Darth Bane and Zannah vs Maul and Opress

Darth Bane and Darth Zannah

VS

Darth Maul and Savage Opress

Rules

• No prep, random encounter.
• No orbalisk armor for Bane.
• Win by death or KO.
• Morals are on, in character.
• Location is a generic city setting on Coruscant.

Hasn't Bane been non-canonized

Probably, which is a huge shame.

@dondave: really? I didn't know that.

@tparks@iragexcudder He's still canon. An illusion of him appeared in TCW.

@iragexcudder: Technically though, none of the EU stuff is really cannon within the films. There are several layers of extended universe cannon, and it gets pretty mixed up sometimes. Stories like these will just be another layer of cannon, making things even more confusing.

Check the spoiler block for current cannon levels:

Cool. I didn't know that. I wonder if they consider his three novels and couple of comic issues canon, or just his existence. I really think those novels set up some of the best lore for the entire Star Wars series. I really hope they keep his stories.

Darth Bane and Darth Zannah should be able to win this.
Bane has a greater command of the Force and is arguably a better duelist than Maul so he could be able to beat him.
Zannah is a master of creating increadible defenses suited to protect her from such Blunt Instruments like Savage.

Maul is faster, stronger, and more skilled than Bane he can take him with mid difficulty at most

Bane's lightning has never killed anything but fodder, he can absorb it with a saber, and none of Bane's feats in DOE suggest he can ragdoll and or penetrate Maul's force shield.

Zannah struggled to utilize her spells with strength based fighters like Bane/Sarro when they were on the offensive, I see no reason why Savage wouldn't have the same luck pressing Zannah on the offensive.

Maul kills Bane and helps his brother take out Zannah

The Dathomirians should take this

@tparks:

Well they kept the impact he had on the Star Wars universe as being the one who devised the Rule of Two as Yoda stated in the Clone Wars. Just not the details. Still a bit of a shame though.

Could go either way, though I'd vouch for the brothers more often than not.

Bane and Zannah

Without preparation, I think Maul and Savage Opress have a very good chance. Despite being frequently cited as one of the greatest of Sith Lords, I can see Darth Bane being the first to fall. He has been shown to neglect his defences, and one of the advantages he enjoys over most opponents in an unprepared encounter - raw physical strength- would be nullified against Savage Opress.

Right on

@jeditraining101: Zannah defeats Opress, Bane beats Maul. Alternatively, Zannah loses to Maul, but not before Savage falls to Bane. Either way, team 1 win.

Team 1. Opress is a massive weak link.

I think people are underselling opress here....

actually, ur right

Really? He gave some pretty impressive performances in The Clone Wars. He dominated Obi-Wan in a fight which saw Kenobi disarmed and knocked around like a ragdoll. Kenobi later described himself and Asajj Ventress as being "outmatched" when faced with Maul and Savage.

Savage later showed surprising speed when fighting Adi Gallia (who typically fought in an aggressive style under Form V), keeping her in a defensive, almost fleeing position.

He may not have the Force feats of Bane and Zannah, but he can use telekinetics in a manner which complements his fighting style, and has shown sufficient Force strength to knock Anakin and Obi-Wan (alongside about a dozen battle droids) from their feet, and pushed Adi Gallia with enough force to disorient her, allowing him to land a killing blow.

I think he may turn out to be one of the strongest fighters in this battle, and in a spontaneous match would likely kill Bane.

@discipulus: Zannah will destroy him with Sorcery. And Bane is much more powerful than non-enraged Opress, and has lightning, which Opress has no defense for.

Savage can evade the lightning, as Hetton, a much lesser Force user than Savage, managed to.

@azronger: You make a fair point in that Opress is rather poor at defending against lightning, as he was suppressed time after time by Dooku. However, I'd argue that his raw strength serves him well here. When Dooku unleashed his lightning on Anakin in Attack of the Clones, it incapacitated him for quite some time. Opress, on the other hand, was standing again very quickly. Bane could use Opress' weakness in defending against lightning to knock down Opress and finish off Maul (assuming Maul is fighting Zannah at this time), but I think I still favour the aggressive lightsaber tactics of the brothers, as Opress may simply deny Bane a chance to use his lightning if he fought the way he did against Adi Gallia.

@xpa: I can't remember a single dodging feat from Savage. He's not the dodging type.

And how would that even help him in the long run? If he dodges, Bane fires another. It'd be a pointless tactic that'd only delay the inevitable.

And Opress sure as hell isn't dodging a storm.

@discipulus: Bane isn't Gallia, lol. Opress is going down if he attempts to overpower an almost equally towering duelist, who's additionally far more refined and precise with his bladework.

And at a distance, Opress is just a basketball to be tossed around with lightning and TK.

Team 1

FFS people still think this is a fight, team one basically stomps.

@emperordmb: Could Bane arguably solo?

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/darth-bane-vs-darth-maul-and-savage-opress-1836600/?page=1#js-message-17608230

No way is team 1 stomping. If the brothers lose at all, they are giving huge amounts of pain to team 1 beforehand.

This.

Team 2 wins, better duelists and better raw TK.

Zannah needs a moment to use sorcery of any degree that would overpower either brother (DoE). Maul is too fast and Savage too powerful for her to ever get that moment. Also, Maul's mental fortitude shows that he is able to withstand telepathic intrusion (the example from the Darth Maul comic - while mentally attacking the intruder and killing him), although he didn't face a Sith when he did so. She in no way would physically outmatch either of them.

Bane is a formidable opponent and would be the one that they have a difficult time with, but he would not win. By virtue of the RoT, Maul should be more powerful than Bane.* He'd defeat Savage because of experience and knowledge. Savage would deflect lightning with his lightsaber, which we see him do against Sidious in a cutscene from TCW's "Lawless." It was cut only because of time. If he can deflect Sidious' lightning, then I don't think he'd have a difficult time deflecting Bane's.

* Yes, Maul was intended to be Sidious' successor. Canon overrides the EU for this, but it is also in the EU.

@greysentinel365: Hey that's my thread! :P Nah Bane isn't soloing these two together.

@nfactor1995: Honestly it is arguable

But he would lose more times than win

@redheathen: Not in the mood to argue, but I'll just adress some of the misconceptions in your post.

1. Banite scaling only benefits people who are near or have surpassed their Master in power. And Maul is niwhere near Sidious, so that can't be used as evidence he's stronger than Bane.

2. That deleted scene is non-canon, since it contradicts official sources stating Sidious never lost his advantage over the brothers, but in the clip he gets pinned to a wall. Not canon.

@greysentinel365: Care to make an argument why he can solo?

@azronger:

I can't remember a single dodging feat from Savage. He's not the dodging type.

No? According to whom? You? Savage will do whatever necessary to emerge victorious. If fodder Force wielders can evade Bane's lightning, he can too.

And how would that even help him in the long run? If he dodges, Bane fires another. It'd be a pointless tactic that'd only delay the inevitable.

As pointless as Bane firing lightning infinitely. Savage evades, then throws his lightsaber at Bane, who is then the one forced to evade. According to your point, Savage would keep throwing it until it eventually hit Bane or otherwise distracted him enough for Savage to attack him in other ways.

And Opress sure as hell isn't dodging a storm.

I don't recall Bane's lightning storms; remind me, did he ever use them in combat , and what was the context? You would be kind to provide the relevant excerpt, if so.

Either way, what you said about Zannah doesn't fly.

1) We don't know what Maul's potential was when he was the apprentice of Sidious, but it was large enough that Sidious did intend for Maul to succeed him. That is not capable of being disputed because there is enough sources to back it up. There may be one or two EU sources that say otherwise, but there is more in the EU that says otherwise in addition to canon. Sidious regretted the loss of Maul, and it's even acknowledged in new canon:

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2) What in this OP is strictly canon? This entire thread is a battle that includes noncanon characters and abilities. We have TCW executive producer, Dave Filoni, saying that they had to cut the scenes down because of time. There was no other reason that they were cut out. You're dismissing something that is just as valid as anything else that is said in this thread that isn't canon.

Savage is a glaring weak link, honestly. Team 1 wins, but it isn't a stomp by any means.

@redheathen:

1. That changes nothing.

2. It doesn't matter why they were cut out. All that matters is that they were, and thus are given the lowest possible ranking in canonicity. And while it would be valid, if it didn't contradict higher sources, but it does. So, not canon.

@xpa: Just by observing his fights we can see that he's not the type to dodge, but power his way through things. Didn't dodge Dooku's lightning despite repeatedly getting hit. Why would the case with Bane be any different?

Bane would catch the saber with the Force or slice it in half mid-air. He isn't required to dodge. For Savage, however, it's a necessity.

He used a storm in PoD when he first learnt it, and in RoT when he got pissed at failing to make a holocron. Don't have the passages, though. Sorry.

@azronger: Perhaps because of the confined space they were fighting in? Regardless, wouldn't his previous experiences with Dooku only increase the likelihood that Savage would want to dodge it this time? He doesn't have fond memories of lightning, I'm sure.

I'm not entirely sure how Bane would catch the lightsaber with the Force, since Savage would just force it upon him if they both tried to control it (he has better TK feats than Bane, for one, so this wouldn't work in Bane's favour). As for slicing the lightsaber in half? Then he'd have to dodge two lightsabers the next time Savage throws them.

1. What doesn't change what?

• You were wrong about Zannah. There is no way the brothers would give her a chance to use sorcery strong enough to overpower either of them (DoE). She is physically weaker than either of them. Please explain how she could defeat them.
• Maul was to be successor to Sidious. It is stated in more than one source, and since you want to rely on canon so much, it is stated in canon as well as in interviews with creators of TCW, SW, and the actor who portrays both characters in TCW. It is only in the EU, post-ROTJ, that we learn that Sidious never wanted a successor, and Lucas has said that that Sidious simply isn't a true portrayal of the character. No matter what, GM Luke and DE Sidious will always be noncanon, as in not even in old canon, so if you want to talk strictly canon, then we'll have to stick with Sidious wanting a successor. It is canon from the movies, just from TPM, that Maul is Sidious' apprentice and that there is a master and an apprentice, one to replace the other. End of story. "Always two there are..." and all that. We don't know what Maul's strength is, and we do know that he was able to withstand and hold his own for a while against Sidious, who is the most powerful Sith ever in the history of the Order. Maul may be no where near Sidious, but Bane isn't, either. The point of the comic panel from DV #20 is that Sidious thought of Maul as valuable to him, and the only value anyone can have to Sidious is if they are worthy of him and his plans. Maul was worthy in the eyes of Sidious. There are other passages I can give to back this up, but they are from the EU. So not only was Maul to be his successor, but Sidious thought of him as worthy enough to be his successor.

2. Why doesn't it matter?

• "[T]he lowest possible ranking in canonicity" is N, which is "noncanon", yet you went on to say, "And while it would be valid...", so I assume that you are discussing C canon considering it is given validity. We are discussing T canon (the tv show), which is above C canon and just below G canon, however, considering it is TCW, we are also discussing new canon. Once an item was in any tier, it was equal to other items in that tier, unless you would please give me an original source saying otherwise.
• The cut scenes were acknowledged by Filoni. When noncanon is acknowledged, just being mentioned, by the powers that be or in other canon sources, generally, that means they are canonized. It's similar to issues 1 - 23 of Star Wars Tales not being canon, but then either parts of those issues or parts of those stories became canonized simply because they were mentioned in a reference book or by a SW guru, such as Leland Chee and such as in a tweet. This is why "Resurrection", in SWT #9, is not considered noncanon in old canon and why portions of other SWT stories are canon.
• You say, "...if it didn't contradict higher sources...," but you do not say what other sources let alone what other "higher" sources. Would you please share that?

Team 1 in a decent fight because Savage won't be able to last as long as Maul.

@nfactor1995: Eh, why not

Preface: This entire argument is simply for the fun of it. I do not believe Bane can solo these two for a majority

Bane has been shown to be comparable to the duo while massively pre-prime via his force wave that took out the Rakatan temple, which is comparable to brothers shown combined power here

Many would be quick to dismiss this comparison due to Bane's wave taking place on a nexus. However this would only really affect this if we were considering PoD Bane which we are not.

Storing the Holocron safely away, he ventured forth from the crypt to find a way to escape the surface of Dxun. The specters of Kaan and Qordis were waiting for him outside.

"You are trapped here " Qordis said, falling immediately into his litany of failure and despair. "What good is the Holocron if you can never leave this moon?"

Bane reached inward to call upon the dark side, drawing it not only from himself but also from the orbalisks fastened to his chest and back. Feeling an incredible surge of power beyond any he had known before, he released it in a burst of energy. The hallucinations that had plagued his wounded mind ever since the detonation of the thought bomb vanished, instantly and utterly annihilated by his newfound power. He was stronger now than he ever had been, and he knew the visions of the dead Sith would haunt him no more.

Darth Bane: Rule of Two

Now with only two orbalisks attached to his person, Bane is more powerful than he had ever been, which would include his experiences on Lehon and his duel with Kasim.

After this point the orbalisks continued growing to cover his entire body. This would result in a vast increase in power.

Not only this, but during this time was still studying a multitude of holocrons filled with dark side knowledge, which would increase his power also.

But what does this matter you ask? Bane lost the Orbablisks and would have grown weaker without them.

At first yes. But this does not invalidate the increase he would have received from all the dark side knowledge contained within the holocrons.

Even then. Using Bane's duels with Zannah we can extrapolate that he in fact is more powerful in DoE than he was in his orbalisk incarnation.

She fell into a defensive posture as she so often had during their training sessions. But this was no drill, and her Master came at her with a speed and ferocity she had never faced before. Giving in to his orbalisk-fueled bloodrage, he was like a wild animal, raining savage blows down on her from all angles, the strikes coming so fast it seemed as if he wielded a dozen blades at the same time.

Darth Bane: Rule of Two

She scrambled to her feet and twirled her lightsaber before her, creating what she hoped would be an impenetrable wall of defense. Instead of trying to pierce her guard, Bane leapt high in the air and came down almost right on top of her. She deftly parried his blade, redirecting it to the side as she spun away to keep his body from slamming into her.

Darth Bane: Rule of Two

Now compared to DoE

He opened with a series of two-handed overhead chops, using his great height to bring his blade hacking down at her from above. She easily blocked each blow, but the momentum of the crushing impact caused her to stagger back, throwing her off balance.

Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil

He was faster than she could ever have imagined, and he was using new sequences and unfamiliar moves he had never revealed during their practice sessions.

Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil

So from this we can see at a bare minimum that Bane is faster than Zannah ever could have imagined, which would include their fight when encased in orbalisks.

Considering Zannah's own improvement during that time, Bane's speed would have to be significantly improved.

But wait they cry!!!!!!!

As Bane aged and grew weaker after years of using the dark side, and from his injuries sustained at the battle on Tython, he became obsessed with learning the secret of immortality.

Credit: Star Wars Fact File 64 ( Relaunched)

This refers purely to Bane's physical body which of course weakened through years of use of the dark side. However Force Augmentation would allow him to compensate for this in combat. As have other aged fighters such as Qui-Gon, Dooku, Sidious, Yoda etc etc.

While using physical augmentation as a gauge for ones power is a tricky proposition on it's own. This in conjunction with Bane's accumulated knowledge (and therefore power) points to Bane being magnitudes more powerful than the incarnation which performed a feat equivalent to the brothers combined power.

This along with his lighting provides a comfortable edge over the two brothers in this area. Allowing him to incapacitate either with a blast or bolt should they manage to pressure him.

Likewise he should have the edge in dueling in all categories. For a number of reasons

Bane's dedicated defensive abilities have been sufficient to ward off Rakasta Lsu's duel blade assault

Raska's blue blades flickered too quickly for the eye to see, neutralizing her enemy's initial, wild attack then landing half a dozen lethal blows to his chest and abdomen.

.....

She seemed to be everywhere at once-in front of Bane, beside him, behind him, circling low, leaping to come in high, deflecting his blade with one of her own then stabbing three quick times in succession at his eyes. The big man's head ducked and bobbed, twisting and turning to avoid her blows as he tried to mount a counteroffensive.

Raskta's mastery of her blades was unparalleled, but even with her talents augmented by Worror's battle meditation she wasn't able to land a telling blow on such a small target through Bane's defenses.

Rule of Two

Considering this is from a BM amped Faralla's perception. It obviously puts forth that Bane speed is considerable. Especially when put in the comparison of that General Grievous was known for striking at such speeds. Likewise Maul has only ever managed to stalemate Grievous in sabers

Likewise in their second duel (despite it taking place on Dathomir where Maul would have been amped) Maul only managed a stalemate again until Grievous was distracted by Sidious and Talzin's battle allowing Maul to cheapshot him with the force.

In addition, Maul's offensive efforts were incapable of penetrating even TPM Kenobi's guard

Maul's savage prowess with two blades was not enough to defeat Obi-Wan's single-bladed weapon

Ultimate Star Wars

Yes, Maul improved by TCW. However Bane also improved beyond even Zannah's imagining by DoE so, the comparison is valid.

Likewise Bane's offense was suficient to overwhelm DoE Zannah. Who had fended off both his Orbalisk incanation and a BM amped weapons master before improving vastly

So Bane should have a comfortable dueling advantage of Maul and by extension Savage.

In short, Bane is significantly more powerful than the brothers combined and holds the advantage in dueling via speed and skill as well.

Bane solos

PLEASE RE-READ THE PREFACE!!

And have a nice day

@greysentinel365: But wait they cry!!!!!!!

Stahp now, plz!

Nexus or not, Bane is very powerful, and I don't think that people give him the credit he deserves. I have no idea how to compare him to Savage power wise, but he would definitely have more knowledge and control.

There is a panel in the Death Sentence comic issue that comes after the one that you use, and it is of Savage alone using Force Rage to blow everyone away, including his brother. I'm not saying this is comparable to what Bane did, but I'm adding it just to add a photo of Savage using this ability. Obviously he had no control here.

Why would we not consider PoD Bane?

Now compared to DoE

He opened with a series of two-handed overhead chops, using his great height to bring his blade hacking down at her from above. She easily blocked each blow, but the momentum of the crushing impact caused her to stagger back, throwing her off balance.

Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil

He was faster than she could ever have imagined, and he was using new sequences and unfamiliar moves he had never revealed during their practice sessions.

So from this we can see at a bare minimum that Bane is faster than Zannah ever could have imagined, which would include their fight when encased in orbalisks.

I'm not sure how the first DoE quote shows that Bane is more powerful when compared to the first RoT quote, and as to the second DoE quote, could it be that she was surprised that he still had much speed after what he'd been through having the orbalisks removed? I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm just asking for your thoughts on a different perspective.

While using physical augmentation as a gauge for ones power is a tricky proposition on it's own. This in conjunction with Bane's accumulated knowledge (and therefore power) points to Bane being magnitudes more powerful than the incarnation which performed a feat equivalent to the brothers combined power.

This along with his lighting provides a comfortable edge over the two brothers in this area. Allowing him to incapacitate either with a blast or bolt should they manage to pressure him.

You make a great point with the first paragraph, and I wish it was one that more fans would take into consideration. I don't exactly agree with your second paragraph about lightning, though. First, I don't think that his lightning would incapacitate either of them, Maul for sure, and second, they can deflect lightning with their lightsabers.

Considering this is from a BM amped Faralla's perception. It obviously puts forth that Bane speed is considerable. Especially when put in the comparison of that General Grievous was known for striking at such speeds. Likewise Maul has only ever managed to stalemate Grievous in sabers.

Likewise in their second duel (despite it taking place on Dathomir where Maul would have been amped) Maul only managed a stalemate again until Grievous was distracted by Sidious and Talzin's battle allowing Maul to cheapshot him with the force.

re First Duel: Bane does have incredible speed, but so does Maul. There are many instances of his speed in the EU and I guess canon (not stopping to think about it), and the panel example you give from SoD doesn't show us a stalemated Maul. Maul had to leave. If he had not left, then all his troops would have been destroyed. It was a judgement call. If anything, you can look at that scene and realize how quickly he destroys four of GG's magnaguards and then goes for GG being able to immediately block GG's strikes.

re Second Duel: Did you read the same comic as I did? (just kidding) Maul starts their duel by jumping up and then cutting off one of GGs arm, and that is when they both stopped to look at what was going on with Talzin (as Tyranus) and Sidious. M then turns back to GG and Force pushes him off the cliff, which is something I wish Force users would do more often. Cheap shot or not, M was done with GG and just pushed him out of the way. If anything, I think your example shows us how fast M is because GG was facing M when their duel began. GG did not have enough time to prepare for M as M immediately cut off one of his arms.

I've seen a few posts of people giving speed feats of other characters to disparage Maul, but they don't seem to look up his accolades or put them into appropriate context. Speaking of out of context, here's an example given above:

In addition, Maul's offensive efforts were incapable of penetrating even TPM Kenobi's guard

"Maul's savage prowess with two blades was not enough to defeat Obi-Wan's single-bladed weapon"

Ultimate Star Wars

To place the above into context, Qui-Gon had already been killed, and Obi-Wan was enraged enough to open himself to the Dark Side. He allowed his rage to consume him and attacked Maul with a ferocity almost equal to Maul's, but the difference was that even though Maul did not defeat him, he did defend himself until Kenobi wore himself down. Maul maintained his stamina and strength and then forced Kenobi over the edge of the reactor. He's a 22 yo guy who never expected a Jedi to give in to the Dark Side even if briefly. It's discussed in the book and is self explanatory. All that said, I'm not saying Maul is faster than Bane, nor am I saying he is slower. I have no idea how to compare them speed wise. Maul could move so fast that he wasn't' visible on a holorecording. (Shadow Hunter) I'm sure it was the same for Bane, but to make like Maul is as slow as only coming to a stalemate GG is a bit harsh, even though stalemating him is an accomplishment for any Force user.

Yes, Maul improved by TCW. However Bane also improved beyond even Zannah's imagining by DoE so, the comparison is valid.

Likewise Bane's offense was suficient to overwhelm DoE Zannah. Who had fended off both his Orbalisk incanation and a BM amped weapons master before improving vastly

So Bane should have a comfortable dueling advantage of Maul and by extension Savage.

In short, Bane is significantly more powerful than the brothers combined and holds the advantage in dueling via speed and skill as well.

I'm not sure about this, and I'm not sure which Maul we should be using. We know from George Lucas that midichlorians are in cells, and therefore, the more cells there are in an organism, then the more midiclorians there are in the same organism, which means that organism will or should have a stronger connection with the Force. Maul was cut in half, and therefore lost approx half his Force potential. He still became stronger in the Force as did Vader. I'm not sure which Bane we are using in this match up just the same as I'm not sure which Maul we are using. It's back to the Raw Power vs Experience debate we find in many of these battles, and I'm not sure how to answer this particular one because of not being given better parameters. Regardless of what most people think, Maul was intended to be Sidious' worthy successor, and according to Bane's own RoT, that tells us that Maul was to be pretty powerful. So, is it an older Bane that fights an older Maul, or younger, or ....whom?

BTW, what is "morals on" for Sith?

Bane solos

PLEASE RE-READ THE PREFACE!!

Your preface states the brothers win the majority, but how so if Bane solos? Either way, I think you mostly gave a good argument.