Team 2 for a majority. Malgus and vader are near equals. With kun being superior to maul IMO. Maybe 7/10 team 2. I dont think this is a stomp either way.
Sabers only goes to team 2 for definite. Vader, Maul and Kun are all roughly as skilled as each other with Vader possibly taking a slight lead, whereas Malgus is a tier below them all.
Leaning towards team 2 for an all out as well. Vader and Kun are more powerful than Malgus by my estimation, as well as Maul obviously. Vader scarcely uses his TK in fights though, and likewise Kun has a strong inclination to duel his opponents instead of attacking them with the Force. Malgus does a mix of both, and Maul will start off dueling and then use the Force at opportune moments, or when he feels he needs to. Having said all of that, Kun has at least shown that when attacked by another's Force attacks (Aleema's) he is more than happy to respond in kind with his own. Given his ability to shrug off Aleema's force blasts, which have reduced men to skeletons, and resist an attempt at Sever Force from Odan-Urr, I have no doubt in my mind that he could hold off Malgus' lightning or TK, as well as Maul's. On the flipside, Kun's gauntlets are extremely powerful and double in damage with each use, and while Malgus has some skill in deflection, he's never deflected anything near as potent (and Maul has no defensive Force powers, really, although he's agile and tough enough to soak some damage here and there). Not to mention Kun has access to powers like Wound, Whirlwind, Lightning, Stun, Sorcery ect, so I'm inclined to believe that he can bring out a very powerful Force offence when it suits him. Vader would find Malgus' lightning problematic but other than that he's more powerful than either him or Maul, on top of being a slightly better duelist than Maul and a tier ahead of Malgus, so he can win whatever fight he's placed in.
It's a very close fight, but Kun has an answer for whatever is thrown at him, and Vader is a powerhouse. Maul simply can't cope with the level of Force power being utilised by the opposing team, and while he can certainly hold his own in dueling scenarios and certainly take his fair share of rounds, all it takes is Exar to let loose for his team to win. Likewise Malgus can hold his own, and is extremely skilled at combining lightning and telekinesis with lightsaber combat, but Kun and Vader have enough defence to offset his power whilst either can win the dueling side of things, or gradually best him in a contest of power. Malgus can take an unprecedented amount of damage though, so he isn't going down easily by any means.
@i_like_swords: Wow, now that helps me a whole lot, I was not aware of Malgus at all other than small appearance I read a long time ago and of course here on the Vine. I had an idea about Kun but thought Id try to match them up with some Sith Im aware of in the EU. Anyway thanks alot man.
I know you kind of went into detail about Malgus damage soak, but do you see it playing quite a factor in the battle? Does he have a respect thread? Or if you could just give me an example of how good his damage soak is only because I have no idea. Or I guess even easier point me to some appearances. Lol
I appreciate you taking the time to give an elaborate response, rock on man \m/
As for his damage soak, he's tanked a cannon blowing up in his face, a concussion grenade blowing up in his face, and being buried under a cliff of rubble, as a rough guide.
@darthmanhunter: Hes a monster when it comes to damage soak. Ven zallow smashed him in the face with his lightsaber hilt that knocked out teeth/broke his jaw, I cant recall which. And he shrugged it off like nothing, he also took a nade to the face and proceed to get buried by tons of rubble, two times in a row. And he also shrugged that off. Hes got some of the highest pain tolerance.
It's a very close fight, but Kun has an answer for whatever is thrown at him, and Vader is a powerhouse. Maul simply can't cope with the level of Force power being utilised by the opposing team, and while he can certainly hold his own in dueling scenarios and certainly take his fair share of rounds, all it takes is Exar to let loose for his team to win. Likewise Malgus can hold his own, and is extremely skilled at combining lightning and telekinesis with lightsaber combat, but Kun and Vader have enough defence to offset his power whilst either can win the dueling side of things, or gradually best him in a contest of power. Malgus can take an unprecedented amount of damage though, so he isn't going down easily by any means.
Would you mind explaining exactly how Maul is unable to cope with Force powers being utilized on the second team? I'm assuming that's with consideration of his form's weakness to Force powers. Otherwise, he is durable enough to withstand a few Force/telekinetic blasts, Alter Environment, etc. The only thing he has no chance of resisting is Drain, and its use here is questionable.
It's a very close fight, but Kun has an answer for whatever is thrown at him, and Vader is a powerhouse. Maul simply can't cope with the level of Force power being utilised by the opposing team, and while he can certainly hold his own in dueling scenarios and certainly take his fair share of rounds, all it takes is Exar to let loose for his team to win. Likewise Malgus can hold his own, and is extremely skilled at combining lightning and telekinesis with lightsaber combat, but Kun and Vader have enough defence to offset his power whilst either can win the dueling side of things, or gradually best him in a contest of power. Malgus can take an unprecedented amount of damage though, so he isn't going down easily by any means.
Would you mind explaining exactly how Maul is unable to cope with Force powers being utilized on the second team? I'm assuming that's with consideration of his form's weakness to Force powers. Otherwise, he is durable enough to withstand a few Force/telekinetic blasts, Alter Environment, etc. The only thing he has no chance of resisting is Drain, and its use here is questionable.
His only defence to Kun's Force Blasts is his agility, and Kun has access to a variety of other offensive Force powers like lightning, whirlwind ect that could be useful if their power correlates to Kun's power in other areas. Maul can deal with Vader's tk though.
Sabers only goes to team 2 for definite. Vader, Maul and Kun are all roughly as skilled as each other with Vader possibly taking a slight lead, whereas Malgus is a tier below them all.
Leaning towards team 2 for an all out as well. Vader and Kun are more powerful than Malgus by my estimation, as well as Maul obviously. Vader scarcely uses his TK in fights though, and likewise Kun has a strong inclination to duel his opponents instead of attacking them with the Force. Malgus does a mix of both, and Maul will start off dueling and then use the Force at opportune moments, or when he feels he needs to. Having said all of that, Kun has at least shown that when attacked by another's Force attacks (Aleema's) he is more than happy to respond in kind with his own. Given his ability to shrug off Aleema's force blasts, which have reduced men to skeletons, and resist an attempt at Sever Force from Odan-Urr, I have no doubt in my mind that he could hold off Malgus' lightning or TK, as well as Maul's. On the flipside, Kun's gauntlets are extremely powerful and double in damage with each use, and while Malgus has some skill in deflection, he's never deflected anything near as potent (and Maul has no defensive Force powers, really, although he's agile and tough enough to soak some damage here and there). Not to mention Kun has access to powers like Wound, Whirlwind, Lightning, Stun, Sorcery ect, so I'm inclined to believe that he can bring out a very powerful Force offence when it suits him. Vader would find Malgus' lightning problematic but other than that he's more powerful than either him or Maul, on top of being a slightly better duelist than Maul and a tier ahead of Malgus, so he can win whatever fight he's placed in.
It's a very close fight, but Kun has an answer for whatever is thrown at him, and Vader is a powerhouse. Maul simply can't cope with the level of Force power being utilised by the opposing team, and while he can certainly hold his own in dueling scenarios and certainly take his fair share of rounds, all it takes is Exar to let loose for his team to win. Likewise Malgus can hold his own, and is extremely skilled at combining lightning and telekinesis with lightsaber combat, but Kun and Vader have enough defence to offset his power whilst either can win the dueling side of things, or gradually best him in a contest of power. Malgus can take an unprecedented amount of damage though, so he isn't going down easily by any means.
Team 2 barely with just Sabers. Team 2 easy all out.
It wouldn't be easy, at all.
Exar and Vaders force feats greatly outshine the latters teams. Vader is hurling easy 100 tons Space ports around, and force crushing Tie Fighters. Kun has space ship blasting Sith Gauntlets and great TK abilities. Team two force use is nothing to that from what I seen.
@sirfizzwhizz: For one, you're ignoring that Vader and Kun primarily duel their opponents, so on that basis alone it would be a hard fight because Maul and Malgus can definitely contend blade-wise. Secondly, I do believe Vader can shove his weight around with TK but he hasn't done enough to just completely dominate someone like Maul, and Maul is durable enough to survive blunt impacts very well. Malgus is easily comparable to Vader in terms of power. He had two buildings dropped on him, survived, and then blasted the rubble off of himself and ragdolled the Jedi who dropped them on him. When he was in space he got angry and let out a Force scream, which subsequently cracked transparisteel as well as destroyed the fuel cells of several enemy starfighters, blowing them up. His lightning has killed three Jedi in a single blast. And all of this happened before the end of Deceived, where he received a power increase and then years later would become the False Emperor, who was taking on whole SWTOR strike teams and directly attacking them with telekinesis.
Where did you get that Kun's gauntlets could destroy ships, by the way?
@sirfizzwhizz: For one, you're ignoring that Vader and Kun primarily duel their opponents, so on that basis alone it would be a hard fight because Maul and Malgus can definitely contend blade-wise. Secondly, I do believe Vader can shove his weight around with TK but he hasn't done enough to just completely dominate someone like Maul, and Maul is durable enough to survive blunt impacts very well. Malgus is easily comparable to Vader in terms of power. He had two buildings dropped on him, survived, and then blasted the rubble off of himself and ragdolled the Jedi who dropped them on him. When he was in space he got angry and let out a Force scream, which subsequently cracked transparisteel as well as destroyed the fuel cells of several enemy starfighters, blowing them up. His lightning has killed three Jedi in a single blast. And all of this happened before the end of Deceived, where he received a power increase and then years later would become the False Emperor, who was taking on whole SWTOR strike teams and directly attacking them with telekinesis.
Where did you get that Kun's gauntlets could destroy ships, by the way?
Good points, but even if they dueled again, when the Force powers come out, team 1 is outclass as Maul is not really that powerful of a Force User.
Considering the size of the explosion here, I say that is a easy tie Fighter buster, or even possible X-Wing busting blast.
@sirfizzwhizz: Kun was heavily amped due to being on Yavin IV, a planet strong in the dark side, as well as Naga Sadow's temple, a focal point of dark side power. He wouldn't be replicating that off-nexus.
Team 2 wins round 1. Exar Kun and Darth Maul are similar in skill with Kun having the edge in strength while Maul has the advantage in speed. A duel between those two is close. Vader should be slightly above Darth Maul in basically every area and already proved he can outduel Maul even before his prime. Malgus however, is completely outclassed by Exar Kun and Darth Vader in skill and speed and becomes his teams weak link.
Round 2 it's closer because of Malgus' raw power being comparable to Exar and Vader, but in the end of the day team 2 should still win. Both Kun and Vader have the means to take slight majorities against Malgus and Kun. Malgus might be a bit more powerful than Kun but still out of his league skill wise while Vader should be slightly above Malgus power wise. Maul unfortunately is out of his league in raw force power.
Vader should be slightly above Darth Maul in basically every area and already proved he can outduel Maul even before his prime.
Nope. Vader lost that duel. Handily might I add. He cheapshotted Maul at the end by stabbing himself and Maul through his own cybernetics, which is tantamount to suicide for non-cyborgs. He also isn't more agile than Maul, better tactically, faster, a better unarmed fighter ect. He might have a slight skill gap which is unsupported by actual feats, he's slightly stronger and very durable. He has a big force advantage, but he never uses it.
@sirfizzwhizz: Kun was heavily amped due to being on Yavin IV, a planet strong in the dark side, as well as Naga Sadow's temple, a focal point of dark side power. He wouldn't be replicating that off-nexus.
I suppose that sounds logical, was their any source though that states this as fact? Though by lore logic that makes sense.
However there is only one use of the gauntlets I remember outside the temple. He refrain from killing whats her name, so we have no contradicting source of the strength of the Gaunlets at full power outside the temple to say otherwise.
@sirfizzwhizz: It's a fact that dark side nexuses amp dark siders when they are near them. It's stated earlier on in TotJ in another focal point of power that the power wanted to "help" Kun, and that he was amazed by the ease of which he drew on the power, which points to a nexus amp once again.
Here are descriptions of the temple leading up to the gauntlet ritual:
Gallery
"Tremendous energies are concentrated in these half-ruined temples."
"As massassi priest Zythmnr holds up an ancient Sith amulet, the energies increase"
"Their chants are heard! Torrential power is released!"
@sirfizzwhizz: It's a fact that dark side nexuses amp dark siders when they are near them. It's stated earlier on in TotJ in another focal point of power that the power wanted to "help" Kun, and that he was amazed by the ease of which he drew on the power, which points to a nexus amp once again.
Here are descriptions of the temple leading up to the gauntlet ritual:
Gallery
"Tremendous energies are concentrated in these half-ruined temples."
"As massassi priest Zythmnr holds up an ancient Sith amulet, the energies increase"
"Their chants are heard! Torrential power is released!"
I get that, but still is the Gauntlets only have showings in the temple.
This is the only showing I am aware of outside the Temple. As seen they are only powerful enough to knock a chick on her butt?! Thats it? Why are they coveted Sith artifacts? They are weaker than a Force Push.
So what are the upper limits outside the temple? If the above scans is it, then I flat out disagree. The Gauntlets should still be as powerful as they were shown IMO due to many Dark Side artifacts, ect, have stores of Dark Side energies outside Dark Side areas.
@i_like_swords: Thats not all that powerful though. Many throw away Dark Jedi of the Jedi Civil War and Old Republic Games can do the same wit Force Lightning. Non of them come close to more powerful beings raw TK or Force Lightning attacks.
It makes the Gauntlets look incredibly weak. I seriously doubt they are that worthless overall to Kun's raw TK that one shots powerful Jedi Master.
Gallery
Doubt the Gauntlets are weaker than his raw strength that breaks through Mandolarian Iron.
Gallery
Or Force Scream felt light years.
Or even his uber powerful Sith Lightning.
Yet the best the Gauntlets can do to a average in power Dark Sider is knock them on their but?
I have to call BS on that. The Gauntlets would then have no purpose unless they are as powerful as the Temple showing.
@sirfizzwhizz: Another thing to consider is that the gauntlets channel and amplify Exar's own power, which we know is already higher than someone who can disintegrate beings down to a skeleton. When looking at the scope of Exar's power, which includes sorcery casually stunning 10,000 beings in the senate, being far more powerful than any Jedi of his day, killing a powerful Force sensitive (Odan-Urr) with telekinesis after resisting his attempt at Sever Force, I'm inclined to believe that his power being amplified into powerful blasts which double in power with each blast makes him pretty powerful.
@i_like_swords: those are good points. That wound make them useful device to amp his abilities rather than offensive power, however what do you mean by the last two sentences? I got lost as to what your trying to say there.
@sirfizzwhizz: I'm basically saying that even though we haven't seen his blasts full power, we have seen his power in other areas like sorcery and telekinesis. So if we apply that kind of power to his blasts, they should be highly destructive.
@i_like_swords: In the audiobook he says he can double the strength of his blasts before he blew Nadd up. Annihilating a Sith spirit ( I don't recall if he was in the temple) is still an impressive feat, especially Nadd who is one of the most powerful ones.
@burnface: That's true. I think it's safe to say if you don't have good defensive powers you are basically screwed in a contest of Force power with Kun's gauntlets.
Kun is really hard to put in a dueling bracket. If it's Maul vs Exar and Malgus vs Vader I could see team 2 losing the duel. Team 2 wins the all out though.
Vader should be slightly above Darth Maul in basically every area and already proved he can outduel Maul even before his prime.
Nope. Vader lost that duel. Handily might I add. He cheapshotted Maul at the end by stabbing himself and Maul through his own cybernetics, which is tantamount to suicide for non-cyborgs. He also isn't more agile than Maul, better tactically, faster, a better unarmed fighter ect. He might have a slight skill gap which is unsupported by actual feats, he's slightly stronger and very durable. He has a big force advantage, but he never uses it.
Not really…looking over the fight again they were stark even till Maul managed to cut him along the face. The fact that Vader needed a cheap shot to win shouldn’t matter because there’s no reason he wouldn’t use one again if given the chance. Agility is fair enough and speed should be even but Vader’s significantly stronger and would beat him unarmed as well. Yes he’s a better duelist. He’ll use the force eventually. Vader beats Maul.
@i_like_swords: @burnface: so does that mean his Gauntlets are at the power in the smoke then? What limit is roughly the gloves are with the adiou Novel then.
@highaccuser: They weren't even at all. Maul landed several blows on him and even cut his armor open, which would have resulted in spilled intestines for anyone without cybernetics, and despite this opted to taunt Vader and go on the backfoot instead of finishing him. He wasn't worried or serious at any point in the fight until Vader cut his saberstaff after about 15 pages of being played with. At which point, Maul ended the fight in a page. Vader wouldn't be given a cheapshot in a battles forum setting because we take characters at their best, Maul wouldn't be pissing around like he was there.
Vader isn't significantly stronger, and he wouldn't beat Maul in an unarmed fight either.
Care to explain your reasoning for Vader being the better duelist? Just curious is all.
Uhm, I didn't deny Vader may use the Force eventually. All I've said is he only does so scarcely, which is absolutely true.
Vader does take a majority over Maul, correct. Your point?
@sirfizzwhizz: I didn't see your earlier edit in your post:
Doubt the Gauntlets are weaker than his raw strength that breaks through Mandolarian Iron.
Or Force Scream felt light years.
Or even his uber powerful Sith Lightning.
Yet the best the Gauntlets can do to a average in power Dark Sider is knock them on their but?
I have to call BS on that. The Gauntlets would then have no purpose unless they are as powerful as the Temple showing.
You can't compare a Force blast to Force augmentation, it just doesn't make sense to do that.
The Force scream denotes a high level of power but given the ambiguity surrounding Force screaming across light years, but not destroying anything, and the fact Force screams are involuntary, it hardly matters overall.
That was an image from Gnost-Dural's timeline - it's not what actually happened. We have never seen Kun use lightning.
Aleema isn't average in power, by the way. Her illusions are extremely potent. Her Force blasts have a lack of feats though.
His only defence to Kun's Force Blasts is his agility, and Kun has access to a variety of other offensive Force powers like lightning, whirlwind ect that could be useful if their power correlates to Kun's power in other areas. Maul can deal with Vader's tk though.
A number of Kun's powers are sourcebook entries and have never even surfaced in the comics, let alone in combative situations. The chances of them actually appearing, let alone being an issue, are fairly slim. I'm not saying they won't be an issue, but it's just less likely because we've seen Kun fight and he doesn't exactly employ those powers in a fight.
That being said, how does Lightning prove to be an extensive issue for Maul, but not Vader's TK.?
@i_like_swords: while the rest is true, the strength feat is insane force game red or not, and low end comparable alone to the Force Blasts. The picture of Kun with force lightning is the only image we have, and it's impressive as all get out to use.
But we came to a conclusion already that the Gauntlets are potent and augment his force ability anyway, making it likely he can come close if not use the those force blasts like he did at the temple.
His only defence to Kun's Force Blasts is his agility, and Kun has access to a variety of other offensive Force powers like lightning, whirlwind ect that could be useful if their power correlates to Kun's power in other areas. Maul can deal with Vader's tk though.
A number of Kun's powers are sourcebook entries and have never even surfaced in the comics, let alone in combative situations. The chances of them actually appearing, let alone being an issue, are fairly slim. I'm not saying they won't be an issue, but it's just less likely because we've seen Kun fight and he doesn't exactly employ those powers in a fight.
That being said, how does Lightning prove to be an extensive issue for Maul, but not Vader's TK.?
My point is more that he has access to a high number of offensive Force powers, so it's more than likely that he can produce something if so inclined. From what we have seen of him, he's killed Odan-Urr with telekinesis and casually rendered Aleema unconscious, so I believe he has enough in his arsenal to hurt Maul with the right mindset. His blasts being his best bet.
I didn't ever say lightning would be an extensive issue for Maul, just that it could be useful, which it would, because it would more than likely hurt Maul if it landed and could potentially damage his prosthetic legs. I suppose you could argue that Vader is just as dangerous as Kun, but I don't see him as quite as much of a threat to Maul specifically. Vader is all about blunt telekinetic damage, which is something Maul can partially circumvent. Kun using blasts of energy just does a more effective type of damage to the body and his cybernetics.
Team 1 definitely to me. Malgus and Maul fight never surrendering, they fight like animals. Simple primitive fighting full offense to the end stomps casual mixed methods.
@caseiden: Malgus and Maul have both used deceptive tactics mid-duel in order to gain an edge over opponents, so on that basis alone they aren't primitive, purely offensive fighters. Also, Maul is a master of Niman and saberstaff combat as well... the same as Exar Kun. And Exar Kun is actually one of the most aggressive fighters you'll find, and hasn't shown tactical capabilities beyond the likes of Maul.. so..
@i_like_swords: Hmm problem, but I really imagine in book or comic it would be more awesome to have Vader or Kun brutally murdered like some dogs.
But... Damn, you're too much right, and I read respect threads now and no STRength advantage to Malgus and Maul. So no Malgus puting Kun on the curb for stomp (like Soprano series, btw it's really cool). I need to revaluate :P
@i_like_swords: You mentioned it as being more important than Vader's TK, which I disagree with. I understand the general point you're making, but I have doubts about the practicality of Kun's powers mid-fight, since they have never surfaced.
And Vader is hardly just TK. He has just as many powers at his disposal as Kun (including sourcebook entries), and unlike Kun, he has actually shown some of them in combat, like Alter Environment.
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