Darkseid vs Superman Prime

" @deathlife said:

" @Death Certificate said:

" @deathlife: Because it has been debunked as bad writing. "

 
I have read through the several Darkseid threads here (and i mean really,really many) and most of them say that Darkseid uses avatars.
 
While that is very true and there have been a number of instances where Desaad has taken DS's place...it would be massive stretch to explain away all of DSs appearances as avatars. Unless there is a statement on-panel where DS says this or a DC statement that says it, it is cannon that Supes has beaten Darkseid.  Several writers (Kelly, Byrne, the much maligned Loeb, Jurgens) have written stories with Supes owning DS (or at least them stalemating). There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that current Darkseid (not PC Darkseid who was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayy above SA Superman) is above current Supes. Why DC decide to do this, i really don't know because it makes absolutely no sense to have Supes constantly own Darkseid but if DC have decided it...we just to have to accept it (kind of like how Thor can't beat the Hulk no matter what, it's just the way it is). Now, looking at Superman-Prime who is several times stronger than Superboy Prime who is several times stronger than Supes...it's just overkill.  Prime wins this. "

welcome to the vine, theres a lot of fanboys here to ignore the facts.  wait to see a thor v hulk thread and you ll see. "

Darkseid fighting seriously would have no problem with Prime.
Thor fighting seriously would have no problem with Hulk. 
They only have decent battles for the writing. If a battle was a stomp every time, it wouldn't be a very interesting battle.

" @Valtot:  Out of context scans don't and won't ever prove anything.  "

" Darkseid fighting seriously would have no problem with Prime. Thor fighting seriously would have no problem with Hulk.  They only have decent battles for the writing. If a battle was a stomp every time, it wouldn't be a very interesting battle. "

The problem with the Darkseid fans is they aren't content to just say Darkseid can beat Superman, which is reasonable. Instead, they insist that he can curbstomp Superman, which is not really in evidence (at least, none that I've seen them present), even though the only encounter between the two that I'm aware of that actually went all the way to a clear victory was won by Superman (in Apokolips Now, which was written by MARK SCHULTZ, before people start crying about Loeb). 
 
@OmegaDynasty: Having his mind read is not the same as having it assaulted. If it were that easy to bring down Superboy Prime, then you'd think someone would have done it before he killed half the GL Corps, or destroyed a universe fighting Monarch. Besides, can Darkseid even do that in battle? I don't think I've ever seen him actually use such a power on a strong foe during combat. 
 
@entropy_aegis: The first scan simply shows Darkseid knocking Superman over. That does not even constitute a win, much less a curbstomp. The second doesn't show the rest of the fight, where Superman breaks his grip, blasts him, and evades the Omega Effect. Again, not even a win for Darkseid, much less a curbstomp. The rest only establish that DS has an effective means of BFRing Superman, which is also not a curbstomp, and only technically a win. When he turned Henshaw into a ball, that actually needed two shots from the Omega Effect, as well as some pounding by Superman, and that was in the same story where Doomsday beat him half to death in 2 or 3 pages. 
 
@Valtot: Again, knocking Superman over doesn't constitute a win, especially when he's clearly ready to continue the fight and has to be restrained (by Orion of all people). Wonder Woman has been shown capable of hitting him harder than that. 
 
@comicdude23: It's only PIS is Darkseid has more consistent showings of him dominating vastly superior opponents, which he doesn't (or at least, they haven't been shown). 
 
@MrDirector786 said: 

Superman can't beat Darkseid at all.

 Those few times were either PIS or not Darkseid. Outside of Superman comics, Darkseid has beaten people much more powerful than Superman such as the Greek Gods who gave Wonder Woman her power.

I don't know when Kelly ever wrote a story when Superman beat Darkseid,  

but that instance Byrne wrote wasn't Darkseid - it was Desaad disguised as Darkseid.  

Loeb's are all bad writing and I don't know when Jurgens whote Superman beating Darkseid either. "  

" Darkseid fighting seriously would have no problem with Prime.

Superman beats Darkseid because he's the hero. He's SUPPOSED to win. That's how it goes. Darkseid is a superior being, but Superman comes out on top. It's compelling with the underdog being victorious and saving the world for the little people at home on Earth or whatever planet happens to be in conflict. Do you really think a true evil genius would go out and reveal his plan so someone like Superman could come in and beat him up? Hell no. Thankfully, we here on the Vine don't have to worry about such trivial nonsense. :)  
 
Darkseid wins, and gloriously.

Hm, I agree Darkseid is powerful, but this guy took on the Monarch and has some insane feats, arguably some of the best for someone at his level. I gotta go with Superman Prime.

" @supermandefender said:

" Prime as a boy rapes darkseid. superman prime is overkill. superman can beat darkseid. "

Superman can't beat Darkseid at all.
 
 @demifiend said:

" why people keep ignoring that supes already beat DS a few times? and even says is PIS? ignore cannon or what? i see ds has a lot of fanboys here. "

 Those few times were either PIS or not Darkseid. Outside of Superman comics, Darkseid has beaten people much more powerful than Superman such as the Greek Gods who gave Wonder Woman her power.
 
@deathlife said:

" @Death Certificate said:

" @deathlife: Because it has been debunked as bad writing. "

 
I have read through the several Darkseid threads here (and i mean really,really many) and most of them say that Darkseid uses avatars.
 
While that is very true and there have been a number of instances where Desaad has taken DS's place...it would be massive stretch to explain away all of DSs appearances as avatars. Unless there is a statement on-panel where DS says this or a DC statement that says it, it is cannon that Supes has beaten Darkseid.  Several writers (Kelly, Byrne, the much maligned Loeb, Jurgens) have written stories with Supes owning DS (or at least them stalemating).

I don't know when Kelly ever wrote a story when Superman beat Darkseid, but that instance Byrne wrote wasn't Darkseid - it was Desaad disguised as Darkseid. Loeb's are all bad writing and I don't know when Jurgens whote Superman beating Darkseid either. "

 Superman Prime wins, unless this is PC Darkseid.

"The problem with the Darkseid fans is they aren't content to just say Darkseid can beat Superman, which is reasonable. Instead, they insist that he can curbstomp Superman, which is not really in evidence (at least, none that I've seen them present), even though the only encounter between the two that I'm aware of that actually went all the way to a clear victory was won by Superman (in Apokolips Now, which was written by MARK SCHULTZ, before people start crying about Loeb). 
 
@OmegaDynasty: Having his mind read is not the same as having it assaulted. If it were that easy to bring down Superboy Prime, then you'd think someone would have done it before he killed half the GL Corps, or destroyed a universe fighting Monarch. Besides, can Darkseid even do that in battle? I don't think I've ever seen him actually use such a power on a strong foe during combat. 
 
@entropy_aegis: The first scan simply shows Darkseid knocking Superman over. That does not even constitute a win, much less a curbstomp. The second doesn't show the rest of the fight, where Superman breaks his grip, blasts him, and evades the Omega Effect. Again, not even a win for Darkseid, much less a curbstomp. The rest only establish that DS has an effective means of BFRing Superman, which is also not a curbstomp, and only technically a win. When he turned Henshaw into a ball, that actually needed two shots from the Omega Effect, as well as some pounding by Superman, and that was in the same story where Doomsday beat him half to death in 2 or 3 pages. 
 
@Valtot: Again, knocking Superman over doesn't constitute a win, especially when he's clearly ready to continue the fight and has to be restrained (by Orion of all people). Wonder Woman has been shown capable of hitting him harder than that. 
 
@comicdude23: It's only PIS is Darkseid has more consistent showings of him dominating vastly superior opponents, which he doesn't (or at least, they haven't been shown). 
 
@MrDirector786 said: 

Superman can't beat Darkseid at all.

Superman has done so, as has Doomsday, and SMP is significantly more powerful than either of them (or both of them, for that matter). 

 Those few times were either PIS or not Darkseid. Outside of Superman comics, Darkseid has beaten people much more powerful than Superman such as the Greek Gods who gave Wonder Woman her power.

When did Darkseid defeat the Greek Gods, and how did he do it? Darkseid has consistently had difficulty with both Superman and Orion. Highfather lost to Ares alone. Darkseid being capable of taking all the Greek Gods in a fight sounds far more like PIS than Superman beating him, because if DS were really that powerful, he should have been able to crush New Genesis by himself ages ago. However, I'm doubtful that is what actually happened. 
 
And that's only one example. Do you have any more? Because Darkseid has fought Superman and Orion quite a few times, and pretty much always has trouble with them.

I don't know when Kelly ever wrote a story when Superman beat Darkseid,  

 
He wrote at least one issue of Our Worlds at War where they effectively stalemated. 

but that instance Byrne wrote wasn't Darkseid - it was Desaad disguised as Darkseid.  

For someone quick to call PIS on all issues of Superman harming Darkseid, I find it a little funny that you would bring up that retcon, since Desaad surviving multiple blows from a very, very angry Superman, makes far less sense than Darkseid doing so. Not to mention how the hell is Desaad using the Omega Effect there?  

Loeb's are all bad writing and I don't know when Jurgens whote Superman beating Darkseid either. "  

Jurgens wrote Hunter/Prey, where Doomsday took him out pretty easily. 
 
@_Courage_ said:

" Darkseid fighting seriously would have no problem with Prime.

 Not likely. In a single issue issue SMP casually one-shotted Zod, Martian Manhunter, Wonder Woman, and the entire planet they were on. In the same issue Darkseid could barely handle Mary Marvel. "

and what has this mark guy written outside of that pointless oneshot? what are his credits?how much does he know about the characters?  

 the fact darkseid was effortlessly able to send supes anywhere according to his wishes demonstrates that the effect works on superman  , 

what do you expect the writers to do?kill him? 

doomsday owned everyone back in the day,he beat the guardians ,wrecked the JLA but loses to superman.why are we even using the character ? 

no one brings up the dessad incident outside of people who want to use it against darkseid,it was retconned away and briniging it up for either parties is pointless. 

darkseid has disposed off orion efforlessly on more than one occasion . 

and as for the our worlds at war stalemate. well people seem to forget that darkseid used the effect succesfully on supes twice and even beat him in a fist fight.  

the one incident which everyone loves mentioning happened cause darkseid had lost his power blasting imperiex,and even then he overwhelmed supes eventually 

And countdown has no relevance to either FC or Seven soldiers ,which are cannon. the only things from countdown that were acknowledged were the monitors,the destruction of Earth 51(they did'nt go in to detail,just that the universe was dead).  "    

" @entropy_aegis said:

and what has this mark guy written outside of that pointless oneshot? what are his credits?how much does he know about the characters?  

  
He apparently worked mainly on Superman: Man of Steel, from issues 87 to 134, plus a couple DC One Million books and a few other one-shots. My main reason to emphasize his name is that some people try to act like Geoff Loeb is the only writer to ever portray Superman even holding his own against Darkseid, which is simply not true. 
 
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Mark_Schultz/Writer   

 the fact darkseid was effortlessly able to send supes anywhere according to his wishes demonstrates that the effect works on superman  , 

All it establishes is that the teleportation effect works. The other abilities of the Omega Effect have been shown to be less effective on him. 
 

what do you expect the writers to do?kill him? 

No, but if Darkseid were as powerful as some of you are suggesting, then he should be able to incapacitate Superman easily, which he hasn't done. He should be able to beat him at least as badly as Superman beat him in Apokolips Now, with minimal effort, which he hasn't done. He should be able to withstand Superman's strongest blows with barely a flinch, which he hasn't done. As I pointed out, Wonder Woman has beaten Superman more bloody than some of those scans used as "proof" of Darkseid's superiority. Having Superman decisively lose without killing him is really trivially simple to do, it just hasn't been done. 
 

doomsday owned everyone back in the day,he beat the guardians ,wrecked the JLA but loses to superman.why are we even using the character ? 

Because Hunter/Prey was only his second appearance, and during the DoS arc, while he did beat the hell out of Superman, it wasn't a curbstomp. Again, the big problem with you Darkseid fans isn't arguing that DS can beat Superman, but insisting that it is a completely one-sided slaughter. If this were the case, he should be untouchable to guys like Doomsday, or Orion, which is not shown. Yeah, DD was physically tougher than Supes in DoS. He was again in Hunter/Prey. But not so much that Superman had no reasonable prayer of standing up to him at all. 
 
The nonsense with him killing a Guardian came later.

no one brings up the dessad incident outside of people who want to use it against darkseid,it was retconned away and briniging it up for either parties is pointless. 

As I said, the retcon made less sense than what was originally shown, so if people are bringing up PIS, I don't see why that wouldn't qualify. It's also an early example of a non-Loeb writer viewing Superman as close enough to DS to do him harm, which again illustrates the point that Loeb isn't the only writer to view them like this. 
 

darkseid has disposed off orion efforlessly on more than one occasion . 

He's also had a hard time with Orion on more than one occasion. Given the nature of the prophecy involving the two of them, and Kirby's initial volumes, it seems pretty doubtful Darkseid was ever intended to be that much stronger than him. And as I pointed out before, if he really was, he could have crushed New Genesis by himself ages ago. 
 

and as for the our worlds at war stalemate. well people seem to forget that darkseid used the effect succesfully on supes twice and even beat him in a fist fight.  

There were two encounters, both of which were essentially stalemates, and the first of which was shortly after Superman had been shot by Imperiex.
 

the one incident which everyone loves mentioning happened cause darkseid had lost his power blasting imperiex,and even then he overwhelmed supes eventually 

EVENTUALLY. That means it was not a curbstomp. That's one of those details you keep seeming to miss. DS overpowered him, but it wasn't done easily by any stretch. Yeah, DS was worn out, but Superman had been involved in the battle too, and had actually engaged Imperiex earlier with Doomsday, so it's neither one of them were fresh and rested. 
 

And countdown has no relevance to either FC or Seven soldiers ,which are cannon. the only things from countdown that were acknowledged were the monitors,the destruction of Earth 51(they did'nt go in to detail,just that the universe was dead).  "    

Countdown is relevant to Superman Prime because, as far as I'm aware, that's pretty much the only place he shows up. "

" @entropy_aegis said:

and what has this mark guy written outside of that pointless oneshot? what are his credits?how much does he know about the characters?  

  
He apparently worked mainly on Superman: Man of Steel, from issues 87 to 134, plus a couple DC One Million books and a few other one-shots. My main reason to emphasize his name is that some people try to act like Geoff Loeb is the only writer to ever portray Superman even holding his own against Darkseid, which is simply not true. 
 
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Mark_Schultz/Writer   

 the fact darkseid was effortlessly able to send supes anywhere according to his wishes demonstrates that the effect works on superman  , 

All it establishes is that the teleportation effect works. The other abilities of the Omega Effect have been shown to be less effective on him. 
 

what do you expect the writers to do?kill him? 

No, but if Darkseid were as powerful as some of you are suggesting, then he should be able to incapacitate Superman easily, which he hasn't done. He should be able to beat him at least as badly as Superman beat him in Apokolips Now, with minimal effort, which he hasn't done. He should be able to withstand Superman's strongest blows with barely a flinch, which he hasn't done. As I pointed out, Wonder Woman has beaten Superman more bloody than some of those scans used as "proof" of Darkseid's superiority. Having Superman decisively lose without killing him is really trivially simple to do, it just hasn't been done. 
 

doomsday owned everyone back in the day,he beat the guardians ,wrecked the JLA but loses to superman.why are we even using the character ? 

Because Hunter/Prey was only his second appearance, and during the DoS arc, while he did beat the hell out of Superman, it wasn't a curbstomp. Again, the big problem with you Darkseid fans isn't arguing that DS can beat Superman, but insisting that it is a completely one-sided slaughter. If this were the case, he should be untouchable to guys like Doomsday, or Orion, which is not shown. Yeah, DD was physically tougher than Supes in DoS. He was again in Hunter/Prey. But not so much that Superman had no reasonable prayer of standing up to him at all. 
 
The nonsense with him killing a Guardian came later.

no one brings up the dessad incident outside of people who want to use it against darkseid,it was retconned away and briniging it up for either parties is pointless. 

As I said, the retcon made less sense than what was originally shown, so if people are bringing up PIS, I don't see why that wouldn't qualify. It's also an early example of a non-Loeb writer viewing Superman as close enough to DS to do him harm, which again illustrates the point that Loeb isn't the only writer to view them like this. 
 

darkseid has disposed off orion efforlessly on more than one occasion . 

He's also had a hard time with Orion on more than one occasion. Given the nature of the prophecy involving the two of them, and Kirby's initial volumes, it seems pretty doubtful Darkseid was ever intended to be that much stronger than him. And as I pointed out before, if he really was, he could have crushed New Genesis by himself ages ago. 
 

and as for the our worlds at war stalemate. well people seem to forget that darkseid used the effect succesfully on supes twice and even beat him in a fist fight.  

There were two encounters, both of which were essentially stalemates, and the first of which was shortly after Superman had been shot by Imperiex.
 

the one incident which everyone loves mentioning happened cause darkseid had lost his power blasting imperiex,and even then he overwhelmed supes eventually 

EVENTUALLY. That means it was not a curbstomp. That's one of those details you keep seeming to miss. DS overpowered him, but it wasn't done easily by any stretch. Yeah, DS was worn out, but Superman had been involved in the battle too, and had actually engaged Imperiex earlier with Doomsday, so it's neither one of them were fresh and rested. 
 

And countdown has no relevance to either FC or Seven soldiers ,which are cannon. the only things from countdown that were acknowledged were the monitors,the destruction of Earth 51(they did'nt go in to detail,just that the universe was dead).  "    

Countdown is relevant to Superman Prime because, as far as I'm aware, that's pretty much the only place he shows up. "

I got Darkseid taking the win

" @Freefa11 said:

" @entropy_aegis said:

and what has this mark guy written outside of that pointless oneshot? what are his credits?how much does he know about the characters?  

  
He apparently worked mainly on Superman: Man of Steel, from issues 87 to 134, plus a couple DC One Million books and a few other one-shots. My main reason to emphasize his name is that some people try to act like Geoff Loeb is the only writer to ever portray Superman even holding his own against Darkseid, which is simply not true. 
 
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Mark_Schultz/Writer   

 the fact darkseid was effortlessly able to send supes anywhere according to his wishes demonstrates that the effect works on superman  , 

All it establishes is that the teleportation effect works. The other abilities of the Omega Effect have been shown to be less effective on him. 
 

what do you expect the writers to do?kill him? 

No, but if Darkseid were as powerful as some of you are suggesting, then he should be able to incapacitate Superman easily, which he hasn't done. He should be able to beat him at least as badly as Superman beat him in Apokolips Now, with minimal effort, which he hasn't done. He should be able to withstand Superman's strongest blows with barely a flinch, which he hasn't done. As I pointed out, Wonder Woman has beaten Superman more bloody than some of those scans used as "proof" of Darkseid's superiority. Having Superman decisively lose without killing him is really trivially simple to do, it just hasn't been done. 
 

doomsday owned everyone back in the day,he beat the guardians ,wrecked the JLA but loses to superman.why are we even using the character ? 

Because Hunter/Prey was only his second appearance, and during the DoS arc, while he did beat the hell out of Superman, it wasn't a curbstomp. Again, the big problem with you Darkseid fans isn't arguing that DS can beat Superman, but insisting that it is a completely one-sided slaughter. If this were the case, he should be untouchable to guys like Doomsday, or Orion, which is not shown. Yeah, DD was physically tougher than Supes in DoS. He was again in Hunter/Prey. But not so much that Superman had no reasonable prayer of standing up to him at all. 
 
The nonsense with him killing a Guardian came later.

no one brings up the dessad incident outside of people who want to use it against darkseid,it was retconned away and briniging it up for either parties is pointless. 

As I said, the retcon made less sense than what was originally shown, so if people are bringing up PIS, I don't see why that wouldn't qualify. It's also an early example of a non-Loeb writer viewing Superman as close enough to DS to do him harm, which again illustrates the point that Loeb isn't the only writer to view them like this. 
 

darkseid has disposed off orion efforlessly on more than one occasion . 

He's also had a hard time with Orion on more than one occasion. Given the nature of the prophecy involving the two of them, and Kirby's initial volumes, it seems pretty doubtful Darkseid was ever intended to be that much stronger than him. And as I pointed out before, if he really was, he could have crushed New Genesis by himself ages ago. 
 

and as for the our worlds at war stalemate. well people seem to forget that darkseid used the effect succesfully on supes twice and even beat him in a fist fight.  

There were two encounters, both of which were essentially stalemates, and the first of which was shortly after Superman had been shot by Imperiex.
 

the one incident which everyone loves mentioning happened cause darkseid had lost his power blasting imperiex,and even then he overwhelmed supes eventually 

EVENTUALLY. That means it was not a curbstomp. That's one of those details you keep seeming to miss. DS overpowered him, but it wasn't done easily by any stretch. Yeah, DS was worn out, but Superman had been involved in the battle too, and had actually engaged Imperiex earlier with Doomsday, so it's neither one of them were fresh and rested. 
 

And countdown has no relevance to either FC or Seven soldiers ,which are cannon. the only things from countdown that were acknowledged were the monitors,the destruction of Earth 51(they did'nt go in to detail,just that the universe was dead).  "    

Countdown is relevant to Superman Prime because, as far as I'm aware, that's pretty much the only place he shows up. "

  Exactly.  I'm only going with what's on the printed page.  It's absolutely impossible to dismiss the works of two writers as PIS. "

"@entropy_aegis said:

and what has this mark guy written outside of that pointless oneshot? what are his credits?how much does he know about the characters?  

  
He apparently worked mainly on Superman: Man of Steel, from issues 87 to 134, plus a couple DC One Million books and a few other one-shots. My main reason to emphasize his name is that some people try to act like Geoff Loeb is the only writer to ever portray Superman even holding his own against Darkseid, which is simply not true. 
 
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Mark_Schultz/Writer   

 the fact darkseid was effortlessly able to send supes anywhere according to his wishes demonstrates that the effect works on superman  , 

All it establishes is that the teleportation effect works. The other abilities of the Omega Effect have been shown to be less effective on him. 
 

what do you expect the writers to do?kill him? 

No, but if Darkseid were as powerful as some of you are suggesting, then he should be able to incapacitate Superman easily, which he hasn't done. He should be able to beat him at least as badly as Superman beat him in Apokolips Now, with minimal effort, which he hasn't done. He should be able to withstand Superman's strongest blows with barely a flinch, which he hasn't done. As I pointed out, Wonder Woman has beaten Superman more bloody than some of those scans used as "proof" of Darkseid's superiority. Having Superman decisively lose without killing him is really trivially simple to do, it just hasn't been done. 
 

doomsday owned everyone back in the day,he beat the guardians ,wrecked the JLA but loses to superman.why are we even using the character ? 

Because Hunter/Prey was only his second appearance, and during the DoS arc, while he did beat the hell out of Superman, it wasn't a curbstomp. Again, the big problem with you Darkseid fans isn't arguing that DS can beat Superman, but insisting that it is a completely one-sided slaughter. If this were the case, he should be untouchable to guys like Doomsday, or Orion, which is not shown. Yeah, DD was physically tougher than Supes in DoS. He was again in Hunter/Prey. But not so much that Superman had no reasonable prayer of standing up to him at all. 
 
The nonsense with him killing a Guardian came later.

no one brings up the dessad incident outside of people who want to use it against darkseid,it was retconned away and briniging it up for either parties is pointless. 

As I said, the retcon made less sense than what was originally shown, so if people are bringing up PIS, I don't see why that wouldn't qualify. It's also an early example of a non-Loeb writer viewing Superman as close enough to DS to do him harm, which again illustrates the point that Loeb isn't the only writer to view them like this. 
 

darkseid has disposed off orion efforlessly on more than one occasion . 

He's also had a hard time with Orion on more than one occasion. Given the nature of the prophecy involving the two of them, and Kirby's initial volumes, it seems pretty doubtful Darkseid was ever intended to be that much stronger than him. And as I pointed out before, if he really was, he could have crushed New Genesis by himself ages ago. 
 

and as for the our worlds at war stalemate. well people seem to forget that darkseid used the effect succesfully on supes twice and even beat him in a fist fight.  

There were two encounters, both of which were essentially stalemates, and the first of which was shortly after Superman had been shot by Imperiex.
 

the one incident which everyone loves mentioning happened cause darkseid had lost his power blasting imperiex,and even then he overwhelmed supes eventually 

EVENTUALLY. That means it was not a curbstomp. That's one of those details you keep seeming to miss. DS overpowered him, but it wasn't done easily by any stretch. Yeah, DS was worn out, but Superman had been involved in the battle too, and had actually engaged Imperiex earlier with Doomsday, so it's neither one of them were fresh and rested. 
 

And countdown has no relevance to either FC or Seven soldiers ,which are cannon. the only things from countdown that were acknowledged were the monitors,the destruction of Earth 51(they did'nt go in to detail,just that the universe was dead).  "    

Countdown is relevant to Superman Prime because, as far as I'm aware, that's pretty much the only place he shows up. "

" @Freefa11 said:

"@entropy_aegis said:

and what has this mark guy written outside of that pointless oneshot? what are his credits?how much does he know about the characters?  

  
He apparently worked mainly on Superman: Man of Steel, from issues 87 to 134, plus a couple DC One Million books and a few other one-shots. My main reason to emphasize his name is that some people try to act like Geoff Loeb is the only writer to ever portray Superman even holding his own against Darkseid, which is simply not true. 
 
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Mark_Schultz/Writer   

 the fact darkseid was effortlessly able to send supes anywhere according to his wishes demonstrates that the effect works on superman  , 

All it establishes is that the teleportation effect works. The other abilities of the Omega Effect have been shown to be less effective on him. 
 

what do you expect the writers to do?kill him? 

No, but if Darkseid were as powerful as some of you are suggesting, then he should be able to incapacitate Superman easily, which he hasn't done. He should be able to beat him at least as badly as Superman beat him in Apokolips Now, with minimal effort, which he hasn't done. He should be able to withstand Superman's strongest blows with barely a flinch, which he hasn't done. As I pointed out, Wonder Woman has beaten Superman more bloody than some of those scans used as "proof" of Darkseid's superiority. Having Superman decisively lose without killing him is really trivially simple to do, it just hasn't been done. 
 

doomsday owned everyone back in the day,he beat the guardians ,wrecked the JLA but loses to superman.why are we even using the character ? 

Because Hunter/Prey was only his second appearance, and during the DoS arc, while he did beat the hell out of Superman, it wasn't a curbstomp. Again, the big problem with you Darkseid fans isn't arguing that DS can beat Superman, but insisting that it is a completely one-sided slaughter. If this were the case, he should be untouchable to guys like Doomsday, or Orion, which is not shown. Yeah, DD was physically tougher than Supes in DoS. He was again in Hunter/Prey. But not so much that Superman had no reasonable prayer of standing up to him at all. 
 
The nonsense with him killing a Guardian came later.

no one brings up the dessad incident outside of people who want to use it against darkseid,it was retconned away and briniging it up for either parties is pointless. 

As I said, the retcon made less sense than what was originally shown, so if people are bringing up PIS, I don't see why that wouldn't qualify. It's also an early example of a non-Loeb writer viewing Superman as close enough to DS to do him harm, which again illustrates the point that Loeb isn't the only writer to view them like this. 
 

darkseid has disposed off orion efforlessly on more than one occasion . 

He's also had a hard time with Orion on more than one occasion. Given the nature of the prophecy involving the two of them, and Kirby's initial volumes, it seems pretty doubtful Darkseid was ever intended to be that much stronger than him. And as I pointed out before, if he really was, he could have crushed New Genesis by himself ages ago. 
 

and as for the our worlds at war stalemate. well people seem to forget that darkseid used the effect succesfully on supes twice and even beat him in a fist fight.  

There were two encounters, both of which were essentially stalemates, and the first of which was shortly after Superman had been shot by Imperiex.
 

the one incident which everyone loves mentioning happened cause darkseid had lost his power blasting imperiex,and even then he overwhelmed supes eventually 

EVENTUALLY. That means it was not a curbstomp. That's one of those details you keep seeming to miss. DS overpowered him, but it wasn't done easily by any stretch. Yeah, DS was worn out, but Superman had been involved in the battle too, and had actually engaged Imperiex earlier with Doomsday, so it's neither one of them were fresh and rested. 
 

And countdown has no relevance to either FC or Seven soldiers ,which are cannon. the only things from countdown that were acknowledged were the monitors,the destruction of Earth 51(they did'nt go in to detail,just that the universe was dead).  "    

Countdown is relevant to Superman Prime because, as far as I'm aware, that's pretty much the only place he shows up. "

Geoff loeb?LOL. well either way this guy barely had a crack at the characters so what he writes is quite meaningless. the effect works ,obviously he's going to port him,he's paralyzed him on an occasion too,he erased agog who's>supes with his effect.that's the whole point which they're trying to convey,he can get rid of him anytime. and again i dont know why doomsday is being used,he holds as much relevance as prometheus. and  that dessad incident was retconned away,i wonder why.his hard fights with orion are H2H matches,he's disposed off him quite easily when he wanted. superman never engaged imperiex with doomsday,darkseid bailed him out on that occasion,and supes was'nt worn out after he and darkseid cracked imperiex cause kismet protected him. "

" @entropy_aegis said:

" @Freefa11 said:

"@entropy_aegis said:

and what has this mark guy written outside of that pointless oneshot? what are his credits?how much does he know about the characters?  

  
He apparently worked mainly on Superman: Man of Steel, from issues 87 to 134, plus a couple DC One Million books and a few other one-shots. My main reason to emphasize his name is that some people try to act like Geoff Loeb is the only writer to ever portray Superman even holding his own against Darkseid, which is simply not true. 
 
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Mark_Schultz/Writer   

 the fact darkseid was effortlessly able to send supes anywhere according to his wishes demonstrates that the effect works on superman  , 

All it establishes is that the teleportation effect works. The other abilities of the Omega Effect have been shown to be less effective on him. 
 

what do you expect the writers to do?kill him? 

No, but if Darkseid were as powerful as some of you are suggesting, then he should be able to incapacitate Superman easily, which he hasn't done. He should be able to beat him at least as badly as Superman beat him in Apokolips Now, with minimal effort, which he hasn't done. He should be able to withstand Superman's strongest blows with barely a flinch, which he hasn't done. As I pointed out, Wonder Woman has beaten Superman more bloody than some of those scans used as "proof" of Darkseid's superiority. Having Superman decisively lose without killing him is really trivially simple to do, it just hasn't been done. 
 

doomsday owned everyone back in the day,he beat the guardians ,wrecked the JLA but loses to superman.why are we even using the character ? 

Because Hunter/Prey was only his second appearance, and during the DoS arc, while he did beat the hell out of Superman, it wasn't a curbstomp. Again, the big problem with you Darkseid fans isn't arguing that DS can beat Superman, but insisting that it is a completely one-sided slaughter. If this were the case, he should be untouchable to guys like Doomsday, or Orion, which is not shown. Yeah, DD was physically tougher than Supes in DoS. He was again in Hunter/Prey. But not so much that Superman had no reasonable prayer of standing up to him at all. 
 
The nonsense with him killing a Guardian came later.

no one brings up the dessad incident outside of people who want to use it against darkseid,it was retconned away and briniging it up for either parties is pointless. 

As I said, the retcon made less sense than what was originally shown, so if people are bringing up PIS, I don't see why that wouldn't qualify. It's also an early example of a non-Loeb writer viewing Superman as close enough to DS to do him harm, which again illustrates the point that Loeb isn't the only writer to view them like this. 
 

darkseid has disposed off orion efforlessly on more than one occasion . 

He's also had a hard time with Orion on more than one occasion. Given the nature of the prophecy involving the two of them, and Kirby's initial volumes, it seems pretty doubtful Darkseid was ever intended to be that much stronger than him. And as I pointed out before, if he really was, he could have crushed New Genesis by himself ages ago. 
 

and as for the our worlds at war stalemate. well people seem to forget that darkseid used the effect succesfully on supes twice and even beat him in a fist fight.  

There were two encounters, both of which were essentially stalemates, and the first of which was shortly after Superman had been shot by Imperiex.
 

the one incident which everyone loves mentioning happened cause darkseid had lost his power blasting imperiex,and even then he overwhelmed supes eventually 

EVENTUALLY. That means it was not a curbstomp. That's one of those details you keep seeming to miss. DS overpowered him, but it wasn't done easily by any stretch. Yeah, DS was worn out, but Superman had been involved in the battle too, and had actually engaged Imperiex earlier with Doomsday, so it's neither one of them were fresh and rested. 
 

And countdown has no relevance to either FC or Seven soldiers ,which are cannon. the only things from countdown that were acknowledged were the monitors,the destruction of Earth 51(they did'nt go in to detail,just that the universe was dead).  "    

Countdown is relevant to Superman Prime because, as far as I'm aware, that's pretty much the only place he shows up. "

Geoff loeb?LOL. well either way this guy barely had a crack at the characters so what he writes is quite meaningless. the effect works ,obviously he's going to port him,he's paralyzed him on an occasion too,he erased agog who's>supes with his effect.that's the whole point which they're trying to convey,he can get rid of him anytime. and again i dont know why doomsday is being used,he holds as much relevance as prometheus. and  that dessad incident was retconned away,i wonder why.his hard fights with orion are H2H matches,he's disposed off him quite easily when he wanted. superman never engaged imperiex with doomsday,darkseid bailed him out on that occasion,and supes was'nt worn out after he and darkseid cracked imperiex cause kismet protected him. "

   Are you sure about the Orion thing?  Orion was the catalyst for the destruction of Darkseid's physical body. This was referenced in Final Crisis which is as cannon as it gets.  I don't think Darkseid can waive Orion away that easily. "

" @deathlife said:

" @Freefa11 said:

" @entropy_aegis said:

and what has this mark guy written outside of that pointless oneshot? what are his credits?how much does he know about the characters?  

  
He apparently worked mainly on Superman: Man of Steel, from issues 87 to 134, plus a couple DC One Million books and a few other one-shots. My main reason to emphasize his name is that some people try to act like Geoff Loeb is the only writer to ever portray Superman even holding his own against Darkseid, which is simply not true. 
 
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Mark_Schultz/Writer    

 the fact darkseid was effortlessly able to send supes anywhere according to his wishes demonstrates that the effect works on superman  , 

All it establishes is that the teleportation effect works. The other abilities of the Omega Effect have been shown to be less effective on him. 
 

what do you expect the writers to do?kill him? 

No, but if Darkseid were as powerful as some of you are suggesting, then he should be able to incapacitate Superman easily, which he hasn't done. He should be able to beat him at least as badly as Superman beat him in Apokolips Now, with minimal effort, which he hasn't done. He should be able to withstand Superman's strongest blows with barely a flinch, which he hasn't done. As I pointed out, Wonder Woman has beaten Superman more bloody than some of those scans used as "proof" of Darkseid's superiority. Having Superman decisively lose without killing him is really trivially simple to do, it just hasn't been done. 
 

doomsday owned everyone back in the day,he beat the guardians ,wrecked the JLA but loses to superman.why are we even using the character ? 

Because Hunter/Prey was only his second appearance, and during the DoS arc, while he did beat the hell out of Superman, it wasn't a curbstomp. Again, the big problem with you Darkseid fans isn't arguing that DS can beat Superman, but insisting that it is a completely one-sided slaughter. If this were the case, he should be untouchable to guys like Doomsday, or Orion, which is not shown. Yeah, DD was physically tougher than Supes in DoS. He was again in Hunter/Prey. But not so much that Superman had no reasonable prayer of standing up to him at all. 
 
The nonsense with him killing a Guardian came later.

no one brings up the dessad incident outside of people who want to use it against darkseid,it was retconned away and briniging it up for either parties is pointless. 

As I said, the retcon made less sense than what was originally shown, so if people are bringing up PIS, I don't see why that wouldn't qualify. It's also an early example of a non-Loeb writer viewing Superman as close enough to DS to do him harm, which again illustrates the point that Loeb isn't the only writer to view them like this. 
 

darkseid has disposed off orion efforlessly on more than one occasion . 

He's also had a hard time with Orion on more than one occasion. Given the nature of the prophecy involving the two of them, and Kirby's initial volumes, it seems pretty doubtful Darkseid was ever intended to be that much stronger than him. And as I pointed out before, if he really was, he could have crushed New Genesis by himself ages ago. 
 

and as for the our worlds at war stalemate. well people seem to forget that darkseid used the effect succesfully on supes twice and even beat him in a fist fight.  

There were two encounters, both of which were essentially stalemates, and the first of which was shortly after Superman had been shot by Imperiex.
 

the one incident which everyone loves mentioning happened cause darkseid had lost his power blasting imperiex,and even then he overwhelmed supes eventually 

EVENTUALLY. That means it was not a curbstomp. That's one of those details you keep seeming to miss. DS overpowered him, but it wasn't done easily by any stretch. Yeah, DS was worn out, but Superman had been involved in the battle too, and had actually engaged Imperiex earlier with Doomsday, so it's neither one of them were fresh and rested. 
 

And countdown has no relevance to either FC or Seven soldiers ,which are cannon. the only things from countdown that were acknowledged were the monitors,the destruction of Earth 51(they did'nt go in to detail,just that the universe was dead).  "    

Countdown is relevant to Superman Prime because, as far as I'm aware, that's pretty much the only place he shows up. "

  Exactly.  I'm only going with what's on the printed page.  It's absolutely impossible to dismiss the works of two writers as PIS. "

You can dismiss the works of a hundred writers as PIS,bad writing is bad writing no matter what. "

@deathlife:
Superman beating Darkseid is PIS. 
 
His powerset is too much for Superman. It's simply PIS.

 
Prime won't blitz..

@MrDirector786 said: 

Superman can't beat Darkseid at all.

Superman has done so, as has Doomsday, and SMP is significantly more powerful than either of them (or both of them, for that matter). 

 Those few times were either PIS or not Darkseid. Outside of Superman comics, Darkseid has beaten people much more powerful than Superman such as the Greek Gods who gave Wonder Woman her power.

When did Darkseid defeat the Greek Gods, and how did he do it? Darkseid has consistently had difficulty with both Superman and Orion. Highfather lost to Ares alone. Darkseid being capable of taking all the Greek Gods in a fight sounds far more like PIS than Superman beating him, because if DS were really that powerful, he should have been able to crush New Genesis by himself ages ago. However, I'm doubtful that is what actually happened. 
 
And that's only one example. Do you have any more? Because Darkseid has fought Superman and Orion quite a few times, and pretty much always has trouble with them.

I don't know when Kelly ever wrote a story when Superman beat Darkseid,  

 
He wrote at least one issue of Our Worlds at War where they effectively stalemated. 

but that instance Byrne wrote wasn't Darkseid - it was Desaad disguised as Darkseid.  

For someone quick to call PIS on all issues of Superman harming Darkseid, I find it a little funny that you would bring up that retcon, since Desaad surviving multiple blows from a very, very angry Superman, makes far less sense than Darkseid doing so. Not to mention how the hell is Desaad using the Omega Effect there?  

Loeb's are all bad writing and I don't know when Jurgens whote Superman beating Darkseid either. "  

Jurgens wrote Hunter/Prey, where Doomsday took him out pretty easily. 
 

Darkseid has the power to win.  He just needs to avoid getting into a fist fight. 

" @MrDirector786:  Why dont you think Superman can beat Darkseid? Fact...Superman has more power than Darkseid, its been shown by feats, its been shown on potential alone.  I dont know the agruements lately that is coming up on why darkseid is getting such hype but his power scale is around a Superman level. Superman can further his powers and do lots of PIS things.....the mageddon bomb is 1.  REasons why Superman can beat darkseid. Superman has more combat experience. Superman is faster. Superman is stronger.  Intelligence is about equal. But there is a big difference maker on why i think Superman wins. Superman can absorb more yellow sunlight making himself 3 times darkseids strength.  Superman PRime is on a PC Superman level. Pls let me dig up a fight between PC Darkseid and PC Superman. Darkseids Omega beams had no effect on Superman then.  Let me hear ur reason why Darkseid beats Superman. Most the time Superman is always fighting to a stand still against DS. Read Count down to the final crisis. Superman fights darkseid at the end there. The fights a draw. "

" @MrDirector786:  Why dont you think Superman can beat Darkseid? Fact...Superman has more power than Darkseid, its been shown by feats, its been shown on potential alone.  I dont know the agruements lately that is coming up on why darkseid is getting such hype but his power scale is around a Superman level. Superman can further his powers and do lots of PIS things.....the mageddon bomb is 1.  REasons why Superman can beat darkseid. Superman has more combat experience. Superman is faster. Superman is stronger.  Intelligence is about equal. But there is a big difference maker on why i think Superman wins. Superman can absorb more yellow sunlight making himself 3 times darkseids strength.  Superman PRime is on a PC Superman level. Pls let me dig up a fight between PC Darkseid and PC Superman. Darkseids Omega beams had no effect on Superman then.  Let me hear ur reason why Darkseid beats Superman. Most the time Superman is always fighting to a stand still against DS. Read Count down to the final crisis. Superman fights darkseid at the end there. The fights a draw. "

"

@deathlife:
Superman beating Darkseid is PIS. 
 
His powerset is too much for Superman. It's simply PIS.

 
Prime won't blitz..

"

" @comicdude23 said:

"

@deathlife:
Superman beating Darkseid is PIS. 
 
His powerset is too much for Superman. It's simply PIS.

 
Prime won't blitz..

"

 His powerset is too much for someone that moves at the speed of light, planet moving strength, heat vision (that reaches nuclear level heat), super cool breath, nigh invulnerability, heightened senses?  I don't think so. "

" @deathlife said:

" @comicdude23 said:

"

@deathlife:
Superman beating Darkseid is PIS. 
 
His powerset is too much for Superman. It's simply PIS.

 
Prime won't blitz..

"

 His powerset is too much for someone that moves at the speed of light, planet moving strength, heat vision (that reaches nuclear level heat), super cool breath, nigh invulnerability, heightened senses?  I don't think so. "

Yes, his powerset is better than that. "

" @comicdude23 said:

" @deathlife said:

" @comicdude23 said:

"

@deathlife:
Superman beating Darkseid is PIS. 
 
His powerset is too much for Superman. It's simply PIS.

 
Prime won't blitz..

"

 His powerset is too much for someone that moves at the speed of light, planet moving strength, heat vision (that reaches nuclear level heat), super cool breath, nigh invulnerability, heightened senses?  I don't think so. "

Yes, his powerset is better than that. "

  Alright, let's put it like this...apart from the Omega Effect (which we have seen Supes outrace because of Supes speed and lead back to DS himself) how exactly will he beat Supes?  In physical battle, Supes owned him. "

" @comicdude23 said:

" @deathlife said:

" @comicdude23 said:

"

@deathlife:
Superman beating Darkseid is PIS. 
 
His powerset is too much for Superman. It's simply PIS.

 
Prime won't blitz..

"

 His powerset is too much for someone that moves at the speed of light, planet moving strength, heat vision (that reaches nuclear level heat), super cool breath, nigh invulnerability, heightened senses?  I don't think so. "

Yes, his powerset is better than that. "

  Alright, let's put it like this...apart from the Omega Effect (which we have seen Supes outrace because of Supes speed and lead back to DS himself) how exactly will he beat Supes?  In physical battle, Supes owned him. "

" @comicdude23 said:

"

@deathlife:
Superman beating Darkseid is PIS. 
 
His powerset is too much for Superman. It's simply PIS.

 
Prime won't blitz..

"

 His powerset is too much for someone that moves at the speed of light, planet moving strength, heat vision (that reaches nuclear level heat), super cool breath, nigh invulnerability, heightened senses?  I don't think so. "

" Darkseid will be victorious. "

" @comicdude23 said:

" @deathlife said:

" @comicdude23 said:

"

@deathlife:
Superman beating Darkseid is PIS. 
 
His powerset is too much for Superman. It's simply PIS.

 
Prime won't blitz..

"

 His powerset is too much for someone that moves at the speed of light, planet moving strength, heat vision (that reaches nuclear level heat), super cool breath, nigh invulnerability, heightened senses?  I don't think so. "

Yes, his powerset is better than that. "

  Alright, let's put it like this...apart from the Omega Effect (which we have seen Supes outrace because of Supes speed and lead back to DS himself) how exactly will he beat Supes?  In physical battle, Supes owned him. "

"Darkseid has the power to win.  He just needs to avoid getting into a fist fight.  "

Prime wins with ridiculous  ease.

"Prime wins with ridiculous  ease."

Geoff loeb?LOL. 

 well either way this guy barely had a crack at the characters so what he writes is quite meaningless. 

the effect works ,obviously he's going to port him,he's paralyzed him on an occasion too,he erased agog who's>supes with his effect.that's the whole point which they're trying to convey,he can get rid of him anytime. 

and again i dont know why doomsday is being used,he holds as much relevance as prometheus.  

and  that dessad incident was retconned away,i wonder why. 

his hard fights with orion are H2H matches,he's disposed off him quite easily when he wanted.  

superman never engaged imperiex with doomsday,darkseid bailed him out on that occasion,and supes was'nt worn out after he and darkseid cracked imperiex cause kismet protected him. "    

Yeah but we never saw it did we? and that same darkseid unloaded bruce wayne with enough energy to destroy the timeline of the entire universe.  "

  He beat the Greek Gods on two occasions. One was in Action comics 600, another was during the Countdown. 

In fact, he has been known to have destroyed the Gods of countless other worlds and I have scans to show this too.  

Doomsday defeated an avatar of Darkseid.  

I'm no expert on Ares but Ares has shown to be a threat to the rest of the Greek Gods before and they've been powerless to stop him so it's possible he's more powerful than them too.  

That was Desaad. When Desaad disguised himself as Darkseid, he's shown to have gained his abilities before somehow as well. He once had an encounter with Doctor Fate and it was later shown to be Desaad disguised as Darkseid as well and during that encounter he showed the same powers as Darkseid. 

I don't know how it works but Desaad has been able to copy Darkseid's powers when he has disguised himself as him.   

And there are many other feats Darkseid has that I could show you which were also in instances written by John Byrne which put him far above Superman.  

So people should stop trying to use that instance Byrne wrote which was later revealed to be Desaad. "    

prime

" prime "

" @MrDirector786 said:   

  He beat the Greek Gods on two occasions. One was in Action comics 600, another was during the Countdown. 

  
He did not defeat the gods in AC 600, they were not present when he marched into Olympus. His own ego lead him to believe that they had fled from him. 
 

In Countdown itself, his capture of the gods is completely off-panel and completely unexplained. I don't know if it was shown or described elsewhere, but going off of Countdown makes it essentially a plot-device. Elsewhere in Countdown he is shown on-panel having difficulty with Mary Marvel and Superman, and he is ultimately killed by Orion. 
 

In fact, he has been known to have destroyed the Gods of countless other worlds and I have scans to show this too.  

From what I recall, when Thor was resurrected, he fought about evenly with Big Barda, so most of the gods are probably not all that powerful anyway, outside of the skyfathers. I haven't seen a lot of them in DC, so I can't say for sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if it is a similar situation to Marvel (or, for that matter, just the New Gods themselves). Darkseid taking many of these, especially with a lot of prep and his armies, isn't so surprising, even if he is only a higher-tier Superman level.

Doomsday defeated an avatar of Darkseid.  

If you're going with the avatar route, then all appearances are avatars, so it doesn't matter, because then Avatar Darkseid is the only one that can be meaningfully discussed anyway.
 

I'm no expert on Ares but Ares has shown to be a threat to the rest of the Greek Gods before and they've been powerless to stop him so it's possible he's more powerful than them too.  

I'm not either, but I have a hard time believing he is more powerful than Zeus, Hades, or Poseidon. 
 

That was Desaad. When Desaad disguised himself as Darkseid, he's shown to have gained his abilities before somehow as well. He once had an encounter with Doctor Fate and it was later shown to be Desaad disguised as Darkseid as well and during that encounter he showed the same powers as Darkseid. 

No, that was quite different, and retconning that makes perfect sense. In fact, simply dubbing it non-canon would have worked as well, since the story itself is pretty lousy. Let's break it down: 
 
1) Darkseid acts out of character the whole time. 
2) Apokolips looks nothing like Apokolips.
3) Parademons don't look much like parademons.
4) Darkseid never uses the Omega Effect. 
5) Darkseid mainly fights an incredibly weak and pathetic version of Fate who can barely handle a pack of parademons on his own. 
6) Darkseid is defeated by the power of love. I'm not even kidding. 
 

 
Clearly there are some problems with that story arc, even aside from how powerful Darkseid is or is not supposed to be. The only problem with the Superman fight is people who think DS should be invincible to Superman. All you have to do there is accept that full-strength blows from Supes are capable of staggering him, as they have been shown to do on many other occasions, and everything is fine.
 

I don't know how it works but Desaad has been able to copy Darkseid's powers when he has disguised himself as him.   

I think that's a pretty friggin' big plot hole you're willing to casually gloss over. The Omega Effect should be the exclusive domain of Darkseid, at least as much, if not moreso, than the Astroforce is the exclusive power of Orion.

And there are many other feats Darkseid has that I could show you which were also in instances written by John Byrne which put him far above Superman.  

Go ahead. The whole problem so far has been that you guys have been making a lot of claims without backing them up. Why should we all just take your word for it, when many of us have seen for ourselves quite a few issues where Darkseid is simply not as powerful as you are saying?

So people should stop trying to use that instance Byrne wrote which was later revealed to be Desaad. "    

If you could provide an issue # for that while you're at it, that would be great. I know I've seen the scan before, but I haven't been able to find it in a while.     Oh, and could someone show proof that Darkseid is actually capable of psychic assault during battle? "

" @jayskee said:

" prime "

Easily. "

" @MrDirector786:  Ahh you see but your jumping to conclusion. Teleportation is not the samething as transmutation. Darkseid moved Superman or the aura that is Superman from 1 location to another but the aura itself cannot be altered. IF that happened that would be PIS because Superman is Invulnerable to anything but Magic, Krytponite, and red sunlight depowers him. Besides that u need enough force to break thru the aura which not much can do that.  You cannot assume because the teleportation worked it all works because if so Darkseid would have done it already. 2....ive told you why Darkseid isnt stronger than Superman. Superman can boost his power if he wanted 2 by absorbing more sunlight. DS is not stronger Than Superman. Lobo is no where near Supermans strength level. Superman fights with characters several times weaker than him and lets them smack him around because he is invulnerable and they are not. Superboy is not Superman. Superboy has no strength he has tactile telekinesis. Just recently in the comics he has been getting his krytpontian powers of Super strength and sutff.  And no offense you cant say DS smacked around Superman and made him bleed because Superman has made darkseid bleed and smashed in Darkseids face. DS does not beat Superman easily what so ever. They are pretty equal and ill stay with my vote on the matter between who is stronger. "

" @LONGTIME said:

" @jayskee said:

" prime "

Easily. "

No. Prime gets turned into a table. The only way he can win is if Darkseid decides to fight him h2h. "

"@entropy_aegis said: 

Geoff loeb?LOL. 

 I've been reading a lot of Geoff Johns' work lately, and it can be hard to keep track of how all the different Geoffs and Jephs and Jeffs spell their names anyway.
 

 well either way this guy barely had a crack at the characters so what he writes is quite meaningless. 

And just who wrote all these issues where Darkseid purportedly displayed this massive power you keep talking about? Jack Kirby didn't. Neither did John Byrne. Grant Morrison seems to like to claim that Darkseid is an uber-duber powerful cosmic badass, and yet when it came down to actual, on-panel events, he still had Darkseid lose to Superman (and actually die, in this case). Kind of hard to reconcile what he said with what he showed.
 

the effect works ,obviously he's going to port him,he's paralyzed him on an occasion too,he erased agog who's>supes with his effect.that's the whole point which they're trying to convey,he can get rid of him anytime. 

If writer's pedigree is so important to you, mind sharing who wrote the Agog thing? And I already conceded the teleport effect seems to work just fine. You haven't shown that any of the other abilities of the Omega Effect would work, or at least not to the degree you seem to suggest. Superman has been shown to both withstand them, and outmaneuver them, more than once.

and again i dont know why doomsday is being used,he holds as much relevance as prometheus.  

Doomsday is used because he is another Superman level character that has given Darkseid a hard time. He's on the higher end of the spectrum, but not so much that he curbstomps Superman, meaning if he's within Superman's threat range, so is Darkseid. 
 
He also showed up in the issue when DS blasted Henshaw, which is something you guys brought up. If you're going to bring up a feat from a certain issue, then that whole issue should be fair game.
 

and  that dessad incident was retconned away,i wonder why. 

I do wonder why. It was written by John Byrne, and there was nothing particularly wrong with it, unless you're in love with the idea of Darkseid's supremacy. The retcon raises more questions than it solves, because it suggests that Desaad is a Superman level character who has access to the Omega Effect. I can't believe you guys don't see a problem with that. 
 

his hard fights with orion are H2H matches,he's disposed off him quite easily when he wanted.  

Don't suppose you'd feel like showing those events? 
 

superman never engaged imperiex with doomsday,darkseid bailed him out on that occasion,and supes was'nt worn out after he and darkseid cracked imperiex cause kismet protected him. "    

Superman was saved yes, but still shot at and obviously took some of the blast. I don't know what makes you think he didn't exert himself at all during the attack on Imperiex, and I don't think he had much time to fully rest during the whole Imperiex affair anyway, so no, he definitely wasn't fresh for that encounter either. And he still didn't actually lose, he just got knocked over. He could have kept going. 
 
@entropy_aegis said: 

Yeah but we never saw it did we? and that same darkseid unloaded bruce wayne with enough energy to destroy the timeline of the entire universe.  "

 
Makes zero sense. If DS was a universal power, why let himself get killed by people that are barely planet-busters on a good day? Why not swat away New Genesis with a wave of his hand? Or Imperiex? Or any number of other opponents? You sure there wasn't something else going on with that that you're not sharing? 
 
@MrDirector786 said:   

  He beat the Greek Gods on two occasions. One was in Action comics 600, another was during the Countdown. 

  
He did not defeat the gods in AC 600, they were not present when he marched into Olympus. His own ego lead him to believe that they had fled from him. 
 

In Countdown itself, his capture of the gods is completely off-panel and completely unexplained. I don't know if it was shown or described elsewhere, but going off of Countdown makes it essentially a plot-device. Elsewhere in Countdown he is shown on-panel having difficulty with Mary Marvel and Superman, and he is ultimately killed by Orion. 
 

In fact, he has been known to have destroyed the Gods of countless other worlds and I have scans to show this too.  

From what I recall, when Thor was resurrected, he fought about evenly with Big Barda, so most of the gods are probably not all that powerful anyway, outside of the skyfathers. I haven't seen a lot of them in DC, so I can't say for sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if it is a similar situation to Marvel (or, for that matter, just the New Gods themselves). Darkseid taking many of these, especially with a lot of prep and his armies, isn't so surprising, even if he is only a higher-tier Superman level.

Doomsday defeated an avatar of Darkseid.  

If you're going with the avatar route, then all appearances are avatars, so it doesn't matter, because then Avatar Darkseid is the only one that can be meaningfully discussed anyway.
 

I'm no expert on Ares but Ares has shown to be a threat to the rest of the Greek Gods before and they've been powerless to stop him so it's possible he's more powerful than them too.  

I'm not either, but I have a hard time believing he is more powerful than Zeus, Hades, or Poseidon. 
 

That was Desaad. When Desaad disguised himself as Darkseid, he's shown to have gained his abilities before somehow as well. He once had an encounter with Doctor Fate and it was later shown to be Desaad disguised as Darkseid as well and during that encounter he showed the same powers as Darkseid. 

No, that was quite different, and retconning that makes perfect sense. In fact, simply dubbing it non-canon would have worked as well, since the story itself is pretty lousy. Let's break it down: 
 
1) Darkseid acts out of character the whole time. 
2) Apokolips looks nothing like Apokolips.
3) Parademons don't look much like parademons.
4) Darkseid never uses the Omega Effect. 
5) Darkseid mainly fights an incredibly weak and pathetic version of Fate who can barely handle a pack of parademons on his own. 
6) Darkseid is defeated by the power of love. I'm not even kidding. 
 

 
Clearly there are some problems with that story arc, even aside from how powerful Darkseid is or is not supposed to be. The only problem with the Superman fight is people who think DS should be invincible to Superman. All you have to do there is accept that full-strength blows from Supes are capable of staggering him, as they have been shown to do on many other occasions, and everything is fine.
 

I don't know how it works but Desaad has been able to copy Darkseid's powers when he has disguised himself as him.   

I think that's a pretty friggin' big plot hole you're willing to casually gloss over. The Omega Effect should be the exclusive domain of Darkseid, at least as much, if not moreso, than the Astroforce is the exclusive power of Orion.

And there are many other feats Darkseid has that I could show you which were also in instances written by John Byrne which put him far above Superman.  

Go ahead. The whole problem so far has been that you guys have been making a lot of claims without backing them up. Why should we all just take your word for it, when many of us have seen for ourselves quite a few issues where Darkseid is simply not as powerful as you are saying?

So people should stop trying to use that instance Byrne wrote which was later revealed to be Desaad. "    

If you could provide an issue # for that while you're at it, that would be great. I know I've seen the scan before, but I haven't been able to find it in a while.     Oh, and could someone show proof that Darkseid is actually capable of psychic assault during battle? "

" @supermandefender said:

" @MrDirector786:  Ahh you see but your jumping to conclusion. Teleportation is not the samething as transmutation. Darkseid moved Superman or the aura that is Superman from 1 location to another but the aura itself cannot be altered. IF that happened that would be PIS because Superman is Invulnerable to anything but Magic, Krytponite, and red sunlight depowers him. Besides that u need enough force to break thru the aura which not much can do that.  You cannot assume because the teleportation worked it all works because if so Darkseid would have done it already. 2....ive told you why Darkseid isnt stronger than Superman. Superman can boost his power if he wanted 2 by absorbing more sunlight. DS is not stronger Than Superman. Lobo is no where near Supermans strength level. Superman fights with characters several times weaker than him and lets them smack him around because he is invulnerable and they are not. Superboy is not Superman. Superboy has no strength he has tactile telekinesis. Just recently in the comics he has been getting his krytpontian powers of Super strength and sutff.  And no offense you cant say DS smacked around Superman and made him bleed because Superman has made darkseid bleed and smashed in Darkseids face. DS does not beat Superman easily what so ever. They are pretty equal and ill stay with my vote on the matter between who is stronger. "

The fact you think supes being transmuted is PIS alone tells me that arguing with you is pointless. "

Prime