vs.
*Both parties are bloodlusted, and morals are off
Round 1: Sabers only
Round 2: Force Fight
Round 3: All out
Darth Caedus vs. Mace Windu
@ancient_legend said:
I would like to chime in here.
First, yes I have read most of the books, including about Darth Caedus. Also about Mace Windu.
You can claim that you've read this or that you've read that, that hardly makes any difference, unless you factually cite the sources. Moreover, merely reading the sources hardly means anything. Comprehension of the context is just as important as comprehending the feats themselves. That is, of course, assuming you did read the NJO series, the Dark Nest series, and LotF, as well as several other novels, comics, and short stories. And from your post, if I were to deduct anything, I would say you haven't read anything on Caedus at all. I don't know what you've read, but from the outside, it evidently appears as if you cling to Wookieepedia, a non-canonical source that can be edited by anybody, to get your information.
Second, with Mace's mastery of Vaapad, he was able to keep up with the much more powerful Darth Sidious while using Vaapad.
RotS Palpatine is not "much more powerful" than Caedus. He would only win 6-7/10.
Stop acting as if Vaapad is the ultimate win-all be-all, get-out-of-jail free card. Vaapad is strictly an alternative iteration of Juyo, but it is still classified as Form VII for the very reason that its base principles in respects to strict combat remain the same. Mace's mastery Vaapad had him lose to Dooku and Kar Vastor, too, and it had him stalemate Sora and an immobile Grievous in a contest of blades, which forced him to rely on telekinesis to knock them away.
Mace was monumentally amplified during his duel with Darth Sidious because of the very fact that Palpatine had been manipulating the Republic, Mace's true, secret love, from within, was destroying it from within, and Mace had fallen for it. That was precisely why he received monumental levels of darkness within his self, and, thanks to Vaapad's mechanics, channel his own dark emotions.
Vaapad, in simple terms allows him to take the darkness of anyone hes fighting, and turn it against his enemy.
Indeed? Is that, quite precisely, why, in each of the duels against his opponents under neutral circumstances, he failed to do that? I never saw Vaapad manipulating the darknesses of Dooku, of Ventress, or Sora Bulq, of Grievous, or with Kar Vastor. In fact, he only fought Dooku to a draw, fought Sora to a draw, fought Grievous whose mobility was restricted to a draw, and beaten Ventress with difficulty. He lost to Kar Vastor. Now, tell me, because each of these characters are indeed aligned with the dark or the dark side, why Mace Windu failed to "take their darkness", and "turn it against them". Why, if he was so successful against Palpatine, that he would have such issues against lesser opponents? Because I can tell you why. I can tell you that you have no idea what you are talking about.
Vaapad does not "take the darkness of anyone he is fighting". Absolutely no source defines Vaapad as such. The entire premise of Vaapad is for Mace to use his own darkness, not his opponent's:
Mace Windu had almost smiled. "I created Vaapad to answer my weakness: it channels my own darkness into a weapon of the light. Master Yoda's Ataro is also an answer to weakness: the limitations of reach and mobility imposed by his stature and his age. But for you? What weakness does Soresu answer?"
Source: Revenge of the Sith
It channels my owndarkness into a weapon of the light...
Please identify a source which explains that Vaapad uses another's darkness. Because I can tell you that was not how Mace described it, and he is the creator of it. That is not how the RotS novel, or Shatterpoint described it, and they are the two leading sources on Mace. It was certainly not how it was described in Jedi vs Sith or Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force. So kindly tell me where you found the idea that Vaapad "turns the darkness of an enemy against them". That has never happened under any natural circumstances, only with Palpatine, and that was a specific, special circumstance. It is not applicable under any other circumstance, nor is it a useable technique in general. Stop making up information.
In fact, Mace has already stated he does not have power over the darkness in general, so why he would be able to so precisely or so capably manipulate the darkness in select individuals is beyond me, especially considering that he has no direct control over them at all to begin with. Vaapad is exclusively based on the self, as Mace has explained.
The darkness had no power over him. But—
Neither did he have power over it.
Source: Revenge of the Sith
From what we learned during his fight with Sidious, Vaapad can bring Mace's power up to about even with any dark sider he is fighting.
This is simply not true. If it had been like that, then why did Mace lose to Kar Vastor?
In fact, Mace himself conceded that he could have never beaten Vastor:
"As you said earlier: Vastor is a difficult man to lie to. He would have known if I was holding back. Then the beating would have been much worse, and he might very well have killed me. What I did was pick a fight I knew I couldn't win."
Source: Shatterpoint
How curious... or perhaps something more...
As I said before, knowledge is irrelevant without context. You clearly failed to read or understand the context prior to the duel. It was outlined perfectly in Silver's blog, but obviously you didn't read that, either, so I'll explain it to you here, using specific quotes containing only relevant content.
As proven by my first quotation, Vaapad channels Mace's own darkness into a weapon of the light. It is exclusively based on the self. Normally, Mace has a fairly consistent level of darkness. However, the realization of the extent of Palpatine's manipulations, the fact that Mace loves the Republic, and the fact that Palpatine was manipulating and destroying it from within. That Mace didn't even know about any of this.
Anakin's revelation—that Palpatine and Darth Sidious are one and the same—hollows Mace to the core. Not days earlier, he and other Jedi had risked their lives against Grievous's droid forces to prevent Palpatine from being abducted. Grasping that the abduction and the war itself has been nothing more than a deception, Mace leaps into action, promising to take Palpatine into Jedi custody, dead or alive.
Source: The Complete Visual Dictionary
Anakin's revelation clearly affects Mace to an extreme degree, as revealed here.
Because Mace, too, has an attachment. Mace has a secret love. Mace Windu loves the Republic.
...
For Mace Windu, for all his life, for all the lives of a thousand years of Jedi before him, true civilization has had only one true name: the Republic.
...
And because of that love now, here, in this instant, Anakin Skywalker has nine words for him that shred his heart, burn its pieces, and feed him its smoking ashes.
Palpatine is Sidious. The Chancellor is the Sith Lord.
...
Mace Windu's entire existence has become crystal so shot-through with flaws that the hammer of those nine words has crushed him to sand.
...
Anakin could feel how the Force fed upon the shadow's murderous exaltation; he could feel fury spray into the Force though some poisonous abscess had crested in both their hearts.
Source: Revenge of the Sith
All of those extracts reveal that Mace became exorbitantly affected by the realization of Palpatine's true identity; the true extent of his political machinations. Very obviously, it alters the level of darkness within him. It increases it, drastically.
And then, as we go back to the first quote:
"I created Vaapad to answer my weakness: it channels my own darkness into a weapon of the light."
Source: Revenge of the Sith
If Mace's inner darkness became exorbitantly increased to unnaturally high levels, then it would also stand to reason that the way Vaapad operates, which is to channel his own darkness, would thus increase his abilities due to the increase of darkness, as Vaapad would only need to channel the increased darkness in order to give him the amplification. The novel more or less states this, or at least holds it in extreme implication which simply cannot be refuted (and there is no better alternative).
That was precisely the only reason Mace even reacted to him. Palpatine has fought faster than Anakin, TPM Maul and so on have seen, and they are all faster than Mace, especially in perceptive speeds. In fact, a source states Mace failed to realize what had happened when Palpatine killed the Jedi:
Before Mace realizes what has happened, Kolar, Tiin, and Fisto have fallen to Sidious's blade.
Source: Revenge of the Sith
Now, quite evidently, in the film, Mace does react in time to help Fisto (though he still dies), but he evidently failed to do anything in the cases of Agen Kolar and Saesee Tiin. If Mace was really just as fast and skilled or moreso than Palpatine, then there is no reason for him to fail to save Agen Kolar or Saesee Tiin.
Regardless, I stand by my point. Mace has moved in blurs, moved invisibly fast, generated large afterglows and formed afterimages (varying comics, Shatterpoint), formed webs out of his blade (Shatterpoint), struck multiple times before others could blink (Shatterpoint), and so on.
Anakin has encased himself in the light of his blade (AotC novel) and fought fast enough to appear everywhere at once (Jedi Quest: The School of Fear) and generate many more afterimages than Mace did (varying comics), and this was all as a padawan. Later on, he would also react to sub-light speed ships, dodge and fight so fast Dooku, a being of superhumanly accelerated reaction speeds, saw an entire room through an electric blue haze (Revenge of the Sith novel), which, of course, was his lightsaber.
TPM Maul has also displayed superior speed feats. He has fought fast enough for his blows to seemingly be delivered everywhere at once, even whilst injured (Lockdown), has moved so fast that recording equipment had to be slowed down to perceive his movements (Episode I Adventures), indicated that he could kill 4-5 beings in a flicker of an eyelash (Episode I Journal), thrown two strokes so quickly the first could not be distinguished from the second (Episode I Journal), as well as formed fans, shields and webs out of his blades (Shadow Hunter), and has moved faster than Qui-Gon, who has formed shields out of his blade (Cloak of Deception), ran invisibly fast (The Phantom Menace) and disarmed characters before others could take a breath (Jedi Apprentice: Mark of the Crown).
Both of them have failed to see Palpatine before. For TPM Maul:
The lightsaber whirls in the air, twirling, held in my Master's hand. I can't track it, it moves so fast. But I know it's heading for me. Lord Sidious moves faster than my eye can follow.
Source: Episode I Journal: Darth Maul
For TCW Maul, who fails to see anything more than countless blades, and then "even more than that" once Sidious accelerates his speed:
Sidious raised his saber and flew at Maul, who parried desperately, his mechanical legs whirring as he sought to counter his former Master’s blows. Sidious’s sabers were a blur, a whirling cage of deadly plasma. Maul danced away from one blow, then reversed his movement to avoid another, and then there were too many to count, and then there were even more than that.
Source: Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy
For Anakin:
Anakin blinked and rubbed his eyes again. Maybe he was still a bit flash-blind—the Korun Master seemed to be fading in and out of existence, half swallowed by a thickening black haze in which danced a meter-long bar of sunfire. Mace pressed back the darkness with a relentless straight-ahead march; his own blade, that distinctive amethyst blaze that had been the final sight of so many evil beings across the galaxy, made a haze of its own: an oblate sphere of purple fire within which there seemed to be dozens of swords slashing in all directions at once.
The shadow he fought, that blur of speed—could that be Palpatine?
Their blades flared and flashed, crashing together with bursts of fire, weaving nets of killing energy in exchanges so fast that Anakin could not truly see them—but he could feel them in the Force.
Source: Revenge of the Sith
In fact, Leia has reacted to Lightning (The Last Command) and ran multiple kilometers in seconds (Dark Empire), yet she failed to even see Palpatine:
Leia: Be careful, Luke! The Emperor is so strong... They’re both moving so fast, I can hardly see them.
Source: Dark Empire Audio Drama
Palpatine's speed is just too much for Mace to see under normal circumstances. Characters faster than Mace have failed to see him. The only way for Mace to possibly react is, as I have already proven, for him to be amped, exponentially. Nobody in the history of CV, or anywhere else I have seen, has managed to prove otherwise.
In fact, despite the massive augmentation, and the fact that he was "reflecting Palpatine's fury", the latter feat being made exclusively available in this one circumstance due to his augmentation, he was still only Palpatine's equal:
But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue.
Impasse.
Which might have gone on forever, if Vaapad were Mace's only gift.
Source: Revenge of the Sith
They still only fought to a stalemate. They met an at impasse, which "would have lasted forever", as per the RotS novel.
So really, why did Mace "win"? The answer is that he didn't. He won via exploiting a Shatterpoint which was Palpatine's fear, as explicitly, irrefutably described in the novel:
Which might have gone on forever, if Vaapad were Mace's only gift. The fighting was effortless for him now; he let his body handle it without the intervention of his mind. While his blade spun and crackled, while his feet slid and his weight shifted and his shoulders turned in precise curves of their own direction, his mind slid along the circuit of dark power, tracing it back to its limitless source. Feeling for its shatterpoint. He found a knot of fault lines in the shadow's future; he chose the largest fracture and followed it back to the here and the now—
...
He could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so could the blur of Sith he faced; in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear. Easily, almost effortlessly, he turned the shadow's fear into a weapon: he angled the battle to bring them both out onto the window ledge. Out in the wind. Out with the lightning. Out on a rain-slicked ledge above a half-kilometer drop. Out where the shadow's fear made it hesitate. Out where the shadow's fear turned some of its Force-powered speed into a Force-powered grip on the slippery permacrete. Out where Mace could flick his blade in one precise arc and slash the shadow's lightsaber in half.
One piece flipped back in through the cut-open window. The other tumbled from opening fingers, bounced on the ledge, and fell through the rain toward the distant alleys below. Now the shadow was only Palpatine: old and shrunken, thinning hair bleached white by time and care, face lined with exhaustion.
Source: Revenge of the Sith
It explicitly mentions Palpatine's fear. It explicitly mentions that his fear of falling made him hesitate. But then, he wasn't afraid at all:
"Fool!" His voice was a shout of thunder. "Do you think the fear you feel is mine?"
...
And Palpatine was not afraid. Mace could feel it: he wasn't worried at all.
Source: Revenge of the Sith
It was evident that it was Anakin's fear, not Palpatine's. Palpatine misdirecting Mace's usage of Shatterpoint, which, to me, is highly implicit of the fact that Palpatine threw the duel all along, but that has never been confirmed so it would be best not to reach for conclusions, but regardless, it is the cold, hard fact that Mace was factually, irrefutably amped. He would not be able to even see Palpatine under normal circumstances, but the mechanics of Vaapad amped him due to the excess darkness within him, as I have proven.
Also, Yoda is a factually, irrefutably superior duelist to Mace, as stated by Nick Gillard and by a number of EU sources:
To the uninitiated, lightsaber combat can seem like a confusing blur of swipes and blade clashes, but on close examination, the secrets of the Jedi Knights become clear. To understand the combat of these warriors, we must delve into the sacred history of the fabled Seven Forms of Jedi lightsaber combat and look at how these have played out in the Star Wars saga. Only then can we understand the extraordinary combat moves of Yoda, perhaps the greatest lightsaber master the Jedi Order has ever seen.
Source: Insider #62: Fightsaber: Jedi Lightsaber Combat
With a stooped, small appearance, Yoda may not look like a warrior, but his skills with a lightsaber were unequaled.
Source: Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force
Master Windu was also known within the Order for his unusual fighting style, one that he developed after studying the dueling styles of various lightsaber masters. His attacks consisted of relentless, unpredictable blows, like shots from an autoblaster. Master Windu himself remained perfectly balanced and centered. In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective.
Source: Power of the Jedi Sourcebook
Though it was true that he had slowed slightly in the years that Mace Windu had known him, Yoda's skill with a lightsaber was still second to none on the council.
Source: Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter
"Mace Windu's fighting abilities are second only to Yoda."
Loading Video...
(5:28 - 5:35):
"We have not seen Mace fight yet, and we know he's second only to Yoda."
So Yoda is an even better fighter and duelist than Mace is, and yet, Palpatine dueled Yoda to a draw, and there were no circumstances such as amplifications involved in that duel. Clearly, Sidious is superior to Mace under normal circumstances.
Additionally, Palpatine could have killed Mace at any time via Lightning. It was clearly stated that even Vaapad was useless, and that the blade was bending back towards Mace:
Now Anakin was at Mace's shoulder. Palpatine still made no move to defend himself from Skywalker; instead he ramped up the lightning bursting from his hands, bending the fountain of Mace's blade back toward the Korun Master's face.
...
"You're the chosen one, Anakin," Mace said, his voice going thin with strain. This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade. "Take him. It's your destiny."
Source: Revenge of the Sith
He stopped only due to requiring the manipulation of Anakin, not killing Mace outright, but it was obvious he could do that, as per the novel's descriptions.
And since this tends to touch upon Palpatine's face being disfigured, I will address it here as well. Everybody immediately references Palpatine's speech in the Senate and his later public remarks - it's obvious Palpatine is a liar, and quite hopefully that requires no elucidation, but sources have proven that Palpatine's face was disfigured due to his dark side practices, and they were masked by the Force - the deflected Lightning merely revealed his true face:
As often as Plagueis maintained that the Rule of Two had ended with their partnership, the Muun remained the powerful one, and Palpatine the covetous one. Bane’s dictum notwithstanding, denial was still a key factor in Sith training; a key factor in being “broken,” as Plagueis put it—of being shaped by the dark side of the Force. Cruelly, at times, and painfully. But Palpatine was grateful, for the Force had slowly groomed him into a being of dark power and granted him a secret identity, as well. The life he had been leading—as the noble head of House Palpatine, legislator, and most recently ambassador-at-large—was nothing more than the trappings of an alter ego; his wealth, a subterfuge; his handsome face, a mask.
Source: Darth Plagueis
"Always two there are"—not only master and apprentice, but persona and true face. Unmasked by deflected lightning during his duel with Mace Windu, the Sith Lord's true face is revealed to the world.
Source: The Complete Visual Dictionary
So Mace did not inflict the deformity upon Palpatine, that was due to his corruption from the dark side. In fact, since people like to cite Palpatine's public speeches, on top of countering that by saying Palpatine is one of the most unreliable and publicly dishonest characters in SW, I can cite a less dishonest, more reliable character in SW, Darth Plagueis, personally stating Palpatine would transform on his own:
"Will I eventually be physically transformed?"
"Into some aged, pale-skinned, raspy-voiced, yellow-eyed monster, you mean. Such as the one you see before you.
...
The power of the dark side is an illness no true Sith would wish to be cured of."
Source: Darth Plagueis
The last thing I would like to address is this quote:
"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't got all beat-up, he could've beat the Emperor."
All Lucas says is that you have to be either Mace or Yoda in order to compete with Palpatine (in other words, not get stomped). And that's correct. All he said is that you have to be either one of them to compete with the Sidious. And the EU expounds on that - Yoda is the only one with the innate, intrinsic skill, speed and power to compete with Palpatine, whereas Mace is the only one who can channel his dark, emotional traumas into an amplification due to Vaapad. And so, Yoda and Mace are the only ones who can compete with the Emperor - except for Yoda, none of the Jedi can react to Palpatine, but Mace has the capacity to receive an amplification because he is the only Jedi who mastered Vaapad (Sora and Depa didn't, as Mace described it, "Vaapad mastered them".)
That should, hopefully, clear up the Palpatine vs Mace Windu issue. And this is also why the amp does not apply here - Caedus is not Sidious; he did not manipulate the Republic from within for years and fool Mace, as well, in fact, Mace doesn't even know of Caedus's existence, or his identity. So the amplification would not apply because there would not be an overwhelming level of darkness within him.
Third, I know Darth Caedus can also use Shatterpoint, but in my opinion he would be so focused on cutting Windu down in saber combat, and so angry that he could not, that he would not have time, and or, the ability to try, with Mace Windu all over him and attacking Caedus with speed and power that matches his own.
Caedus would be "so angry"? You just showed that you know nothing about Caedus.
And Mace does not match Caedus in speed and power; not even close. Again, Mace's normal, non-amplified speed feats are:
Mace has moved in blurs, moved invisibly fast, generated large afterglows and formed afterimages (varying comics, Shatterpoint), formed webs out of his blade (Shatterpoint), struck multiple times before others could blink (Shatterpoint), and so on.
Caedus has fought fast enough to contend with Luke, a duelist of Palpatine's speed class - again, too fast for Mace to even see or react, let alone fight properly (Inferno), although this was with a number of elements in Caedus's favor, has outran blaster bolts (whilst injured, IIRC) (Betrayal), brandished his lightsaber fast enough to cover entire chamber corners in the light of his blade, formed ribbons of light with his blade, into which he disappeared (Invincible), and moved fast enough to appear as a blur and form fans out of his blade, even immediately after being stabbed in the gut (Invincible).
Caeuds is several tiers ahead of Mace in speed. In fact, his speed feats were of Mace's class after he was severely injured by being stabbed through the gut.
As for Mace equaling Caedus in power, you clearly didn't read anything on Caedus has you claimed if you believe this is the case. Mace has a number of inconsistent telekinetic showings - with the more consistent ones, he has telekinetically destroyed droids via Force Push, displayed Crush on non-Force sensitives such as Grievous, gathered visible energy and utilized considerable effort in order to manipulate a 13m AT-TE, has manipulated trees and boulders, and has collapsed unstable cliff-face portions.
Caedus has telekinetically manipulated 40m ships, effortlessly manipulated 16m Y-Wings, casually hurled speeders at Jedi whilst engaged with said four Jedi, incapacitated Ben Skywalker via Lightning, has utilized multiple Force powers at once, displayed Flow-walking, Fold Space and Force Meld, and so on. Caedus is multiple tiers ahead of Mace, powerful enough to even ragdoll him.
So no, Mace does not have speed and power that matches Caedus's. Caedus is a significant number of tiers ahead of Mace in both.
I think Mace Windu takes round 1 9/10 because of the above stated reasons.
The above reasons, which are all false, which are all founded on the basis of lack of intrinsic knowledge and lack of understanding of context, and which are more likely taken from Wookieepedia than from the actual sources themselves (the only source I can infer you to have read is the RotS novel). You may have read more, but clearly, you failed to grasp the context. So again, it matters not what knowledge you possess; it only matters if you know how to apply that knowledge.
Caedus would win every time, in a good fight.
Round 2 and 3 are a bit more ambiguous because aside from force lightning, we are never really told how other force powers would work on Mace while he gives himself fully to Vaapad, but I would imagine the effects would be similar, Mace would reflect the powers back at the caster, be it choke, lightning, etc.
Nonsense. Mace can reflect Force powers? That never happened, and you cannot "reflect" Choke. What this reflects is how lacking you are in the knowledge of SW Force powers.
Moreover, is this Mace reflecting Force powers?
This is unprecedented fanwanking on Mace's part. Never have I ever heard somebody claim Mace is absolutely immune to Force attack because he would innately "reflect" them back at others, which doesn't even make sense. He deflected Palpatine's Lightning with all his effort, and he was about to die, but Palpatine stopped in order to manipulate Anakin.
Both the RotS comic and the novel depict Mace being TKed into a wall by Palpatine, so that evidently disproves your theory that if Mace was "giving himself fully to Vaapad", something I will take to mean "if he was amped in that one-time scenario", he would be immune to Force powers.
That being said I don't we have a clear enough understanding of Vaapad's full capability's to make a solid judgment call.
Not we, just you. Vaapad is elucidated on clearly enough. Don't even attempt to imply there is more to Vaapad than the preposterousness you were spouting earlier.
In other words, you rashly jumped to conclusions via extensive reaching, despite the fact that you personally confess to not having enough understanding to do so? This is non sequitur with your previous comments, which were also all appeals to ignorance.
If you need information, ask. That's what the boards are here for.
The only thing we do know, is that Mace was able to reflect sith lightning from the at the time, considered by most, to be the most powerful dark side user to have ever lived, right back at him, and melt his face/mask off.
Mace nearly died from that, despite the fact that he was amped (which became irrelevant), because his blade was being bent back towards his face, as per the novel. In the novel, it was made clear that Palpatine could have killed him via Lightning, but stopped in order to play games with Anakin.
Now Anakin was at Mace's shoulder. Palpatine still made no move to defend himself from Skywalker; instead he ramped up the lightning bursting from his hands, bending the fountain of Mace's blade back toward the Korun Master's face.
...
"You're the chosen one, Anakin," Mace said, his voice going thin with strain. This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade. "Take him. It's your destiny."
Source: Revenge of the Sith
None of what you have said is correct. Really, it was evident that your post was conjured from a combination of just making up information, and then relying on non-canonical sources such as Wookieepedia. You just prefaced your argument once with "I read all these sources" just to make yourself appear more convincing, but from what can be seen from your post, you really haven't read any of it, or if you did, you clearly weren't paying attention. I'm not in any desperation to reach for conclusions, so I will not claim to know what you have or haven't read, only state what seems apparent to me from the outside.
I'm simply tired of all the Mace Windu fanwank. Whether this was intentional or not is inconsequential, but the amount of misinformation being spread on the basis of ignorance is overwhelming.
Vaapad is not an innately superior lightsaber form. I have no idea why people sell it as an ultimate, intrinsically-superior lightsaber form. It's just another style based on different principles. It is not the ultimate lightsaber form, and again, I have absolutely no idea why people sell it as such.
@ancient_legend said:
I would like to chime in here.
First, yes I have read most of the books, including about Darth Caedus. Also about Mace Windu.
In my humble opinion, most of your are writing Windu off far to easy. Wait!!!
Before you call for my head, I ask only that you hear me out please.
First, as I understand it, their are no sneak attacks or stealth kills allowed, this is a face each other, bow, then begin fighting death match. If im wrong, please tell me.
Second, with Mace's mastery of Vaapad, he was able to keep up with the much more powerful Darth Sidious while using Vaapad. Vaapad, in simple terms allows him to take the darkness of anyone hes fighting, and turn it against his enemy. Now, again, hear me out.
From what we learned during his fight with Sidious, Vaapad can bring Mace's power up to about even with any dark sider he is fighting. Then, he can fight effortlessly, (taken straight from the episode 3 novel), with his enemy, and begin to think about strategy, or even use his Shatterpoint ability.
Third, I know Darth Caedus can also use Shatterpoint, but in my opinion he would be so focused on cutting Windu down in saber combat, and so angry that he could not, that he would not have time, and or, the ability to try, with Mace Windu all over him and attacking Caedus with speed and power that matches his own.
I think Mace Windu takes round 1 9/10 because of the above stated reasons.
Round 2 and 3 are a bit more ambiguous because aside from force lightning, we are never really told how other force powers would work on Mace while he gives himself fully to Vaapad, but I would imagine the effects would be similar, Mace would reflect the powers back at the caster, be it choke, lightning, etc.
That being said I don't we have a clear enough understanding of Vaapad's full capability's to make a solid judgment call. The only thing we do know, is that Mace was able to reflect sith lightning from the at the time, considered by most, to be the most powerful dark side user to have ever lived, right back at him, and melt his face/mask off.
Agreed, (again)
Also for addition to Mace's TK defense, in RotS comic book, Mace already proved that he can resist an telekinetic attack from Darth Sidious; right here :
He can also deflect a powerful force lightning as we've seen it before.
@ancient_legend said:
So Vaapad is not simply a variation of form 7, its so much more than that.
We also know from reading Shatterpoint....... That Mace feared the darkside, he feared what giving himself completely over to Vaapad would do, would he fall to the darkside as everyone else who had truly learned Vaapad had? Vos did not master Vaapad, let me just stop you right there. Lets go back to the book.
There was a time when Mace Windu had feared the power of the dark; there was a time when he had feared the darkness in himself. But the Clone Wars had given him a gift of understanding: on a world called Haruun Kal, he had faced his darkness and had learned that the power of darkness is not to be feared. He had learned that it is fear that gives the darkness power. He was not afraid. The darkness had no power over him.
After his time on his home planet, he finally truly mastered Vaapad. He could fully give himself to it, and fight at his maximum power, combing with Vaapad to defeat any dark side user he encountered. But im getting ahead of myself, you also said.
Indeed? Is that, quite precisely, why, in each of the duels against his opponents under neutral circumstances, he failed to do that? I never saw Vaapad manipulating the darknesses of Dooku, of Ventress, or Sora Bulq, of Grievous, or with Kar Vastor. In fact, he only fought Dooku to a draw, fought Sora to a draw, fought Grievous whose mobility was restricted to a draw, and beaten Ventress with difficulty. He lost to Kar Vastor. Now, tell me, because each of these characters are indeed aligned with the dark or the dark side, why Mace Windu failed to "take their darkness", and "turn it against them". Why, if he was so successful against Palpatine, that he would have such issues against lesser opponents? Because I can tell you why. I can tell you that you have no idea what you are talking about.
Vaapad does not "take the darkness of anyone he is fighting". Absolutely no source defines Vaapad as such. The entire premise of Vaapad is for Mace to use his own darkness, not his opponent's:
Once Mace fully mastered Vaapad, he could draw from any darksider, not just Sidious.
There was no Jedi restraint here. Mace Windu was cutting loose.
In all those instances, Mace was not cutting lose, he didn't give himself fully over to Vaapad. By the way, Dooku ran, Ventress ran, GG that fight was a terrible place to fight for either of them, and Windu could have killed him at anytime if he really wanted to, with just a force crush, as he did when he saw Palp being kidnaped, he stopped messing around, and got down to business, but GG is not a Darksider, he cant draw from him as he would from Dooku or Vader, even then GG ran. So that's 3 people who ran, that's 3 W's for Windu, with 1 draw, if you want to count the train fight.
There was no Jedi restraint here. Mace Windu was cutting loose.
Mace was deep in it now: submerged in Vaapad, swallowed by it, he no longer truly existed as an independent being. Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center—
And let it fountain out again. He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt.
Did you catch the part about Mace drawing on the shadow's rage and power into his center, and throwing it right back at him? The same way a light saber reflects a blaster bolt.... Or Sith lightning, true he didn't resist that force push, but he disengaged his blade lock, and jumped to a window, did that mean he fell out of Vaapad? Because soon after he had to drop back into it.
Let me say I agree with parts of Silver's post, and parts I don't. Mace was amped, I agree. Mace defeated Sidious in the lightsaber part of their duel, if Sidious was just going to let him win, why did he try to push him out of the window, with Mace barley able to survive that?
You also said. Vaapad does not "take the darkness of anyone he is fighting". Absolutely no source defines Vaapad as such. The entire premise of Vaapad is for Mace to use his own darkness, not his opponent's: Please see above....
Sorry, im running out of time here. But you should understand where im coming from more clearly now, just to finish this part about Windu and his amp. Windu did not truly master Vaapad until he fought Sidious, he let himself go, he said F*** it lets go, he cut loose, something Windu is not known for doing, he stays cool and calm under pressure, even when being beaten by Vastor, and again, he was only beaten because he had not fully mastered Vaapad yet, he was still afraid of what it would do to him.
Now lets talk about Yoda, and Sora, and such. Yoda is a different story, but when Mace is sparring with other Jedi, does it make any sense at all to cut loose on them? No it doesn't, that's just asking for injury and death to happen, Mace is a very humble guy, he doesn't care who thinks they are as good as he is. So yes you see other Jedi spar with him, but is he really using Vaapad on them, do you really think hes cutting loose on other Jedi? I could be wrong, but I don't think any book or comic says while he sparring, not fighting, that he is using Vaapad on other Jedi. Sparring is just that, sparring. Not cut loose, throw your Jedi ideals to the way side and murder your friends.
About Sora and Depa, is it 100% out of the realm of possibility that he didn't want to kill them? As I already stated, he had not yet truly mastered Vaapad when fighting them, but lets say he did. Depa was like a daughter to him, he didn't want to hurt her, much less kill her. Here we have humble Windu just trying to have his cake and eat It to, don't hurt her, but still bring her home. Sora developed Vaapad along side Mace, as stated, he had not truly mastered Vaapad, but even if he did, would cool calm Windu really just kill his friend? I don't think so, once he realized Ventress was killing Jedi, he ended the fight, in a none lethal way, and told her she was not good enough to beat him, she agrees to this, and runs. He even said he didn't want to kill her, but he would if he had to, she agreed to that as well, Ventress admitting someone is good enough to kill her.
Yoda, same deal, did he use Vaapad on Yoda? Try to kill Yoda? I think not. Sparring is sparring. I took marital arts for 10 years, the first thing they say when sparring, is control, keep everything controlled. Yoda is also different from most others, because he has no darkness to draw from, but Mace could still draw from his own darkness, although it would not be nearly as effective. Yoda fought Dooku, Dooku strained a bit, but handled everything Yoda threw at him, then ran. That's a W for Yoda, but not a smashing one. So one could be forgiven for thinking logically that if Dooku could defend Yoda, so could Windu. Yoda has little stamina from his age, if you weather his initial storm, then get him on the defensive, just as Sidious did, you can outlast him.
Ok bed time, work tomorrow, sorry if I didn't answer everything you posted. Im happy to debate with all of you if you don't agree, but please keep in mind my free time is limited, but I will post when I can. Also, please be respectful, its no fun to debate with people who think they are elitists. I apologize for my snarky comments, I was a bit angry, but im over it now, and to tired to go back and delete them.
Agreed about Sora and Depa, they have a serious history together and I believe thats why he was holding back massively (he defeated Bulq when he learned Ventress). When it come to Ventress, he simply outclassed her. Same Ventress is superior to Sora.
Mace usually holds back as you said, it has been confirmed many times ;
The fight is over. Accept it -- and your life...
Mace Windu fights only defensively, fending off his fellow jedi, hoping to make him see reason once more... And his opponent ?
His opponent flows with the rage in his heart... His opponent seeks to kill.
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