Darquesse (SP) vs Sauron (LoTR)

Continuing my theme of Skulduggery Pleasent books, i'm stepping it up. Battle to the death, the areana is England but they can leave. No prep- random encounter. Darquesse stays in her form, she also has her necromancy ring and powers. She also has access to white energy. Sauron is in his physical form with a hammer and the One ring. No morals- not like these two has morals anyway.

@leo-343:

Actually if both are at full power then Sauron destroys her.

What's Sauron's best feat?

Darquesse. Pure magic + superior physical stats + of course, molecule manipulation.

@leo-343:

Sauron's mind manipulation will prevent Darquesse from attacking and boom, he splatters her brains thus negating healing and instantly killing her.It was said that destruction of her brain kills her. Also with mind manipulation, it would be easy for someone like Sauron since a bunch of human psychics managed to dupe her. Also at core Darquesse is STILL a mortal while Sauron already has Maia/angel heritage albeit being a fallen one. Sauron possesses reality warping, inhuman strength, speed, matter control and durability, mind control, matter control, divine power, elemental abilities, necromancy, illusions, shape shifting and combat experience. Darquesse will be her usual dumb self and allow him to take a hit, thinking that she could survive it and laugh at him. Two words-She won't.

@

@leo-343:

Prove that Darquesse can atomise sentient beings that are not flesh and blood but merely a spirit taking on a physical image. Seeing as how Vile resisted her molecular manipulation, Sauron could easily do the same if not laugh it off. Illusion Sauron will allow her to think that she's winning while the real Sauron smashes her head in from behind. Also Sauron took part in the song of creation and aided the Valar in it and he's also been known to tank a continent/island busting attack in the Silmarillion. Even if Darquesse manages to defeat his physical form, his form of fire and shadow is still pretty powerful seeing as how Galadriel only managed to banish it, with Galadriel becoming greatly weakened afterwards. Mind you, Galadriel was a powerful elf (Not sure if first age or what). Also the OP stated that Sauron was in physical form with one ring and a hammer/mace but he never stated which version of Sauron it was. If its movie Sauron then Darquesse may win against his physical form but against his incorporeal form, I'm not so sure. Overall Sauron has more advantages for a full power Sauron could bust a continent casually like any other Maia. Can Darquesse slice through spirits like Narsil could? NO!Honestly what are you going to spout next? Darquesse can beat Lucifer? Or Darquesse can beat Morgoth?

Darquesse is pretty beast, but I think it is very hard to quantify Lotr characters, but Sauron at his peak did get killed by Men (or his physical form at least). I'm now expert though.

As for Darquesse when she fought Vile she didn't have her black flames ability and comprehensive matter manipulation, her most quantifiable feat for energy projection at that time was merely enough to turn stone to dust but this was very casual and playfull, whereas a critically weakened Darquesse latter on had energy projection supposedly on par with a miniature nuclear bomb, enough to destroy a partion of a mid-small city.

She was disappointingly weak to telepaths though, I doubt she could defeat someone as high-tier as Prof. X or even Jean Grey or Emma Frost but her resistance is impressive nonetheless.

His reaction feats I found strange too, one minute she was casually evading two Cleavers working together while standing still right between them (Cleavers having superhuman speed) while maintaining a conversation and reacting to helicopter fire and the next Skulduggery was able to empty his gun into her forehead before she could react.

@leo-343:

Sauron > Remnants

Black flames = Has only been shown to burn mortals...Prove it affects a divine being that tanks continent busting attacks like Sauron. We've seen Gandalf resisting the Balrog's fire and shrugging off Saruman's fire and it was clear that Sauron was more powerful than Gandalf so black flames are ruled out.

Molecular manipulation? Prove it works on beings that are divine spirits with merely a physical form as an image or else saying that it affects everything is a no-limits fallacy. Its speculated that Darquesse gets killed by the Faceless Ones and they do not possess a physical form in their dimension so non-physical Sauron may also be able to kill her.

Again, Darquesse wasn't shown to fare well against mind-manipulation and trickery, something that Sauron excelled above even his master Morgoth.

Darquesse's death was only theorised, not confirmed and was implied to happen off panel, The Faceless Ones might have had vessels in their dimension in which they do combat and they might have tried to possess her outright, which would be bad for them I'd imagine. This means that yes, Darquesse's theoretical superiority to a Faceless One might not necessarily mean she could harm its spirit form, but of course it is possible.

If I remember correctly she only harmed Remnants after she forced them to possess her.

Oh, and Darquesse though heavily weakened was considered superior to a Faceless One even if she acted like she was even more invincible than usual.

What is Sauron's best mental manipulation feat? Darquesse has resisted psychic interrogation form a telepath, barely resisted psychic torture from six telepaths (with the power to torture someone until they are crippled with pain) while they got her by surprise and before her exponential greater powers in books 9 (although as soon as she withstood the initial onslaught she crushed their minds easily). She was only tricked in DotL because she was weakened significantly, attacked with a passive illusion, taken completely by surprise and the four telepaths were powerful and united. Even then it was a close thing.

@leo-343:

I like how you dance around my points and avoid the fact that it took a lucky blow from the spirit-harming sword Narsil to hurt him and it slashed off his RING finger which contained most of his power. If it cut off any other part of him, he may have shrugged it off. Give proof that he was harmed by non-enchanted weapons specially designed to combat HIM. Can remnants use telekinesis? NO. Can remnants corrupt people just by talking and can they become beings of fire and shadow? NO. Remnants are weak in their non-physical form and they die if the body they possess, dies whilst Sauron's essence easily survives the destruction of his physical form. Stop comparing puny little slivers of evil to a Maia who brough terror upon middle earth. They are completely different things. As for molecular manipulation, there has been NO cases of it in LOTR so saying that it would affect him just because there has been no cases of it in LOTR is a no-limits fallacy because Sauron is again, a divine Maia as stated in the Silmarillion and the books. Whats the point of making the Valar and the Maiar if they have the same traits of humans or objects made by humans? Can a human tank a continent busting attack directly at their physical form? NO. Sauron did. Can humans or bricks spill seas and destroy mountains casually in a second? NO. Morgoth did. So get your facts straight boy and stop saying that molecular manipulation would affect a being like Sauron when all it did was affect a bunch of sorcerers with NO magical resistance. Did her magic work on these creatures in the caves? NO. Were those creatures human in anyway or similar to a rock? NO. Again, saying that it could affect Sauron when it couldn't affect a beast that drank magical water is a no-limits fallacy. As for Sauron's attack, my usual argument- Mind manipulation (which he excels at) and bashing her head in when she's tricked.

@ghetsis Now I am less knowledgeable in Lotr lore by far than you, and refrain from making a judgement because of this but:

1) Simply calling Sauron a god or agent of worldwide terror is irrelevant in the face of impressive feats for Darquesse, also the reverse is also true that Darquesse's spirit has survived the death of it's vessel, although she had very little possessive power in this form, she is considered superior than the Faceless Ones gods and she represented the ultimate evil that has ever threatened the SP world (and this is a world where a dozen possible threats can emerge in a single night).

2) You do not need confirmation that a power works on a being, otherwise I could claim I am immune to TP and therefore stomps Prof. X. We should compare Darquesse's ability to deal soul-destroying attacks and Sauron's ability to withstand them. Personally I would consider her black flames very powerful and capable of destroying a Faceless One with difficulty.

Can any other SP fans refresh my memory: did Darquesse even display her black flames power after being seperated from Valkyrie? Anyway, Ghetsis I respect you and your Lotr knowledge, I only want to learn some of Sauron's feats and your point about Sauron's durability does need to be addressed, so lets keep it civil.

@alphaq: Actually you do need confirmation that a certain power works on a being. Just say a bullet can easily wound a human but saying that it can have the same deadly effect on a being who can tank a continent-busting attack is preposterous and far-fetched. Personally her black fire has only been seen to wound a mortal being of flesh and blood who could not survive without flesh and blood. Now compare the durability and the level of power of that mortal sorcerer to a Faceless One, an eldritch abomination god that is capable of killing people with simple telekinesis without much effort as shown with Bliss and the necromancers. Just the sheer sight of a non-physical Faceless One drives people insane. Also remnants=/= Faceless Ones.Remnants can't do zilch without inhabiting a host while a Faceless One in its non-physical form is deadly let alone in a physical form so kindly stop assuming that Darquesse could harm a Faceless One attempting to take over her body that easily for the power level between remnants and Faceless Ones differ by an immense margin. Considered superior? Until we see her fate, the words of the Skeleton detective will be taken with a pinch of salt. Ultimate evil? Ha! Mevolent and Vile from the alternate dimension would like to digress. Darquesse has only faced normal sorcerers so of course she'd win whilst Sauron has faced Maia like Gandalf the Grey and defeated him, deceived Saruman and Galadriel only managed to banish him for a bit. If those same elementals and energy users went up against Sauron? They'd get curbstomped. Again, I shall say: Trick Darquesse, smash her brains in. If four normal psychics could do it then Sauron could pull it off easily Her feats are inconsistent anyway. One moment, she was resisting the sense wardens, next minute she gets duped by four psychics.

@ghetsis Yes, but just because someone is durable to one type of attack does not necessarily mean that they are durable to another, like how Gandalf a being of immense spiritual fortitude had his arm broken in The Battle of Five Armies by (presumably) mere physical attacks.

Were the attacks that Sauron withstood magical or soul-orientated in nature? I mean do these feats actually explicitly display spiritual durability? If so I would be happy to agree that Darquesse would lose or possibly stalemate seeing as she would have no way to harm him ultimately. Actually can you tell me is it actually possible to kill Sauron in the Lotr verse? I seem to remember he was just neutralized and not killed.

If I remember correctly Sauron and Gandalf had potent persuasive powers, would you consider Sauron's abilities to be on par or even superior? How would he compare to conventional telepaths, like could he outright dominate strong-willed people?

Out of interest would you consider Argeddion to be a better match seeing as he had telepathic feats (repressing Darquesse and having that pretty underwhelming control of the four scientists, one of which was a Sensitive, and reading people's thoughts, visiting people in dreams)?

I agree she couldn't repel a Faceless One's possession easily, she would probably have to strain herself to the max but she should be able to do it. And if I remember correctly The Faceless Ones have no feats in their spirit form, and if you have the magical ability you can retain your sanity while looking at them, as The Ancients were able to gaze upon them, hell even Valkyrie was able to glimpse upon them, presumably do to her Ancient heritage.

The Faceless Ones are pretty much an unknown however, they could be more powerful or less powerful than Sauron as far as we know. Skulduggery's word is the best way that we can place them in the SP hierarchy, and he should be trustworthy seeing as he is the one of the few living (technically) who experienced their power first-hand and spent a year with them.

Yes, she is not the ultimate evil, but had the potential to wreak inter-dimensional destruction something Vile or Mevolent could not boast of. If anything Mevolent's master The Nameless One was the ultimate evil, in character anyway as far as we can tell.

Darquesse has faced powerful enemies who had strengths Gandalf and Galadriel lacked like Vile, Mevolent, Argeddion, the supercharged sorcerers, Mevolent and his two generals armed with the magic-sucker, Kitana's gang, invulnerable Valkyrie, Godkiller wielding Dead Men, The Glitter Girls, The Faceless Ones, supercharged Vile and Melancholia and the Gnarl. Wetter or not any of them would beat the characters you mentioned I have no idea.

While yes she did have being tricked going aganist her the difference of Darquesse taken by suprise telepathically and her resisting is the the difference between barely withstanding an assault and disabling minds with frightening ease. As I said she was exponentially weakened, shown a passive illusion, taken completely by surprise and it was four united and powerful telepaths, and it was still very close. It might depend on how Sauron tries to persuade her, she would naturally resist authority figures, if he simply tried to tell her what to do she would resist but perhaps he could charm her subtly, catching her off guard and she is pretty impulsive anyway.

Overall I just want to learn Sauron's feats and am grateful you took the time to respond, please tell me if you have no interest in continuing because you find this tedious or wasteful because I don't want to bother you with unwanted notifications. Thanks, and good day.

@alphaq:

As I stated in my earliest post, Darquesse stands little to no chance against a full powered Sauron because an unrestricted Maia attack wrecks an entire continent hence why Gandalf was restricted from using his full powers. As for me being uptight, I just want an honest estimate and assession of Darquesse powers, not no-limits fallacy answers. I hate it when people w**nk their favorite characters and ignore what the opposition is capable of. Honestly I've seen people ridiculous enough to think that Voldemort can beat Galactus or even Dr. Strange. Their reason? OMG Avada Kedavra kills anything and can't be blocked...hurr hurr. Alucard fanw**nkers are one of the worst though.

@ghetsis Harry Potter/Voldemort/Dumbledore fanw**kers are the worst, some people just watch the movies/read the books and think they are worldly enough to say the those characters beats (insert name here) because the movies and books did a good job putting them on a pedestal.

Thanks for responding, yes if Sauron oneshots without giving her a moment to focus then any of her abilities are irrelevant to his continent busting attacks as she would be obliterated. I'm not forgetting a horde of vampires were sufficient to offset her enough to not be able to use her magic attacks sufficiently, she is very beatable.

Anyways thanks for responding, your input is appreciated.

I knew book versions were fairly strong compared to the movies but... wow O_O

Maiar didn't destroy numenor, the Valar did. The best feats of any maiar are blasting open doors and regenerating from island busting attacks. Anyways, the books state that Darquesse's black fire burns souls, not just physical forms.

'"There,' Darquesse said.

'Did you … did you just turn him into a chair?'

'Yes I did,' said Darquesse, grinning. 'Atoms are atoms. It’s all about what you do with them and how you arrange them. Man gets turned into a chair. Chair gets turned into a glass of water. It’s still Nestor, though. He’s still there. I haven’t killed him.'

'You turned him into furniture.'

'It’s just another form to take.'

'I’m gonna have to disagree with you on that one, Darquesse. He’s dead. You killed him. Where are his memories? His personality? Where are all the things that define him?'

Darquesse tilted her head. 'None of that stuff defines us, Billy-Ray. Memories can be lost. Personalities can be changed. Who we are, our true essence, is our energy. If I wanted to kill him, I’d just do it.'

She clicked her fingers and the chair was incinerated in a burst of black flame.

'There,' said Darquesse. 'Happy now? Nestor is dead. Every last trace of him. His atoms, his energy – gone. He can’t be brought back now. That’s how you kill someone, Billy-Ray. You wipe them from existence.'"

-The Dying of the Light, chapter 13

Thus, it does not matter if sauron can regenerate from an island busting attack, because darquesse's black fire will still kill him

Val

Ghetsis ownin' tbh.

Woah, what a bad*ss! She turned a guy with no magical resistance into a chair! Woaaaahhhh (Sarcasm). Now lets try it on a guy WITH heavy magical resistance that can also blow you to pieces with one attack after you've realised you FAILED to turn him into a chair. Darquesse would have been kicked to the curb if she faced a sorcerer near or of the same caliber due to her arrogance and lack of skill. Sauron's weaker form has tangoed in mind-games with SARUMAN, fought against Gandalf and Galadriel (Sauron faked his defeat with Galadriel if you read the book). Darquesse's fire has only been shown to affect a mortal with NO magical resistance. That same mortal could have been shredded with a NORMAL sword whilst they went to the trouble of obtaining a SPECIFIC sword designed to combat Sauron instead of some random butter knife. I am tired of no-limits fallacies and I swear Darquesse fanw**nkers are almost as bad as HP ones. Anyway I wasn't exactly sure who caused the fall of Numenor so thanks for telling me. Also Osse raised Numenor from the bottom of the ocean and he was only a Maia so that gives you some info on their power.

Maybe he means that I'm a better debater since I use logic instead of no-limits fallacies.

@leo-343: You know there's this lovely thing known as the Darquesse buster...What does his name start with again. Oh thats right! "M" for Mevolent. Darquesse could have clicked her fingers and exploded him in the alternate dimension but what did she do? She charged and got magic sucked by him! She's all raw power and no skill, NO skill. She got pwned by him the first time but she cheated death by re-attaching her head (that again was power not skill), second time she got magic sucked by him. A strategist like Sauron could overcome her easily by exploiting her lack of strategy. Honestly, you look to Darquesse as though she's some god whilst I am fully aware of Sauron's limits. Against beings like Thanos and Darkseid, Sauron would potentially lose but against Darquesse? If Darquesse had MORE time to get MORE powerful then I'd agree she'd defeat him but at their most powerful existing versions, she'd get whacked.

lol sauron lost to a hunting dog and was defeated by a normal weapon. Yes, narsil was a non-magical blade, albeit a well-forged one. Sauron has never shown any magic resistance either.

@dunedain314:

....Pftt ha ha ha ha!! You nearly got me there troll. Narsil was non-magical? Keh heh heh!

Huan was the hound of Valinor sent by the Valar and Sauron fought him in the form of a werewolf instead of his usual form. The reason Sauron failed to defeat the hound was because Huan was destined to be killed by the greatest werewolf and not by Sauron hence why he lost. I like how you ignore the fact Sauron survived the destruction of Numenor.

Mairon.

@ghetsis If I remember correctly Darquesse's ability to fluidly use her powers were significantly reduced after she was separated from Valkyrie, we have an instance at the start of DotL where she turns two Cleaver blades (which are magic resistant) with a glance, but after the separation she was able to be held at Spectre-point by Valkyrie and was described as having to focus to use her mater manipulation. To me this means she needs some respite at this part of the book, if we take her at the start of DotL she would have been able to disarm or kill Mevolent without any hesitation.

She is fairly skilled, she often focuses or enjoying a fight more than seeking a speedy outcome but there are multiple instances of her simply killing with no foreplay whatsoever, frankly we should assume she is serious and not playful in this fight.

What we need to do is get a quantifiable measure of Sauron's spiritual reserves and magic resistance and compare then to Darquesse's black flames ability. She was not strained when she destroyed that mook's soul so it stands to reason she could simply up the intensity of the attack a little or continue to keep the attack up for the length of time it takes for Sauron's soul to last. She has broken magic resistance before but also failed to do so against the Gnarl.

Darquesse.

@alphaq:

Yup, she failed to 'magikz' the Gnarl so she had to rely on physical force. She may have to do the same thing with Sauron.

@ghetsis Yep, but I doubt the Gnarl could resist her black flames but an argument could be made either way and I guess we'll never know. She did show good skill and resourcefulness in that fight as well.

Just out of curiosity how would you say that Sauron's spiritual strength compares to that of an average soul in the Lotr universe? Obviously it's hard to put a figure on these things but there are some universes where souls are quite weak (SP verse souls are really only middling amounts of energy tbh). Like in some verses souls are just about the weakest things ever, with only a small human ritual necessary to bind them but in others souls are basically metaphysical fusion reactors capable of warping reality.

Like if the average soul in Lotr was greater than the norm in SP I would still say that Darquesse could destroy it because they use different magic systems. So, essentially, if you had to hazard a guess how much more 'soul' would Sauron have? A thousand times? A million? It's useful for gauging his resistance.

@alphaq:

Well its hard to say. Morgoth's essence could not be destroyed by even the Valar/archangels even when he was weakened and chained by them and Sauron at his peak was stated to equal Morgoth when he was weak and the Valar are no joke either. I mean the Valar bust continents, create oceans, constellations, valleys and create regions for breakfast so yeah his essence or 'soul' would be very tough.

@ghetsis Okey-dokey, thanks for the info.

Darquesse.

@ghetsis lol if anduril is magical and sauron was cut by it, what does that say about sauron's magic resistance?

@dunedain314:

It was a pretty powerful magical sword given its ability to cut through things that are ethereal, intangible or dead aka. spirits hence why Sauron was affected. They didn't get any other magical sword for the purpose.

the movie is not canon. Plus, they brought narsil to intimidate sauron, not to fight him

Still Sauron. Sauron is the master of mind games, even surpassing his master Morgoth/ Satan of LOTR in it as Morgoth relied more on direct force. Sauron could trick Darquesse into thinking she was winning by planting an illusion Sauron getting defeated while the real Sauron splits her into her composite atoms and laughs at her stupidity. And don't you dare say that she would resist it since a bunch of normal psykers 'took her by surprise' (yes note the quotation marks because they didn't really take her by surprise) and planted a false reality in her mind, letting her believe that she was beating everyone and had more power than she actually had as stated by Skulduggery. Sauron would trick her rather easily. Sauron wins.

@ghetsis: I understand your point dude, but just to know: How's her resistance to being transformed, driven insane, or having her body and soul disintegrated?

@allanvdsouza: Not sure since Darquesse hasn't shown feats of resistance in these areas since no one has tried it on her yet but I think someone of Sauron's caliber with full power could easily drive her insane, transform her or disintegrate her body before enslaving her soul. Sauron has a habit of enslaving ghosts to become his servants.

@leo-343: Tanith clearly called Remnants 'pathetic incomplete slivers of evil' and regarded them less than even spirits. She knows what she is talking about because she was possessed by one at the time so thats the remnant itself talking. I mean if the remnant itself is regarding itself as a pathetic sliver of evil, then you know its not bluffing. Remnants aren't that impressive since they can't even possess the dead or reflections while wraiths from LOTR probably could. I'm sure her black flames only remove the person from physical existence while their souls are in another plane of existence after being separated. Sauron however is like 'Lolno, I'm using you as my slave now and he gets himself another servant aka. the ghost'. To affect the soul after the death of its physical body is very impressive. As for matter manipulation, I don't see anything she has that can beat Sauron.