
Who wins?
#2 Posted by Xanni15 (6758 posts) - - Show Bio

Bane, probably very easily.

#3 Posted by JediXMan (30608 posts) - - Show Bio

Bane.

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#4 Posted by P0rtal (872 posts) - - Show Bio

in terms of raw force power, definitely Bane, but in terms of light saber combat skills he would be Maul, I'd put my republic credits on Bane winning by brute force, ripping Mauls saber away once he realizez Maul is significantly better fighting with light sabers.

#5 Posted by Lone_Wolf_and_Cub (5055 posts) - - Show Bio

Bane is overall more powerful and would say better with his powers.

#6 Posted by dccomicsrule2011 (24853 posts) - - Show Bio

@JediXMan said:

Bane.

#7 Posted by killers10333 (224 posts) - - Show Bio

Finally a thread where Bane can win legit.

#8 Edited by steelhound56 (1074 posts) - - Show Bio

Bane... Maul was no more than a trained Dark Side adept. In Darth Plagueis, Palpatine and Palgueis pretty much acknowledge that Maul is not suitable to inherit the legacy of Sith Lords. Palpatine trains him, but keeps much of the deeper secrets of the darkside from Maul's knowledge.

Bane takes this 10/10 due to having a HUGE advantage in raw Force power and knowledge of the Dark Side, and being good enough with a saber to keep up with Maul.

#9 Posted by Andhaira (97 posts) - - Show Bio

@steelhound56: @steelhound56 said:

Bane... Maul was no more than a trained Dark Side adept. In Darth Plagueis, Palpatine and Palgueis pretty much acknowledge that Maul is not suitable to inherit the legacy of Sith Lords. Palpatine trains him, but keeps much of the deeper secrets of the darkside from Maul's knowledge.

Bane takes this 10/10 due to having a HUGE advantage in raw Force power and knowledge of the Dark Side, and being good enough with a saber to keep up with Maul.

Uhmm no. I think you have yet to finish the book. Plaguies thought that because that's what Sidious wanted him to think. If Plagueis had known Sidious's true intentions, that he was training an apprentice, he would have killed him on the spot for breaking the rule of two and because he would rightly have suspected Sidious was about to make a move on him (which he did, while Plagueis was sleeping no less)

And yeah, I am pretty sure Maul would have defeated Bane one on one, as the novels on Bane prove he is not a master of saber combat by any means. It's the main reason he needed armor, since he could not even keep up with saber master Jedi's. Maul would shred him into pieces.

#10 Edited by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump.

I'll say Maul just to be controversial. So far, the reasons for Bane winning are either too vague or just inaccurate. Bane being more powerful is nice and all, but that hardly guarantees a victory. Undermining Maul's accomplishments or rank is a comparably weak basis for an argument seeing that bears no relevance on his training as a combatant, which, as sources have stated, rendered him one of the most combatively proficient Sith Lords in history. We need to do better than that.

Maul has speed feats that outstrip Bane's by a slight margin and has superior skill feats. I would consider Bane more powerful, by objective feat contrast, but typically, Bane's showings are evaluated with no regard to their contextual surroundings, as almost all of his best showings were done in accordance with some outside source of power not available in this thread.

Destroying the temple on Lehon? Bane was surged with so much climatic Force energy upon arriving on Lehon that he at first felt faint; Bane withdrawing for a few seconds to summon energies before hurling them at Kas'im and thereby destroying the temple was not under his own power. Disintegrating techno-beasts? Bane had the orbalisks at the time; the orbalisks tremendously amplify his powers. Fighting so fast he generated a dozen afterimages of his blade? Done with orbalisks. Scorching enemies to ash with Lightning? He only did so with the orbalisks; I feel it prudent to point out that in the same fight where he burned a drexl to ash with Lightning, Bane also withstood a fall from a thousand meters (IIRC) that left a monumental crater in the ground and walked away unharmed... Like I said, the orbalisks amplify his powers tremendously. Draining the life force of Andeddu's remnant disciples? Bane channeled the power of the temple itself to subsist his powers in that effort, without which he would've exhausted himself.

Really, most of Bane's most "ZOMG" moments were surrounded by some form of circumstantial element that would be considered were they read fairly or just recounted with better memory. In my case, I've been reciting Bane's feat of demolishing the Lehon temple for a few years now, but it's also been just as long since I read PoD. And my recollection of Bane's whole campaign there was absent a few important details, such as the fact that Lehon was a potent Force nexus that affected Bane immediately upon arrival there. Upon rereading that section, as I did some months ago, I noticed my mistake.

With that aside, concerning Bane's showings that were not dependent on external sources of power, Bane has telekinetically destroyed a campsite, absorbed the explosion of grenades, charred people to death with Lightning, released Force waves that crushed organs/bones of half a dozen attackers, killed Qordis with the Force, pulled the stone slab in Freedon Nadd's tomb, etc. All of these are very good, but none of these showings quite live up to the hype typically attributed to Bane's more bombastic displays.

I said before that Maul possesses speed feats that marginally overtake Bane's. Bane's speed showings include running a couple kilometers inside a minute, fighting invisibly fast, deflecting torrents of rain, waving his lightsaber quickly enough to formulate a shield out of his blurring motions, etc. All of these are good but not much faster than most other characters in Bane's speed class. I quoted and summarized many of Maul's best speed feats here and here. But just to parallel Bane's showings feat to feat:

Bane sprinting two kilometers inside a minute is good, but so is Maul leaping so fast he was invisible to holorecordings unless those holorecordings were slowed down. Bane fighting invisibly fast is alright, if ubiquitous among Force sensitives to fight faster than the vision of onlookers, but Maul has delivered consecutive blows so quickly an onlooker would be unable to tell which was released first. Bane deflecting torrents of rain is impressive, but so is Maul deflecting fire from a small army of droids and proceeding to carve up all of them, as well as on other occasions perceiving time in slow motion to "move between the moments." Bane brandishing his lightsaber fast enough to leave blurring trails that cover him like a shield is good, but Maul has replicated that feat verbatim.

To one-up Bane, Maul routinely performs practices which find him throwing ten thousand blows, a practice he repeats one hundred times each day, while still finding time for sleep, meditation, other exercises, and so on. He also once threw a thousand blows at a Togorian pirate to defeat him while stressed for time, no less. To give a more definite estimate of Maul's rapidity of motion, he can unleash five blows in the flicker of an eye. (All of these examples were described in more detail in the links provided above.) Maul has also, by Qui-Gon's own admission, moved quicker than Qui-Gon has, and Qui-Gon himself has duplicated many of Bane's speed feats, such as running in a blur, deflecting fire from several shooters, or furnishing a shield out of his lightsaber blade. Is Maul much faster than Bane? No. Would it change the course of a fight between them much? Probably not. But it is worth noting.

As a whole, I hardly see the gaping divide between Maul and Bane in most categories. Most physical characteristics more favor Maul than Bane, and fighting skill certainly passes to Maul. Bane's only legitimate advantage is power in the Force, but while that would be a factor, I don't recall Bane winning many duels solely on account of his power. He only defeated Kas'im by first escaping him, at which point, Kas'im paused the duel to gloat at Bane, which presented Bane the opportunity to hurl a Force attack at him. Bane never just instantly overpowered the Jedi in Belia Darzu's tomb with the Force either, and some of them (looking at you, Johun) were not so formidable as duelists or Force adepts anyway. Bane's powers may surface in a duel, but his ability to utilize his full power is hindered by the simultaneous lightsaber exchanges he deals with mid-duel. For that reason, fighting skill is probably a more pertinent matter to consider, and in that, Maul edges out. Having said that, it would be unfair to completely disregard Bane's powers, because he could potentially find an outlet for them during a fight with Maul, but at the same time, unlike others, I don't subscribe to the idea that Bane could just end the duel whenever he wants with a single Force attack. His power over Maul is not considerable enough for that.

(And if I really wanted to, I could probably make an argument for Maul's power not being too far behind Bane's based on the intrinsic power he is often suggested to have in stories like Restraint; after all, if we're willing to accept the consistently hyperbolic writing of Karpyshyn for Bane, I fail to see why one would find it unreasonable to accept the scarcely hyperbolic writing of Luceno for Maul. However, the only reason for me to do that would be to provoke further responses, which is unnecessary; I will say with honesty that I do see a power distinction between Maul and Bane, just not a sizable enough one to afford Bane an insta-win as other seems to imply is the case.)

I'll say Maul 6-7/10.

Come at me, bros.

#11 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
#12 Posted by Hyperlight (5836 posts) - - Show Bio

@silver2467:

im following you bruh.. I don't care what you say haha. I don't even like maul but what you said was pretty dope

#13 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio

@hyperlight: Well, thanks, but I really just wanted to build a case opposing the general consensus, mostly just because of a lack of substantial reasoning from the Bane supporters. I'm basically just trying to instigate a discussion by making remarks I think others would disagree with.

And for the record, when I say that the users who thought Bane would win made insubstantial cases, I don't mean to say that disrespectfully (JXM, DC, and Steelhound especially should know that I have every respect for their opinions). It's just that their decisions on the outcome, to me, weren't explained very thoroughly, but I didn't challenge their decisions to be offensive. JXM, for instance, I know could outline reasons for Bane winning if he really wanted to. For that matter, I could probably outline reasons for Bane winning if I really wanted to. It's just that no one seemed to be giving Maul much of a chance here, even though I think he could contend. A case could be built for either side. My stance, however, is that the cases built for Bane were inadequate, and the cases built for Maul were nonexistent due to lack of support for that side.

#14 Edited by Hyperlight (5836 posts) - - Show Bio

@silver2467:

im just giving you props for the info.. I know you aren't trying to be disrespectful.. which is great

#15 Posted by Obtrusive (1646 posts) - - Show Bio

I used to like darth maul until the clone wars cartoon gave him robot legs.

#16 Posted by dccomicsrule2011 (24853 posts) - - Show Bio

@silver2467: Hehehe, nice to see you back Silver :P I will have to think this one over, although as of right now I'm still leaning towards Bane. I will have a post up regarding this thread up in a bit.

#17 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio

@dccomicsrule2011: Nice to see you too, DC.

Cool. I'm interested in what you guys may have to say.

#18 Posted by Ostyo (7878 posts) - - Show Bio

Well anything can happen in a fight, but I give Bane win here due to better knowledge and understanding of the force.

Maul is a crafty one though.

#19 Edited by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio

Just so as to concretely establish some of the comments I posted pertaining to Bane's feats, allow me to quote the novels to solidify the conditions of Bane's context-sensitive showings.

For his destruction of the temple on Lehon, not only was Lehon itself a dark side nexus preponderant of Korriban, but the temple itself was so thick with dark side energies that Bane felt light-headed when he approached it (this also corrects my previous statement; Bane felt off his balance around the temple energies, not the energies of Lehon itself).

As soon as Bane’s feet touched the Unknown World’s surface he felt it: a deep thrumming, similar to what he’d first felt on Korriban but much, much stronger. Even the air felt different: heavy with ancient history and secrets long forgotten.

Bane couldn’t see more than a few meters ahead through the thick vegetation, but he knew they were close now. He could sense the power of the Temple, calling to him from behind the impenetrable curtain of tangled vines and twisted branches. Clamping down with the dark side, he crushed the last of the mighty rancor’s will to resist and urged it forward.

Suddenly they broke through into a clearing, a circle nearly one hundred meters across. In the very center stood the Rakatan Temple. The structure rose nearly twenty meters to the sky, a monument of carved rock and stone. The only entrance was a broad archway at the peak of an enormous staircase carved into an outside wall of the Temple itself. Its surface was pristine: stark and pure, unsullied by clinging moss or climbing ivy. The grounds surrounding it were barren but for a carpet of short, soft grass. It was as if the jungle feared to creep forward and reclaim the tainted stone.

Bane leapt down from his mount, all his attention focused on the structure towering before him. Freed from his power, the rancor turned and fled back into the undergrowth. The terrible crashing cacophony of its escape was overlaid with its tortured howls, but Bane noticed neither sound. He had no more use for the rancor; he had found what he was searching for.

He took a trembling step forward before stopping short. He shook his head to clear it. The dark side was strong here, so strong it made him feel light-headed. That meant this was a place of danger; he couldn’t afford to be wandering around in a stupor.

--Taken from Path of Destruction

Surrounded by these pervading energies, Bane concentrated Force energies available to him while Kas'im preached at him and then unleashed his blast.

On the landing high above Kas’im stood beneath the massive arch of the Temple entrance, staring down at him.

"I will follow you wherever you run," he said. "Wherever you go I will eventually find you and kill you. Don’t live your life in fear, Bane. Better to end it now."

"I agree," Bane replied, hurling out the wave of Force energy he had been gathering during the Blademaster’s speech.

There was nothing subtle about Bane’s attack: the massive shock wave shook the very foundations of the great Rakatan Temple. The concussive blast had enough power to shatter every bone in Kas’im’s body and pulverize his flesh into a mass of pulpy liquid. But at the last possible instant he threw up a shield to protect himself from the attack.

Unfortunately, he couldn’t shield the Temple around him. The walls exploded into great chunks of rubble. The archway collapsed in a shower of stone, burying Kas’im beneath tons of rock and mortar. A second later the rest of the roof caved in, drowning out the Twi’lek’s dying screams with a deafening rumble.

Bane watched the spectacle of the Temple’s implosion from the safety of the ground at the foot of the stairs. Billowing clouds of dust rolled out from the wreckage and down the stairs toward him. Exhausted by the long lightsaber battle and drained by the sudden unleashing of the Force, he simply lay there until he was covered in a layer of fine white powder.

--Taken from Path of Destruction

As Bane and Maul are not engaging one another in a location with such an intense dark side aura, nothing leads me to believe this feat should be attributed to Bane for the purposes of this thread.

Next, for his orbalisk-related showings, Bane has reduced beast riders to ash, fought fast enough to leave a trail of a dozen afterimages of his blade, and disintegrated techno-beasts. However, RoT goes out of its way to cement the fact that the orbalisk armor increases Bane's strength, speed, and power with the Force. Even after the orbalisks first attached themselves to Bane, Bane discovered an enhancement in his abilities.

In the moments after his escape from the orbalisk chamber, he'd tried prying the one on his chest loose with the hunting knife from his boot, to no avail. Failing that, he had tried to dig it out by carving away the surrounding flesh. He'd drawn the knife across his chest in a long, straight line, feeling the agony of the blade slicing deep enough to cut through skin and muscle. And then he'd watched in amazement as the wound healed itself almost instantly, the creature having somehow caused his tissue to regenerate.

Bane had tried the Force next, probing deep inside to better understand what was happening to him. He could sense the creatures feeding on his power, gorging themselves on the dark side energies coursing through every fiber and cell of his being. But though they were parasites, they were also giving something back. As they fed, they pumped a constant stream of chemicals into his body. The alien fluids burned like acid as they were absorbed into his circulatory system; it felt as if every drop of blood were boiling...but the benefits were too powerful to be ignored. In addition to his miraculous healing abilities, he felt stronger than he ever had. His senses were keener, his reflexes quicker.

And on his chest and back where the creatures had latched on, their virtually impenetrable shells would serve as armor plates capable of withstanding even a direct strike from a lightsaber.

The relationship, he had finally realized, was symbiotic—as long as he could endure the constant searing pain of the alien fluids being absorbed and metabolized in his bloodstream. A small price to pay, Bane had decided before turning his attention to the Holocron.

Through the gatekeeper, Bane learned of the Dark Master's experiments with the orbalisks, and his only partly successful efforts to control their power. He discovered not only what they were called, but also all the details of their ecology. Some of the information merely confirmed what he already knew: once attached to a host the orbalisks could not be removed. But he also learned that, in addition to boosting a host's physical abilities, it was possible to tap into the parasites' ability to feed on the dark side to greatly increase one's own command of the Force.

Bane reached inward to call upon the dark side, drawing it not only from himself but also from the orbalisks fastened to his chest and back.

Feeling an incredible surge of power beyond any he had known before, he released it in a burst of energy. The hallucinations that had plagued his wounded mind ever since the detonation of the thought bomb vanished, instantly and utterly annihilated by his newfound power. He was stronger now than he ever had been, and he knew the visions of the dead Sith would haunt him no more.

One of the drexl's feet lunged forward to impale him with its enormous claws, only to be deflected by the impenetrable orbalisk carapace on his chest. Instead of being skewered and carried away, Bane was sent flying backward by the momentum of the creature's dive. He hit the ground and rolled several times before springing back to his feet, uninjured thanks to his newfound physical prowess.

Bane claimed the orbalisks enhanced his power, granting him unnatural strength and healing abilities. Yet witnessing the aftermath of his failure with the Holocron, Zannah wondered at what cost those abilities came. What use was greater power if it could not be controlled?

It was inevitable she would one day challenge him for the title of Sith Master, but Bane was incredibly strong—both physically and in the Force. Encased in a suit of living armor that augmented his powers and protected him from virtually all known weapons, he was nearly invincible.

--Taken from Rule of Two

That point clear, Bane's Lightning left its targets in ashes and charred husks, in a fight where Bane also survives an impact from hundreds of meters with injuries that recovered within moments (and in fairness again, he was not totally unharmed, as I said before; so correction on my part there too).

Bane didn't take the time to revel in the fear of his fallen enemies. Before they even hit the ground he'd turned his attention to the third opponent, unleashing a storm of Sith lightning that reduced the riders to ash and the drexl into a hunk of charred and smoking flesh that dropped from the sky.

With a single thought Bane directed his mount's attention to the lone remaining flier team...a tactical error on his part. For even though its riders had been slain, the second drexl was still alive. Acting on primal instinct, it had veered back to attack the unfamiliar male invading its territory.

The riderless drexl slammed into Bane's flier the exact instant he engaged the final team. The three beasts intertwined with one another, becoming a single, screaming mass of flesh, claws, and teeth hurtling toward the ground below. A spray of hot, foamy blood splashed across Bane's face as the creatures ripped one another apart. For a brief instant he glimpsed one of the other riders through the flailing wings and limbs of their mounts, her features frozen as she realized they were all tumbling toward a gruesome and inescapable end.

Bane released his hold on the drexl's mind and concentrated his awareness on the terror of the other three riders. He drank in their fear, using it to fuel his own emotions. He focused his power and channeled it through the orbalisks, letting them gorge themselves on the dark side. In return they pumped a fresh dose of adrenaline and hormones into his blood, allowing him to generate even more power in a cycle he repeated over and over until the moment before impact.

Zannah saw the last three flying creatures lock onto one another. As they dropped from the sky, spiraling down faster and faster, she watched them, waiting for one to break free and mount back up to the heavens. None ever did.

She screamed in horror as they all slammed into the ground together. The sound of the crash was like an explosion; the shock wave knocked Zannah off her feet and launched a great cloud of dust and debris into the air. The cloud rolled quickly over the ground to envelop her.

The would-be Sith apprentice struggled to rise, coughing and choking as small chunks of dirt and stone rained down on her. Through the haze she stared in wonder at the twenty-meter-wide, two-meter-deep crater left behind. In the center was a gore-covered mountain of pulverized flesh: the individual bodies of mounts and riders compacted into a single pulpy, quivering mass. And walking toward her from the carnage was the bloodsoaked form of her Master.

He was limping and hunched over, with one arm clutched at his side. Yet even through the obscuring dust Zannah recognized him immediately. She could only stare in utter disbelief as he drew nearer, his gait becoming more sure and steady with every stride. With each step he stood taller and straighter, and when he let his arm fall away from his side, her heart began to pound with excitement.

Darth Bane was alive! And the power that had let him survive this incredible ordeal—the power of the dark side—would one day be hers to command! Overcome with emotion, she stepped forward to embrace her Master...only to recoil when she saw the alien growth protruding from his chest.

"They are called orbalisks," Bane said, offering an explanation rather than a greeting. "Creatures that feed on the power of the dark side. Without them I could never have survived what you just witnessed." He gasped faintly as he spoke, though whether from pain or the recent exertion of using the Force—or possibly both—she couldn't tell.

He stopped in front of her, and Zannah reached out slowly to touch the cold, hard shell. She pulled her hand back with a start when she felt it twitch beneath her fingers.

"They feel the power of the dark side within you " Bane said, speaking like a proud father.

"How do you get them off?" Zannah asked, her question an equal measure of curiosity and revulsion.

"I don't," Bane replied. "This armor is permanent."

"Will I have to wear them, too?" she asked softly.

Bane considered before replying. "The orbalisks give me great power, but there is a cost. The physical demands can be...taxing. It would be too much for you to bear as a child. Maybe too much for you to ever bear."

--Taken from Rule of Two

A decade later, after the orbalisks encased the majority of Bane's body, Bane struck at Zannah fast enough that he appeared as if he swung a dozen lightsabers.

When it was over her Master turned to face her. She waited for him to demand an explanation, but instead he let loose with a cry and flew at her. Zannah barely had time to ignite her twin blades to meet his completely unexpected attack.

She fell into a defensive posture as she so often had during their training sessions. But this was no drill, and her Master came at her with a speed and ferocity she had never faced before. Giving in to his orbalisk-fueled bloodrage, he was like a wild animal, raining savage blows down on her from all angles, the strikes coming so fast it seemed as if he wielded a dozen blades at the same time. Zannah fell into a full retreat, desperately giving ground beneath the overwhelming assault.

--Taken from Rule of Two

And he also atomized techno-beasts in Darzu's temple, once again under the influence of the orbalisks.

As his fingers closed over the Holocron he heard a noise that caused him to pull his hand back with a start. It sounded like the moan of a long-dead god rising from the grave; a hundred mechanized limbs sprang to action with an angry hum as the monsters swarmed over him.

Bane thrust out with the Force, and a dozen of the oncoming creatures exploded into dust and tiny flecks of small, twisted metal. But the others surged forward like a wave, driving him under. Their feet stomped and kicked at him; their bladed arms slashed at him as he lay prone on the floor. But none of their attacks could pierce the chitinous shells of his orbalisk armor.

--Taken from Rule of Two

As Bane is not stipulated to wear the orbalisk armor in the OP, none of these showings can be considered valid in this situation either.

Lastly, for Bane employing a form of Drain against Andeddu's disciples:

Despite their numbers, Bane instantly realized they posed no real threat. Though they worshiped one of the ancient Sith, these were ordinary men and women. The Force did not flow through their veins; they were nothing but fodder. Their fury might be fueled by the dark side energies emanating from the temple, but Bane could just as easily draw upon the same power, letting it build until he unleashed it against his foes.

A decade earlier he would have eagerly engaged them in physical combat, his body pumped full of adrenaline released by the orbalisks that had covered his flesh. Swept up in a mindless rage, he would have carved a bloody swath through their numbers, hacking and slashing at his helpless enemies while relying on the impenetrable shells of the orbalisks to protect him from their blows. But the orbalisks were gone now. He was no longer invulnerable to physical attacks, yet he was also no longer a slave to the primal bloodlust that used to overwhelm him. Free from the parasitic infestation, he was able to dispatch his enemies using the Force rather than relying solely on brute strength.

Bane extinguished his weapon and stood perfectly still, allowing the swarming horde to close in on him as he gathered his strength. He called upon the power of the temple itself, feeding on it to bolster his own abilities as he created a deadly field around his body. It began as a tight circle, but quickly spread outward until it extended to a radius of ten meters, with the Sith Lord at the center. The air within the circumference of the field suddenly became darker, as if the light from the red sun above had been suddenly dimmed.

Cloaked in the shadowy gloom, Bane simply held his ground against the enemy assault. The front ranks of onrushing cultists shrieked in agony as they entered the field, their life essence violently sucked out of their bodies, aging them a thousand years in only a few seconds. Muscles and tendons atrophied instantaneously; their skin withered and shrank, pulling tight across their bones. Eyes and tongues shriveled, turning them into mummified husks before their desiccated flesh crumbled away, leaving only skeletal remains and a few strands of hair.

The effort of creating an aura of pure dark side energy would have quickly exhausted even Bane. However, as his enemies fell he was able to draw their essence into himself, feeding on their energies to revitalize his fading strength and reinforcing the field in preparation for the next wave of victims.

--Taken from Dynasty of Evil

Bane equipping himself with the energies of the tempe does not lend itself to application apart from that setting.

Since this is mostly a post conveying a point of refutation, I'll post some feats that Bane can accomplish under normal circumstances a little later. It would only be fair since I've spent so much time discrediting his other accomplishments.

#20 Posted by ShootingNova (17110 posts) - - Show Bio

@silver2467: Haven't seen you in a while. But then again, I've hardly been on, though it's still nice to see you.

I could probably be more lenient and give Maul the edge as far as physical lightsaber combat goes, but it probably wouldn't be enough to give Maul the victory. Bane was able to prevent himself from being killed without against Zannah when he was lacking a lightsaber. Of course, that's not the best comparison as Zannah is used to defensive techniques and counterstrikes as opposed to being the aggressor, but she's at least comparable to Bane. And in this scenario, Bane does have a lightsaber, so he could utilize Soresu to hold for at least some time if Maul's aggression is too much for him. Then, he still has his lightning cocoon which would throw both him and Maul backward, giving him some distance.

To be honest, any advantages Maul has would be attributed to either Bane's lack of effective showings without external aid or just because Maul actually trained exclusively for such physical qualities, while Bane doesn't spend so much time for those things. You could probably compare his rain deflection feat to Maul's thousand-blows in rapid succession, but Bane hasn't really done anything like get stranded for a month with only assassin droids for company only for the sake of training.

Force-wise, Bane wins a pretty big majority of the time, although by no means is it a landslide victory. Again, if he had more feats excluding any form of aid or advantage it would be probably be more clear in regards to his victory. Also, the numerous Force techniques Bane was stating in the Book of Sith, such as convection, drain and cryokinesis could very well be abilities he actually can put into practice, in fact its quite likely that is the case. Its not absolutely certain, but I don't think it would be likely for him to know such Force powers and lack the ability to use them.

And is this CW Maul? Since I believe if it isn't stated, the current versions (or at least, the most recent versions) are being used.

#21 Posted by Saren (25674 posts) - - Show Bio

Bane does refer to such knowledge as his "legacy" in the Book of Sith and then says it is imperative for a Sith Lord to learn them and then pass them down to their apprentice; those words coming from him would suggest that he did know how to use them and then taught Zannah.

Of course, those notes aren't actually feats. They imply knowledge, but not necessarily the level of competence at application.

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#22 Edited by ShootingNova (17110 posts) - - Show Bio

@citizenbane: I think they imply his ability to use them, just not his mastery (which I doubt).

Maul's inability to deal with Drain could prove troublesome for him, but I suspect convection, cryokinesis and so forth aren't going to be of much help in this scenario.

Also, would you happen to know if this is CW Maul or not, as of the rules?

#23 Posted by Saren (25674 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova: If it's not stated, it's the most recent version. But you could argue CW Maul as an additional hypothetical if you wished.

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#24 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio

@silver2467: Haven't seen you in a while. But then again, I've hardly been on, though it's still nice to see you.

I have been absent for a while. And likewise.

I could probably be more lenient and give Maul the edge as far as physical lightsaber combat goes, but it probably wouldn't be enough to give Maul the victory. Bane was able to prevent himself from being killed without against Zannah when he was lacking a lightsaber. Of course, that's not the best comparison as Zannah is used to defensive techniques and counterstrikes as opposed to being the aggressor, but she's at least comparable to Bane. And in this scenario, Bane does have a lightsaber, so he could utilize Soresu to hold for at least some time if Maul's aggression is too much for him.

It's not a good comparison because Zannah is not as prolific a lightsaber master as Maul is in the first place. Besides, I fail to see why we would champion Bane's unarmed performance against Zannah as the rule when their later confrontation saw the two crossing blades with relative parity between them. Obviously, Bane is resourceful if he can evade Zannah unarmed, but he was in no position to beat her, only survive her attack and escape. Additionally, Bane survived that encounter due to his intimate knowledge of Zannah's combat technique and due to keeping Zannah off-balance by exploiting his Force reserves, and Bane has a propensity for finding it difficult to conjure Force powers while concurrently crossing blades with an enemy. He can project Force attacks mid-duel but not with the efficiency or raw explosive power he has when using them in a scenario where his attention is not split between casting his mind into the Force and scrutinizing his enemy.

Then, he still has his lightning cocoon which would throw both him and Maul backward, giving him some distance.

Which is cool and all, but that attack never even properly winded Zannah very well, and Maul is significantly more physically tough than Zannah based on his sundry feats of pain tolerance, healing, and durability, as well as his general Zabrak physiology as compared with a human. Not to mention, that power never manifested itself in a straight duel. So...

To be honest, any advantages Maul has would be attributed to either Bane's lack of effective showings without external aid or just because Maul actually trained exclusively for such physical qualities, while Bane doesn't spend so much time for those things.

I don't think that's true at all. Bane is a physical powerhouse, and he has spent a considerable amount of time perfecting himself physically. And frankly, dismissing Maul's advantages because of a lack of showings on Bane's part is hardly an acceptable refutation. We have plenty of instances of Bane in combative settings and in settings where he simply flaunts power. By this line of argumentation, I could say that the only reason Bane has an advantage in TK is because of Maul's lack of effective showings in that area; we have not, after all, ever seen Maul cut loose with his powers before, as we have Bane.

Force-wise, Bane wins a pretty big majority of the time, although by no means is it a landslide victory. Again, if he had more feats excluding any form of aid or advantage it would be probably be more clear in regards to his victory.

I really have no idea why you think Bane lacks feats. Bane has a plethora of showings where he does not internalize an external source of power. The reason I went to exhaustive lengths to analyze the showings where he does is because people typically reference those showings in these threads on account of them being Bane's most impressive feats, and I wanted to circumvent the contextomy and just discuss valid feats instead. By no means whatsoever is Bane lacking in physical, combat, or power feats, and the various feats of unaided power Bane does have supersede Maul's in my own estimation, as I said before.

Also, the numerous Force techniques Bane was stating in the Book of Sith, such as convection, drain and cryokinesis could very well be abilities he actually can put into practice, in fact its quite likely that is the case. Its not absolutely certain, but I don't think it would be likely for him to know such Force powers and lack the ability to use them.

Well, if I'm nitpicking, Bane actually said that Drain is nearly impossible to apply in a duel, but I digress with that point, seeing as I have already addressed the fact that Bane's only feat with Drain required him sustaining his powers with outside support. Regardless, even granting that Bane does possess all of the powers he listed in his entry in Book of Sith (which itself is speculative, but I'll leave that alone), the fact that none of these powers ever surfaced during any of his fights is telling. Bane's standard MO for offensive Force powers mid-duel is TK, Lightning, and...not much else. He has just never evinced much effective utility for many other powers, whether he knows them or not.

Besides, if we're considering every objective statement about a Force technique from a Sith Lord in Book of Sith as proof that they know that technique, then next Palpatine vs thread that pops up, I plan on saying that Sidious can crush a walker by virtue of him saying that a master of Force Choke could do that in BoS. :P

And is this CW Maul? Since I believe if it isn't stated, the current versions (or at least, the most recent versions) are being used.

Battle forum rules are not retroactive. This is the version of Maul that was current when the thread was created, not what's current now.

With that said, I was actually planning on writing out a separate OP that stipulated TCW Maul vs Bane after TPM Maul vs Bane ran its course.

#25 Posted by Saren (25674 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah, my bad, this is Maul as he was a year and 1 month ago.

Moderator
#26 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio

Bane does refer to such knowledge as his "legacy" in the Book of Sith and then says it is imperative for a Sith Lord to learn them and then pass them down to their apprentice; those words coming from him would suggest that he did know how to use them and then taught Zannah.

Hmm... Interesting.

#27 Posted by laflux (15920 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova: If it's not stated, it's the most recent version. But you could argue CW Maul as an additional hypothetical if you wished.

Battle forum rules are not retroactive. This is the version of Maul that was current when the thread was created, not what's current now.

With that said, I was actually planning on writing out a separate OP that stipulated TCW Maul vs Bane after TPM Maul vs Bane ran its course.

Yeah, my bad, this is Maul as he was a year and 1 month ago.

Aren't Moderators supposed to know that stuff?

#28 Posted by ComicStooge (12817 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux said:

@citizenbane said:

@shootingnova: If it's not stated, it's the most recent version. But you could argue CW Maul as an additional hypothetical if you wished.

@silver2467 said:

Battle forum rules are not retroactive. This is the version of Maul that was current when the thread was created, not what's current now.

With that said, I was actually planning on writing out a separate OP that stipulated TCW Maul vs Bane after TPM Maul vs Bane ran its course.

@citizenbane said:

Yeah, my bad, this is Maul as he was a year and 1 month ago.

Aren't Moderators supposed to know that stuff?

Eh, they forget things and make mistakes the same way anyone does.

#29 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio

That reminds me...

@citizenbane: Congrats on becoming a mod, CB. These forums could use someone like you as a mod.

#30 Posted by laflux (15920 posts) - - Show Bio
#31 Posted by Saren (25674 posts) - - Show Bio
Moderator
#32 Edited by ShootingNova (17110 posts) - - Show Bio
@silver2467 said:

It's not a good comparison because Zannah is not as prolific a lightsaber master as Maul is in the first place. Besides, I fail to see why we would champion Bane's unarmed performance against Zannah as the rule when their later confrontation saw the two crossing blades with relative parity between them. Obviously, Bane is resourceful if he can evade Zannah unarmed, but he was in no position to beat her, only survive her attack and escape. Additionally, Bane survived that encounter due to his intimate knowledge of Zannah's combat technique and due to keeping Zannah off-balance by exploiting his Force reserves, and Bane has a propensity for finding it difficult to conjure Force powers while concurrently crossing blades with an enemy. He can project Force attacks mid-duel but not with the efficiency or raw explosive power he has when using them in a scenario where his attention is not split between casting his mind into the Force and scrutinizing his enemy.

I wasn't really pointing out his ability to win, I was just saying he could at least evade Maul (even if it was only briefly). What I was trying to say was that Maul's physical advantages would not be of such a degree that there's no hope for Bane. If he is capable of using a few force powers even for the sake of disruption, I do believe he could hold his own, at least for a while

Which is cool and all, but that attack never even properly winded Zannah very well, and Maul is significantly more physically tough than Zannah based on his sundry feats of pain tolerance, healing, and durability, as well as his general Zabrak physiology as compared with a human. Not to mention, that power never manifested itself in a straight duel. So...

The purpose of its use was more for disruption, not for physically overwhelming them. It was meant to be able to create enough distance for recovery, or for Bane to focus on using another Force power, if he manages to make the time.

I don't think that's true at all. Bane is a physical powerhouse, and he has spent a considerable amount of time perfecting himself physically. And frankly, dismissing Maul's advantages because of a lack of showings on Bane's part is hardly an acceptable refutation. We have plenty of instances of Bane in combative settings and in settings where he simply flaunts power. By this line of argumentation, I could say that the only reason Bane has an advantage in TK is because of Maul's lack of effective showings in that area; we have not, after all, ever seen Maul cut loose with his powers before, as we have Bane.

I'm not saying Bane didn't train himself to be a physical monster, I'm saying Bane hasn't gone to such extremes so as to strand himself for a month with only assassin droids for company, for example. Maul has trained more significantly for the purpose of excessive physical quality. I did say Bane's rain deflection feat was comparable, especially if he did it on a regular basis, but it's just that he has never actually starved himself for a month and fought off assassin droids all the while for the sake of training.

I really have no idea why you think Bane lacks feats. Bane has a plethora of showings where he does not internalize an external source of power. The reason I went to exhaustive lengths to analyze the showings where he does is because people typically reference those showings in these threads on account of them being Bane's most impressive feats, and I wanted to circumvent the contextomy and just discuss valid feats instead. By no means whatsoever is Bane lacking in physical, combat, or power feats, and the various feats of unaided power Bane does have supersede Maul's in my own estimation, as I said before

Not so much that he lacks feats, more like he should have more. I don't like how he makes note of so many Force techniques and so forth but hasn't even demonstrated them in the slightest.

Well, if I'm nitpicking, Bane actually said that Drain is nearly impossible to apply in a duel, but I digress with that point, seeing as I have already addressed the fact that Bane's only feat with Drain required him sustaining his powers with outside support. Regardless, even granting that Bane does possess all of the powers he listed in his entry in Book of Sith (which itself is speculative, but I'll leave that alone), the fact that none of these powers ever surfaced during any of his fights is telling. Bane's standard MO for offensive Force powers mid-duel is TK, Lightning, and...not much else. He has just never evinced much effective utility for many other powers, whether he knows them or not.

Besides, if we're considering every objective statement about a Force technique from a Sith Lord in Book of Sith as proof that they know that technique, then next Palpatine vs thread that pops up, I plan on saying that Sidious can crush a walker by virtue of him saying that a master of Force Choke could do that in BoS. :P

Bane's commented that Force Drain was nearly impossible to apply practically, and that it would exhaust him quickly to create a Death Field. However, if he was able to feed off his opponent's essence, he would be capable of revitalizing himself once more.

"The effort of creating an aura of pure dark side energy would have quickly exhausted even Bane. However, as his enemies fell he was able to draw their essence into himself, feeding on their energies to revitalize his fading strength and reinforcing the field in preparation for the next wave of victims."

Taken From Dynasty of Evil
What's more of a question is the effect of said technique on Maul. If it's successful, it would tip the scales.
About Palpatine's comment, I'm gonna actually assume that its quite possible, and that he could actually do that. It's kinda silly to me if you boast about such things being possible and you lack the power to do that yourself. Especially if its Palpatine. LOL.

Battle forum rules are not retroactive. This is the version of Maul that was current when the thread was created, not what's current now.

With that said, I was actually planning on writing out a separate OP that stipulated TCW Maul vs Bane after TPM Maul vs Bane ran its course.

Okay. To be honest, I was glad when TCW Maul was begging for mercy. I hated how he was, I don't know why but it's just a lot worse. Do you Palpatine killed him? The novelization made it clear that Maul's existence was "perfectly meaningless" to Palpatine, while in the show it appears he kidnapped Maul for his own purposes. With the show over, I'm not really sure what Maul would be doing. I mean, of course Palpatine uses pawns a lot, I just don't think he needed Maul at that stage. I could be wrong, though.

Also, are you gonna post up your list of Bane's feats? I probably know them all, but I seriously cannot be bothered remembering them all/posting them again, LOL. I just want to see your list, since they often trigger my memory.
#33 Posted by dccomicsrule2011 (24853 posts) - - Show Bio

@silver2467: Okay. Sorry for the wait, but I can be lazy at times. D=

Let's get somethings out of the way before I start; Maul is hands down the better duelist then Bane, I don't think anyone can argue that point, neither can one argue for Bane being faster, deflecting a torrent of rain drops for 10 minutes straight without getting a drop on his person is impressive, sure, but Maul has been able to deflect mach speed blaster bolts from a miniature army of droids.

Overall Bane's deflecting a torrent of rain is a great endurance/speed feat, but Mauls feat supersedes it. You have already covered the rest so I'm not going to do a side by side comparison (the only reason i did this one is because Nova said Bane's rain deflecting feat could surpass Maul's feat, which, I disagree with.)

On to dueling, Bane has no feats that outmatch Mauls, (who has taken Qui Gon-Jinn and padawan Obi-Wan simultaneously) IIRC, didn't he beat Obi-Wan again in the Clone Wars? =O Could be wrong about that but I vaguely remember it happening. Regardless of him beating Obi-Wan or not his skill showing still out rank Bane who has beaten no one worthy of mentioning via pure saber skills alone. I'm not even going to mentioned whatshisname from the Sith Academy on Korriban because he was nothing more then fodder. Bane could definitely hold his own against Maul in a duel, but he would ultimately lose nearly every time

Now the reason I think Bane could possibly take the majority is his power in the Force. Bane TK feats surpasses Maul and he a very adroit user of Force Lighting (though the latter can be negated via Maul's lightsaber)

Granted you have stated before that Bane has never used his powers while crossing simultaneously, but it's possible for Bane to retreat if (more like when) Maul get's the upper-hand in the duel to then rely on his Force abilities.

As @shootingnova already stated, Bane was able to defend himself from Zannah while he was unarmed, too me,that suggest when Maul starts to get the upper hand in the duel, Bane should be able to buy some space between the two since he was able to do it un-armed against Zannah, while he has a lightsaber here. Granted, Maul is a better duelist then Zannah and his style is much more aggressive, I still say Bane could find some space to use his Force techniques.

I would add much more but I'm kinda lazy right now. =/

For now I give Bane the slight majority 6/10

#34 Edited by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova said:

I wasn't really pointing out his ability to win, I was just saying he could at least evade Maul (even if it was only briefly). What I was trying to say was that Maul's physical advantages would not be of such a degree that there's no hope for Bane. If he is capable of using a few force powers even for the sake of disruption, I do believe he could hold his own, at least for a while

Well, certainly. I never meant to insinuate that Bane could not hold his own, but forcing Maul to work for a victory doesn't mean Maul won't win a majority.

@shootingnova said:
The purpose of its use was more for disruption, not for physically overwhelming them. It was meant to be able to create enough distance for recovery, or for Bane to focus on using another Force power, if he manages to make the time.

Which, again, is a...passable tactic, I suppose, but as I said before, I am not of the persuasion that Bane could just defeat Maul with a single Force attack if he so found an ideal opportunity to deliver one. Not only would it require Bane multiple Force attacks to drop Maul, but the likelihood that Bane could initiate multiple Force attacks before Maul reaches him again is minimal.

@shootingnova said:

I'm not saying Bane didn't train himself to be a physical monster, I'm saying Bane hasn't gone to such extremes so as to strand himself for a month with only assassin droids for company, for example. Maul has trained more significantly for the purpose of excessive physical quality. I did say Bane's rain deflection feat was comparable, especially if he did it on a regular basis, but it's just that he has never actually starved himself for a month and fought off assassin droids all the while for the sake of training.

All right, but that does nothing to diminish my point. If it's permissible for you to speculate on Bane drawing on powers during the duel that he has never even demonstrated before based on BoS, it should then be permissible for me to speculate on the parameters of Maul's telekinetic raw power based on the ease with which he achieved his TK feats and his potential power. Problem with this line of reasoning is that it descends into conjecture neither of us can sufficiently prove and could just become a matter of both of us being too stubborn to concede a simple point. We should rely on information we can prove, not on information we can flimsily offer that would only leads us farther away from reaching common ground.

@shootingnova said:

Not so much that he lacks feats, more like he should have more. I don't like how he makes note of so many Force techniques and so forth but hasn't even demonstrated them in the slightest.

Even assuming that Bane does possess all of the powers he listed in BoS (which I am still unconvinced of), Bane has limits, which he himself has admitted to before. One of the reasons I find it dubious that Bane has mastered all of the techniques he listed is because among them were listed telepathic powers, which Bane said he had a limited affinity for. And that besides, simply because he is aware of the disciplines of certain techniques hardly concludes him to be a paragon in their operation. As CB said, all Bane's entry on dark side powers denotes is knowledge, not feats.

@shootingnova said:

Bane's commented that Force Drain was nearly impossible to apply practically, and that it would exhaust him quickly to create a Death Field. However, if he was able to feed off his opponent's essence, he would be capable of revitalizing himself once more.

"The effort of creating an aura of pure dark side energy would have quickly exhausted even Bane. However, as his enemies fell he was able to draw their essence into himself, feeding on their energies to revitalize his fading strength and reinforcing the field in preparation for the next wave of victims."

Taken From Dynasty of Evil
What's more of a question is the effect of said technique on Maul. If it's successful, it would tip the scales.

I fail entirely to see why you would think that if Drain is, by Bane's admission, virtually impossible to utilize in a fight that he would somehow manage to utilize it against Maul. When was the last time Bane employed Drain during a duel? That we know of from the Bane trilogy? Never. So why would he somehow succeed to do so here, especially against an opponent as fierce as Maul?

That quote from DoE also overlooks context. I posted the full showing before, and Bane made himself a conduit for the inherent power in Andeddu's temple simply to create his Death Field. Not only that, but its creation and expansion was not an instantaneous process anyway. I think I can say rather dogmatically that Death Field will not find its way into a duel with Maul.

@shootingnova said:
About Palpatine's comment, I'm gonna actually assume that its quite possible, and that he could actually do that. It's kinda silly to me if you boast about such things being possible and you lack the power to do that yourself. Especially if its Palpatine. LOL.

An argument could be built that Palpatine could crush a walker's fuel tank, but you really can't develop that argument from his comments in BoS alone. You would need to extrapolate from his telekinetic accomplishments elsewhere in conjunction with that to make a plausible case. The reason I mentioned that at all was to illustrate that an acknowledgement of the potential for a Force feat being done is not translatable to actually doing it. More to the point, in Bane's case, not only did he not list outright feats with the Force techniques he explicated, but some of those techniques are simply not in his areas of expertise.

@shootingnova said:

Okay. To be honest, I was glad when TCW Maul was begging for mercy. I hated how he was, I don't know why but it's just a lot worse. Do you Palpatine killed him? The novelization made it clear that Maul's existence was "perfectly meaningless" to Palpatine, while in the show it appears he kidnapped Maul for his own purposes. With the show over, I'm not really sure what Maul would be doing. I mean, of course Palpatine uses pawns a lot, I just don't think he needed Maul at that stage. I could be wrong, though.

Also, are you gonna post up your list of Bane's feats? I probably know them all, but I seriously cannot be bothered remembering them all/posting them again, LOL. I just want to see your list, since they often trigger my memory.

He definitely captured Maul but for reasons that have so far not been explained.

I will. Give me time. Right now, I'm responding to counterarguments.

@dccomicsrule2011 said:

@silver2467: Okay. Sorry for the wait, but I can be lazy at times. D=

Let's get somethings out of the way before I start; Maul is hands down the better duelist then Bane, I don't think anyone can argue that point, neither can one argue for Bane being faster, deflecting a torrent of rain drops for 10 minutes straight without getting a drop on his person is impressive, sure, but Maul has been able to deflect mach speed blaster bolts from a miniature army of droids.

Overall Bane's deflecting a torrent of rain is a great endurance/speed feat, but Mauls feat supersedes it. You have already covered the rest so I'm not going to do a side by side comparison (the only reason i did this one is because Nova said Bane's rain deflecting feat could surpass Maul's feat, which, I disagree with.)

On to dueling, Bane has no feats that outmatch Mauls, (who has taken Qui Gon-Jinn and padawan Obi-Wan simultaneously) IIRC, didn't he beat Obi-Wan again in the Clone Wars? =O Could be wrong about that but I vaguely remember it happening. Regardless of him beating Obi-Wan or not his skill showing still out rank Bane who has beaten no one worthy of mentioning via pure saber skills alone. I'm not even going to mentioned whatshisname from the Sith Academy on Korriban because he was nothing more then fodder. Bane could definitely hold his own against Maul in a duel, but he would ultimately lose nearly every time

Alright.

As for Maul vs Obi-Wan, Maul and Savage's duel with Obi-Wan and Ventress benefitted the brothers more, according to Sith Hunters. Maul also Choked Obi-Wan out in Sith Hunters as well. But their other duel, when Obi-Wan fought alongside Adi Gallia, expressed more equality. Personally, I think you can conclude very definitely that TCW Maul is more powerful than Obi-Wan and a comparable duelist, based on their exchanges.

Sure, but how many duels has Bane won on account of TK or Lightning? A bloodlusted Maul will not be as stupid as Kas'im to boast about humbling Bane only to be killed by a Force attack. That I remain unconvinced that Bane could kill Maul with one Force attack as he did against Kas'im (where Bane was amped anyway) only further undermines my confidence in this tactic.

@dccomicsrule2011 said:

Granted you have stated before that Bane has never used his powers while crossing simultaneously, but it's possible for Bane to retreat if (more like when) Maul get's the upper-hand in the duel to then rely on his Force abilities.

As @shootingnova already stated, Bane was able to defend himself from Zannah while he was unarmed, too me,that suggest when Maul starts to get the upper hand in the duel, Bane should be able to buy some space between the two since he was able to do it un-armed against Zannah, while he has a lightsaber here. Granted, Maul is a better duelist then Zannah and his style is much more aggressive, I still say Bane could find some space to use his Force techniques.

Honestly, this comparison, in my opinion, is both weak and titanically overblown. The reason Bane could toss around Force attacks against Zannah while he was unarmed is precisely for that reason: he was unarmed. Really, have you noticed how it is that Bane exhibited Force attacks during his duel with Zannah on Ambria fewer times than he did against her when he was unarmed? The reason for that is because when unarmed, all his attention can be directed toward eluding Zannah through use of the Force exclusively; whereas, when armed, he measured both a dexterous use of his lightsaber with a talent for the Force. Mid-combat, the entrance of Bane's offensive powers into a duel is stressed by the onslaught of an aggressive and more skillful duelist. Zannah is neither as skilled nor as aggressive as Maul, as you pointed out. Maul practices Juyo, and he is bloodlusted. Evading him would not only be hard for Bane, but he also would be required to ensure that his defensive maneuvers suffice to parry Maul's blows.

As well, you're actually misappropriating Bane's unarmed performance against Zannah if that encounter is to be interpreted correctly. Your argument is that Bane will capitalize on a chance to separate himself from Maul so as to focus on defeating Maul through Force attacks. However, in Bane's unarmed fight with Zannah, even when Bane succeeded in distancing himself from Zannah, he never defeated her through a Force attack; he fled. So my question is this: If your case points to Bane's first fight with Zannah in DoE as a pattern that could be followed in this thread against Maul, why are we not reading that fight with Zannah as it actually happened? What happened against Zannah was that Bane spat out Force attacks as well as he could to avoid Zannah, but then once he avoided her, he didn't bide his powers to release them against her to kill her. He ran. In this thread, why is it we think Bane could feasibly defeat Maul with Force attacks from a distance, but Bane didn't seem to think that was feasible against Zannah in DoE? And this is why the comparison doesn't make sense. I understand that your point is: if an unarmed Bane could fare that well against Zannah because of his Force powers, then he could transcend that performance when armed, and my point is: no he couldn't. Utilizing Force attacks is easier for Bane when he is not preoccupied with adroitly using his lightsaber; handling both his lightsaber and a Force attack at once impedes the Force attack.

On top of that, Bane is a Djem So master and is bloodlusted; his trained method of approach, even under his normal mindset, will be to duel Maul aggressively, not defend himself and look for an opening for a Force blow to interfere the course of the duel. And whatever Force power he may send Maul's way is not guaranteed to have much lasting effect. Using Force attacks mid-combat is just not as easy for Bane or for most characters, honestly. There are many characters who have a noted aptitude for applying the Force mid-duel, but many, such as Bane, don't. For that reason, lightsaber combat has always been a more relevant issue when discussing most characters and here, notably Bane. Lightsaber combat leans heavily in Maul's favor; Force power leans somewhat in Bane's. The opposing advantages are not so balanced. Maul has a wider skill advantage than Bane does a power advantage. And skill will be the more decisive factor when considering the outcome. For that reason, I would still benefit Maul more often than not.

So far, I still don't really see why everyone is so predisposed to favoring Bane, but nonetheless, I appreciate the more thoughtful answers.

#35 Edited by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio

Feats for Bane. There are others, but these are some of the highlights, to me.

Bane charges his energies to enter a brief burst of speed wherein he performs a few actions in an eyeblink and fights invisibly fast.

When the Zabrak’s desperation turned to hopelessness, every impulse in Bane screamed with the desire to take the initiative and end the fight. Instead he let the tantalizing closeness of Sirak’s defeat feed his appetite for vengeance. The hunger grew with each passing second until it became a physical pain tearing away at his insides: the dark side filled him and he felt it on the verge of ripping him apart, splitting his skin and gushing out like a fountain of black blood.

He waited until the last possible second before unleashing the energy bottled up inside him in a tremendous rush of power. He channeled it through his muscles and limbs, moving so fast it seemed as if time had stopped for the rest of the world. In the blink of an eye he knocked the saber from Sirak’s hand, sliced down to shatter his forearm, then spun through and brought his saber crashing into his opponent’s lower leg. It splintered under the impact and Sirak screamed as a shard of gleaming white bone sliced through muscle, sinew, and finally skin.

For an instant none of the spectators was even aware of what had happened; it took their minds a moment to catch up and register the blur of action that had occurred so much quicker than their eyes could see.

--Taken from Path of Destruction

He kills Qordis telekinetically.

"And therein lies the problem." Bane lashed out with the dark side, seizing Qordis in an immobilizing, crushing grip. His opponent tried to protect himself, throwing up a field to deflect the incoming assault, but Bane’s attack tore through the pitiful defense, wiping it away as if it hadn’t even been there.

There was a strangled cry of pain from Qordis as the Force tightened around him and lifted him up from the ground.

"Your wisdom has destroyed our order," Bane explained casually, watching as Qordis struggled helplessly above him. "You have polluted the minds of your followers; you and Kaan have led them down the path of ruin."

"I—I don’t understand," Qordis gasped, barely able to speak as the breath was squeezed inexorably from his lungs.

"That has always been the problem," Bane replied. "The Brotherhood must be purged. The Sith must be destroyed and rebuilt. You, Kaan, and all the others must be wiped from the face of the galaxy. That is why I have returned."

Dawning horror spread across Qordis’s long, drawn features. "Please he groaned, "not...like this. Release me. Let me...draw my lightsaber. Let us fight...like Sith."

Bane tilted his head to the side. "Surely you know I could kill you just as easily with my lightsaber as I could with the Force."

"I...know." Qordis’s skin was turning red, and his body was trembling as the pressure mounted. Each word he spoke took tremendous effort, yet somehow the dying man found the strength to make his final plea. "More...honor...in...death...by...combat."

Bane gave an indifferent shrug. "Honor is for the living. Dead is dead."

A final push with his mind tightened the invisible vise. Qordis let out a final scream, but with no air in his lungs it came out only as a rattling gasp that was lost beneath the snapping and crackling of his bones.

Had Bane still been capable of such emotions he might actually have pitied the man. As it was, he simply let the corpse fall to the ground then wandered into Kaan’s tent and the communications equipment inside.

--Taken from Path of Destruction

He releases a telekinetic burst that levels a camp and then subsequently kills two people with Lightning, leaving their bodies charred.

They scattered in all directions: one of the women ran off to the left, two men ran off to the right; the other three turned and fled in a direct line away from the deadly interloper. Still twirling his lightsaber, Bane thrust his empty hand out before him, palm extended as he unleashed the Force in a wave of concussive power at the woman fleeing to his left.

The wave cut a swath of devastation through the camp. Tents were uprooted from the ground, their material torn and shredded. Wooden supply crates exploded into kindling, the shattered contents spraying out in a shower of splintered shrapnel. The Force wave slammed into the woman's back, pulverizing her spine and snapping her neck as it drove her facedown into the dirt and pinned her against the ground. Her corpse twitched once, then went forever still.

Clenching the fingers of his left hand tight against his open palm, Bane wheeled toward the two men on his right and thrust his fist up into the air. A dozen forks of blue lightning arced out from above his head to envelop the screaming soldiers, cooking them alive. Shrieking in agony, they danced and twitched like marionettes on electric strings for several seconds before their smoking husks collapsed on the ground.

--Taken from Rule of Two

He pulls away the monolith obstructing a chamber in Freedon Nadd's tomb.

With mounting frustration he continued his search, winding his way through the passages until he reached an apparently insignificant chamber, almost buried at the very heart of the temple. Both Kaan and Qordis were there waiting for him.

They stood a meter apart, each on one side of a small doorway carved in the back wall. The door was only a meter high, and was blocked by a tightly fitted slab of black stone, giving Bane hope once more. The stone seemed to have been undisturbed by whoever had been here before him. It was possible no one had found this room, hidden at the end of the twisting maze of passages. Or maybe someone had found it but had been unable to move the stone slab. It was even possible that the small entrance had once been hidden by the lost arts of Sith sorcery, and the spell obscuring it had gradually faded over the centuries, making it visible only now.

Glancing quickly at the twin manifestations on either side of the small doorway, Bane crouched down to examine the slab. Its surface was smooth, and it extended only a few centimeters out from the passage, making it impossible to get a firm grip. Of course, there was one other way to move it.

Summoning his strength, Bane reached out with the Force and tried to pull the stone toward him. It barely moved. The stone was heavy, but it was more than sheer mass that held it in place. There was something fighting his power, resisting him. Bane took a deep breath and tilted his head from side to side, loudly cracking his neck as he gathered himself for another attempt.

This time he went deep, plunging into the well of power that dwelled within his core. He reached back into his past, dredging up memories buried deep in his subconscious: memories of his father, Hurst; memories of the beatings; memories of the hatred he bore for the man who had raised him. As he did so, he felt his power building.

It started, as it always did, with a single spark of heat. The spark quickly became a flame, and the flame an inferno. Bane's body trembled with the strain as he fought to contain the power, letting the dark side energy build to a critical mass. He forced himself to endure the unbearable heat as long as he could, then thrust his fist forward, channeling everything inside him toward the stone blocking him from his destiny.

The heavy slab flew across the room and struck the far wall with a heavy thud. A long vertical crack appeared in the wall, though the dark stone block itself was undamaged. Bane dropped to his knees, panting from the exertion.

--Taken from Rule of Two

He deflects a torrent of rain with his lightsaber.

Feeling a blast of cold wind blow in, he crouched low and opened himself up to the Force, letting it flow through him. Drawing on it to extend his awareness out to encompass each individual bead of rain as it fell from the sky, he resolved not to let a single drop touch his exposed flesh.

He could sense the power of the dark side building inside him. It began, as it always did, with a faint spark, a tiny flicker of light and heat. Muscles tense and coiled in anticipation, he fed the spark, fueling it with his own passion, letting his anger and fury transform the flame into an inferno waiting to be unleashed.

As the first fat drops splattered onto the patio stones around him, Bane exploded into action. Abandoning the overpowering style of Djem So, he shifted to the quicker sequences of Soresu, his lightsaber tracing tight circles above his head in a series of movements designed to intercept enemy blaster bolts. The wind rose to a howling gale, and the scattered drops quickly became a downpour. His body and mind united as one, he channeled the infinite power of the Force against the driving rain.

Tiny clouds of hissing steam formed as his blade picked off the descending drops while Bane twisted, twirled, and contorted his body to evade those few that managed to slip through his defenses. For the next ten minutes he battled the pelting storm, reveling in the power of the dark side. And then, as suddenly as it had begun, the tempest was gone, the dark cloud scurrying away on the breeze. Breathing hard, Bane extinguished his lightsaber. His skin was sheened in sweat, but not a single drop of rain had touched his bare flesh.

--Taken from Dynasty of Evil

He shields himself from half a dozen concussion grenades.

Half a dozen concussion grenades tossed in from every side clattered on the floor at his feet. As they exploded, Bane simply enveloped himself in the Force, creating a protective cocoon that absorbed the impact and left him standing completely unharmed.

--Taken form Dynasty of Evil

He pulls a steel door off its hinges and then blasts out telekinetic waves that melt blasters, hurl back half a dozen soldiers, crush the soldiers bones/organs, and leave walls cracked.

Another locked durasteel door blocked the only exit. Bane tossed the blaster aside and tore the door off its hinges. Up above, someone triggered the alarm, and a deafening klaxon began to blare. Beyond the door was a narrow staircase, similarly barricaded at the top.

The Dark Lord charged up the steps and threw himself shoulder-first into the door at the top. It burst open from the impact, sending him tumbling into the room beyond. The four guards up here had been alerted by the blaster shots being fired down below; unlike the first wave they weren't caught off guard by his violent entrance. Weapons already drawn, they opened fire.

But Bane's visceral, primal assault on the squad in the room below had fueled the cycle of rising emotion and mounting dark side power. He met their assault with an explosion of crackling energy that rippled out in a violet wave from his body at the center. The incoming bolts were absorbed harmlessly into the ionic storm, the blasters themselves melted in the hands of their owners. The stench of burned flesh mingled with their screams of agony and the relentless, hammering song of the alarms, further feeding Bane's power.

Crouched on one knee, he clenched both fists then threw his arms out to either side, fingers splayed wide. The resulting Force wave pummeled the guards, sending them hurtling backward so they bounced off the walls hard enough to leave cracks in the stone.

Bane rose to his feet in the center of the carnage. Half a dozen bodies lay strewn about him, bones shattered, internal organs crushed into pulp. One choked out a pink, frothing spray with his final breath; all the others were still.

--Taken from Dynasty of Evil

Not bad, all things considered.

#36 Edited by ShootingNova (17110 posts) - - Show Bio

@silver2467: Nice work. A majority of those quotes seem to be telekinetics. I'm aware that is not all he has accomplished, but I found it interesting you were putting up mainly telekinetics/Force techniques. Probably speaks of Bane's tendency (greatest strength) being similar things.

About the counterarguments, for the first few there's really not much to say. For your first paragraph, we appear to have more or less reached a common viewpoint. For the second, I wasn't really trying to say Bane would instantly beat Maul through one Force power, but if Maul is going to be reckless enough to swing in the cocoons (if Bane times them right, there won't even need to be the element of recklessness) then he will keep putting distance which could potentially lead to his demise if he keeps getting hit by Force attacks.

As for the third, to be honest, that wasn't really there to debunk a point or anything. Then again, you could ask me why I even spoke of it in the first place. The answer to which is just I don't know. Sometimes I have some strange tendency to talk a pile of junk off my throat. Don't mind me.

For the drain one, could you please quote it exactly, from the book? I don't mean to be a pathetic sloth, nor am I trying to get you to do my work for me, I'm just tired and I'm too lazy to walk out and open that pyramid thingy to get the book. I'm going to bed soon anyways.

Its not likely to get into the duel, as I already said, but it might be possible once Bane knocks him away via the lightning cocoon we were just talking about. Also, the quote was less about the effect of the Death Field but more about the fact that when it was mentioning the "exhausting Bane" thing, I believe it meant exhausting Bane excluding the aid of the temple (which would mean he is capable of doing it without aid but would exhaust himself), but that is probably just my horrendous tendency to wander off with ideas and take them completely out of context. If that's the case, kindly let me know but don't go on a rampage on me.

I do agree with what you said in the Palpatine section. It sounds almost like Force Crush, but whatever. The name Choke seems to imply usage on a living organism, not machinery.

Also, one of your replies to DC was about Maul's unlikeliness to boast in front of Bane and expose himself to a telekinetic attack that could very well lead to his demise. That's true and all, but he did start to have a tendency to taunt as of TCW. That could be more or less specific to Kenobi, but he was much less silent then in, say, TPM.

#37 Edited by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova said:

@silver2467: Nice work. A majority of those quotes seem to be telekinetics. I'm aware that is not all he has accomplished, but I found it interesting you were putting up mainly telekinetics/Force techniques. Probably speaks of Bane's tendency (greatest strength) being similar things.

When Bane was elucidating to Zannah a few of the divisions in technique with the dark side, he described those with "raw elemental power." In my opinion, that would be where Bane usually excels. Telekinetic outbursts and Lightning are part of his MO.

@shootingnova said:

About the counterarguments, for the first few there's really not much to say. For your first paragraph, we appear to have more or less reached a common viewpoint. For the second, I wasn't really trying to say Bane would instantly beat Maul through one Force power, but if Maul is going to be reckless enough to swing in the cocoons (if Bane times them right, there won't even need to be the element of recklessness) then he will keep putting distance which could potentially lead to his demise if he keeps getting hit by Force attacks.

Fair enough. However, is the cocoon trick really the most probable offensive technique for Bane to employ here? It seems a bit unnecessary being that a telekinetic wave would require less preparation (even if the time difference is only a second or two) and the fact that Bane only revealed that trick once.

@shootingnova said:

As for the third, to be honest, that wasn't really there to debunk a point or anything. Then again, you could ask me why I even spoke of it in the first place. The answer to which is just I don't know. Sometimes I have some strange tendency to talk a pile of junk off my throat. Don't mind me.

No problem.

@shootingnova said:

For the drain one, could you please quote it exactly, from the book? I don't mean to be a pathetic sloth, nor am I trying to get you to do my work for me, I'm just tired and I'm too lazy to walk out and open that pyramid thingy to get the book. I'm going to bed soon anyways.

No, it's fine. Asking for evidence in a debate is always fair.

Drain life: A delicate procedure that saps the life energy of another and funnels it directly into your own essence. It is extremely difficult to employ in combat and is derived from the teachings of Zelashiel the Blasphemer in the Holocron of Darth Revan.

--Taken from Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side

It seems that Bane never learned a means to bring Drain to bear during combat, or at least, not comfortably. There are some who can employ Drain in combat, but apparently, Bane's usage of it was not so fruitful in that arena. This could be attested to by his strenuous formation of a death field in DoE.

@shootingnova said:

Its not likely to get into the duel, as I already said, but it might be possible once Bane knocks him away via the lightning cocoon we were just talking about.

I'm still not entirely clear on why that, of all things, is the power being banked on to strengthen an argument for Bane repelling Maul enough to use another power.

@shootingnova said:

Also, the quote was less about the effect of the Death Field but more about the fact that when it was mentioning the "exhausting Bane" thing, I believe it meant exhausting Bane excluding the aid of the temple (which would mean he is capable of doing it without aid but would exhaust himself), but that is probably just my horrendous tendency to wander off with ideas and take them completely out of context. If that's the case, kindly let me know but don't go on a rampage on me.

And I agree with you. Maybe Bane could propel a death field to those lengths under his own power but not for very long without external aid. He would, as the novel stated, exhaust himself, and as a result, the effort would be wasted without any outside help. It definitely would not be combat usable, though we already agree on that.

@shootingnova said:

Also, one of your replies to DC was about Maul's unlikeliness to boast in front of Bane and expose himself to a telekinetic attack that could very well lead to his demise. That's true and all, but he did start to have a tendency to taunt as of TCW. That could be more or less specific to Kenobi, but he was much less silent then in, say, TPM.

TCW Maul is more vocal in battle situations, where TPM Maul actively resented the idea of "wasting time" with words. But, yes, I do think it is much more Kenobi-specific than anything, even if he does get a word in here and there in other duels. However, we'll discuss TCW Maul a little later. We still need to finish with TPM Maul first, and on that, we have not arrived at a consensus.

I still personally think Maul could win a slight majority. You and DC argued that Bane would win a slight majority, and, well, I just can't allow anyone to disagree with me. I'm too insecure to let people have their own opinions... So concede already! I have to win on the interwebz!

In all seriousness though, if we can't meet more common ground soon, then we can agree to disagree. At the very least, I'm glad no one is arguing Bane will stomp this anymore, but I am still a bit dismayed that I've thus far failed to convince anyone Maul could actually win.

#38 Posted by ComicStooge (12817 posts) - - Show Bio

@silver2467: You've convinced me Maul could take him.

#39 Edited by ShootingNova (17110 posts) - - Show Bio

@silver2467: Lol, damn. I had to edit my post, because when I posted it everything went blank. Come on, CV. Or maybe it's you cursing me cuz u don't want me to disagree with you? :P

Anyways, the points (not much, we should be reaching common ground soon):

1. I was under the impression that the cocoon would be instantaneous, or something like that? Correct me if I'm wrong, haven't read DoE lately.

2. The reason I asked for the quote was to confirm that it said "extremely difficult", as opposed to "impossible". Yes, I know about the likelihood of application and so forth.

3. Revealing the trick once is still better than never showing it, as he did with several techniques. The fact he did show it means he could utilize it in tight situations, which he could because he did use it in a tight situation.

4. Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm stubborn. LOL.

5. TCW Maul > TPM in most regards. If TPM Maul was to win, then TCW should win, most likely.

#40 Posted by ShootingNova (17110 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge: Aww, come on, LOL.

Well, Maul > Bane physically, Bane > Maul in regards to Force power.

Overall, I'm trying to convince him its plausible for Bane to win a majority.

#41 Posted by OfficialRikudouSennin (631 posts) - - Show Bio

Bane Force+Skills= Win

sorry maul fans he loses this match

#42 Posted by ComicStooge (12817 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge: Aww, come on, LOL.

Well, Maul > Bane physically, Bane > Maul in regards to Force power.

Overall, I'm trying to convince him its plausible for Bane to win a majority.

Aren't Maul's physicals and Force abilities close enough to Bane's so that Maul can indeed rely on his superior skill to gain victory?

#43 Edited by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge said:

@silver2467: You've convinced me Maul could take him.

Success!

:P

@shootingnova said:

@silver2467: Lol, damn. I had to edit my post, because when I posted it everything went blank. Come on, CV. Or maybe it's you cursing me cuz u don't want me to disagree with you? :P

It seems even intangibles like site glitches are bent on ensuring the integrity of my arguments and the withering of yours. A good sign.

:P

@shootingnova said:

1. I was under the impression that the cocoon would be instantaneous, or something like that? Correct me if I'm wrong, haven't read DoE lately.

It mostly was, as I recall, which is why I said the time difference between Bane exercising that power and a simple telekinetic attack is only momentary. Bane composed the cocoon right as Zannah was lunging at him from a meter or so away. I suppose it would probably be more accurate on my part to simply say that a telekinetic or Lightning blast could be produced quicker than the cocoon, even if the cocoon itself does not require much time to prepare.

@shootingnova said:

3. Revealing the trick once is still better than never showing it, as he did with several techniques. The fact he did show it means he could utilize it in tight situations, which he could because he did use it in a tight situation.

Fair enough, but here is another reason for my confusion about relying on this trick: Maul would only fall for it once. If Maul struck through the cocoon with his lightsaber and was hurtled backward away from Bane, in the manner Zannah was, even granting that Bane would attempt that trick again (which I still have doubts about due to the portrayed irregularity of its use), Maul would not be stupid enough to blindly slash through it a second time. And that besides, both Bane and Zannah flew opposite directions from one another after the energy in the cocoon was released, and yet neither one of them were hurt. Maul wouldn't be either. He could withstand multiple discharges from that power and still not sustain much injury. So because of the fact that this power was only used once, because of the fact that Maul just isn't dense enough to fall for that trap more than once, and because of the fact that it hardly even caused harm to the recipients of the cocoon's eruption, neither of whom are as durable as Maul, I see no reason why this power would be of much benefit. Sure, maybe it could create a gap between Bane and Maul, but how long exactly are we supposing it would take Maul to cover a ten meter distance? He could charge that length in less than a second and resume a saber assault on Bane.

@shootingnova said:

5. TCW Maul > TPM in most regards. If TPM Maul was to win, then TCW should win, most likely.

I'm not convinced of that. We can say definitively that TCW Maul is more overtly powerful than TPM Maul, but skill? Physicality? Whether or not TCW Maul exceeds TPM Maul in those regards is debatable.

@comicstooge said:

@shootingnova said:

@comicstooge: Aww, come on, LOL.

Well, Maul > Bane physically, Bane > Maul in regards to Force power.

Overall, I'm trying to convince him its plausible for Bane to win a majority.

Aren't Maul's physicals and Force abilities close enough to Bane's so that Maul can indeed rely on his superior skill to gain victory?

Yes. It has happened very often in Star Wars stories that a more skilled combatant overcomes a more powerful Force adept. Among those stories, interestingly enough, is the Darth Bane trilogy.

#44 Posted by ShootingNova (17110 posts) - - Show Bio

@silver2467: LOL this site's replying/quoting is just failing me now :(

I thought a person as skilled as you in debating would not have to curse my posts in order to attain victory.

Success!

:P

LOL, naturally I would side with you, considering I've pretty much never actually decisively won a debate against you (minus the bonus rounds). Generally, all I manage to do is change your opinion slightly, but rarely your entire consensus. Nice work forcing either a victory or a stalemate in your debates. :)

Also, nitpicking your Qordis quote. There was no "?" after "More... honor... in...death...by...combat." :D

It mostly was, as I recall, which is why I said the time difference between Bane exercising that power and a simple telekinetic attack is only momentary. Bane composed the cocoon right as Zannah was lunging at him from a meter or so away. I suppose it would probably be more accurate on my part to simply say that a telekinetic or Lightning blast could be produced quicker than the cocoon, even if the cocoon itself does not require much time to prepare.

Faster? How so? I was under the impression that Bane wasn't really "charging up" said cocoon, but rather waiting for Zannah to strike and then using it when she least expected it.

Fair enough, but here is another reason for my confusion about relying on this trick: Maul would only fall for it once. If Maul struck through the cocoon with his lightsaber and was hurtled backward away from Bane, in the manner Zannah was, even granting that Bane would attempt that trick again (which I still have doubts about due to the portrayed irregularity of its use), Maul would not be stupid enough to blindly slash through it a second time. And that besides, both Bane and Zannah flew opposite directions from one another after the energy in the cocoon was released, and yet neither one of them were hurt. Maul wouldn't be either. He could withstand multiple discharges from that power and still not sustain much injury. So because of the fact that this power was only used once, because of the fact that Maul just isn't dense enough to fall for that trap more than once, and because of the fact that it hardly even caused harm to the recipients of the cocoon's eruption, neither of whom are as durable as Maul, I see no reason why this power would be of much benefit. Sure, maybe it could create a gap between Bane and Maul, but how long exactly are we supposing it would take Maul to cover a ten meter distance? He could charge that length in less than a second and resume a saber assault on Bane.

LOL, I thought we already agreed it doesn't harm Maul, because it didn't affect Zannah and Bane as far as wounding them goes. It was just to throw him back, and allow for potential telekinetics/Drain to come into effect.

I thought Zannah was pushed back about 30 metres, and Bane 10. A total of 40. I could be wrong, though.

And again, the irregularity issue. A singular usage points to the fact that it can be used. Unless there are specific circumstances surrounding said usage (which in this case there are not) then generally they should not be doubted. Would you say Kreia lacks the ability to use Force Drain, even though canonically she only ever used it once, on the masters? I could go on, since there's so many things demonstrated only once, but that hardly prevents them from further duplication.


I'm not convinced of that. We can say definitively that TCW Maul is more overtly powerful than TPM Maul, but skill? Physicality? Whether or not TCW Maul exceeds TPM Maul in those regards is debatable.

True, that's probably what I intended to say. Generally, I would only see room for improvement, not so much deterioration, although the transition from a double-bladed lightsaber to a single-bladed one might make a minor difference.


Yes. It has happened very often in Star Wars stories that a more skilled combatant overcomes a more powerful Force adept. Among those stories, interestingly enough, is the Darth Bane trilogy.

True, but the reverse has also occurred. Zannah against Bane, for example, which is also in the Bane Trilogy.....

@comicstooge: Physicalities, I could agree. Force abilities, probably not.

#45 Edited by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova said:

@silver2467: LOL this site's replying/quoting is just failing me now :(

I thought a person as skilled as you in debating would not have to curse my posts in order to attain victory.

LOL.

Sorry to hear about your posting troubles though. Hopefully the site glitches will continue to be rectified.

@shootingnova said:

LOL, naturally I would side with you, considering I've pretty much never actually decisively won a debate against you (minus the bonus rounds). Generally, all I manage to do is change your opinion slightly, but rarely your entire consensus. Nice work forcing either a victory or a stalemate in your debates. :)

Also, nitpicking your Qordis quote. There was no "?" after "More... honor... in...death...by...combat." :D

Ah, you know me. I don't debate to "win." I debate to share information and just for the enjoyment of the discussion.

Was there supposed to be a question mark there? Guess I missed that.

@shootingnova said:

Faster? How so? I was under the impression that Bane wasn't really "charging up" said cocoon, but rather waiting for Zannah to strike and then using it when she least expected it.

Well, it seemed to me (and this could just be my own arbitrary interpretation) that Bane had to both settle energies to be exploded outward and encage himself in a cocoon to pull off that showing. On the other hand, all he need do to fire Lightning or a telekinetic blast is...fire Lightning or a telekinetic blast. I don't know. Maybe I'm reading into it what isn't there, but it just seems quicker to TK an enemy than to adopt the cocoon approach. To repeat though, just for clarity's sake, I did say that the speed difference is only the breadth of an instant or two. So the difference is still only momentary.

EDIT: I withdraw this point completely. After perusing through that section in DoE again, Zannah was lunging at Bane to cut him down with her lightsaber, and when she was a meter or so away, Bane enveloped himself in the energy cocoon, which Zannah splintered with her lightsaber. If he could do that while she moves in to deliver a killing stroke, I doubt there would be much difference in speed of operation between that power and Lightning or TK. So I concede that point.

@shootingnova said:

LOL, I thought we already agreed it doesn't harm Maul, because it didn't affect Zannah and Bane as far as wounding them goes. It was just to throw him back, and allow for potential telekinetics/Drain to come into effect.

I guess I misunderstood you then. With that said, if Drain were a credible procedure for Bane to win here, then why didn't he Drain Zannah after he warded her off via the cocoon? Why didn't he Drain Zannah when they dueled on Ambria after she withdrew from him? Drain is just not a practical tactic.

@shootingnova said:

I thought Zannah was pushed back about 30 metres, and Bane 10. A total of 40. I could be wrong, though.

And again, the irregularity issue. A singular usage points to the fact that it can be used. Unless there are specific circumstances surrounding said usage (which in this case there are not) then generally they should not be doubted. Would you say Kreia lacks the ability to use Force Drain, even though canonically she only ever used it once, on the masters? I could go on, since there's so many things demonstrated only once, but that hardly prevents them from further duplication.

No, it was ten.

Actually, yes, there were specific circumstances surrounding said usage. When a character has as many combat showings as Bane does, we can infer a normal method of combat on his part. Bane's normal method of combat is to barrage his enemies with his aggressive lightsaber form, his physical strength, TK, and Lightning. The cocoon technique was a recourse on Bane's part to dodge Zannah's lightsaber while he himself was fighting not to defeat her, because he knew he couldn't, but to retreat from the area. That fight advertised a mindset from Bane that is not his standard. He fought defensively in that fight because of the circumstances he was trapped in, being unarmed against Zannah whose intent was to kill him. Armed? He didn't fight her that way. He, as he does in all other normal encounters, barraged her with his aggressive lightsaber form, his physical strength, and drew on his Force reserves as he could. In this fight, Bane is armed. His approach will be defeat Maul in a straightforward confrontation, especially when considering his bloodlust. What your argument essentially rests on is a ploy from Bane that opposes his typical behavior in combat. There are showings from some characters that have only been utilized once, and it is for that exact reason that we don't assume they will adopt those more obscure powers from the outset. We determine character actions in combat by their usual morals and mindsets, not by their outlier showings. Otherwise, in most Luke vs threads that are made, I could just say Luke can cause his enemy to spontaneously explode, being that he has shown the power to do that before. Problem is, resorting to that power initially is not Luke's ordinary mentality toward opponents. Now, I understand that you never meant to imply Bane would elect this means of victory from the start, but even putting it into practice against Maul is easier said than done when Bane will be taxed by Maul's customarily merciless lightsaber advance.

On top of this, Bane has one shot to make the cocoon trick count. If he implements that power and thereby creates a gap between himself and Maul, he better succeed in defeating Maul with that gap in place, because if he doesn't and Maul reaches him close-quarter again, Maul won't fall for that trick more than once. Basically, you're arguing all this time for Bane's cocoon technique only amounts to a single chance on his part to make it useful. And considering that I have every confidence Maul would reach Bane again after being launched away by it, it seems like a weak point to argue for anyway.

@shootingnova said:

True, that's probably what I intended to say. Generally, I would only see room for improvement, not so much deterioration, although the transition from a double-bladed lightsaber to a single-bladed one might make a minor difference.

We'll discuss that in more detail in a little while.

@shootingnova said:

True, but the reverse has also occurred. Zannah against Bane, for example, which is also in the Bane Trilogy.....

Zannah was very close to Bane in terms of lightsaber combat anyway; the disparity in combat skill between Maul and Bane is much more immense than the skill disparity between Zannah and Bane. Not to mention, Zannah sharpened her powers with the dark side energies permeating Ambria anyway. So the comparison is a bit loose. Combat skill is usually a more crucial matter than Force power, and that principle maintains itself here.

#46 Posted by reikai (4237 posts) - - Show Bio

@silver2467: The difference between Zannah and Bane is thus; Bane is Bigger and Stronger than she is, and has about 20yrs more experience than she does. Bane is more adept in Physical Combat. However, Zannah is more naturally adept in Sith Sorcery, and her raw force potential is greater than Bane's.

Bane is more skilled in Saber Combat than Zannah, but Zannah's Force Powers are greater than Bane's. When two figures whose physical abilities are equal, generally it is their connection to the Force or the strength of their force abilities that will make the difference to determine a victor. In the case of Bane and Zannah, Bane had superior physical ability while Zannah had greater Force Ability. This cause them to be virtually equal overall, which is why The Huntress (then to be named Darth Cognus by Zannah) could not foresee who'd win when the two fought, because their overall abilities were so equal, it was impossible to determine.

Now, in the case of Bane and Maul, Bane is the clear winner. He does have more experience in combat than Maul, and he knows far more about the Force than Maul was ever allowed. Bane mastered all seven lightsaber forms, and would then focus mainly upon Djem So because of his physical stature and strength. After he lost the Orbalisks, he readjusted his style to include more defensive tactics because he was no longer nigh-impervious to harm, and the damage to his body had made him more vulnerable. Thus he became more cautious in his fighting and improved upon his Force abilities.

Of course, Maul is a very skilled combatant. Even a clone of Maul was capable of overwhelming Vader's defenses and nearly killed him. However, Bane and Vader are two different people. Vader is not as quick because of his prosthetics, and his armor offers him a degree of protection, so he doesn't focus as much on guarding certain parts of his body. Not like Bane who was forced to adapt and guard himself from every angle and direction, because he lacked that level of protection.

I might be inclined to say that Maul is a sliver faster than Bane and more acrobatic, however Bane is more experienced and physically stronger. He also has experience fighting Zabrak and people who use dual-bladed lightsabers and dual-wielding lightsabers. As such he is far more prepared for Maul's style of combat.

#47 Posted by dccomicsrule2011 (24853 posts) - - Show Bio

@silver2467: Great this discussion is taken off just as you thought :D I will reply to you in a little while, mainly because I'm on my Android and I suck at typing with it. -_- I also flicked through the Darth Bane trilogy to clear up a few things I was fuzzy on before.

#48 Posted by ShootingNova (17110 posts) - - Show Bio

LOL.

Sorry to hear about your posting troubles though. Hopefully the site glitches will continue to be rectified.

Mhmm. It's such a tragedy, because this site has been getting better with the trolls and stuff being more.... limited, now.

Ah, you know me. I don't debate to "win." I debate to share information and just for the enjoyment of the discussion.

Was there supposed to be a question mark there? Guess I missed that.

That's pretty much most of the "better debaters" on the board. You used to be up there when I looked at the top posters board. Now it's all changed.

No, there was no question mark. But you put one :)

Well, it seemed to me (and this could just be my own arbitrary interpretation) that Bane had to both settle energies to be exploded outward and encage himself in a cocoon to pull off that showing. On the other hand, all he need do to fire Lightning or a telekinetic blast is...fire Lightning or a telekinetic blast. I don't know. Maybe I'm reading into it what isn't there, but it just seems quicker to TK an enemy than to adopt the cocoon approach. To repeat though, just for clarity's sake, I did say that the speed difference is only the breadth of an instant or two. So the difference is still only momentary.

EDIT: I withdraw this point completely. After perusing through that section in DoE again, Zannah was lunging at Bane to cut him down with her lightsaber, and when she was a meter or so away, Bane enveloped himself in the energy cocoon, which Zannah splintered with her lightsaber. If he could do that while she moves in to deliver a killing stroke, I doubt there would be much difference in speed of operation between that power and Lightning or TK. So I concede that point.

1 point for me, yay! Yeah, and you have about 10 points now. LOL.

I guess I misunderstood you then. With that said, if Drain were a credible procedure for Bane to win here, then why didn't he Drain Zannah after he warded her off via the cocoon? Why didn't he Drain Zannah when they dueled on Ambria after she withdrew from him? Drain is just not a practical tactic.

As CitizenBane (hah, Bane) pointed out, Darth Bane stated it was imperative to be taught to future generations. I'm assuming he taught Zannah something along the lines, as well a potential defense (though I've never heard of one).

No, it was ten.

Actually, yes, there were specific circumstances surrounding said usage. When a character has as many combat showings as Bane does, we can infer a normal method of combat on his part. Bane's normal method of combat is to barrage his enemies with his aggressive lightsaber form, his physical strength, TK, and Lightning. The cocoon technique was a recourse on Bane's part to dodge Zannah's lightsaber while he himself was fighting not to defeat her, because he knew he couldn't, but to retreat from the area. That fight advertised a mindset from Bane that is not his standard. He fought defensively in that fight because of the circumstances he was trapped in, being unarmed against Zannah whose intent was to kill him. Armed? He didn't fight her that way. He, as he does in all other normal encounters, barraged her with his aggressive lightsaber form, his physical strength, and drew on his Force reserves as he could. In this fight, Bane is armed. His approach will be defeat Maul in a straightforward confrontation, especially when considering his bloodlust. What your argument essentially rests on is a ploy from Bane that opposes his typical behavior in combat. There are showings from some characters that have only been utilized once, and it is for that exact reason that we don't assume they will adopt those more obscure powers from the outset. We determine character actions in combat by their usual morals and mindsets, not by their outlier showings. Otherwise, in most Luke vs threads that are made, I could just say Luke can cause his enemy to spontaneously explode, being that he has shown the power to do that before. Problem is, resorting to that power initially is not Luke's ordinary mentality toward opponents. Now, I understand that you never meant to imply Bane would elect this means of victory from the start, but even putting it into practice against Maul is easier said than done when Bane will be taxed by Maul's customarily merciless lightsaber advance.

On top of this, Bane has one shot to make the cocoon trick count. If he implements that power and thereby creates a gap between himself and Maul, he better succeed in defeating Maul with that gap in place, because if he doesn't and Maul reaches him close-quarter again, Maul won't fall for that trick more than once. Basically, you're arguing all this time for Bane's cocoon technique only amounts to a single chance on his part to make it useful. And considering that I have every confidence Maul would reach Bane again after being launched away by it, it seems like a weak point to argue for anyway.

Zannah was thrown back ten, Bane was just thrown to the floor since he was directly in front of wall. If there was no wall, maybe it would have been twenty? I'm not sure what difference this makes, anyways.

I think I began arguing for this when I tried to fine a potential application for Drain/TK powers that would be able to defeat Maul, or at last allow Bane to gain the upper hand.

Zannah was very close to Bane in terms of lightsaber combat anyway; the disparity in combat skill between Maul and Bane is much more immense than the skill disparity between Zannah and Bane. Not to mention, Zannah sharpened her powers with the dark side energies permeating Ambria anyway. So the comparison is a bit loose. Combat skill is usually a more crucial matter than Force power, and that principle maintains itself here.

That was probably not the best example. What about Kreia and the Jedi Masters on Dantooine, or the S-canon clip where Sion was owned by Nihilus, or when Sion was owned by Kreia?

#49 Edited by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova said:

No, there was no question mark. But you put one :)

I see. Thanks for the correction. Edited.

@shootingnova said:

As CitizenBane (hah, Bane) pointed out, Darth Bane stated it was imperative to be taught to future generations. I'm assuming he taught Zannah something along the lines, as well a potential defense (though I've never heard of one).

Even if he did, Drain and a defense for Drain are not interchangeable. Kreia knew Force Drain, but she failed to resist Sion and Nihilus siphoning her powers out of her. Ulic Qel-Droma and Dooku could both resist Drain, but neither one ever exhibited Force Drain. The list goes on. Where Bane may be versed in Force Drain, nothing signals the notion that he learned a defense for it. The fact that Zannah has no recorded instances of using Force Drain, let alone a protection against it, leaves no logical precedent to suggest she was immune to it.

@shootingnova said:
Zannah was thrown back ten, Bane was just thrown to the floor since he was directly in front of wall. If there was no wall, maybe it would have been twenty? I'm not sure what difference this makes, anyways.

I think I began arguing for this when I tried to fine a potential application for Drain/TK powers that would be able to defeat Maul, or at last allow Bane to gain the upper hand.

Probably not. Ten or twenty meters, either way, Maul can dash that distance almost instantly.

I know what your proposed strategy is. All I'm saying is that if you want to prove that Bane has the potential to disengage Maul by separating himself from him, then a simple telekinetic blast is probably a stronger argument considering that has more potential to be repeated, while the cocoon tactic could only be used once.

@shootingnova said:
That was probably not the best example. What about Kreia and the Jedi Masters on Dantooine, or the S-canon clip where Sion was owned by Nihilus, or when Sion was owned by Kreia?

What about them?

#50 Posted by dccomicsrule2011 (24853 posts) - - Show Bio

@reikai: Ehh. Maul was able to everwhelm Vader because he was amped IIRC, and I doubt Bane is faster then Vader is or vice-versa, they both have comparable feats of speeds. Sure, Vader is not as fast as he was when he was Anakin Skywalker (neither is neither is Maul or Bane, though a case could be made for Maul) but he is no slower then Bane.