Darth Maul (TCW) vs Darth Nihilus

Both Bloodlusted

Random Encounter

Takes place in Coruscant

Maul only has his Darksaber

All Movie and comic feats apply

10 ft apart

Bump

@darkdefender: I updated it now my friend

BUMP

@DarkDefender: Im also thinking Maul wins here but idk I would like to see more opinions as well

he wins as well 10ft away LOL XD

@darkdefender: In the Cut-Content, he dominates Sion.

He also would have instantly drained Meetra during that first drain in their fight, but Meetra was a wound in the force causing it to backfire and weaken Nihilus. He does not 'slowly weaken' people.

@Killerwasp: To funny man Lol

@Wut: who wins according to you?

@icecold14: Meh. Maul has no defense against drain. Nihilus is a drain monster. So... it really comes down to can Maul cross that distance and cut Nihilus before Nihilus Om Nom Noms him?

@Wut: do you think Maul is fast enough? Because hes pretty quick from what I seen....

@icecold14: wel with 10ft away it kinda is, not saying its bad it really is though its prolly gonna be maul winning 99% due to him being the better swordsman. Now if u gave it eh prolly 50ft away it'd be a draw to a point it'd be who can do it faster. XD

@icecold14: Maybe, Nihilus is a monster though. He outclasses Maul in the force so bad it isn't funny.

Telekinesis:

That massive ship he used, he used the force to lift it from the surface of the planet and his power holds it together.

Colonel Tobin: This ship... is it his weakness? It should not exist, yet it cruises the darkness between the stars. He tore it from the mass shadows of Malachor, along with his fleet... that is a measure of his power.

Canderous: Hnh. This ship is barely holding itself together. The structural damage should have destroyed it long ago.

Colonel Tobin: He holds it together.

Most Centurion-class battlecruisers are destroyed or captured by the end of the Jedi Civil War. However, during the Dark Wars, the Sith Lord Darth Nihilus managed to resurrect one of the crushed battlecruisers from Malachor V, turning the wreck of the Ravager into a spaceworthy ghost ship.

--Taken from the Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

He knows Force Stun

Although Darth Nihilus managed to stun the Exile, he was unprepared for the devotion of his former pupil Marr to the young woman.

--Taken from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

And he instantly drained Traya of her power.

Darth Traya indeed teaches the newly christened Darth Nihilus to harness his life-draining gift to radical heights—so effectively, in fact, that Nihilus saps Traya's powers in a calculated double-cross.

But Traya underestimates her disciples' depravity. They turn on her and drain her Force powers.

--Taken from the Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

Nihilus is not even a 'person' anymore. He lives within his robes.

Nothing matters except his hunger. Before it devours him totally, Nihilus uses its power to displace his persona into his robes and armor. As his useless body disintegrates, he becomes living primitive intention; at last, the whole of the galaxy becomes food—for Nihilus has become the hunger.

--Taken from the Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

He was defeated because he fought the only two beings that he couldn't drain which isn't the case here.

However, Traya reciprocates his betrayal by luring him into a confrontation with the Jedi Exile and Nihilus's own former apprentice. When Nihilus tries feeding on the Jedi, his hunger is mysteriously repelled, as if confronted by his exact polar opposite. Psychically starved by the effort, the Dark Lord falls to the Jedi, and Nihilus the man dissolves into oblivion.

--Taken from the Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

Although Darth Nihilus managed to stun the Exile, he was unprepared for the devotion of his former pupil Marr to the young woman. Marr tried to exchange her life for that of the Exile, giving the former Jedi time to recover. Together, they confronted Darth Nihilus. The Sith Lord was no match for their combined might, and he fell in battle.

--Taken from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Quotes and videos (save for the Sion one) taken from Silver2467's wonderfully created respect thread.

In essence, this fight isn't, "Can Maul blitz before Nihilus powers up his doom laser," this is, "Can Maul do enough damage to his 'body' to kill him before he raises his arm and om nom noms him?"

I am leaning towards no, so I would give Nihilus the victory. I could be wrong, Maul could be fast enough to cross that distance before Nihilus even raises his arm, but it just doesn't seem as likely to me.

Nothing indicates that Nihilus has increased durability or whatever because his persona is present only within his armor. Warb Null was similar and died to a lightsaber strike.

So yes, this is a who-hits-first scenario, or Nihilus might win via TK/Stun.

@shootingnova: Who are you leaning towards as the winner my friend?

@shootingnova: Really? How odd. I assumed it worked by forcing someone attacking them to destroy a majority of the object in question in order to disperse/damage enough of their 'persona'. But I guess it is just a method of preserving their life when their bodies are failing.

Meh, I am not fond of how that works, but if that is how it is then that is how it is.

@icecold14: Not sure. Probably Nihilus, but Maul might win via speedblitz.

Not really. One solid lightsaber slash is all Maul needs to cut through Nihilus's armor and vanquish him anyway.

Nihilus will get zabrak breakfast.

@shootingnova: oh alright so to you these two are evenly matched?

@icecold14: Not sure. Likely Nihilus for a majority, because based on his power showings, his Force Speed is probably enough to react.

@shootingnova: Oh alright than my friend :) i see this one is a tough one

Simply depends on where they start fighting and how far apart they are.

@shootingnova: I wasn't disputing you, I was just saying why I listed it before as I, mistakenly, thought it did something extra besides just slow down/prevent their bodies decaying because of *insert reason*.

I was, more so, lamenting that was the way things were in that it did not add anything in terms of durability.

@wut: Fair enough.

The OP has already provided settings.

@i_like_swords: Who wins here my friend?

@icecold14: @shootingnova: Maul could clear 10 feet faster than Nihilus could prepare a Force attack, unless I'm missing something.

@i_like_swords: Well, given how much more powerful Nihilus is than Maul, I'd argue that his Force Speed should be at least comparable. The best argument you could have is that Nihilus wouldn't care about Maul so much, which might allow Maul to get closer and try for a speedblitz, but the fact that the characters are bloodlusted will negate that possibility.

@shootingnova: I used to agree with that idea, but then the augmentation of Force Speed is still an individual Force power (sort of), and thus needs to be practiced to some degree. Maul just has better speed feats, so I figure he can speedblitz Nihilus.

@i_like_swords: I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you mean by "needs to be practiced". Vitiate never practiced anything since he was not a combatant, yet he still defeated Revan and utilized Force Speed against him well enough. The same applies for Gethzerion and Joruus C'baoth and other non-combatant Force users.

@shootingnova: Maul actively augments his Force speed in order to achieve some of his best feats. Nihilus would need to do the same to match Maul, but we haven't seen him do it.

@i_like_swords: I have no idea what you mean regarding Nihilus having to do the same to match Maul.

Nihilus augmented his speed well enough to fight off Meetra, Visas, and Mandalore. Mandalore is peak-human/superhuman, Visas is somewhat superhuman, and Meetra is at least comparable to Maul based on reasonable inference.

I really don't see why Nihilus's vastly greater power showings wouldn't translate to considerably greater Force Speed. Maul, of course, has the edge of a physical body to propel himself somewhat further, but even then, Nihilus would at least be able to react.

@shootingnova: Because Force speed is a power like any other - like telekinesis, Force strength ect. Maul, individually, is good at actively increasing his Force speed when he needs to achieve certain results, just like Nihilus actively uses telekinesis. Nihilus being more powerful than Maul can't instantly translate to him being able to augment his Force speed as well as Maul - it requires technique of some kind.

Maul is well beyond peak human/low super speed, and how do you figure Meetra is comparable to Maul?

Because he hasn't done it. I can't say Maul should be just as physically strong as Darth Malgus because their power is comparable - Malgus has better strength feats, because he's better at augmenting his strength. And that example can be reversed when we discuss Maul being faster than Malgus.

@i_like_swords: Passive Force speed does not require practice, nor does Force Speed in general. You ignored all my examples.

Meetra is comparable because her speed feats rival or exceed those of characters that have reacted to Maul before.

It's less of the fact that he hasn't done it than that we haven't seen it. We don't know the exact speed levels of Nihilus or the strike team that assassinated him, except based on Meetra's portrayal in the novel, and I have a long list of complaints about how she was unfairly portrayed in that source.

@shootingnova:

*sigh* No, I'm not ignoring anything. I know passive Force speed doesn't require practice. I'm referring to actively augmenting Force speed (such as when Maul speedblitzed Komari Vosa by drawing on the Dark Side, or when he traveled faster than droids and cameras could perceive). This is something Nihilus hasn't done as well as Maul.

So, if Maul actively augments his speed, he should clear 10 feet without issue and cut Nihilus down.

How does that even work? If a character reacts to Maul that's their own feat. You can't say "they did this so why can't X?"

Otherwise I could start pulling out silly arguments like this:

Darth Malgus had trouble wth Aryn Leneer who is featless so any non-featless character should beat Malgus.

Rough example? Yes. But the point stands, you can't always use what other characters can do as a basis instead of feats. This is something i wanted to go over in our Revan/Maul debate when you were claiming "X did well against Maul so why can't Revan" (paraphrasing heavily).

We haven't seen it, so we can't say he can do it.

Maul augments his Force speed better than Nihilus, therefore he can win by blitzing him.

@i_like_swords:

*sigh* No, I'm not ignoring anything. I know passive Force speed doesn't require practice. I'm referring to actively augmenting Force speed (such as when Maul speedblitzed Komari Vosa by drawing on the Dark Side, or when he traveled faster than droids and cameras could perceive). This is something Nihilus hasn't done as well as Maul.

So, if Maul actively augments his speed, he should clear 10 feet without issue and cut Nihilus down.

Maul augments his Force speed better than Nihilus, therefore he can win by blitzing him.

All you've proven is that Maul is faster, which nobody contested. None of this proves Maul is faster than Nihilus could even react.

And yes, you did ignore my points because you failed to address them.

How does that even work? If a character reacts to Maul that's their own feat. You can't say "they did this so why can't X?"

Otherwise I could start pulling out silly arguments like this:

Not true. Maul has never speedblitzed anybody of Meetra's speed class, and Meetra is just fast enough to react to Maul. Nihilus was about as fast as Meetra by approximation, so therefore, Nihilus can react. You need to prove that Maul can speedbltiz anybody of this speed class.

Darth Malgus had trouble wth Aryn Leneer who is featless so any non-featless character should beat Malgus.

Rough example? Yes. But the point stands, you can't always use what other characters can do as a basis instead of feats. This is something i wanted to go over in our Revan/Maul debate when you were claiming "X did well against Maul so why can't Revan" (paraphrasing heavily).

Who said anything about a featless character? I said Meetra's feats rival or exceed those of duelists who have reacted to Maul before, and therefore, she can react.

The onus is on you to prove Maul is fast enough to speedblitz anybody of that speed class, because he has never done anything like that, before.

@shootingnova:

Not true. Maul has never speedblitzed anybody of Meetra's speed class, and Meetra is just fast enough to react to Maul. Nihilus was about as fast as Meetra by approximation, so therefore, Nihilus can react.

What are her speed feats?

You need to prove that Maul can speedbltiz anybody of this speed class.

Nope - I just need to prove that Maul has better speed feats than them, by such a margin, that a speedblitz could be justified. What Maul has done to characters of a certain "class" has nothing to do with anything.

I said Meetra's feats rival or exceed those of duelists who have reacted to Maul before, and therefore, she can react.

So, Meetra has reacted to someone as fast as Maul? Because if someone reacts to Maul, that is their feat. The only way Meetra could replicate such a feat, is if she is in Maul's range of speed, or she has reacted to someone around that level.

If your only argument is "this character reacted to Maul, and they had no speed feats prior to this that surpass Meetra's, therefore Meetra can react" - then we have nowhere else to go. I again stress - if you react to Maul, that's your own speed feat. It's not a case of what they did before that, and how that compares with Meetra - it's a case of, has Meetra got feats to compare to Maul, to suggest she can react to him.

If Meetra doesn't have speed feats around Maul's level, your argument is essentially bust.

The onus is on you to prove Maul is fast enough to speedblitz anybody of that speed class, because he has never done anything like that, before.

No. It's up to you to prove that Meetra is fast enough to react to Maul, by comparing their feats - not what X, Y and Jim have done. Because what X, Y and Jim do is their accomplishment alone. They aren't in a designated class.

@i_like_swords: Would you care to address the instances with the characters such as Vitiate and Joruus C'baoth, which I brought up but never got a response to?

Nope - I just need to prove that Maul has better speed feats than them, by such a margin, that a speedblitz could be justified. What Maul has done to characters of a certain "class" has nothing to do with anything.

So because Maul is faster than somebody and has better speed feats, he can speedblitz them?

Just because Maul is faster than somebody doesn't allow him to simply speedblitz.

So, Meetra has reacted to someone as fast as Maul? Because if someone reacts to Maul, that is their feat. The only way Meetra could replicate such a feat, is if she is in Maul's range of speed, or she has reacted to someone around that level.

No, but Meetra has displayed enough to react to Maul.

If your only argument is "this character reacted to Maul, and they had no speed feats prior to this that surpass Meetra's, therefore Meetra can react" - then we have nowhere else to go. I again stress - if you react to Maul, that's your own speed feat. It's not a case of what they did before that, and how that compares with Meetra - it's a case of, has Meetra got feats to compare to Maul, to suggest she can react to him.

No, I said Meetra has better showings, and therefore she can react, which is not what you're making out my comment to be.

If Meetra doesn't have speed feats around Maul's level, your argument is essentially bust.

And if Maul isn't fast enough to speedblitz Meetra, then he isn't fast enough to speedblitz Nihilus.

No. It's up to you to prove that Meetra is fast enough to react to Maul, by comparing their feats - not what X, Y and Jim have done. Because what X, Y and Jim do is their accomplishment alone. They aren't in a designated class.

Meetra processing her opponents in less than a second and reacting faster than peak-human mercenaries (they did occur on a powerful dark side nexus, though) are her only showings from a novel which severely underplayed her.

That, combined with her own power showings, should give her Force Speed levels sufficient to react to Maul. And before you say it, yes, Meetra does practice active augmentations, because she has fought in countless battles against Sith, Dark Jedi, mercenaries, etc.

You can't just say Maul speedblitzes Nihilus because he's faster. Since when has Maul ever speedblitzed anybody of Nihilus's speed class? Nihilus >>>>>>> Maul in power, therefore, his Force Speed showings are just higher or at least comparable to Maul's. Your idea of them having to practice active Force speed is unsubstantiated and Nihilus contending with Visas, Meetra and Canderous all at once while weakened is enough of a feat to react to Maul.

What have their feats got to do with Nihilus? If they can demonstrate impressive levels of Force speed, more power to them.

So because Maul is faster than somebody and has better speed feats, he can speedblitz them?

Just because Maul is faster than somebody doesn't allow him to simply speedblitz.

No - I'm asking you for Meetra's speed feats. Stop undermining my argument by making out that I'm dealing in ideas as simple as "he's faster, speedblitz"

No, but Meetra has displayed enough to react to Maul.

No, I said Meetra has better showings, and therefore she can react, which is not what you're making out my comment to be.

And if Maul isn't fast enough to speedblitz Meetra, then he isn't fast enough to speedblitz Nihilus.

Meetra processing her opponents in less than a second and reacting faster than peak-human mercenaries (they did occur on a powerful dark side nexus, though) are her only showings from a novel which severely underplayed her.

Meetra has processed opponents in less than a second? Reacted faster than peak human opponents?

Maul has seen nigh-imperceptibly fast blows in slow motion, is capable of appearing everywhere at once in under a second to a casual blaster-timer, capable of killing five beings in an eyeflick, moving so fast that a recording needed to be put into slow motion just to see him ect, ect. You're aware of these speed feats, yet you believe what Meetra has to offer can compare?

That, combined with her own power showings, should give her Force Speed levels sufficient to react to Maul. And before you say it, yes, Meetra does practice active augmentations, because she has fought in countless battles against Sith, Dark Jedi, mercenaries, etc.

I'm not interested in her power levels, I'm interested in her speed feats.

You can't just say Maul speedblitzes Nihilus because he's faster.

More undermining.

Since when has Maul ever speedblitzed anybody of Nihilus's speed class? Nihilus >>>>>>> Maul in power, therefore, his Force Speed showings are just higher or at least comparable to Maul's. Your idea of them having to practice active Force speed is unsubstantiated and Nihilus contending with Visas, Meetra and Canderous all at once while weakened is enough of a feat to react to Maul.

Since when has Nihilus ever reacted to someone as fast as Maul? Because reacting to Meetra certainly isn't proof of that.

To answer your question, though - Komari Vosa, who was able to deflect about a dozen blaster bolts from a marksman who has been cited and seen as killing several Jedi with his blasters. I see that as better reaction speed than processing information in a second or reacting faster than peak humans. Processing the erratic placement of those blaster bolts where other Force Users haven't been able to is just better. And Maul blitzed her by appearing to be everywhere at once in her view. Therefore, he can do the same to Meetra, and by extension, Nihilus, who's only speed feat is reacting to Meetra and two other people - all of whom Maul is fast enough to blitz.

Power =/= Speed. Maul is faster than Darth Malgus and Malgus is stronger than Maul. Yet, their power levels are comparable. Point being - everyone augments their physicals in different ways, so simply being powerful isn't a suitable argument for Force speed.

@i_like_swords:

What have their feats got to do with Nihilus? If they can demonstrate impressive levels of Force speed, more power to them.

It was in response to your "practical applications" argument.

No - I'm asking you for Meetra's speed feats. Stop undermining my argument by making out that I'm dealing in ideas as simple as "he's faster, speedblitz"

And I've given them to you.

Meetra has processed opponents in less than a second? Reacted faster than peak human opponents?

Maul has seen nigh-imperceptibly fast blows in slow motion, is capable of appearing everywhere at once in under a second to a casual blaster-timer, capable of killing five beings in an eyeflick, moving so fast that a recording needed to be put into slow motion just to see him ect, ect. You're aware of these speed feats, yet you believe what Meetra has to offer can compare?

You can ignore the context if you will, but it certainly does compare when this happened on a potent dark side nexus hindering her abilities and in a novel which already portrayed Meetra as lesser than what she was. That, and again, she has power showings to validate the claim of her Force Speed being comparable to Maul's.

I'm only interested in her power levels, I'm interested in her speed feats.

That doesn't make sense.

Since when has Nihilus ever reacted to someone as fast as Maul? Because reacting to Meetra certainly isn't proof of that.

Nihilus fighting off Meetra, Visas and Mandalore all at once whilst weakened is a good enough showing to react.

To answer your question, though - Komari Vosa, who was able to deflect about a dozen blaster bolts from a marksman who has been cited and seen as killing several Jedi with his blasters. I see that as better reaction speed than processing information in a second or reacting faster than peak humans. Processing the erratic placement of those blaster bolts where other Force Users haven't been able to is just better. And Maul blitzed her by appearing to be everywhere at once in her view. Therefore, he can do the same to Meetra, and by extension, Nihilus, who's only speed feat is reacting Meetra and two other people - all of whom Maul is fast enough to blitz.

Again, you decided to just ignore that Meetra was on a dark side nexus, and that the novel underplayed Meetra as is.

As for deflecting blaster fire, how is that a better feat than Meetra? Meetra has deflected and dodged blaster fire from multiple sources on a potent dark side nexus hindering her powers. Also, killing Jedi doesn't mean other Jedi couldn't react. They were probably just overwhelmed by a number of bolts or something. Blasters are just the same. I don't care if he killed some featless Jedi with a blaster. Even Canderous managed that, and Nihilus fought him, Meetra and Visas all at once whilst Nihilus was already weakened, and then he was weakened again and still reacted to them.

Power =/= Speed. Maul is faster than Darth Malgus and Malgus is stronger than Maul. Yet, their power levels are comparable. Point being - everyone augments their physicals in different ways, so simply being powerful isn't a suitable argument for Force speed.

Malgus being stronger is questionable, and his entire focus is on strength whereas his armor would seem more of the encumbering type in regards to speed and agility. Maul is just faster based on his own training alone.

Power =/= physical speed. Power does, however, have a relation to Force speed, which is what I'm bringing up. That's precisely why it's called Force Speed.

@shootingnova:

You can ignore the context if you will, but it certainly does compare when this happened on a potent dark side nexus hindering her abilities

Again, you decided to just ignore that Meetra was on a dark side nexus, and that the novel underplayed Meetra as is.

As for deflecting blaster fire, how is that a better feat than Meetra? Meetra has deflected and dodged blaster fire from multiple sources on a potent dark side nexus hindering her powers. Also, killing Jedi doesn't mean other Jedi couldn't react. They were probably just overwhelmed by a number of bolts or something. Blasters are just the same. I don't care if he killed some featless Jedi with a blaster. Even Canderous managed that, and Nihilus fought him, Meetra and Visas all at once whilst Nihilus was already weakened, and then he was weakened again and still reacted to them.

Processing opponents in under a second, and deflecting blaster, while hindered, still doesn't compare. You're failing to grasp just how much better Maul's feats are. If she was at full capacity.. she what? Would process a few more opponents in under a second? Would be able to deflect a few more blaster bolts?

The speed that the nigh-imperceptibly fast droids were throwing strikes would be under half a second, and Maul was seeing them in slow motion while fighting them, casually. So processing speed is certainly not up for grabs.

Meetra has no combative speed to compare to being everywhere at once to a casual-blaster timer.

Meetra deflecting blaster bolts from featless marksmen isn't as good as deflecting blaster bolts from Jango Fett, who is an incredibly capable marksman, capable of giving AotC Kenobi enough pause with his volleys to take a roll out the way, kill numerous Jedi ect. And through his inherited genetics, beings like Connor Freeman and Boba Fett have shot people without even looking casually, disarmed numerous opponents with sequential blaster shots, and more.

So Komari Vosa deflecting blaster bolts from him...

..is a better demonstration of reactive speed than Meetra has shown. You can argue that all blaster bolts travel at the same speed, but then Jango's were juiced up to the point that he needed a stronger metal alloy for his blasters not to overheat, and, due to the fact he's an accomplished marksman, his shots are harder to react to and defend from, than from, say, a droid. You're right that the Jedi Jango killed were overwhelmed by the quantity of his shots - in addition to his accuracy - but Vosa was targeted by dozens and continued to react to them.

So Vosa has better speed feats than Meetra. Maul speedblitzed her, after being shot in the arm by a blaster at point blank.

So take Maul with a healed arm, and give him a slower opponent? Of course he can speedblitz them.

And if Nihilus' only claim to speed is reacting to two low-level superhumans/peak humans, and one Jedi who is slow enough to be speedblitzed by Maul, and then I fail to see how Maul can't clear 10 feet in under a second and lop his head off.

How was Nihilus weakened?

Malgus being stronger is questionable, and his entire focus is on strength whereas his armor would seem more of the encumbering type in regards to speed and agility. Maul is just faster based on his own training alone.

Power =/= physical speed. Power does, however, have a relation to Force speed, which is what I'm bringing up. That's precisely why it's called Force Speed.

Not really. Malgus by comparison of strength feats is stronger than Maul. Strong enough to the point that armor is hardly going to slow him down. And Maul is faster, not based on training, but based on the way he augments his speed.

You're failing to grasp that augmenting Force speed isn't solely based on power. It requires power to do it, but it also requires the user to be able to do so himself. Maul has shown that he's capable of augmenting his speed far better than Nihilus can, therefore he can speedblitz him.

@i_like_swords:

Processing opponents in under a second, and deflecting blaster, while hindered, still doesn't compare. You're failing to grasp just how much better Maul's feats are. If she was at full capacity.. she what? Would process a few more opponents in under a second? Would be able to deflect a few more blaster bolts?

It does, because Drew Karpyshyn writes Meetra in such a poor light that I have a huge list of complaints. I won't complain here, because that would go off-topic, but the point is just that she wasn't portrayed adequately (or anywhere near adequately), and she still displayed that.

The speed that the nigh-imperceptibly fast droids were throwing strikes would be under half a second, and Maul was seeing them in slow motion while fighting them, casually. So processing speed is certainly not up for grabs.

When did I say anything about Meetra's processing speed being around Maul's level or "up for grabs"? I said she can react.

Meetra has no combative speed to compare to being everywhere at once to a casual-blaster timer.

Yes, she does, from the inferred points I brought up which you didn't respond to.

Meetra deflecting blaster bolts from featless marksmen isn't as good as deflecting blaster bolts from Jango Fett, who is an incredibly capable marksman, capable of giving AotC Kenobi enough pause with his volleys to take a roll out the way, kill numerous Jedi ect. And through his inherited genetics, beings like Connor Freeman and Boba Fett have shot people without even looking casually, disarmed numerous opponents with sequential blaster shots, and more.

Obi-Wan has also deflected blaster fire from Jango effortlessly.

So Komari Vosa deflecting blaster bolts from him...

..is a better demonstration of reactive speed than Meetra has shown. You can argue that all blaster bolts travel at the same speed, but then Jango's were juiced up to the point that he needed a stronger metal alloy for his blasters not to overheat, and, due to the fact he's an accomplished marksman, his shots are harder to react to and defend from, than from, say, a droid. You're right that the Jedi Jango killed were overwhelmed by the quantity of his shots - in addition to his accuracy - but Vosa was targeted by dozens and continued to react to them.

No, it's not. How is that "dozens" of blaster bolts? They kept coming at her in pairs.

Not even superior to Drew Karpyshyn's Meetra, who deflected similar quantities of blaster fire on a dark side nexus, let alone K2 Meetra.

So Vosa has better speed feats than Meetra. Maul speedblitzed her, after being shot in the arm by a blaster at point blank.

Vosa does not have better speed feats than Meetra; not even close.

And again, Meetra is quite powerful in her own right. At least some of that translates to speed.

And if Nihilus' only claim to speed is reacting to two low-level superhumans/peak humans, and one Jedi who is slow enough to be speedblitzed by Maul, and then I fail to see how Maul can't clear 10 feet in under a second and lop his head off.

He was winning against them even after being weakened, and he had to be weakened again before losing.

How was Nihilus weakened?

He tried to Drain Meetra, who is a Wound in the Force, so it was repelled and he exhausted himself. He was kneeling on the floor in exhaustion after that, and then he was still fighting Meetra and the others.

Then he got weakened again when Visas attacked him via their Force Bond or whatever she did, which caused him to be kneeling on the floor again.

Not really. Malgus by comparison of strength feats is stronger than Maul. Strong enough to the point that armor is hardly going to slow him down. And Maul is faster, not based on training, but based on the way he augments his speed.

Strength feats don't stop armor from lowering your speed.

You're failing to grasp that augmenting Force speed isn't solely based on power. It requires power to do it, but it also requires the user to be able to do so himself. Maul has shown that he's capable of augmenting his speed far better than Nihilus can, therefore he can speedblitz him.

I never said augmenting Force Speed is solely due to power. I understand that there are obviously physical attributes related, but at least some of the power that is part of a character has to translate to Force speed, which is an undeniable fact based on the fact that it is called Force Speed and that it is a Force power alone. Nihilus is vastly more powerful than Maul, so for him to not be able to even react just doesn't sound right to me.

@shootingnova:

It does, because Drew Karpyshyn writes Meetra in such a poor light that I have a huge list of complaints. I won't complain here, because that would go off-topic, but the point is just that she wasn't portrayed adequately (or anywhere near adequately), and she still displayed that.

So surely she has even better speed feats in other sources?

When did I say anything about Meetra's processing speed being around Maul's level or "up for grabs"? I said she can react.

But she can't.

Yes, she does, from the inferred points I brought up which you didn't respond to.

I'm honestly past caring about inferences for characters. Maul inferrably mastering Ataru, Nihilus inferrably being good at Force augmentation, ect, ect. Unless there are sufficient, tanglible, feats, which can be brought to the table, I'm not interested.

Obi-Wan has also deflected blaster fire from Jango effortlessly.

And how exactly does this counter my point about Jango being a far better marksman than a featless grunt? Obviously Jango wouldn't be able to keep Kenobi in a permanent state of desperation, and obviously Kenobi wouldn't be able to effortlessly deflect bolts from him all the time. But the fact that they are capable causing each other difficulty is impressive for both parties.

No, it's not. How is that "dozens" of blaster bolts? They kept coming at her in pairs.

Not even superior to Drew Karpyshyn's Meetra, who deflected similar quantities of blaster fire on a dark side nexus, let alone K2 Meetra.

Collectively it was dozens of blaster bolts, which were coming at her in pairs. It's physically and mentally taxing to deflect pairs of blaster bolts from a master marksman for that long, yet she kept it up. This is better than Meetra deflecting an inferior number from an inferior marksman.

Vosa does not have better speed feats than Meetra; not even close.

And again, Meetra is quite powerful in her own right. At least some of that translates to speed.

Proof?

No it doesn't. Speed feats translate to speed.

He was winning against them even after being weakened, and he had to be weakened again before losing.

He tried to Drain Meetra, who is a Wound in the Force, so it was repelled and he exhausted himself. He was kneeling on the floor in exhaustion after that, and then he was still fighting Meetra and the others.

Then he got weakened again when Visas attacked him via their Force Bond or whatever she did, which caused him to be kneeling on the floor again.

Nihilus was fighting a party of three beings while kneeling on the floor? Impressive.

I never said augmenting Force Speed is solely due to power. I understand that there are obviously physical attributes related, but at least some of the power that is part of a character has to translate to Force speed, which is an undeniable fact based on the fact that it is called Force Speed and that it is a Force power alone. Nihilus is vastly more powerful than Maul, so for him to not be able to even react just doesn't sound right to me.

Not just physical attributes, but also the individual ability to augment Force speed. Maul is better at doing so than Nihilus.

Yes, it is a Force power. Meaning it requires active application of technique - something that you can be good or bad at. Maul is good at it, Nihilus isn't good enough with it to react to Maul.

It not sounding right doesn't matter, that's how it is.

@i_like_swords:

So surely she has even better speed feats in other sources?

No, she's just more powerful and a better fighter and a better everything in K2, so I would presume speed works as well.

I'm honestly past caring about inferences for characters. Maul inferrably mastering Ataru, Nihilus inferrably being good at Force augmentation, ect, ect. Unless there are sufficient, tanglible, feats, which can be brought to the table, I'm not interested.

You don't need to be "good" at Force augmentation. It just works. There's no "being good" at it. Vitiate hardly ever fights, and in his first fight ever he was wrecking Revan.

Also, ignoring inferences even if they are reasonable is basically you saying that Plagueis would get stomped by Maul in a skill-only contest. Or that Tenebrous loses to TPM Kenobi in a rout in a skill-contest.

And how exactly does this counter my point about Jango being a far better marksman than a featless grunt? Obviously Jango wouldn't be able to keep Kenobi in a permanent state of desperation, and obviously Kenobi wouldn't be able to effortlessly deflect bolts from him all the time. But the fact that they are capable causing each other difficulty is impressive for both parties.

No, it doesn't, because I wasn't responding to that.

Obi-Wan was never in a state of desperation against Jango's blasters.

Collectively it was dozens of blaster bolts, which were coming at her in pairs. It's physically and mentally taxing to deflect pairs of blaster bolts from a master marksman for that long, yet she kept it up. This is better than Meetra deflecting an inferior number from an inferior marksman.

Not really. He fired about four, she deflected two, and then another two, and then he fired another four, and then she deflected another two, and then another two, etc.

Proof?

Proof of what?

No it doesn't. Speed feats translate to speed.

In case you don't know, there is something called Force speed. Physical speed is not the only speed there is.

Nihilus was fighting a party of three beings while kneeling on the floor? Impressive.

lol

Nihilus got back up because Jedi don't execute helpless opponents. He was still weakened anyway.

Not just physical attributes, but also the individual ability to augment Force speed. Maul is better at doing so than Nihilus.

You mean augmenting physical speed. Augmenting Force speed is only done by having power.

Yes, it is a Force power. Meaning it requires active application of technique - something that you can be good or bad at. Maul is good at it, Nihilus isn't good enough with it to react to Maul.

No, it isn't. Proof that you can be "bad" at Force Speed? Again, Vitiate was using Force Speed well on his first try. That, and Force Speed is also passive, and is also determined by power. There's two fronts to it.

You can't claim Vitiate is worse than Maul at Force Speed or whatever, or would get speedblitzed. We know he has speed showings sufficient to react to Maul, but he is similar to Nihilus as a character. All your claims of not being practical with Force Speed or what not apply here as well.

I don't see why it's too different for Nihilus.

It not sounding right doesn't matter, that's how it is.

Actually, it does matter, because we're having this debate right now.

But if you want to stop, then so be it. I'm open to the possibility of Maul speedblitzing, as per my original post, but I'm equally open to Nihilus being able to react. You don't seem to be so open, so we can just agree to disagree if you want.

And even if we have it your way, Maul didn't actually speedblitz Komari and that she managed to at least block some of his strikes and have thoughts about the fight's outcome (she conceded), and it actually isn't from Vosa's perspective but rather the author's (or else we'd be having Dooku's lightsaber appear to be everywhere at once to Obi-Wan), and the text uses "his" for Maul, so it would be from a third-person-limited perspective, or maybe a third-person-detatched perspective.

Also, to bring up points, Nihilus's presence apparently weakens/kills those around him, which seem to be the case with his crew (whom are all deformed and more or less dead). I doubt it would matter here, though.

@shootingnova:

No, she's just more powerful and a better fighter and a better everything in K2, so I would presume speed works as well.

More assumptions, no feats.

You don't need to be "good" at Force augmentation. It just works. There's no "being good" at it. Vitiate hardly ever fights, and in his first fight ever he was wrecking Revan.

Also, ignoring inferences even if they are reasonable is basically you saying that Plagueis would get stomped by Maul in a skill-only contest.

Again, what Vitiate does is of no relevance to what Nihilus does.

Nope, not true.

Fact: Sidious is a tier 9-10 duelist, who received his training from Plagueis.

Fact: Plagueis and Venamis both received their training from Tenebrous, putting them at roughly equal skill levels.

Fact: Despite being a master of Plagueis' form, while Plagueis had no knowledge of his form, Venamis still lost to Plagueis.

This more than justifies Plagueis being in Maul's tier.

No, it doesn't, because I wasn't responding to that.

Obi-Wan was never in a state of desperation against Jango's blasters.

Not quite desperation, but he did have to roll out of the way because of the pressure Jango was putting on him.

Not really. He fired about four, she deflected two, and then another two, and then he fired another four, and then she deflected another two, and then another two, etc.

And the ones she didn't deflect were being dodged for the most part. What's your point here? It's still better than anything Meetra has done.

Proof of what?

This:

Vosa does not have better speed feats than Meetra; not even close.

-

In case you don't know, there is something called Force speed. Physical speed is not the only speed there is.

When did I say physical speed is the only speed there is? I know what Force speed is. What I'm saying is, however powerful Meetra is is irrelevant to how fast she is.

lol

Nihilus got back up because Jedi don't execute helpless opponents. He was still weakened anyway.

There was no indication I could find in the video that he was weakened. He fell to his knees, then he got back up.

You mean augmenting physical speed. Augmenting Force speed is only done by having power.

Look, call it whatever pleases you. The simple fact is, Maul can make himself fast enough that he can blitz Nihilus beyond his ability to react. Nihilus hasn't shown any reactive feats to suggest he can react to Maul - all he's done is lose to three beings in an unconfirmed manner, who Maul could speedblitz anyway.

No, it isn't. Proof that you can be "bad" at Force Speed? Again, Vitiate was using Force Speed well on his first try. That, and Force Speed is also passive, and is also determined by power. There's two fronts to it.

You have passive Force speed - then you have the ability to augment your speed, through the Force. Which is what Maul did here:

By turning to such diversionary tactics, Vosa had all but admitted that she was no match for the erratic staccato blows that he was delivering, seemingly from everywhere, all at once.

Kill her. Kill her now. Then you may deliver the weapon to any of the Bando Gora who remain.

Pivoting easily, he swung out at her, the dark side streaming so powerfully from him now that it seemed to be pouring forth in great fan-shaped swaths in the air around him. All around them, the whole world seemed to be blowing itself to pieces.

Maul: Lockdown

Maul appeared to be everywhere at once to Vosa, almost too fast for her to see. With a blaster injury. Because he augmented his speed. He used a Force power, actively. A technique.

So, what I want to see is Nihilus actively increasing his Force speed to such levels that he can react to Maul. Otherwise, you're arguing that Nihilus can actively perform a technique due to power, not skill with the technique itself.

Nihilus