darth maul vs count dooku

@erkan12: Windu created Vaapad before Dooku left the Order, and Dooku has beaten Mace before in battle:

Master Windu himself remained perfectly balanced and centered. In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective.

Source: Power of the Jedi Sourcebook

In other cases, they were equals.

He was running from Windu in that comic because he was disinterested in the fight and other Jedi were coming.

TPM Maul is not faster. You have not given me any feats to the contrary.

Regarding his blaster bolt deflection, I told you he mastered other forms beyond Makashi and additionally was so skilled in combat he was no longer limited by Makashi's weaknesses, meaning he could deflect blaster bolts completely fine. He spent over 50 years as one of the Order's top field agents, and he was mainly fighting against blaster-wielding opponents. Using that logic, Yoda and Qui-Gon would have immense difficulty deflecting blaster bolts due to their Ataru form, but this is not the case.

Maul has no more potential than Dooku because he is a martial artist, and his Force abilities (up to TPM) were nowhere near Dooku. And potential means nothing in a fight anyways.

Beyond that, Maul does not understand the Dark Side better because he spends his time mastering martial prowess and not the dark side, whereas Dooku has stores of holocrons and ancient Sith knowledge he studied for some time. Maul never had any of that.

Maul has potential to become fast as Sidious and Yoda. And learning the force powers better (same level like Sidious's and Yoda's telekinesis and tutaminis, but i don't think that he would use force lightning, not his style) . While Dooku was already at his limit he could never defeat Sidious. From wookiepedia ;

However Dooku's fate as a Sith apprentice was sealed before it had begun, as Sidious had already met the young boy Anakin Skywalker, the supposed Chosen One of Jedi prophecy. Realizing Skywalker's one-of-a-kind potential in the Force, Sidious had already made plans for Skywalker to serve as his final apprentice. As such, Sidious decided to keep Dooku only as a place holder until Skywalker had fully matured, while still using the fallen Jedi's unique talents to further the Sith agenda.

But Maul was never a place holder.

@shootingnova said:

Beyond that, Maul does not understand the Dark Side better because he spends his time mastering martial prowess and not the dark side, whereas Dooku has stores of holocrons and ancient Sith knowledge he studied for some time. Maul never had any of that.

Then answer this, who do you think could turn to the ''light side'' easier ? Maul or Dooku ?

Maul trained by most powerful sith lords in history ; Sidious and Plagueis as sith assasin. While Dooku was a well known ''Jedi'', and master of Qui-Gon Jinn.

This man died because Maul's thought was ''so dark''...

Wookieepedia is not canon. It twists quotes and makes up information, and you should stop using it as a source.

Maul has the potential to become as fast as Sidious. Right, because that's how Maul got speedblitzed, and later in his prime he only saw "more than countless blades" when he was dueling Sidious, got curbstomped by Palpatine in TK, and now you're saying his Force powers are better than Dooku's? Please. Who was the person studying all the Sith holocrons including Darth Andeddu's? Dooku. Who was traveling to Korriban to study ancient Sith knowledge? Dooku. Who searched for and uncovered the long-lost Dark Reaper that eluded Vitiate's entire empire? Dooku.

Beyond all of this, as I said, potential is irrelevant, or else Anakin would have become more powerful than Palpatine and Yoda. Which he didn't.

Actually, he was. Palpatine intended to replace him with Anakin when the time was right, but he got defeated prematurely so Palpatine had to search for another apprentice, and found Dooku.

Beyond that - Maul wasn't even a legitimate Sith Lord. Palpatine trained him as an assassin, not as a true apprentice to succeed him:

"... I appreciate that you have trained him to be a fighting machine rather than a true apprentice."

Source: Darth Plagueis

By Palpatine's own admission, Maul, Tyranus and the Vader who let him down were all easy to replace once their usefulness was fulfilled:

Darth Maul, Darth Tyranus, Darth Vader. Each useful in his own way. Each easy to replace when his purpose has reached its end.

Source: Book of Sith: Secrets of the Dark Side

Oh, and why is any of this relevant in a fight? It's irrelevant how much potential you ascribe to him until he has feats that match your claims. He doesn't.

You have yet to provide me with how Maul wins in a fight. All you have been doing is ranting on about how Dooku was a Jedi, which is irrelevant. He turned his back on the Jedi and spent more time studying ancient Sith knowledge than Maul ever did. Maul was a physical assassin. His Force powers were not remotely near Palpatine or Yoda, nor was his speed. Try again.

Thats why i said ''potential'' do you know what it means ? Maul was 22 years old at TPM, yet he duel two ataru (its best use is in combat against a single opponent) specialist like Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan (yes Obi-Wan was padawan but his age was 25) same time and he was winning until he start to play with his rival and forgot about Qui-Gon's lightsaber.

''His speed was such that even Darth Plagueis himself was astounded by it.''

Source : Darth Plagueis

''Activating his lightsaber, Bondara forced the assassin to crash onto a pedwalk and engaged the tattooed Zabrak in a lightsaber duel. Despite Bondara's mastery of lightsaber combat, the Zabrak assassin proved too powerful for even him to defeat in traditional style. Seeing no other option, Bondara sacrificed his own life by blowing up a speeder bike in an attempt to destroy his opponent in the blast. Though Bondara was killed in the explosion, the assassin, in reality the secret Sith apprentice Darth Maul, escaped the blast suffering only minor injuries.''

Source : Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter

I'm talking about TPM Maul version not CW half robot, since he lost many midi-cholorians like Anakin-Vader transformation. He lost his potential like Anakin. Maul's force combat and force speed potential was unique. Sidious is not stupid enough to take non potential Maul as his sith apprentice.

And Darth Andeddu's ass kicked by Darth Krayt's errand boy Wyyrlok, so his hologram was useless. And you didn't answer my question ; who do you think could turn to the light side easier, Dooku or Maul ?

I have no idea what you were speculating. Maul never had more potential because Palpatine was going to get rid of him one way or another.

Regarding his duel against Qui-Gon and Kenobi - as I said, he had both an exotic form and weapon, and their forms gradually wore down their endurance. Maul had Qui-Gon in a tight area which hampered his dueling and then proceeded to wear down Ataru's weak defenses, and win. Beyond that, he was faster and stronger than his opponents individually because neither of them were in their prime. Not that this would matter because Dooku could replicate the feat without hindering himself with his own arrogance.

And you're quoting Wookieepedia, not the novels. You might as well cite the excerpts from the novels, or else you wouldn't write the novels as the source.

Regarding the Plagueis quote, I've already addressed this before - Plagueis had extremely low expectations of Maul. Using that logic, I would say Maul was wary of facing Plo Koon, whom is outright inferior to Dooku in dueling.

And you're still not posting actual speed feats. Not that you have to - since I know all of Maul's and Dooku's speed feats already. Maul has fought in blurs, Dooku did that when he was twelve. Maul has dodged blaster bolts, Dooku has dodged lightsaber strikes from people who have dodged/deflected blaster bolts. Maul has fought imperceptibly fast, and so has Dooku. Maul has generated afterimages with his blade, and so has Dooku. Maul is not faster than Dooku at all.

What does this have to do with anything? Did you even read my post? I was referencing TPM Maul as well - he was going to get replaced by Anakin. And TCW Maul is more powerful than TPM Maul anyways. Just like Vader of RotJ was about equivalent to Anakin of RotS. Potential is irrelevant.

And what does this have to do with anything? Wyyrlok's TP is superior than Maul's anyways, and this was not what I was talking about. I was referencing Andeddu's knowledge (ie. his library and essence transfer knowledge). Oh, and it's holocron, not hologram.

According to this comic, yes it is relevant.

@erkan12: Right. So you think Maul's Dun Moch is going to affect Dooku when he actually severed all his ties with the Jedi and is a more proficient user of Dun Moch on the first place.

@erkan12: TCW Maul has choked Obi-Wan, hurled him across a chamber, collapsed part of a cave, manipulated Republic shuttles, etc.

That surpasses TPM Maul's best telekinetic feat, which is lifting a boulder eight meters.

And did Dooku used ''force rage'' at any source ? Because i don't remember. It is another advantage for Maul. He used force rage in many occasion.

@erkan12: Maybe. Twice against Anakin in TCW - in the first one, he seems to hve got angry a bit for some reason and then his strength was sort of meeting Anakin's as an equal for some time. He also presumably used it when he got choked and had his saber locked, then shot Lightning that shocked Anakin into submission before hurling him into some stone columns.

@shootingnova

I think we can count this as force rage too, Dooku's last force lightning attack

And about TPM Maul vs. CW Maul, i overlook to this quote ;

“

You have become a rival,

” Sidious declared.

He raised his arms and both Maul and Savage flew through the air, smashing into the elegantly patterned walls of the royal chamber and crashing to the floor. Maul sprang to his feet and ignited his lightsaber. Savage did the same. The two Zabraks stared grimly at the hooded figure. Sidious retrieved a pair of elegant-looking lightsabers from within the depths of his robes and ignited them. The blades turned his pale face a hellish red.

But Maul had never faced his Master when he was actually trying to kill him.

Maul had grown more powerful since the last time he’d been in Sidious’s presence, before the Neimoidian invasion of Naboo had turned disastrous and Obi-Wan had bested him inside the Theed power core.

His hermitage on Lotho Minor, his lessons on Unbara, his restoration by Mother Talzin, and his training of Savage had all strengthened him, made him a more worthy vessel for the dark side to fill with its power.

But strong as he had become, Maul found himself in awe of Sidious.

The Sith Lord was astonishingly fast and efficient, and the Force flowed through him effortlessly. His sabers stabbed and slashed through the smallest hole in an opponent’s guard, his movements never carried him a millimeter out of position, and he could sense every attack Maul and Savage made before it developed.

I think you are right, Maul become stronger, according to this book. (The Clone Wars: Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy).

Dooku wins 8.5-9/10 times. Also, I don't watch the series, but I believe this was covered in TCW.

@erkan12: Just because you yell doesn't mean you use Dark Rage.

@elderstarlord117: It wasn't covered in the series. They originally planned to do it and even had Maul say they will deal with "this Sith pretender Dooku" but the show got cancelled before they could expand on it.

@deathstroke19: TCW was getting better just as Disney cancelled it :(

@shootingnova: I KNOW!!!! It was GREAT the last season and as soon as they get things really going they cancel the show. That show was my childhood and its so depressing to see it be cancelled :( especially at the time that they did cancel it.

At least they are making two more arcs for 2014 to rap some things up although I'm still extremely disappointed that their not rapping things up with Maul >:(

Dooku.

@deathstroke19: They have to wrap things up with Maul. The are either going to make some few extra "special episodes" or a final novel for him, make Resurrection the actual Maul, or make Old Wounds canon.

@shootingnova:

Idk what they will do but they better do something so they don't just set this thing up for 2 seasons and then leave us hanging for eternity by leaving the story the way it is.

Regarding the fight, Dooku wins as he beats Maul in just about everything. Strength is really the only debatable issue here - and even if Maul was ahead it would be by a very slim, insignificant amount. Dooku had no trouble with Grievous, somebody who has greater strength and resiliency than Maul.

@shootingnova: Agreed.

Maul stomps

Dooku may be Maul's superior in most areas but Maul will find a way.

LOL. I have no idea how you can find a way to stomp if your opponent is superior to you in every way.

Dooku's overconfidence is his weakness while Maul's faith in the force is his strength.

@immortal777: You mean the reverse, right? Yeah...

@shootingnova: Yea, it's the reverse I can't think of a legit reason for Maul to take a majority unless I use ABC logic.

Maul fought Obi Wan and Qui Gon Jinn >Obi Wan beat Anakan>Anakin beat Dooku so Maul >>Dooku. That's the best I can do.

@immortal777: LOL. How about Dooku beat Obi-Wan who beat Maul. Horrible logic, but still.....

i would really wish for maul to kick dookus ass in a fight. dooku has proven to be a coward and maul is a true blood lusted warrior. maul is more worthy of being a true sith but id have to give victory to tyrannus... i think if the rule of 2 had been broken and sidious had trained maul and dooku at the same time, maul would have become more powerful than dooku ;)

i say maul, but i don't have may points to prove this :/ the only feats that i have are: he killed jin, beat obi every fight, endured a very very long fight against palpatine, and if i remember well, Jin and Dooku were sparring partners, and usually those fights ened in draw, though that is not a super feat... mmmmmmm i think that maul is faster, strongest, more more durable, more agile, more savage, a little, but just a little bit better fighter in H2H and with the lightsaber, and evil. And i think that Dooku is more powerful in the use of the force (lighting,TK, TP). However i think that maul is powerfull enought to resist that powers and win the battle, but as i said before i dont have enough feats to prove that.

I don't recall Jinn stalemating Dooku, who is the second best duelist in the Order, and frankly, by feats, he shouldn't. By comparison, Dooku is appreciably faster, considerably more skilled and vastly more powerful, although the latter element wouldn't serve him at all in a pure lightsaber spar.

Against TPM Maul, I say Dooku wins about 8/10. Slightly (almost negligibly) faster, a bit more skilled, considerably more powerful. Maul is stronger, but actually not by that much, and it wouldn't matter as much as some people might like to believe. Maul definitely has better durability, but won't really help him win the fight, only make prolong the fight. In overall physical traits, I put TPM Maul around RotS Kenobi, who could challenge Dooku but not defeat him. Maul is probably stronger than Kenobi, though, and that may create some issues, but not overwhelming ones. In the Force, Kenobi has better feats than TPM Maul, but we know that they both haven't really been pushed to their limits before, although Maul appears to be more casual with his feats. For that, and the fact that he did once note that he restrained himself from unleashing a barrack-razing Force Scream, I think I would put them as even, or Maul ahead. Dooku stomped Obi-Wan with the Force, but frankly, it doesn't sound right to suggest Dooku could stomp TPM Maul with the Force.

I actually don't believe Dooku has better TP, honestly. Maul clouding TPM Kenobi's mind while fighting both Kenobi and Jinn at once is as good a feat as any TP feat Dooku has, like controlling a pirate to kill one of his companions, which may have just been him using TK to manipulate the pirate's arm and fingers to press the trigger, but that's ambiguous. And if that isn't a feat, then I don't really recall many other TP feats for Dooku. Using Drain Knowledge on AotC Obi-Wan comes to mind, but Kenobi was still able to partially resist it even then he was having difficulty calling upon the Force due to electrocution.

In any case, TP would never enter a fight between them, and Maul would be able to resist it anyways.

Dooku could win because of his force powers, but even then, its not like Maul is going to just let up and allow himself to be ragdolled. If Maul was going to fall to anyone proficient in force powers Obi Wan would of had his way years ago. As would Qui Gon. I think this fight ends in a lightsaber duel which very well could go to Maul, given thats his speciality.

Is anyone really defending maul? Cool looks blind your reasoning. Dooku is at master level, Maul is slightly above post aprentice level. Dooku is known to be one of the best duelist of his time, being at Mace Windus level of swordsmanship. Maul may be a very good duelist, he managed to beat Qui-Gon Jinn, a very experienced jedi. But still, Obi Wan as a padawan gave him a fight and managed to beat him at the end. Dooku just knocked Obi Wan easy after he becomes a full jedi and beats Anakin, one of the most prominent padawans there are, with not much effort. Add now Dooku's force abilities, which are terribly overpowered compared to Maul's. Only thing Maul could count as an advantage is stamina. Still, Dooku has enough to beat him 5 times or more if he somehow managed to resurect after being Dookuezd!

@linark: @linark:

Is anyone really defending maul? Cool looks blind your reasoning.

Because god forbid anyone had a different opinion to you without being blinded.

Dooku is at master level, Maul is slightly above post aprentice level.

Not even close. Maul was easily at master level even before the age of 22 when he fought Obi-Wan and Qui Gon. He's been stated by an omniscient writer to be at master level numerous times, and the fact that hes easily overwhelmed a ranged of Jedi, whether they be High Council Member, Master, Knight or Padawan, easily supports this. He even engages four droids programmed with the skills of a dozen "master" martial artists, purposely programmed to try and kill him, as a casual exercise. For you to say he is anything short of a master combatant just shows your complete ignorance on the character.

Dooku is known to be one of the best duelist of his time, being at Mace Windus level of swordsmanship. Maul may be a very good duelist, he managed to beat Qui-Gon Jinn, a very experienced jedi. But still, Obi Wan as a padawan gave him a fight and managed to beat him at the end.

Maul is also known to be one of the greatest duelists of his time.. scratch that - he is one of the greatest of his time. Maul engaged Qui Gon (a high council member and "master") and Obi Wan (who was essentially a Knight at this time), who were both using an aggressive ataru style, and his defence didn't falter. His stamina held up and he won the fight. Once he got Qui Gon alone he began dominating him and defeated him. Then, Obi-Wan, even after receiving an amp from the force after seeing Qui Gon die, still wasn't able to beat Maul and was essentially beaten by him. The only reason he won is PIS. Maul could of killed him so many ways but for once decided to start messing about like he never usually does. So no, they didn't really give him a good fight. He beat both of them.

Dooku just knocked Obi Wan easy after he becomes a full jedi and beats Anakin, one of the most prominent padawans there are, with not much effort.

TCW Maul was never bested by Obi Wan and even overwhelmed him at times, so I don't see how this is different from Dooku beating an exhausted Obi-Wan during TCW. And he beat an arrogant and not yet ready Anakin in TCW, a feat Maul easily could of replicated given his discipline, training and skill. Maul in my eyes should be, and has nearly proven decisively, that he's Obi-Wans superior, much like Dooku had. It's just a shame he is such an underused character when there's so much potential there.

Add now Dooku's force abilities, which are terribly overpowered compared to Maul's. Only thing Maul could count as an advantage is stamina.

Yeah.. Dooku isn't that far ahead of Maul in force powers. In offensive ones, sure, he has an edge due to his TK and lightning. But these aren't advantages Maul hasn't overcome before, and due to the ferociousness of his fighting style Dooku wouldn't even get a chance to utilize them. AND on top of that, Dooku never starts his fights with force abilities anyway so it's a moot point.

Mauls advantages, in my eyes, are as follows

• Strength
• Durability
• Stamina

Things I frankly see to be quite even are:

• Speed
• Lightsaber and martial arts skill

Disadvantages for Maul:

• Force powers

So I see this as a pretty even fight. Which is remarkable given Maul is so much younger and less experienced than Dooku. If Maul as a character isn't wasted like he was during TPM, and was given time to reach his potential as he ages, he would be unstoppable.

Still, Dooku has enough to beat him 5 times or more if he somehow managed to resurect after being Dookuezd!

Dooku would be lucky not to collapse from exhaustion after one round with Maul, never mind 5. You're either trolling or extremely uneducated on Maul as a character.

@i_like_swords: Coming from a guy with maul as avatar i expected a lot of fanboyism. So, Obi Wan killing Maul is PIS, but Maul killing 4 droids with the knowledge of 12 martial artists, jedi masters etc isnt. Or how after the movies made him the "cool sith every kid liked" the PIS in the animated series started, were he suddenly is much stronger than the EU states. Please, tell me how its PIS when you want it and not when you dont want it. Oh and its not a diferent opinion. Maul is the most overrated SW character ever. The fact that you are comparing him to a Master such as Dooku, stated EVERYWHERE to be one of the stronger jedis of its time, shows how much fanboyism there is behing Maul.

Obi Wan wasnt a knight when he defeated Maul. He was still a padawan, even if it was practically a knight allready. When fighting Dooku, he was a full pledged jedi, much stronger than when he fought Maul. You cant negate that. Obi Wan was stated to be one of the most proficient jedis of its time. And still Dooku bested him easy. And ye, Anakin may be arrogant, but Maul is arrogant too. Thats why Obi Wan won him before. For being an arrogant fool. But still Anakin, as told even by Mace Windu and Obi Wan several times, could even be a match for Yoda (obviouslly, he wont win) in sword fighting. Dooku still wins Anakin without any type of cheat of interference. And he does it without much sweat. Anakin is like Maul: has a lot of stamina, strength, is impulsive and excells in sword fighting. And still, owned.

But the worse thing your saying is that Mauls force abilities arent that far from Dookus. Show me proove of that please. And that "Dooku never starts his fights with force abilities anyway so it's a moot point" is such a huge understatement. He does start using the force, for example, when fighting Yoda. And if agresive sword fighter wouldnt let force users use the force due to relentless assaults, sword duelist would be the strongest by far as they could negate the advantage of heavy force users. That, of course, is another understatement. Its not like if using the force means to chant a spell and focus for a long time. It can be instant. And lets face it, the most powerfull jedis/siths tend to be force users rather than sword users. Darth Sidious is considered a powerhouse because he has insanelly powerfull force powers. And he can still fight with a sword. Just like Dooku. This was a mismatch.

Plus, Dooku is freaking Christopher Lee.

@linark:

Coming from a guy with maul as avatar i expected a lot of fanboyism.

Just because I have Maul as my avatar doesn't make me a blind fanboy. I just think, as someone who is gradually learning more and more about Maul and Star Wars as a whole, that Maul is being undersold in this thread, especially by you at this point. Also, just some advice: tone down this aggressive debating style you're waving about. Calling people fanboys and mocking the opinion of others makes you look a lot less credible and people will be much less likely to listen to you, especially considering you're a new user. Nobody likes the new guy who comes in like he's an expert starting fights in every thread.

So, Obi Wan killing Maul is PIS

Yes. Because Maul had beaten him and could of killed him whenever he liked. And considering Maul was trained from infancy until he was 22 to kill Jedi, he absolutely hated them and thought they were massive hypocrites, and never before hesitated to end his opponents life, it makes no sense that he'd start messing about when he could of completed his mission and killed Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan logically only survived because if he hadn't the whole trilogy plot would of fallen apart (anakin wouldn't of had Obi as a master for starters). Point is Maul won their duel. He was just a victim of PIS in the last 20 seconds of it when he easily could of just killed Obi-Wan.

but Maul killing 4 droids with the knowledge of 12 martial artists, jedi masters etc isnt

No. Because he was trained to do those things from infancy. And he has done them on a consistent basis. His feats aren't remotely comparable to Obi-Wan killing him because Obi Wan only killed him because of plot. He lost the duel itself. Plus he was barely a knight when he dueled Maul, so it makes no sense for him to best him.

Or how after the movies made him the "cool sith every kid liked" the PIS in the animated series started, were he suddenly is much stronger than the EU states

What PIS in the animated series? Plus the animated series is EU so your point is kind of irrelevant.

Oh and its not a diferent opinion. Maul is the most overrated SW character ever. The fact that you are comparing him to a Master such as Dooku, stated EVERYWHERE to be one of the stronger jedis of its time, shows how much fanboyism there is behing Maul.

So you're saying it's a universally agreed upon and completely non-subjective fact that Dooku beats Maul? Got a source for that? Because last time I checked they've never dueled and there is nothing specifically stating Dooku could beat Maul. It's a subjective matter and therefore we can only give opinions.

Just like it's your opinion that Maul is overrated. I don't overrate him, I take him for what he is.

Why do you keep saying "MASTER" like it means anything when Maul has blatantly been given this tag aswell? And please, stop calling me a fanboy in order to justify your uninformed opinion.

Obi Wan wasnt a knight when he defeated Maul. He was still a padawan, even if it was practically a knight allready. When fighting Dooku, he was a full pledged jedi, much stronger than when he fought Maul. You cant negate that.

He had the skill of a knight and was ready to become one. The ceremony of his knighting was only a formality at this point. And yes, but when he fought Dooku, he was exhausted. Also, Maul has fought and gotten the better of Obi-Wan while he's a fully fledged Jedi too. In this video Obi-Wan even states "we're outmatched". The fight is sketchy up until the end where Obi Wan gets his lightsaber back and him and Maul have a chance to have an uninterfered 1v1, where Maul again comes out on top.

Obi Wan was stated to be one of the most proficient jedis of its time. And still Dooku bested him easy. And ye, Anakin may be arrogant, but Maul is arrogant too. Thats why Obi Wan won him before. For being an arrogant fool.

Maul has only ever shown his arrogance against Obi-Wan in TPM after he had beaten him. I personally haven't seem him do anything other than efficiently kill his opponents since then. Also I don't get how saying "Obi Wan/Dooku/Anakin were one of the best of their time" has anything to do with this battle. That title has also been given to Maul so I don't see your point.

But still Anakin, as told even by Mace Windu and Obi Wan several times, could even be a match for Yoda (obviouslly, he wont win) in sword fighting. Dooku still wins Anakin without any type of cheat of interference. And he does it without much sweat. Anakin is like Maul: has a lot of stamina, strength, is impulsive and excells in sword fighting. And still, owned.

Anakin was never even remotely comparable to Yoda pre-Vader. Beating Anakin while he's a young arrogant knight who thinks he can take on the best isn't difficult, and might I remind you who exactly it was that ended up killing Dooku. Anakin has stamina and strength like Maul, but when you say Maul is impulsive, arrogant and anything short of a master, you're just wrong. And Mauls skill with a lightsaber IMO exceeds Anakins during TCW and is about even during ROTS. He had trained much longer and harder than Anakin from a better teacher, and was a much more disciplined and determined fighter. There's no comparison for them being similar to be honest.

But the worse thing your saying is that Mauls force abilities arent that far from Dookus. Show me proove of that please. And that "Dooku never starts his fights with force abilities anyway so it's a moot point" is such a huge understatement. He does start using the force, for example, when fighting Yoda. And if agresive sword fighter wouldnt let force users use the force due to relentless assaults, sword duelist would be the strongest by far as they could negate the advantage of heavy force users. That, of course, is another understatement. Its not like if using the force means to chant a spell and focus for a long time. It can be instant. And lets face it, the most powerfull jedis/siths tend to be force users rather than sword users. Darth Sidious is considered a powerhouse because he has insanelly powerfull force powers. And he can still fight with a sword. Just like Dooku. This was a mismatch.

They aren't.. when he wants to be he's exceptionally proficient in TK, being able to drag an X-Wing down a hill, having to restrain himself from collapsing a barracks with a Force-scream, being able to send Obi-Wan flying with TK during another fight.

Name one more instance where Dooku opens up a fight with force abilities. In many of his fights he relies only on his lightsaber combat. Silver dropped a whole list of them on the page before this one. And as I said, Maul wouldn't give him a chance given the short starting distance and his ferocious fighting technique.

Darth Sidious is considered a powerhouse, partly because of his crazy force abilities. Also partly because of his absolutely amazing speed, being able to appear invisible before the likes of Anakin. He is also a lightsaber combatant far more skilled than Dooku and Maul put together, so bringing him up is just irrelevant when Dooku is nowhere near his level.

This isn't a mismatch and you're the only one who thinks that.

@i_like_swords: Actually im not the only one who thinks this is a mismatch. Read the comments. Dooku stomps. Most of your feats come from the animated series who basically take the EU and change it for kids entertainment sake. Also, show me any evidence that states that Maul is considered one of the tops of his time. Also, the personality change in TCW should give you an example on how the animated series are just a way to attract kids into the SW universe. Im not saying Maul isnt an awesome character. Or weak. But Dooku is a damn Holocron Researcher, considered a Master. meanwhile Maul isnt even master. Sidious calls him "assasin", he isnt even a proper apprentice. Assasins are trained to kill targets fast. Dooku wont fall for that or Sith Master would be just too easy to deal. There were so many Assasins during the Old Republic, and msot of them didnt pose any threat to sith lords and Jedi masters.

Hmm... before I started reading this thread, I would have said Dooku wins. Now, I am not so sure.

I think just the simple fact that Anakin was able to beat Dooku in RotS, kind of suggests that Maul would be able to do so as well... because I feel like Maul was at least on the same swordsmanship level as RotS Anakin. But, unlike Anakin, Maul always seemed very focused/disciplined.

For now, I say Maul wins 6/10.

There are several well thought-out comments and breakdowns from Star Wars experts stating they think it's a good fight, that specifically Dooku wouldn't stomp, and that he would win 7-8 or 8-9 times out of 10. That's very different from you saying "this is a mismatch, stomp!"

Actually a lot of what I'm saying is combined knowledge from novels, the animated series, the movies to an extent and also what other knowledgable viners have shared. I haven't even started reading the comics yet but there's bound to be more about Maul there.

Alright, here's some skill feats of Mauls, as well as some uses of the label "master":

The dueling droids were programmed to kill. There were four of them, top-of-the-line Duelist Elites from Trang Robotics, all armed in different ways: one with a steel rapier, one with a heavy cudgel, the third with a short length of chain, and the last with a pair of double-edged hachete fighting blades as long and wide as a human’s forearm. They had been programmed with the skills of a dozen martial arts masters, and their reflexes were calibrated just a hair faster than human optimum. Their durasteel chassis were blaster-resistant. They had come factory-equipped with behavioral inhibitors that prevented them from delivering a death blow once their opponent had been beaten, but these inhibitors had been nullified by their new owner. A mistake against one would be fatal. Darth Maul did not make mistakes.

Taken from -- Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

Superhuman reflexes, durasteel blaster-resistant chassis', and the skills of a dozen martial arts masters each. Also, all armed with varying weapons to further keep someone on their toes. And they were programmed to kill Maul. This is only a training exercise for him which he completes with relative ease in 60 seconds. So there's Maul showing his skill against four "masters".

Any Jedi Knight could wield a single-bladed lightsaber; only a master fighter could use the weapon first designed by the legendary Dark Lord Exar Kun millennia ago. Unless one was in perfect attunement with it, the weapon could be as deadly to the user as to the opponent.

Taken from -- Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

This quote here states that only a master fighter could use a double-bladed lightsaber like Maul, and that if you weren't in perfect attunement with it, you could end up killing yourself with it opposed to an opponent.

Now aside from those two pieces of evidence centering around this idea of Maul being a "master", there's the fact he defeated Qui Gon Jinn as well as Obi-Wan Kenobi in TPM. Qui Gon being a master and high council member, Obi Wan being a padawan who was essentially a knight.

Also, Maul has stomped one of Dookus old apprentices (Korami Vosa) while injured. Not saying that Maul could stomp Dooku just because of this, but if he can stomp someone taught by him, while coming off being shot in the shoulder by a blaster, it only makes my case look a bit better:

Gripping the lightsaber’s hilt, he squared his shoulders and swung again, thrusting his blade at her in a series of perfectly angled slashes. Vosa came back at him on the offense, both blades spinning. “Jar’Kai,” Maul snarled, deflecting her assault on reflex. “Predictable.” He swung the lightsaber down, but at that moment the corridor shook again, jerking sideways, throwing them both off. Vosa recovered first, darting back, again too quick, and the speed with which she evaded his attack only inflamed the rage inside Maul’s mind, stoking his wrath until it crystallized into a kind of malignant grace. Now he gripped the lightsaber in both arms, forcing his damaged right arm into service and gripping the hilt of his saber with his full strength. It was time for Juyo, the Way of the Vornskr —the last of the Seven Forms. He seized upon it eagerly, allowing himself to be swept up in the chaotic frontal assault of thrusts, slashes, and jabs. “Maul—” A tremor of new fear pulsed across Vosa’s face, disrupting her composure, as if she’d finally recognized the true ferocity of his purpose. Darting backward into a desperate evasive measure , Vosa whirled one of her blades behind her, hacking loose a massive shelf of surgical instruments from its place on the wall, and with a swing of the hand she used a Force push to fire them at him in a glinting storm of steel. Maul ducked the flying instruments and bobbed back up with a silent snarl. In his mind, the duel was all but over —his opponent was now dragging out the inevitable moment of defeat in a series of small humiliations. By turning to such diversionary tactics, Vosa had all but admitted that she was no match for the erratic staccato blows that he was delivering, seemingly from everywhere, all at once. Kill her. Kill her now. Then you may deliver the weapon to any of the Bando Gora who remain. Pivoting easily, he swung out at her, the dark side streaming so powerfully from him now that it seemed to be pouring forth in great, explosive torrents . His blade was moving almost too fast to see, cutting great fan-shaped swaths in the air around him.

Star Wars: Maul: Lockdown

I've had to trim the fight here and there and it's still too long to quote the whole thing, but the point is this:

Despite Maul initially holding back, not wanting to kill her because of his missino, having been shot in the shoulder at point blank by a blaster, and even not having his own lightsaber but rather a makeshift one, he still manages to get her into a killing position numerous times and even has her trying to escape near the end, once he starts fighting seriously. Imagine this was a fresh Maul, with his saberstaff, no injury, no holding back, no ship throwing off him and Vosas' balance. The fight would of ended with her death far quicker than this one did.

Also, here is Maul proving he is far superior to Anoon Bondara, a master Jedi and master of the Teras Kasi fighting arts:

He pressed the attack viciously, blocking and thrusting, the twin radiant blades spinning a web of light about him. The Jedi was obviously a master of the teräs käsi fighting arts, as well, judging by the smooth way he parried and counterattacked. Still, within the first few moments of the engagement, Darth Maul knew that he himself was the superior fighter. He could tell that the Jedi knew it, too, but Maul also knew that it didn’t matter. The Jedi was committed to stopping the Sith, or at the very least slowing him down enough to let the others get away, even if it meant giving his own life to do so.

Darth Maul had seen the grim realization in the eyes of his foe: the knowledge that the Twi’lek could not defeat his adversary. Once defeat was conceded in the mind, its reality was inevitable . It was only a matter of time. He pressed his attack to an even higher intensity, driving the Jedi back toward his speeder bike, intending to pin him between the dual-bladed lightsaber and the bike. With his movements thus constricted, it would be mere moments before the Twi’lek’s tentacled head was separated from his neck. But then he saw the desperation in the other’s face suddenly give way to realization, and then to triumph. Quickly, before Maul could intuit what was

intended, the Jedi whirled toward the speeder bike, raised his lightsaber— and plunged it to the hilt into the bike’s repulsor drive housing. Maul realized his suicidal intention, but too late. The superheated energy blade melted with lightning swiftness through the housing and sank into the bike’s power cell core. Maul turned and leapt from the platform, reaching for the dark side, enfolding himself in it even as the power cell exploded, the heat and pressure wave vaporizing the Jedi in a microsecond and then expanding, reaching hungrily for him, as well.

Taken from -- Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

Anoon basically committed all of his efforts to defence, because he knew he couldn't defeat Maul and he wanted to let his padawan escape. Maul is then a second away from killing him when he creates an explosion with a speeder engine, killing himself and trying to take Maul with him (obviously, Maul escapes the blast).

Qui Gon Jinn, Anoon Bondara (Masters/High Council), Obi-Wan Kenobi (Knight/Master) and Komari Vosa (Former padawan of Dooku) are all names on Mauls list of Jedi that he's either killed or defeated. In even fights with no interferences he's won against all of them decisively, and even won against Vosa while severely injured from a blaster shot, not even using his own lightsaber. He trains against superhumanly fast droids with dozens of master-level skill sets each, and dispatches them easily. And it's stated that being able to use Mauls saberstaff requires mastery. And he's been stated to be a master of Teras Kasi fighting style.

Do you need any more proof that Maul is not only a master combatant in Dookus league, but is also one of the best of his time, or are you still unconvinced?

@omnicrono: Dooku was holding back because Palpatine wanted to test Skywalker.

Dooku wins 7/10 times if Maul is lucky.

Is that explicitly stated somewhere?

@i_like_swords: Dude, dont get all the info from the Darth Maul series, as, in an attempt to mistify the character to appeal directly to the reader, theyll contradict many SW past statements. This happens in all comics from all over the world. The protagonist gets hyped by the writter. Double edged lightswords dont require master levels of skill. They are indeed a bit harder, but as stated in the KOTOR saga, its just an unlikely selection of lightsaber cause it requires longer practice times and doesnt really provide that much of a diference if compared to two lightsabers users. From what you can get from the saga and other Old Republic double lightsaber users, its made for fast frantic attacks and excells at deflecting lasers, but its actually not that good as a defensive weapon as it doesnt have so many usable stances, due to the fact that the hilt is long and heavier. Its actually not that used because most specialist end up using 1 or 2 lightsabers and so its usage is limited to some rare jadi/siths, and sith assasins of the old republic. Qui gon Jinn wasnt in its prime, neither was Obi Wan, plus, they had never fought a double bladed lightsaber advanced user. And defeating bots with martials arts master abilities doesnt even come close to Jedi Masters or Sith Lords. Those robots are in human master levels. Not jedi/sith master levels. Its totally diferent. And now think it this way: If Maul was supposed to be so great, and he was a match even for Dooku, why wouldnt they keep him? He was just a plot needed bad guy. They added some fancy martial arts and a double lightsaber and wala! youve got TPM favourite character. Sidiuos himself called him a "puppet to be used", he also called that to Dooku, but Dooku was allready very old and he had found Anakin allready, who had much more potential. Still Dooku has experience, as alrleady stated, has researched the korriban holocrons, AND MOST IMPORTANT he can stand toe to toe in lightsaber fighting with mace windu. Mace Windu would rip Maul apart. And still, Dooku can tie gim. Dont know why i didnt used this argument before haha, forgot it.

@linark: LOL well it looks my efforts were just wasted. Whatever man you're clutching at straws now. You've shown none of your own evidence about why Dooku is so much better than Maul so I don't know why I'm bothering. I could throw millions of quotes at you and you'd just keep thinking of excuses as to why they're not valid.

Also, about this apparent overhyping of protagonists. In Shadow Hunter, Maul isn't the only protagonist. There are several other main characters in the book who the writer will write sections for from their perspective. The same characters Maul killed. So that protagonist favoratism argument really isn't valid. The rest of your reasons really aren't even worth addressing. I mean you said "Beating droids isn't the same as beating Jedi masters", in a post where I blatantly showed Maul defeating two Jedi masters.

@i_like_swords: Ok he can beat two jedi masters, i didnt said he couldnt, There are tons of other siths and jedis of inferior rank beating other jedi masters or sith lords throughout the SW unvierse. For the sake of plots and stories. I said its not the same as beating 4 jedi masters cause you were refering to 4 bots with human martial arts master level. Not the same. Not shown evidence were, please. You mean refering to vague phrases from punctual sites? ok lets play your game instead of giving general facts that proove Dooku is stronger than Maul.

Double lightsaber use doesnt mean anything special, theres even a jedi called Pong krell who uses TWO double lightsabers and he isnt a famous jedi or even a reknowned one. He had 4 arms ye, but still, it prooves learning to fight with them doesnt mean you are anything special. During the Old Republic Sith Assasins, which were force sensitive not fully pledged siths used saberstaffs commonly, which are used very similar to double lightsabers, and the elite among them used doublelightsabers. Dont let the term sith ASSASIN fool you. They were normally no match for skilled jedis. And still, using double lightsabers. One of your points nullified.

Maul defeating one of Dookus apprentices prooves anything? Then obi Wan can defeat Sidious haha. You failed hard here. Its an APPRENTICE, not Dooku. Besides, Maul got taught by Sidious himself, which is far stronger than Dooku. But still, theres no feat from Maul that prooves he can best Dooku even in hand to hand combat. Btw, it was Dooku who killed Vosa just by force choking her. What would prevent him from doing that to a middle class force user like Maul.

'Count Dooku was one of the greatest Jedi/Sith in the Galaxy. Although he was a bit of a demagogue and delved deeply in philosophy, he was extremely knowledgeable in the ways of the force, frequently using it in battle. As a Sith, he possesed a red lightsaber with a curved handle. With it, he was a deadly duelist. In fact, he was one of the few force-users known for using the second lightsaber form, Makashi, as it was obsolete by his time, or at least was considered so. He was thought of as a match for Yoda and was one of only two (the other was Yoda) beings capable of defeating Mace Windu in combat.

This is from comic vine itself, i dont have much time at the moment to search for more, but its still made of general SW fiction knowledge. If you proove that Maul could go toe to toe with Mace Windu ill give it to you that Maul can beat Dooku due to stamina issues.

In Resurrection, a Darth Maul EXACT clone created by Darth Sidious using all the fight and simulation data he had from Darth Maul attacked a still apprentice Darth Vader and lost. This wasnt that far from when Anakin defeated Dooku. This prooves how damn good Anakin is as a fighter, totally surpassing Maul. And as Darth Vader, Anakin lost a lot of movility therefore being a worse fighter than before. Thats why Darth Vader relied mostly in a combo made of melee+force usage to surpass his crippled body limitations. So, can Maul defeat Anakin? No. He allready tried against Darth Vader which has limitations in melee combat and still was beaten. Dooku on the other hand easilly won Anakin the first time and the second its debatable he didnt try to kill him due to Sidious demands. In the novel Dooku looses cause he doesnt try to kill Anakin as fast as he did the first time and Anakin's seer amounts of strenght end wearing down Dookus lower stamina. And as pointed early, Anakin is a much better fighter than Maul will ever be.

Force usage:

Dooku has both light and dark force usage feats, like healing, choking, living force or lightning. He was specialized in telekinesis and had Yoda and Sidious as masters, the greatest force users of his time. He was also an expert on distracting the enemy using a sith technique, Dun Moch.

He had studied sith Holocrons in Korriban which had ancient Sith knowledge, being an erudit as he was. He backed up this sith learning with dozens of years of experience as one of the most promising Jedis from the order. Yoda himself calls him "Their greatest student, their greatest mistake". Tell me ONE scene/phrase etc were Maul is considered the greatest of anything.

And also, this Dooku vs Maul has been done before in this web and Dooku won.

@linark: I don't know why I'm even bothering at this point....

Ok he can beat two jedi masters, i didnt said he couldnt, There are tons of other siths and jedis of inferior rank beating other jedi masters or sith lords throughout the SW unvierse. For the sake of plots and stories. I said its not the same as beating 4 jedi masters cause you were refering to 4 bots with human martial arts master level. Not the same. Not shown evidence were, please. You mean refering to vague phrases from punctual sites? ok lets play your game instead of giving general facts that proove Dooku is stronger than Maul.

So how exactly does a Sith in your eyes obtain the title of "Master"? Because it's only Jedi who use the term in their ranks. Sith padawans/knights are referred to as Acolytes if I remember correctly, and are then given the title Sith "Lord", as well as "Darth", when they reach their higher ranks (both things both Maul and Dooku have been credited with).

So if obtaining the highest possible rank among the Sith, defeating master level Jedi on numerous occasions, practicing against master-level droids, being called a master by a writer, and also being a master of a specific martial art, isn't enough to be known as a "Master", what is? Seriously, answer that.

Double lightsaber use doesnt mean anything special, theres even a jedi called Pong krell who uses TWO double lightsabers and he isnt a famous jedi or even a reknowned one. He had 4 arms ye, but still, it prooves learning to fight with them doesnt mean you are anything special. During the Old Republic Sith Assasins, which were force sensitive not fully pledged siths used saberstaffs commonly, which are used very similar to double lightsabers, and the elite among them used doublelightsabers. Dont let the term sith ASSASIN fool you. They were normally no match for skilled jedis. And still, using double lightsabers. One of your points nullified.

So what you're saying is you're right and the writer is wrong? Erm, I think I'll go with the writer on this one.

Maul defeating one of Dookus apprentices prooves anything? Then obi Wan can defeat Sidious haha. You failed hard here. Its an APPRENTICE, not Dooku. Besides, Maul got taught by Sidious himself, which is far stronger than Dooku. But still, theres no feat from Maul that prooves he can best Dooku even in hand to hand combat. Btw, it was Dooku who killed Vosa just by force choking her. What would prevent him from doing that to a middle class force user like Maul.

Lord help me.

How does that comparison even make sense in the slightest. You've basically taken what I've said and fully misinterpreted it, and even threw in a BS comparison that doesn't even parallel what I'm talking about here. I even blatantly said "Now I'm not saying because of this that Maul stomps Dooku, but if he can stomp someone Dooku trained while injured severely, it only helps my case". My case being that Maul and Dooku are equal in skill. Because if Maul can stomp someone Dooku trained then that means he's definitely above their level and closer to Dookus level. That's all. I wasn't saying "Obi wun beet anakin so he can beet sidious", like you're misinterpreting.

What do you mean "there's no feat that proves Maul can beat Dooku". Aside from the fact I've just showered you in feats and information from canon sources, youhaven't even given a shred of valid evidence for your non-existant case for Dooku. The burden of proof isn't on me any more than it's on you. I've actually given evidence, youhaven't, probably, because you don't even read any EU and get all your flaky information from Wikis which aren't even an official source, nor are they even accurate.

If Dooku could just force choke everyone to death don't you think he would have? I mean wow. He choked out his lackluster apprentice. Great. If Maul would so easily fall to a force choke don't you think someone would of used that kind of ability on him by now?

'Count Dooku was one of the greatest Jedi/Sith in the Galaxy. Although he was a bit of a demagogue and delved deeply in philosophy, he was extremely knowledgeable in the ways of the force, frequently using it in battle. As a Sith, he possesed a red lightsaber with a curved handle. With it, he was a deadly duelist. In fact, he was one of the few force-users known for using the second lightsaber form, Makashi, as it was obsolete by his time, or at least was considered so. He was thought of as a match for Yoda and was one of only two (the other was Yoda) beings capable of defeating Mace Windu in combat.

This is from comic vine itself, i dont have much time at the moment to search for more, but its still made of general SW fiction knowledge. If you proove that Maul could go toe to toe with Mace Windu ill give it to you that Maul can beat Dooku due to stamina issues.

...are you kidding me. "Comic vine itself". Do you actually know what comic vine is? It's a wiki. People volunteer to write wikis from their own knowledge and interpretations. Anything in a wiki could be wrong or just a biased opinion. It isn't canon content meaning it can't actually be used to decipher a characters abilities. If you had actually read any EU you'd be able to take a picture from a comic or quote something from a novel, but you actually can't of read any if you're copying from wikis. Why am I even debating against you..

In Resurrection, a Darth Maul EXACT clone created by Darth Sidious using all the fight and simulation data he had from Darth Maul attacked a still apprentice Darth Vader and lost.

Lol. For one, that wasn't even the official Darth Maul, meaning he doesn't share any feats with the original. For seconds, are you aware that during that fight the Maul clone constantly dominated, landed hits that would of been fatal had it not been for Vaders armor, and actually had him on the brink of death before an environmental factor saved Vader and gave him a chance to stab an off-balance Maul? Well, of course you wouldn't be aware, considering you probably read that information from a wiki and regurgitated it here. Do yourself a favor and learn the context of a fight before posting something about it.

The rest of that paragraph is just a useless attempt at ABC logic. And for the record, Maul was at a higher skill level than ROTS Anakin during TPM, and especially after his return. Anakin had a lot of raw power but less skill.

Force usage:

Dooku has both light and dark force usage feats, like healing, choking, living force or lightning. He was specialized in telekinesis and had Yoda and Sidious as masters, the greatest force users of his time. He was also an expert on distracting the enemy using a sith technique, Dun Moch.

..great. Maul healed and choked through the force aswell and has some knowledge on force lightning, being able to resist it and shrug it off. And besides that he could easily intercept it with his lightsaber. Yeah, Dooku had better TK, but if he could just ragdoll Maul whenever he pleased he'd of done it to both Anakin and Obi-wan during TCW, but he didn't, because it takes concentration, both to defend and attack with the force. He'd need to engage Maul in lightsaber combat to take away his concentration in order to use TK on him.

Dun Moch wouldn't work against Maul, at all. He has telepathic defences which has put a telepath into a coma before, and is an even more proficient telepath than Dooku as far as I know. And if he tried to use Dun Moch verbally, saying something like "I replaced you, I'm strong, you're weak" ect, it would only work against him. When he did it to Anakin during ROTS Anakins rage took over, made him more powerful, and he overpowered Dooku through sheer physical force, cutting off his hands. If he did it to Maul he would die even quicker, because Maul has shown on numerous occasions that when he is angered during a fight, it doesn't distract him, but it actually makes him more powerful and far more dangerous, allowing him to overpower his opponents and kill them quickly.

An enraged Maul as a result of Dun Moch would overpower Dooku in this scenario just like Anakin did. Maul would be in the exact same state as Anakin compared to Dooku - younger, in his prime, far faster and more physically powerful than Dooku - and adding on top of that that Anakin was only a dark Jedi at the time, not a fully fledged Sith Lord like Maul who had honed his rage as a powerful weapon and was able to channel it, making himself more powerful, and Dooku would have an even harder time coping with Mauls unrelenting assault.

He had studied sith Holocrons in Korriban which had ancient Sith knowledge, being an erudit as he was. He backed up this sith learning with dozens of years of experience as one of the most promising Jedis from the order. Yoda himself calls him "Their greatest student, their greatest mistake". Tell me ONE scene/phrase etc were Maul is considered the greatest of anything.

Maul also has dozens of years of training and experience.. so? And what has Yodas statement got to do with Maul vs Dooku? This is a fight, where feats are evaluated.. not useless statements.

Dooku

@i_like_swords: Woah! Look at you, flunting your Darth Maul knowledge around.

If you got it, flaunt it :D

Haha, cheers.

@i_like_swords: You give no damn decent statement other than "he killed some jedi masters and some robots" and say my statement which come from the damn freaking SW LORE are useless. Am i talking to a kid fanboy? now i see i am. You still havent delivered a single proof that states that Maul is better than Dooku at dueling, and the same goes for force usage. You base everything you say on understatements, punctual non context sentences and your own opinion (yes, you do). Everything i say you just claim there are millions of examples of how maul could do that. THEN SHOW ME. Show me Maul defeating anyone near Mace Windu. Show me Maul using Dun Moch or ignoring it. Show me ANYTHING that puts Maul between the greatest of his time. Show me Maul ignoring force choking or defeating a top tier class force user, and not Obi Wan in the damn animated series. You wont cause you cant. You read some Maul novel and you cant extrapolate. And you go with the writter? so, a writter ignores a complete saga like KOTOR (with its own novels) or the sith empire tons of siths that used doublelightsabers and you go with him because it suits you? tell me how much fanboyism is that. Read through the post, read through the older Dooku vs Maul posts. There are only some delusional Maul fanboys who still think Maul, a sith even Sidious called "tool" and "more of an assasin than an apprentice" is going to defeat one of the greatest Jedis there are. This has allready been done: Dooku wins.

Btw, by the rule of the two, a sith becomes a Master when he defeats his master. This applies to Maul. But, Sidious trained him to be a disposable asset. He had no real plan to let him reach the Master Status. Cause Maul is nothing but another sith. Comparing him to Anakin just shows how much of a fanboy you are.

Its also funny you claim i use ABC logic when you basically do that constantly with the "he killed this guy, so he can kill dooku". As i said, a kid that insults more than argues. Oh and yes, im also insulting you know. But you dont deserve a better treatment. You are just another selfrighteous jerk who believes he is "making a sacrifice when debating with inferior beings". That constant "i dont know why im even bothering" or "lord save me" are pathetic. If im so wrong and so out of your league, wtf are you still trying to debate every single of my points (with your "but in this comic he beats a jedi!" :_( and he is inmune to "X" because i say so, even if there are no feats regarding it)

How does that comparison even make sense in the slightest. You've basically taken what I've said and fully misinterpreted it, and even threw in a BS comparison that doesn't even parallel what I'm talking about here. I even blatantly said "Now I'm not saying because of this that Maul stomps Dooku, but if he can stomp someone Dooku trained while injured severely, it only helps my case". My case being that Maul and Dooku are equal in skill. Because if Maul can stomp someone Dooku trained then that means he's definitely above their level and closer to Dookus level. That's all. I wasn't saying "Obi wun beet anakin so he can beet sidious", like you're misinterpreting.

Really, this doesnt make any sense at all.

So, you say Maul is on Dookus level because he beats his apprentice (¿¿?? logic not found) and im the one not making sense. Please, explain. Cause that doesnt make sense too. I havent misinterpreted anything. You again said it: you think Maul can win Dooku or at least be at his level cause he won against an apprentice. Its still the same as saying someone beated Darth Sidious apprentice and therefore he is at Darth Sidious level. The level of stupidness here is astonishing.

Ye, i can play smartass jerk too and insult your reasoning like kids do. (Lord save me)

And yes, i did look some stuff up. Im so damn sure you did too. its more than enough for this case still. We arent putting two pretty equal jedis in an equal fight. Its a middle tier fanboy selling machine like Darth Maul vs a real Jedi powerhouse like Dooku. Its what researching is, you know, you look for stuff you arent sure of, and as i dont want to spend hours looking through pointless punctual anotations like you seem to do cause i prefer to use my time in other stuff, im going to generalizations. And heres one for you: People thinking Maul wins this: You and a couple more. People thinking Dooku takes this: the rest of comic vine. Have fun with your Darth Maul fleshlight.