Darth Caedus Vs. Mace Windu, Kit Fisto, Saesee Tiin, Agen Kolar

Mace Windu and company run into a different Sith Lord when they go to arrest Palpatine. Will they fare any better against Caedus than they did Palpatine? Caedus does not have his ridiculous "teleport items" ability.

Round 1: Mace Windu as he normally is

Round 2: Mace Windu with the amp he got for his fight against Sidious.

Who wins?

Versus

Round 1: Caedus, i think.

Round 2: Jedi. Mace's amp was powerful.

@JamesKM716: Yeah, I'm not too sure about Round 1 either. Personally I'd give it to the Jedi, at least in a lightsaber duel just because Caedus has four very good duelists to contend with. Force fight I think Caedus should win handily.

@shroudofsorrow: Thing is, Caedus stomped, Kyle Katarn, Thane Mithric, Valin Horn and Kolir Huy'la, while wounded.

He's dealt with highly skilled Jedi attacking in groups, and utterly won.

Sure that Mace's team is signifacently better, but still. Caedus at full strength fought Luke Skywalker and lived. That's a feat in itself.

I just don't see Mace's team managing to defeat Caedus.

(@JediXMan Your opinion?)

@JamesKM716: This is true, but you yourself admitted that Mace's group>>>>Kyle's group. Also, were there not specific circumstances for why Caedus was able to do so well against Luke when Luke as of LotF is supposed to be vastly superior to pretty much everybody?

The Fate of the Jedi books implied many times that Caedus was 2nd to Luke at that time....and by that era Luke was 10x Vader in his prime before he died. So... Caedus > Mace by a significant margin.

@P0rtal: I need feats. Palpatine is second to Luke. Not Caedus. I am under the impression that there were unique circumstances that allowed Caedus to do well against Luke. Is this true or not?

Luke let him go, he could not come to harm Jacen. He did well because Luke allowed it. You have to look at it like this: All of the major characters pre-Legacy era such as Mace, Yoda, Palp, Vader are all inferior in strength to Luke in post Legacy era. If Vader and Palpatine lived into the Legacy and Fate of the Jedi Era when Luke was roughly 60 and Han was 70 years old, then they would be significantly more powerful than Luke.

Since they are all dead, Luke surpassed them all in power. Vader and Palpatine on their last day alive were very inferior to Luke in this Era. Jacen in this era was implied to be 2nd in power to Luke. This is a crazy feat, but the gap between them is huge. Luke burst into Jacens Command deck and literally pinned him and the chair to the ground, flattening it all a little. He threatened him to never harm anyone further or he would have to step in and kill him.

As for feats, its not so much based on his physical feats, but his mental prowess. He discovered powerful sith artifacts that boosted his powers, learned techniques that were long forgotten and displayed abilities of foresight that rivaled Palpatine. His Force awareness was immense, his force Meditation and ability to boost his physical limits are also extremely potent. There is no question that if Caedus went back in time to fight Mace, he would best him very easily. Everyone in the Legacy+ era is immensely overpowered. Vast Technical knowledge of the Force, Ancient sith artifacts and techniques boosting his power and training by Luke made him one of the strongest Force users of all time.

@P0rtal said:

Since they are all dead, Luke surpassed them all in power. Vader and Palpatine on their last day alive were very inferior to Luke in this Era. Jacen in this era was implied to be 2nd in power to Luke. This is a crazy feat, but the gap between them is huge. Luke burst into Jacens Command deck and literally pinned him and the chair to the ground, flattening it all a little. He threatened him to never harm anyone further or he would have to step in and kill him.

As for feats, its not so much based on his physical feats, but his mental prowess. He discovered powerful sith artifacts that boosted his powers, learned techniques that were long forgotten and displayed abilities of foresight that rivaled Palpatine. His Force awareness was immense, his force Meditation and ability to boost his physical limits are also extremely potent. There is no question that if Caedus went back in time to fight Mace, he would best him very easily. Everyone in the Legacy+ era is immensely overpowered. Vast Technical knowledge of the Force, Ancient sith artifacts and techniques boosting his power and training by Luke made him one of the strongest Force users of all time.

Absolutely incorrect.

Luke did not surpass them because of them failing to survive longer, Luke surpassed them because of his potential being greater:

And the Emperor was right. Luke had much power in him. It was raw, unchanneled and untrained, but it was vast. His potential was larger than the Emperor's, larger than Vader's.

--Taken from Shadows of the Empire

Besides, Caedus does not rival Palpatine (minus the feat of Oneness, but that's temporary). Sourcebooks and other sources have time and again said Palpatine is the most powerful Sith Lord of all time:

Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known.

--Taken from Vader: The Ultimate Guide

Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history.

--Taken from The New Essential Chronology

Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chamber, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two engaged in a spectacular duel—a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force’s light and dark sides.

--Taken from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

It quickly became clear to Luke that this decrepit and seemingly defenseless old man was masterfully adept in the ways of the Dark Side of the Force. Indeed, as Vader had warned, the Emperor had become the Dark Side's most powerful expression.

--Taken from the Dark Empire endnotes

Palpatine has spent decades studying the most arcane and esoteric Jedi disciplines. It is believed that he has mastered nearly all the known powers, previously unknown powers, and devises new ones at his pleasure.

--Taken from Dark Empire Sourcebook

And much more.

@ShootingNova said:

Absolutely incorrect.

Luke did not surpass them because of them failing to survive longer, Luke surpassed them because of his potential being greater:

Nah, you are just grasping at straws to make it sound like I am not right. There are many reasons. Lukes Potential was not in question in this thread, he is number 1 in this era, there is no debating he is the strongest Jedi. And you are absolutely incorrect in saying that Luke surpassing them all in power due to them all BEING DEAD 40 years before this era is just silly nonsense. They are dead. Luke survived. 40+ years after he beat Vader 1v1 he is 40 years more potent in the Force. Fact. Indisputable.

@ShootingNova said:

Besides, Caedus does not rival Palpatine (minus the feat of Oneness, but that's temporary). Sourcebooks and other sources have time and again said Palpatine is the most powerful Sith Lord of all time:

Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known.

The gap between Luke and Caedus is massive. I don't care what any "official guide" states if it is that conflicting with the actual movie itself. Vader got bested by Luke 4 decades before Caedus was proclaimed 2nd most powerful under Luke. Caedus can take Mace. Prove me wrong.

@P0rtal: I do not know why I even bother to debate with somebody who cannot even see his own argument.

Nah, you are just grasping at straws to make it sound like I am not right. There are many reasons. Lukes Potential was not in question in this thread, he is number 1 in this era, there is no debating he is the strongest Jedi. And you are absolutely incorrect in saying that Luke surpassing them all in power due to them all BEING DEAD 40 years before this era is just silly nonsense. They are dead. Luke survived. 40+ years after he beat Vader 1v1 he is 40 years more potent in the Force. Fact. Indisputable.

Nobody here is grasping at straws, but you. Can you start reading my posts, please?

Your reasoning for Luke being stronger than them is this:

Since they are all dead, Luke surpassed them all in power.

And that is not the case. As stated above, this is the reason why Luke is superior:

And the Emperor was right. Luke had much power in him. It was raw, unchanneled and untrained, but it was vast. His potential was larger than the Emperor's, larger than Vader's.

--Taken from Shadows of the Empire

And he actually achieved his potential.

Abeloth > Legacy/Fate of the Jedi Era Luke/Darth Kryat > Palpatine > Yoda > ( Large Gap ) Caedus > Vader > Mace > Other Jedi Masters.

Seriously? Krayt above Palpatine?

As put above, Palpatine is the most powerful Sith Lord of all time:

Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known.

--Taken from Vader: The Ultimate Guide

Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history.

--Taken from The New Essential Chronology

Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chamber, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two engaged in a spectacular duel—a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force’s light and dark sides.

--Taken from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

It quickly became clear to Luke that this decrepit and seemingly defenseless old man was masterfully adept in the ways of the Dark Side of the Force. Indeed, as Vader had warned, the Emperor had become the Dark Side's most powerful expression.

--Taken from the Dark Empire endnotes

Palpatine has spent decades studying the most arcane and esoteric Jedi disciplines. It is believed that he has mastered nearly all the known powers, previously unknown powers, and devises new ones at his pleasure.

--Taken from Dark Empire Sourcebook

And if you want me to post an enormous batch of feats, then I will. Krayt has absolutely nothing on Palpatine.

Besides, it's Bedlam Spirits > The Ones/Abeloth > Luke Skywalker > Palpatine and then its debatable. Where is Plagueis, anyways?

I never mentioned Marek or anything anyways. I don't really care what you think of their story, as it has nothing to do with anything here.

The gap between Luke and Caedus is massive. I don't care what any "official guide" states if it is that conflicting with the actual movie itself. Vader got bested by Luke 4 decades before Caedus was proclaimed 2nd most powerful under Luke. Caedus can take Mace. Prove me wrong.

I don't know what you are talking about, but clearly it has no relevance with anything. If you don't care what canon says, good for you, because I don't care what you say, and your opinion is infinitely overpowered by canon. You can make your own P-Canon/Portal Canon in your own dreamland.

Besides, obviously Caedus can take out Windu. I don't know what relevance that has to do with anything.

@ShootingNova: So what is your verdict on this fight?

@shroudofsorrow: You kind of knocked it around with Round 2, LOL.

1. Caedus.

2. ... I am still a skeptic on the amp. Yes, I realize the amp exists. I do not, however, believe that is why Mace won. I still hold firmly that Palpatine allowed him to win (I will not argue this here. I refuse). So I'm not sure. Caedus might win, but I don't know.

@P0rtal said:

The gap between Luke and Caedus is massive. I don't care what any "official guide" states if it is that conflicting with the actual movie itself. Vader got bested by Luke 4 decades before Caedus was proclaimed 2nd most powerful under Luke. Caedus can take Mace. Prove me wrong.

If you do not recognize the validity of the EU, then it is quite obvious that your opinion on the characters that reside in the EU is worthless. So... yeah, that's about all I have to say.

@ShootingNova: True, Round 2 is a win in favor of the Jedi. But what about Round 1? I'm not sure who wins that, at least in a lightsaber duel.

@shroudofsorrow said:

True, Round 2 is a win in favor of the Jedi.

I never said that.

But what about Round 1? I'm not sure who wins that, at least in a lightsaber duel.

Caedus wins.

@ShootingNova said:

I never said that.

So what were you saying then? Because I believe Caedus goes down hard in a lightsaber fight in Round 2. He still probably wins in a Force fight though since the amp only improved Mace’s lightsaber capability.

@JediXMan said:

1. Caedus.

2. ... I am still a skeptic on the amp. Yes, I realize the amp exists. I do not, however, believe that is why Mace won. I still hold firmly that Palpatine allowed him to win (I will not argue this here. I refuse). So I'm not sure. Caedus might win, but I don't know.

I agree that Palpatine allowed him to win. But, when Anakin arrived he saw blurs that we're lightsabers. and he's seen sublight movement. That means that despite Palpatine likely allowing Mace to win, Mace was still moving around light speed. That's one serious amp

@JamesKM716:

I'm not saying the amp wasn't there. I'm saying that, despite the amp, Palpatine could have won if he chose to.

@JediXMan said:

I'm not saying the amp wasn't there. I'm saying that, despite the amp, Palpatine could have won if he chose to.

Via the Force, not saber combat. Actually, possibly saber combat, but then that wouldn't have been explored.

@JediXMan said:

@JamesKM716:

I'm not saying the amp wasn't there. I'm saying that, despite the amp, Palpatine could have won if he chose to.

Yeah i agree with you. You had said this earlier:

2. ... I am still a skeptic on the amp. Yes, I realize the amp exists. I do not, however, believe that is why Mace won. I still hold firmly that Palpatine allowed him to win (I will not argue this here. I refuse). So I'm not sure. Caedus might win, but I don't know.

You said you we're skeptical on it. So i was just shedding some light on it, and how much more powerful it made Mace

Caedus takes Round 1.

Round 2. I'm not too sure. How powerful Mace became with the amp was never really fleshed out aside from Mace being able to move faster than Anakin could keep up with, and that doesn't really give us much to work with since Caedus is a good deal stronger than Anakin was at that point in my mind. I want to say Caedus wins but I could see Mace taking advantage of the other Jedi distracting Caedus for a few seconds to seize a victory.

Probably not the best first post made here but I thought I'd join the discussion after a month of skimming battles.

I've always wondered how many other people thought it was obvious that Palpatine was playing with Mace? the first time I watched it in the theater I thought it was so blatant and then later after it was released on DVD I found this huge debate about it online and I was like really? I mean did it not just click right away with anyone else? If Anakin had walked in right as Palpatine was cutting Mace down theres no way he would align with Palpatine, by Palpatine appearing to be a helpless old man it was much easier for Anakin to make the choice to side against the Jedi.

@Devil_Driver: Yes, Palpatine was passing himself off as helpless so Anakin would intervene on his behalf, but the preceeding lightsaber duel was a draw. Simple as that. Sidious would have ultimately won if he had wanted to, but only because his Force Power was still>>>>>>>>>Mace Windus. But the lightsaber duel was a draw.

Regardless I stand by my belief that Caedus wins Round 1 but loses badly in Round 2.

hey whats this amp that everyone is talking about?

@Hyperlight: OK, well, you know how Mace fought evenly with Sidious? Well he shouldn't have been able to. Mace is actually only a smidgen better than Kit Fisto and Saesee Tiin (the later of whom once fought evenly with Windu). Mace did as well as he did because he was amped. The amp in question was Mace's desire to protect the Republic he so loved kicking into maximun overdrive, allowing him to fight evenly against Sidious when he otherwise wouldn't have been able to.

Or at least that's how the people on Comicvine like to think of it. Personally I just like to think that Mace's skills improved naturally, but that doesn't hold water with the other debaters, so amp it is.

@shroudofsorrow: thanks for havin my back because i was getting lost in the convos haha.

but i dont know if i would agree with that considering Mace was aruably the best deulist of the order at the time. Didnt he master all the styles and create his own. I would be surprised if he wouldnt be able to take sidious. I cansee why mace wouold lose because his force abilities are inferior, but not because palpatines saber skills are superior.

Is this an official thing?

@Hyperlight: While it is true that Mace was a highly accomplished swordsman, his saber skills are only a smidgen better than those of Kit Fisto and Saesee Tiin. Again, Tiin fought evenly against Mace, and both Mace and Kit have held their own against General Grievous. Finally, Mace is roughly on Dooku's level (losing to him once and stalemating him later), who we all know is below Sidious.

So yes, as good as Mace is, his skills as they normally are would not have been enough to go toe to toe with Sidious. I wish they were but the feats just aren't there.

@shroudofsorrow said:

@Hyperlight: While it is true that Mace was a highly accomplished swordsman, his saber skills are only a smidgen better than those of Kit Fisto and Saesee Tiin. Again, Tiin fought evenly against Mace, and both Mace and Kit have held their own against General Grievous. Finally, Mace is roughly on Dooku's level (losing to him once and stalemating him later), who we all know is below Sidious.

So yes, as good as Mace is, his skills as they normally are would not have been enough to go toe to toe with Sidious. I wish they were but the feats just aren't there.

oh damn... mace was so high up in my mind... but according to you guys ( the experts) hes like a step up from a normal master. im so pissed hahaha. didnt both of them die within like two seconds of the fight? so your saying that he only lasted because he was highly motivated?

@Hyperlight: Not necessarily. Mace is very good, but Palpatine is better. There is no shame in losing to the most powerful Sith to ever live. Mace is a great lightsaber duelist, its just that Palpatine is crazy powerful. Tiin and Kit are not average masters. They are also accomplished lightsaber duelists. Its just that again, Palpatine is better. Its like comparing Thor and Silver Surfer to Galactus or a Celestial, or Gandalf to Morgoth. Just because the latter is immensely more powerful does not mean the other party is unimpressive. Its all a matter of scale.

If it makes you feel better, Palpatine has only one equal (Yoda) and only five superiors (Luke and the Ones of Mortis). He's just that good, and therefore losing to him is nothing to be ashamed of.

Except for, you know, dooming the galaxy to over two decades of his evil...

Round 1: I'd say Jedi. While any of the others would be destroyed in a 1v1 with no effort on Caedus' part, Mace can give Caedus a pretty good fight, and Caedus can't focus on taking out the "fodder" when a big boy like Mace is there giving him hell. The others are a useful distraction, and I think that they give team Jedi a win here.

Round 2: Oh, poor Caedus. Mace's amp allowed him to get up there with Sidious. Evidence points to Palpatine holding back, but it still got Mace to the point where he was up there with the Chancellor. Three others is overkill tbh.