" Team 1 for two reasons: 1. Darkseid >>>>>> Thanos. 2. Vulcan - while overrated - did show that he was capable of manipulating magic. So there goes Zatanna. "
Darkseid isn't better than Thanos. A specially not when it comes to prep.
@czarny_samael: yes i agree that darkseid isn't more than thanos, i see them as almost equals with thanos having a slight edge. But team 1 definately wins because zatanna will be put down too quickly.
why are darkseid and thanos not equals there powers are almost the same, the display the same sorta physical power with thanos to thor and hulk and darkseid to superman and lobo, only real difference is darkseid in his true form could hold planets inbetween his fingers as long as he doesnt use a boom tube to go to new earth but he can also do near anything he wants outside of nigh omnipotent effects, i mean matter, energy and soul manipulation, entity creation, genetic manipulation, energy enhanced strikes, force fields, energy blasts, self-teleportation, can move objects and people threw time and space, time travel, control boom tubes, telepathy, telekinesis, possession, mind control, mass ressurection, erasing beings, shown cosmic awareness, can create avatars, animation, matter creation, than of course the flight, massive healing factor and his physical power and i know im missing alot of his powers still but how many of these do normal thanos cover ?
" @czarny_samael: yes i agree that darkseid isn't more than thanos, i see them as almost equals with thanos having a slight edge. But team 1 definately wins because zatanna will be put down too quickly. "
Thanos has much better durability, while DS has better ofensive powers. IMO Thanos is better in prep (he was a real god after all).
" @Shadowglenn: why are darkseid and thanos not equals there powers are almost the same, the display the same sorta physical power with thanos to thor and hulk and darkseid to superman and lobo, only real difference is darkseid in his true form could hold planets inbetween his fingers as long as he doesnt use a boom tube to go to new earth but he can also do near anything he wants outside of nigh omnipotent effects, i mean matter, energy and soul manipulation, entity creation, genetic manipulation, energy enhanced strikes, force fields, energy blasts, self-teleportation, can move objects and people threw time and space, time travel, control boom tubes, telepathy, telekinesis, possession, mind control, mass ressurection, erasing beings, shown cosmic awareness, can create avatars, animation, matter creation, than of course the flight, massive healing factor and his physical power and i know im missing alot of his powers still but how many of these do normal thanos cover ? "
Thanos also has matter and energy manipulation and almost all powers that You've mentioned. And Thanos survived shots from Galactus, Omega and full fight with Odin.
@czarny_samael: can you list what powers he has that are the same from which ones hes got
controlling portals matter manipulation energy manipulation energy enhanced strikes energy blasts force fields soul manipulation entity creation genetic manipulation self teleportation teleporting other objects and people to and from him threw time and space time travel telepathy telekinesis possession mind control mass resurection erasing beings cosmic awareness avatar creation animation matter creation
we can exlude flight and the others because they both have them but can you just list the ones thanos has without using amps or tech
controlling portals - Thanos depends on his tech. matter manipulation - yes energy manipulation - yes energy enhanced strikes -yes energy blasts - yes force fields -yes soul manipulation - not sure entity creation - What is it? genetic manipulation - this is pretty much mm self teleportation - yes teleporting other objects and people to and from him threw time and space -time, not, space yes time travel - no telepathy -yes telekinesis -yes possession -yes mind control - yes mass resurection - no (probably) erasing beings - no cosmic awareness - yes avatar creation - hmmm... probably no animation -yes matter creation - probably no
On the other hand Thanos showed:
TP fights with most powerfull beings in existance Survivng the best shots from Galaxy-Buster Resisting high powerfull reality manipulation (Lord Chaos and Master Order, when he was coming to In-Betweener) Taking full blast from Cosmic Cube Reforming from nothing
In battles, only feats counts, not who has more powers. And Thanos fought with people much more powerfull than Darkseid. DS's OB won't kill him nor defeat him. The real battle between them will happen in Astral Plane IMO. And since Thanos can shield his mind from 3 powerfull telepaths at once without any effort... I don't see this fight ends in different way as a Thanos win. DS durability will fall faster than Thanos'.
entity creation is creating living beings to mainly be his minions and there normally really powerful and genetic manipulation i ment de-evolving beings which i dont think is matter manipulation unless someone who has that besides darkseid has ever accomplished that to show there the same, and how does he survive simply being put into the end of time thats sorta BFR so with no BFR, de-evolving him or erasing than thanos would probalby win
zatanna solos with prep, magic is too useful in a fight like this where prep is involved
This would imply that she could handle people like Seid and Vulcan alone, which she has never been able to do to that calibre, unless cited proof can be provided of such a feat existing concurrently. Feel free to quote me some extreme high-ends through.
@professorrespect: she has effortlessly frozen Despero already without the need for prep, and she has demonstrated enough raw power to summon Spectre. a magic user of her caliber having prep means she can literally do whatever she wants in this fight pretty much.
@professorrespect: she has effortlessly frozen Despero already without the need for prep
Yep, first feat I'd guess you would bring up, always the most wanked. That's a "high end" and something she doesn't do often, especially given that the whole Virtue/Vice storyline introduced her as a plot weapon to finish off Despero, given how everyone else was occupied at the time.
and she has demonstrated enough raw power to summon Spectre
One being able to summon something doesn't require much "raw power" at all. Any fodder magician can summon elder gods with the right stuff in place.
a magic user of her caliber having prep means she can literally do whatever she wants
I asked for cited example of her in prep, not "well she can do anything so ehhh" which doesn't really work as a proof whatsoever.
@professorrespect: she has also contended with a Spectre level being in Zorr.
additionally you trying to discredit her feat against Despero by calling it a high end doesnt work because as a character Zatanna’s powers are tied to her self confidence. it’s weakened her in the past so badly she could only control the basic elements for a while. at her peak confidence she is capable of doing her high ends, this isn’t weakened Zatanna in this fight.
she recently in rebirth forced Mister Mxyzptlk to banish himself. it’s sufficient to say he is far strong than anyone involved in this fight. Zatanna isn’t on his level but the fact that her magic even worked on him is a feat in itself.
also the Spectre feat you again tried to discredit is null and void because Spectre himself shows respect to the amount of power she wields and calls summoning him and the other mystics “rather impressive”….so what you said is disputed by on panel evidence from the character himself.
@professorrespect: she has also contended with a Spectre level being in Zorr
Zorr beat her ass as soon as they met and she only got the advantage after he was playing with his food too much, and she didn't even beat him by herself, she needed the Seven and time travel.
additionally you trying to discredit her feat against Despero by calling it a high end
(which it is)
doesnt work because as a character Zatanna’s powers are tied to her self confidence
Doesn't matter whatsoever given that's a retroactive thing. Gladiator has the exact same issue and he still has terrible low and high ends.
she recently in rebirth forced Mister Mxyzptlk to banish
....so can anyone? Mxy's powers work that way.
also the Spectre feat you again tried to discredit is null and void because Spectre himself shows respect to the amount of power she wields and calls summoning him and the other mystics “rather impressive”
And this "rather impressive" shit can be done by any fodder mystic. Regular people have summoned elder gods in the past, doesn't make them as powerful kek
@professorrespect: you don’t seem to want to debate at all other than calling the feats im giving invalid. Spectre being impressed by her power is more than enough to say she is a highly valuable member of her team especially with prep. Spectre has never been impressed by a “fodder mystic” so the feats don’t scale.
additionally her being able to contend with Zor is usable here because it shows with a little extra time she is capable of affecting a multiversal entity…..she literally has prep here so you trying to say she couldn’t immediately contend isn’t relevant because she doesn’t have to here either. she quite literally has prep.
if you want to actually have a discussion instead of just saying no to everything and finding a way to lowball the feats, then i’d be happy to participate, but you came into this thread with your mind made up, it’s very obvious.
@professorrespect: you don’t seem to want to debate at all other than calling the feats im giving invalid
Where did I state they were "invalid"? I'm providing missing context. I'm fine with high ends, but I'm afraid only debating with them (and also then not providing context!) is rather faulty, my apologies.
Spectre being impressed by her power is more than enough to say she is a highly valuable member
Spectre was impressed because she summoned him. That's it. You act like there was something else I was missing. This has nothing to do with the fight either, or what she can actually do in terms of concrete prep options (which, again, you have given zero concrete examples of prepping)
Again, any half-decent mystic can summon Elder Gods and whatnot with the right materials. Even one hit wonders like Count Crystal could.
additionally her being able to contend with Zor is usable here because it shows with a little extra time she is capable of affecting a multiversal entity
Nope! She got her ass handed and Zor lost due to overconfidence and outside support. Last post covered that pretty well.
if you want to actually have a discussion instead of just saying no to everything
If you can provide a consistent basis for your characters by providing cited and contextualised examples, as well as debating with a little bit more than high-endism, sure.
@professorrespect: you don’t seem to want to debate at all other than calling the feats im giving invalid
Where did I state they were "invalid"? I'm providing missing context. I'm fine with high ends, but I'm afraid only debating with them (and also then not providing context!) is rather faulty, my apologies.
You've removed her best feats and tried to explain away all of her high ends. Even Spectre calling her power impressive which has no real context. He simply was impressed by her strength plain and simple. If you have the praise of Spectre you are more than capable of contending with the people present here.
Spectre being impressed by her power is more than enough to say she is a highly valuable member
Spectre was impressed because she summoned him. That's it. You act like there was something else I was missing. This has nothing to do with the fight either, or what she can actually do in terms of concrete prep options (which, again, you have given zero concrete examples of prepping)
Again, any half-decent mystic can summon Elder Gods and whatnot with the right materials. Even one hit wonders like Count Crystal could.
If Spectre thinks making this gathering come together on a whim "easily" is impressive than it is sorry.
additionally her being able to contend with Zor is usable here because it shows with a little extra time she is capable of affecting a multiversal entity
Nope! She got her ass handed and Zor lost due to overconfidence and outside support. Last post covered that pretty well.
Zatanna contended without the "outside support" he was attacking her and she countered everything he threw at her and was surviving his attacks. She didn't win on her own, and Zor did lose due to hubris but that doesn't change the fact that her magic was capable of affecting him. I have never implied the fight was her winning, all I said was affecting a multiversal entity with magic on more than one occasion is impressive.
if you want to actually have a discussion instead of just saying no to everything
If you can provide a consistent basis for your characters by providing cited and contextualised examples, as well as debating with a little bit more than high-endism, sure.
There isn't a single debater on the site that debates with low ends....Everyone brings up their characters best feats, you trying to discredit them by saying "oh well those are her best they're invalid" despite me posting 4 instances of relative consistency (stopping Despero, Spectre being impressed by her power, affecting Mr Mxy with magic, and affecting Zor with magic). All of these feats are usable, you can post her low ends if you want, but I personally believe feats are usable if they are replicated 3-4 times and these fit into that category.
@professorrespect: you don’t seem to want to debate at all other than calling the feats im giving invalid
Where did I state they were "invalid"? I'm providing missing context. I'm fine with high ends, but I'm afraid only debating with them (and also then not providing context!) is rather faulty, my apologies.
You've removed her best feats and tried to explain away all of her high ends
Her "best" feats are getting beat up by a multiversal being and beating Despero? That's it? Seems kinda shit in that case, I thought she could do anything with her power set?
Spectre being impressed by her power is more than enough to say she is a highly valuable member
Spectre was impressed because she summoned him. That's it. You act like there was something else I was missing. This has nothing to do with the fight either, or what she can actually do in terms of concrete prep options (which, again, you have given zero concrete examples of prepping)
Again, any half-decent mystic can summon Elder Gods and whatnot with the right materials. Even one hit wonders like Count Crystal could.
If Spectre thinks making this gathering come together on a whim "easily" is impressive than it is sorry.
Terrible rebuttal. Moving on.
additionally her being able to contend with Zor is usable here because it shows with a little extra time she is capable of affecting a multiversal entity
Nope! She got her ass handed and Zor lost due to overconfidence and outside support. Last post covered that pretty well.
Zatanna contended without the "outside support
By "contended" you mean "couldn't do anything of notice while he toyed around" and then she won because of DC angels assisting her + him being insanely cocky at the time. Don't forget that her big break was just moving magic around a bit using chronological manipulation!
if you want to actually have a discussion instead of just saying no to everything
If you can provide a consistent basis for your characters by providing cited and contextualised examples, as well as debating with a little bit more than high-endism, sure.
There isn't a single debater on the site that debates with low ends
Way to get my point wrong! I never said use her low ends, but naturally you've gotten that wrong as well to make a bad point.
you trying to discredit them by saying "oh well those are her best they're invalid"
I never said that, so this is a great example of a strawman, given how it's about a point I never made in the first place and then trying to "debunk" it. Consistency is a thing.
despite me posting 4 instances of relative consistency
"4 instances" AKA garbage contextless instances that you've then conceded mostly on. Christ sake, you didn't even cite.
affecting Mr Mxy with magic
By "affecting" you mean "doing what Superman does with extra steps"? Seems a bit naff mate.
@professorrespect: you don’t seem to want to debate at all other than calling the feats im giving invalid
Where did I state they were "invalid"? I'm providing missing context. I'm fine with high ends, but I'm afraid only debating with them (and also then not providing context!) is rather faulty, my apologies.
You've removed her best feats and tried to explain away all of her high ends
Her "best" feats are getting beat up by a multiversal being and beating Despero? That's it? Seems kinda shit in that case, I thought she could do anything with her power set?
My statement was rhetorical sorry
Spectre being impressed by her power is more than enough to say she is a highly valuable member
Spectre was impressed because she summoned him. That's it. You act like there was something else I was missing. This has nothing to do with the fight either, or what she can actually do in terms of concrete prep options (which, again, you have given zero concrete examples of prepping)
Again, any half-decent mystic can summon Elder Gods and whatnot with the right materials. Even one hit wonders like Count Crystal could.
If Spectre thinks making this gathering come together on a whim "easily" is impressive than it is sorry.
Terrible rebuttal. Moving on.
Cannonical statement from multiversal entity = terrible rebuttal? Bro come on this isn't even a fun discussion if you're gunna act like this.
additionally her being able to contend with Zor is usable here because it shows with a little extra time she is capable of affecting a multiversal entity
Nope! She got her ass handed and Zor lost due to overconfidence and outside support. Last post covered that pretty well.
Zatanna contended without the "outside support
By "contended" you mean "couldn't do anything of notice while he toyed around" and then she won because of DC angels assisting her + him being insanely cocky at the time. Don't forget that her big break was just moving magic around a bit using chronological manipulation!
Being capable of doing that is a feat, and she quite literally contended in the fight. She wasn't winning, but she was contending and retaliating.
if you want to actually have a discussion instead of just saying no to everything
If you can provide a consistent basis for your characters by providing cited and contextualised examples, as well as debating with a little bit more than high-endism, sure.
There isn't a single debater on the site that debates with low ends
Way to get my point wrong! I never said use her low ends, but naturally you've gotten that wrong as well to make a bad point.
I misunderstood, you could have explained better
you trying to discredit them by saying "oh well those are her best they're invalid"
I never said that, so this is a great example of a strawman, given how it's about a point I never made in the first place and then trying to "debunk" it. Consistency is a thing.
That is nearly verbatim what you said for her fight against Despero. One of her best feats that of which she has performed on the level of a few times isn't usable because you just don't want it to be
despite me posting 4 instances of relative consistency
"4 instances" AKA garbage contextless instances that you've then conceded mostly on. Christ sake, you didn't even cite.
I never conceded. I said they were her best feats, I never said she can't replicate them like you're implying
affecting Mr Mxy with magic
By "affecting" you mean "doing what Superman does with extra steps"? Seems a bit naff mate.
Show superman affecting Mxy with magic??? You can't do that. Because he doesn't have magic. And thus your statement is therefore pointless as they are different feats. Superman tricking him and Zatanna affecting him with magic are very different as I'm sure you're aware
Let me post some of her better feats:
Capable of harming several high tiers with a single spell:
Circe calls Zatanna an "impressive weapon" again a very high tier magician being impressed by Zatanna's raw power:
Bypasses Mxy's magic resistance completely and forces him to say his name:
Freezes Despero:
Effortlessly freezes a room of high tiers
Summons Spectre and other high level magical beings:
@professorrespect: you don’t seem to want to debate at all other than calling the feats im giving invalid
Where did I state they were "invalid"? I'm providing missing context. I'm fine with high ends, but I'm afraid only debating with them (and also then not providing context!) is rather faulty, my apologies.
You've removed her best feats and tried to explain away all of her high ends
Her "best" feats are getting beat up by a multiversal being and beating Despero? That's it? Seems kinda shit in that case, I thought she could do anything with her power set?
My statement was obviously rhetorical and I'm quite sure you're aware of that.
I'm not really, the point you were making was that I've "removed her best feats" which wasn't the case etc. Not hard to have consistency!
Spectre being impressed by her power is more than enough to say she is a highly valuable member
Spectre was impressed because she summoned him. That's it. You act like there was something else I was missing. This has nothing to do with the fight either, or what she can actually do in terms of concrete prep options (which, again, you have given zero concrete examples of prepping)
Again, any half-decent mystic can summon Elder Gods and whatnot with the right materials. Even one hit wonders like Count Crystal could.
If Spectre thinks making this gathering come together on a whim "easily" is impressive than it is sorry.
Terrible rebuttal. Moving on.
Cannonical statement from multiversal entity
You know what the point is already as addressed above. Summoning beings like Spectre doesn't quantify into anything whatsoever, the best you have is hyperbolism.
additionally her being able to contend with Zor is usable here because it shows with a little extra time she is capable of affecting a multiversal entity
Nope! She got her ass handed and Zor lost due to overconfidence and outside support. Last post covered that pretty well.
Zatanna contended without the "outside support
By "contended" you mean "couldn't do anything of notice while he toyed around" and then she won because of DC angels assisting her + him being insanely cocky at the time. Don't forget that her big break was just moving magic around a bit using chronological manipulation!
Being capable of doing that is a feat
Moving time around is a feat yes, but it's a feat that never shows up again on that scale and didn't win her the fight at all.
if you want to actually have a discussion instead of just saying no to everything
If you can provide a consistent basis for your characters by providing cited and contextualised examples, as well as debating with a little bit more than high-endism, sure.
There isn't a single debater on the site that debates with low ends
Way to get my point wrong! I never said use her low ends, but naturally you've gotten that wrong as well to make a bad point.
It is your job to explain your point
Nope! I'm debating here. The point was very well acidulated in the first place: don't use high-ends all the time, provide cited and contextualised examples. Not hard, through you seem to be capable of making it so.
you trying to discredit them by saying "oh well those are her best they're invalid"
I never said that, so this is a great example of a strawman, given how it's about a point I never made in the first place and then trying to "debunk" it. Consistency is a thing.
That is nearly verbatim what you said for her fight against Despero
Nope! I said "always the most wanked. That's a "high end" and something she doesn't do often, especially given that the whole Virtue/Vice storyline introduced her as a plot weapon to finish off Despero, given how everyone else was occupied at the time." nothing like you even attempted to describe it as.
despite me posting 4 instances of relative consistency
"4 instances" AKA garbage contextless instances that you've then conceded mostly on. Christ sake, you didn't even cite.
affecting Mr Mxy with magic
By "affecting" you mean "doing what Superman does with extra steps"? Seems a bit naff mate.
Show superman affecting Mxy with magic??
Erm, Sups BFR's Mxy all the time, I never said magic was involved. Your own scan literally just has her manipulate his speech, which is exactly what Sups does without the need for magic.
Let me post some of her better feats
None are cited and you don't provide context for any of them. These are baseless feats being spammed for the sake of spamming them. Get the citations.
I feel like Thanos would out-prep Darkseid, but a team of Darkseid/Vulcan seems pretty nasty from an offensive standpoint, especially considering Vulcan could manipulate the Omega Effect/Beams. Zatanna’s magic/hax could pose a serious problem unless they neutralize her quickly tho. Leaning towards Darkseid and Vulcan
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