@Shawnbaby: No need to get aggressive mate. It seems the point that both Lvenger and Buckshot were trying to make is that while only taking that one panel in consideration, Superman has yet to have been man-handled to that degree by anyone save for Darkseid. On top of that, it's worth noting how relaxed and unforced the back-hand was from Helspont and the impact it had on Kal.
@Buckshot: As stated time and time again now..I was only commenting on the Hit knocking him to the moon. Yes, that blow gave Supes a concussion...but that is not seen on the scan presented. I was only commenting on how, without any context at all, that scan doesn't show any real impressive feat being performed by Helspont. If the intent is to show that the blow gave Supes a concussion...then that should have been included in the scan. Let me show you.
Now,with this presentation it is clear that the blow gave Superman a concussion. Can we move on now?
@Shawnbaby: No need to get aggressive mate. It seems the point that both Lvenger and Buckshot were trying to make is that while only taking that one panel in consideration, Superman has yet to have been man-handled to that degree by anyone save for Darkseid. On top of that, it's worth noting how relaxed and unforced the back-hand was from Helspont and the impact it had on Kal.
From my perspective, they started getting aggressive with me first.
@Shawnbaby: No matter who threw the first blow, was it really necessary to repeat said nature? Just keep it calm, clean and respectful as there's no reason for anyone to be worked up for such a miniscule reason.
@Shawnbaby: No matter who threw the first blow, was it really necessary to repeat said nature? Just keep it calm, clean and respectful as there's no reason for anyone to be worked up for such a miniscule reason.
It's fine. I'll be happy to apologize to them for any misunderstandings that took place...provided they are willing to do the same.
Seriously... How? At this point, I'm pretty sure we've established Helspont is the nastiest contender we've seen to date. Superman NEVER faired well against Helspont. Helspont was toying with him the entire time. He literally let Kal throw everything he had to no effect, then grew bored, and ended it without effort. At this point, I'm actually worried they're making him out to be as powerful as he was in Wildstorm. If he's ripping stars aparrt with his hands alone and soloing Majestic in the DC mainverse, we may have to seeSuperman, Apollo, Martian Manhunter, Captain Atom, Shazam, Firestorm, Captain Comet, and a New 52 version of Mr. Majestic team up to take him down.
Seriously... How? At this point, I'm pretty sure we've established Helspont is the nastiest contender we've seen to date. Superman NEVER faired well against Helspont. Helspont was toying with him the entire time. He literally let Kal throw everything he had to no effect, then grew bored, and ended it without effort. At this point, I'm actually worried they're making him out to be as powerful as he was in Wildstorm. If he's ripping stars aparrt with his hands alone and soloing Majestic in the DC mainverse, we may have to seeSuperman, Apollo, Martian Manhunter, Captain Atom, Shazam, Firestorm, Captain Comet, and a New 52 version of Mr. Majestic team up to take him down.
That would be an incredible battle filled with explosions.
Seriously... How? At this point, I'm pretty sure we've established Helspont is the nastiest contender we've seen to date. Superman NEVER faired well against Helspont. Helspont was toying with him the entire time. He literally let Kal throw everything he had to no effect, then grew bored, and ended it without effort. At this point, I'm actually worried they're making him out to be as powerful as he was in Wildstorm. If he's ripping stars aparrt with his hands alone and soloing Majestic in the DC mainverse, we may have to seeSuperman, Apollo, Martian Manhunter, Captain Atom, Shazam, Firestorm, Captain Comet, and a New 52 version of Mr. Majestic team up to take him down.
I'm not saying it would be easy, but correct me if i'm wrong, after a pretty long battle Darkseid's omega beams should be able to get him.
@PrimeDirective: Both Helspont and Darkseid possesses very few feats and not enough information can be established to dictate a proper outcome. But regarding how easily Helpsont dispatched Kal in the Annual, I'd also like to bring up how easily Darkseid brushed off the entire Justice League and ignored their efforts for the most part.
I still think it's too soon to decide on a winner between these two...they both need more showings...especially Darkseid. Helspont did well against Superman...but after that concussion-causing blow Helspont hit him with...Superman said he no longer needed to hold back at all....which implies that he had been up to that point. Still, Helspont certainly has a considerable amount of Power.
Darkseid, on the other hand, was holding his own against the entire League...and was also able to knock out Superman...twice. And manhandle him while fighting the rest of the League.
I still think it's too soon to decide on a winner between these two...they both need more showings...especially Darkseid. Helspont did well against Superman...but after that concussion-causing blow Helspont hit him with...Superman said he no longer needed to hold back at all....which implies that he had been up to that point. Still, Helspont certainly has a considerable amount of Power.
Darkseid, on the other hand, was holding his own against the entire League...and was also able to knock out Superman...twice. And manhandle him while fighting the rest of the League.
Gallery
Superman said he could stop holding back, sure, but you can't hold back your durability, so Helspont effortlessly knocking him out (like he did at least once, but I think more than that, in their previous fight) is as straightforward as it seems. Superman also said he could cut loose when facing the machine Helspont sent just to test him before fighting Helspont himself. I think Helspont is aware of Superman's full ability and is confident that he's well above it, going off the comment he made before easily beating him. And even when Superman faces him after saying he can stop holding back, his physical attacks are easily held off with Helspont's telekinesis and his laser vision is seemingly ignored.
I still think it's too soon to decide on a winner between these two...they both need more showings...especially Darkseid. Helspont did well against Superman...but after that concussion-causing blow Helspont hit him with...Superman said he no longer needed to hold back at all....which implies that he had been up to that point. Still, Helspont certainly has a considerable amount of Power.
Darkseid, on the other hand, was holding his own against the entire League...and was also able to knock out Superman...twice. And manhandle him while fighting the rest of the League.
Gallery
Superman said he could stop holding back, sure, but you can't hold back your durability, so Helspont effortlessly knocking him out (like he did at least once, but I think more than that, in their previous fight) is as straightforward as it seems. Superman also said he could cut loose when facing the machine Helspont sent just to test him before fighting Helspont himself. I think Helspont is aware of Superman's full ability and is confident that he's well above it, going off the comment he made before easily beating him. And even when Superman faces him after saying he can stop holding back, his physical attacks are easily held off with Helspont's telekinesis and his laser vision is seemingly ignored.
I've never stated that Helspont was not impressive. All I said was up until that point Superman was seemingly not going at him all out. And that's because Superman pretty much said as much himself.
Yes, It's impressive that Helspont knocked him out...but Darkseid knocked him out too...that's why I think we need to see more showings...so far, based on what I've seen, Darkseid has a very slight edge on Helspont...because he's fought the entire league and Helspont hasn't yet.
I've never stated that Helspont was not impressive
I didn't suggest otherwise.
All I said was up until that point Superman was seemingly not going at him all out. And that's because Superman pretty much said as much himself.
And he was just as ineffective after saying he could go all out.
based on what I've seen, Darkseid has a very slight edge on Helspont...because he's fought the entire league and Helspont hasn't yet.
Your opinion is reasonable. Mine differs because the ease at which Helspont KOed Superman seems to suggest far greater power, because Helspont has displayed a far greater range of abilities, and Darkseid's feat of fighting the entire league was duplicated by Martian Manhunter (though not shown to be as decisive) and MM was easily downed in a single shot by a character with only a portion of Helspont's power.
Even disregarding Martian Manhunter, I have absolutely no trouble believing that a character that can backhand Supes into unconsciousness can duplicate any of Darkseid's feats. That weirdly-drawn ground attack? If he can knock out Superman with a slap, I think any kind of explosion he produced could easily do the same and also knockout people presumably weaker than Superman. Brutalizing Hal Jordan? Easy if he can knock out Superman without trying. As for him taking on the rest of the league, I don't see why Aquaman with a trident, Flash with a street sign, Hal Jordan's chainsaw, Cyborg's white noise or Wonder Woman's lariat or sword would do anything to him that Superman (after saying he could stop holding back) blasting with laser vision couldn't. And if he could stop Superman's physical attacks (again, after saying he could stop holding back) with telekinesis, I don't see why he couldn't do the same to the rest of the JL's attacks. So while we have little to work with for the characters, I think Helspont's displays show he can do anything Darkseid can (except maybe chase down Flash and Supes with an energy attack).
@Buckshot: I dunno...Both times DS knocked out Superman were pretty easy for him too...that's why I think it's just too close to call. Both of them seem to be on a much higher level than Clark is at any rate...so it's kind of hard using him as the baseline to compare them.
@Buckshot: I dunno...Both times DS knocked out Superman were pretty easy for him too...that's why I think it's just too close to call. Both of them seem to be on a much higher level than Clark is at any rate...so it's kind of hard using him as the baseline to compare them.
You think causing an explosion or hitting him with an energy blast takes the same effort as a backhand? I imagine a backhand would require far less effort/be easier than either of those displays, but I guess we see things differently.
@Buckshot: I dunno...Both times DS knocked out Superman were pretty easy for him too...that's why I think it's just too close to call. Both of them seem to be on a much higher level than Clark is at any rate...so it's kind of hard using him as the baseline to compare them.
You think causing an explosion or hitting him with an energy blast takes the same effort as a backhand? I imagine a backhand would require far less effort/be easier than either of those displays, but I guess we see things differently.
Not saying that...I'm just saying it wasn't as though Darkseid was really seeming to exert himself in any of his encounters with Superman either. It suggests we haven't seen the full capabilities of either one of them...which, again, is why I think it's too soon to declare a victor. I'm not saying Helspont loses...I'm just not yet willing to say he wins either.
Also, what issue do Helspont and Supes have that second rematch where Superman isn't holding back anymore?
While I would like to just say Darkseid out of my contempt for anything Wildstorm, I am probably going to go with Helspont anyway's since Johns/Lee did not do enough to establish Darkseid as a threat in the New52 the same way Helspont has been by 3 different teams. I mean if you look at it, Darkseid booms in says his name and causes some kind of shockwave, then Flash and Supes have to outrun his Omegabeams resulting in Superman getting sent to Apokalips, Hal then goes 1 on 1 with the walking refrigerator and looses badly, and then finally Darkseid gets dogpiled before being forcibly boomed home. Problem for Darkseid is partially that Johns/Lee have done very little to impose that the League members are very powerful and most of the time they are getting slapped around by nobodies...even Hal doesnt appear to have the juice he once had and all his constructs are made of glass. (In a way I think Johns/Lee are relying too much on feats from the old universe they erased)
Not saying that...I'm just saying it wasn't as though Darkseid was really seeming to exert himself in any of his encounters with Superman either. It suggests we haven't seen the full capabilities of either one of them...which, again, is why I think it's too soon to declare a victor. I'm not saying Helspont loses...I'm just not yet willing to say he wins either.
Also, what issue do Helspont and Supes have that second rematch where Superman isn't holding back anymore?
They haven't to my knowledge. When Superman confronted Helspont again, Helspont revealed his Daemonite agents plan, telepathically made Superman experience their deaths and then explain his masterplan, basically saying that his plan's not to destroy or take over the Earth but to let the metagene in humanity grow. Superman acts as a proverbial 'shephard' to the flock so Helspont's fine with him being Earth's protector and all that so he can come and collect his harvest later.
Also @Buckshot I heard a user on here describe Helspont as the equivalent of Superman's Ra'as Al Ghul. Being a WildStorm expert, do you think that's an apt description?
Also, what issue do Helspont and Supes have that second rematch where Superman isn't holding back anymore?
The annual. They have a round 2 after Superman says he can stop holding back, he just doesn't do anything impressive. He tries to laser blast Helspont and it's completely ineffective and when he tries to punch him he's even less effective.
@Outside_85 said:
I am probably going to go with Helspont anyway's since Johns/Lee did not do enough to establish Darkseid as a threat in the New52 the same way Helspont has been by 3 different teams. I mean if you look at it, Darkseid booms in says his name and causes some kind of shockwave, then Flash and Supes have to outrun his Omegabeams resulting in Superman getting sent to Apokalips, Hal then goes 1 on 1 with the walking refrigerator and looses badly, and then finally Darkseid gets dogpiled before being forcibly boomed home. Problem for Darkseid is partially that Johns/Lee have done very little to impose that the League members are very powerful and most of the time they are getting slapped around by nobodies...even Hal doesnt appear to have the juice he once had and all his constructs are made of glass. (In a way I think Johns/Lee are relying too much on feats from the old universe they erased)
Agreed.
@Lvenger said:
Also @Buckshot I heard a user on here describe Helspont as the equivalent of Superman's Ra'as Al Ghul. Being a WildStorm expert, do you think that's an apt description?
I feel like Helspont is going to replace Darkseid as Superman's and the main universes primary baddie.
Possibly. I never like Darkseid being affiliated as a Superman villain anyway. He should be a cosmic threat, a big bad, sparingly used. Helspont can be said to follow the same lines but he's less well known than Darkseid and will probably merit some team up to defeat him anyway. Plus this could allow for the Kherubians to be brought in and the introduction of Mr Majestic to the New 52 universe.
I feel like Helspont is going to replace Darkseid as Superman's and the main universes primary baddie.
Possibly. I never like Darkseid being affiliated as a Superman villain anyway. He should be a cosmic threat, a big bad, sparingly used. Helspont can be said to follow the same lines but he's less well known than Darkseid and will probably merit some team up to defeat him anyway. Plus this could allow for the Kherubians to be brought in and the introduction of Mr Majestic to the New 52 universe.
I was wondering about Majestic myself. He is too important to just cast aside. But I have a feeling that if he does return, it will be as an enemy to Clark. It would make sense, what with their diffrent views on crime fighting.
I feel like Helspont is going to replace Darkseid as Superman's and the main universes primary baddie.
Possibly. I never like Darkseid being affiliated as a Superman villain anyway. He should be a cosmic threat, a big bad, sparingly used. Helspont can be said to follow the same lines but he's less well known than Darkseid and will probably merit some team up to defeat him anyway. Plus this could allow for the Kherubians to be brought in and the introduction of Mr Majestic to the New 52 universe.
I was wondering about Majestic myself. He is too important to just cast aside. But I have a feeling that if he does return, it will be as an enemy to Clark. It would make sense, what with their diffrent views on crime fighting.
True. And there's the power difference of course. If Majestic is at least equal to Helspont, he'll outclass Superman in every way. Something that's technically accurate but a tad annoying for us Superman fans.
I feel like Helspont is going to replace Darkseid as Superman's and the main universes primary baddie.
Possibly. I never like Darkseid being affiliated as a Superman villain anyway. He should be a cosmic threat, a big bad, sparingly used. Helspont can be said to follow the same lines but he's less well known than Darkseid and will probably merit some team up to defeat him anyway. Plus this could allow for the Kherubians to be brought in and the introduction of Mr Majestic to the New 52 universe.
I was wondering about Majestic myself. He is too important to just cast aside. But I have a feeling that if he does return, it will be as an enemy to Clark. It would make sense, what with their diffrent views on crime fighting.
True. And there's the power difference of course. If Majestic is at least equal to Helspont, he'll outclass Superman in every way. Something that's technically accurate but a tad annoying for us Superman fans.
I think what makes Clark truly powerful is his ''spirit." I know that that sounds corny; but to me, Superman will win because he dose not know how to give up. Majestic, Helspont, don't have any real heart, and that's what makes them weak.
@Guardiandevil83: Lol, and what is your basis for saying Majestic doesn't have "real heart"? Hell, even Helspont has passion for his own causes, they just happen to focus on his people's glorification and not humans.
@Buckshot: Easy does it there Buckshot. What Guardian's trying to say is that Superman is unwilling to back down and step aside and not do the right thing. And although Majestic does act as the protector of the WildStorm earth, he does look down on humanity and do what he think is best. That might be applied in the New 52 and I think we can agree Majestic could definitely beat New 52 Superman as well as Pre New 52 Superman. That's what I find to be the problem in the New 52 when (I say when because the fact Helspont is in the DCNU is enough indication that Majestic will show up) they meet. The power level difference will be significantly large and aside from his other abilities, Majestic is in essence a more powerful version of Superman.
@Jayfournines: Also, Helspont has just casually mentioned Apokalips and New Genesis like they were just another place he knew of/had visited. While not a feat in of itself, Helspont sounded none-too-impressed with either place. Anyone who can take a "yeah, whatever..." attitude about Apokalips either is grossly ignorant to its dangers, or is too much of a monster himself to consider it worth his time. If it's the latter, OH DEAR GOD!!!
Also, what issue do Helspont and Supes have that second rematch where Superman isn't holding back anymore?
The annual. They have a round 2 after Superman says he can stop holding back, he just doesn't do anything impressive. He tries to laser blast Helspont and it's completely ineffective and when he tries to punch him he's even less effective.
Oh ok...I thought you meant they had another fight in another issue.
@Buckshot: Easy does it there Buckshot. What Guardian's trying to say is that Superman is unwilling to back down and step aside and not do the right thing. And although Majestic does act as the protector of the WildStorm earth, he does look down on humanity and do what he think is best. That might be applied in the New 52 and I think we can agree Majestic could definitely beat New 52 Superman as well as Pre New 52 Superman. That's what I find to be the problem in the New 52 when (I say when because the fact Helspont is in the DCNU is enough indication that Majestic will show up) they meet. The power level difference will be significantly large and aside from his other abilities, Majestic is in essence a more powerful version of Superman.
What is with people trying to calm me for asking questions? I asked to hear what his thought process was for saying Majestic doesn't have real heart since the only criteria present in his post was "not knowing how to give up", something that Majestic also has. As for your criteria, it's basically the same. Being unwilling to back down and not do the right thing is something that could easily be said about Majestic. With your comments about Majestic being superior or doing what he thinks is best, you seem to be driving at something separate though, something more like compassion than perseverance. If what you mean by "heart" is perseverance, you can't really claim Majestic doesn't have it. If what you mean by "heart" is compassion, then you might actually have a point. This is why I asked what the basis was for saying Majestic doesn't have "heart", for clarification, for me and for you, because I'm not entirely sure you guys know what you're talking about.
On compassion though, even if Majestic were as cold-hearted as you seem to think he is, I don't really see how looking down on humanity or doing what he thinks is best would make him weak. I'd be curious to see what you base this perception of Majestic on. Not that I think you're entirely wrong, mind you, but you say something like "doing what he thinks he's right" in such a way that it makes me think you're of the opinion either that he's wrong or that he's infringing on someone's liberties when he does so, when I don't believe that's the case often enough to define his character by it.
@Shawnbaby: Do you think giving Superman a concussion with a mere backhand is unimpressive as well?
Don't be putting words in my mouth...All I said was that one particular scan isn't that impressive. It's a feat that could be duplicated by countless amounts of characters.
I didn't put anything in your anything. I asked you a question. Defensive much?
It seemed to me as though you were taking an aggressive stance towards my position. The logical choice was for me to assume a defensive posture. If there has been a miscommunication of intent...well, I apologize for my part in it.
All this fencing and you still haven't answered the question. Sure the image only showed the hit, but you reported that you looked it up which would show that Superman got KTFO by the hit. Whether or not that small snippet of the hit was impressive, the hit itself was. You can fool around with "I'm just talking about that one image in isolation" if you want, but it represents a clearly impressive feat and even without the rest of it you can tell that the writer/artist are trying to convey Helspont's ability even if the actual power needed to hit someone into the moon isn't the more impressive thing we've ever seen. But whatevs, this is foolishness.
@toptom:
Helspont expressed other reasons for like Superman (his familiarity with Kryptonians, Superman also being more or less alone on Earth) but these motivations are irrelevant to the larger discussion. If you want to say that Superman is in fact the most powerful character in all possible terms, you'd need to actually prove it. You'd have to prove that characters like Firestorm, Green Lantern, Captain Atom, Cain, Martian Manhunter, Jenny Quantum, Andrew Bennet, any of the magical characters aren't more powerful than him and that he can't be beaten by them. You act like I'm saying Helspont made an error. I'm not, I'm just applying the word "powerful" in the way that makes the most sense given that other characters have shown more power than him in nonphysical ways. The EASIEST way for you to prove me wrong and shut me up would be to show how Supes is more powerful than characters like the ones I've listed. Simple.
The rest of your nonsense is about Superman being able to beat Martian Manhunter. So, telepathy first, MM didn't need physical contact for all his feats so acting like that's a limitation is just foolishness. But I'll entertain your foolishness. Even if he needed it, why would that be a problem? Superman has one ranged attack and he typically fights with his fists, so MM would be able to lay hands on him. You'll need to prove Superman's resistance because he's shown vulnerability to telepathic attack every time I've seen it used on him and only beat it on one occasion when he went on instinct, something that there's no evidence to prove would work against MM. Until you can somehow show that MM would have a problem affecting Superman's mind, it's pretty likely it would work. On to intangibility, you simply have no answer to that at all other than "he might still be vulnerable to heat vision" even though there's no evidence of that at all. Work on proving your claims.
Now to this Midnighter thing you can't let go of. A character not doing something is not necessarily evidence of inability. Where is the proof that MM couldn't go intangible? I'm not going to get into how MM's response after the strike suggests that he was curious to see if Midnighter could actually pull it off because I understand that's a subjective interpretation of the scene and you have enough trouble with things that can beobjectively shown. I'll move on to the obvious question of "If MM had time to make a psychic projection, to talk to Midnighter, AND to move his brain, why would he not have time to go intangible?" He clearly chose not to, and you can use whatever reason you want to, but I'll stick with "he clearly didn't need to" since he had already protected himself by moving his brain. My point was that MM has the capability of turning intangible and avoiding attacks. Him not choosing to in one instance doesn't make my point invalid. Try harder. As for the idea that Midnighter doing more damage that Apollo meaning he is stronger, that's just rubbish. Think about Karnak or Karate Kid. There are characters that can do a lot more damage simply because they hit weak spots and not because of greater strength and they established pretty clearly that Midnighter was hitting a weak spot.
This is just...sad.
yes helspont is familiar with kryptonians,and from what he said it seemed that they are the only one that could possibily represent a threat for him.but as you said this is irrelevant to this discussion.
i have never said that superman is the most powerfull under ALL the aspects. i have just said that for now he is the most powerfull between the supr heroes (except cap atom of course). that is different. if you compare firestorm matter manipulations against superman's hv ,firestorm would win but that doesnt mean he could win against superman,mostly thanks to superman's speed and strenght. the same can be told for jenny quantum,hal jordan or many of that magical users. i am not saing that they cannot beat him or that he must be invincible under all the terms,but if he uses his speed properly they wont make it in time to cast a spell or to change reality.they can kill him via magic?shure. he can kill them before they can do anything?yes. but anyway killing an opponents by exploiting his weacknesses doesn't prove nothing.
superman can beat mm. i don't understand why this is so so strange to hear. it is never happened that mm used all his powers in a straight way to be considered invincible. in the pre-52 universe mm was a jobber combarable only to darkseid,but maybe the things will change now. however new 52 mm hasn't never used his thelepaty in an offensive way,he has just read minds and he has removed memories from his comrades and opponents. so what is your point? superman was still trying to reach lois when he was under the other superman's power ( even if he could control the crowd without a problem) and he was even resisting to that flying monsters's thelepaty.
this midnighter thing is important to underline that even a character of his power level can damage j'honn.and if he can do that superman or hal jordan can do the same and better. since they know how much dangerous mm can be they will try to exploit all his weacknesses and they have the means to find them(it is also possible that they already know them). then you keep to say that he didn't used his intangibility because he wanted so.i say in that instance he wasn't enough fast to avoid his punch,but in the same moment it connected he squeezed his brain so he is still alive. he could not have this possibility with faster and stronger opponents. i have never said that midnighter is stronger than apollo of course.
yes helspont is familiar with kryptonians,and from what he said it seemed that they are the only one that could possibily represent a threat for him.but as you said this is irrelevant to this discussion.
i have never said that superman is the most powerfull under ALL the aspects. i have just said that for now he is the most powerfull between the supr heroes (except cap atom of course). that is different. if you compare firestorm matter manipulations against superman's hv ,firestorm would win but that doesnt mean he could win against superman,mostly thanks to superman's speed and strenght. the same can be told for jenny quantum,hal jordan or many of that magical users. i am not saing that they cannot beat him or that he must be invincible under all the terms,but if he uses his speed properly they wont make it in time to cast a spell or to change reality.they can kill him via magic?shure. he can kill them before they can do anything?yes. but anyway killing an opponents by exploiting his weacknesses doesn't prove nothing.
superman can beat mm. i don't understand why this is so so strange to hear. it is never happened that mm used all his powers in a straight way to be considered invincible. in the pre-52 universe mm was a jobber combarable only to darkseid,but maybe the things will change now. however new 52 mm hasn't never used his thelepaty in an offensive way,he has just read minds and he has removed memories from his comrades and opponents. so what is your point? superman was still trying to reach lois when he was under the other superman's power ( even if he could control the crowd without a problem) and he was even resisting to that flying monsters's thelepaty.
this midnighter thing is important to underline that even a character of his power level can damage j'honn.and if he can do that superman or hal jordan can do the same and better. since they know how much dangerous mm can be they will try to exploit all his weacknesses and they have the means to find them(it is also possible that they already know them). then you keep to say that he didn't used his intangibility because he wanted so.i say in that instance he wasn't enough fast to avoid his punch,but in the same moment it connected he squeezed his brain so he is still alive. he could not have this possibility with faster and stronger opponents. i have never said that midnighter is stronger than apollo of course.
Your whole first paragraph basically proves my point. You even admit Cap Atom is more powerful than Superman...making Superman not the most powerful. If, according to you, being able to beat Superman using magic (which isn't his weakness) doesn't make a character more powerful than him, then being able to beat a more powerful character using speed wouldn't make Superman more powerful, would it? Even the assumption that he could kill all the characters that are more powerful than him by speed is reaching since some of them (more the magic ones) may not be easily killed by a really quick punch. That's just an extra point though.
And on (and on and on and on...) with MM again. So even though MM has used intangibility while fighting Superman, you think it's unbelievable that he could do so in order to actually beat him? You're basing your "Superman always wins" stance on some shoddy logic. In your first paragraph you support Superman being able to beat characters by his ability to go faster than them, even though he doesn't use it this way against opponent's that aren't fast. But now you're saying MM won't use intangibility because he doesn't use his powers this way (even though that's EXACTLY what he did in his only fight with Superman). You're ignoring Superman's character to say he's the most powerful while in the same breath trying (and failing, since MM has actually done what you say he won't) to limit MM by his character. Riiiiiiiiiiiight... The second example of shoddy logic is basing your opinions of these characters on older versions of them that aren't involved in this fight. So all in all, your attempt to downplay Superman's complete lack of an answer to MM's intangibility is a complete failure. As for his telepathy, sure MM hasn't really used it (very) offensively so far that I can recall, but I didn't say he needs to, did I? He has done a number of other things that would be useful. In Green Lantern Corps he calmed Guy Gardener even though he wanted to fight him. He's also removed and implanted memories and information from/in the minds of others. He's also created believable psychic illusions. Using just those few examples, he could remove Superman's desire to fight him (or even the knowledge of who he is), trick him into thinking he was fighting him elsewhere (allowing MM to strike unchallenged), and he could also overload Superman's mind with thoughts he can't handle like Helspont did (like the eon's of rage-fuel he saw in Atrocitus' mind, or his own personal torments, or maybe just the thoughts of everyone on the planet). MM's "non-offensive" psychic attacks would be more than useful. BUT, to think he doesn't have any offensive capability is kind of silly given that the Shadow Cabinet, who know more about him than anyone else it seems, believed his threat that he would destroy their minds. Your attempt to downplay Superman's complete lack of an answer to MM's psychic abilities has also failed.Superman could easily find himself both unable to attack and unable to defend.
Midnighter being able to damage MM does not mean that Superman can. Midnighter was able to hit a weak spot in MMs face and do damage. Apollo, with seemingly much greater strength, also hit MM in the face and did no damage. This suggests to me that it's not just brute strength but also hitting the right spot correctly, that will achieve results...and that result would really only be a bloody nose anyway. I'm not saying that damage can't be done to MM, but Midnighter hitting a weak spot doesn't mean anyone punching in the general area could do the same...since someone tried and failed. And that's if MM even stays tangible, which he doesn't have to do. As for you thinking that Midnighter moved too quickly for MM, I think that's foolishness since MM performed at least 3 actions before Midnighter landed his strike, one of which removed the danger of Midnighter landing his punch, meaning that MM didn't need to turn intangible to save himself. Your kind of logic, applied to Superman would mean he wasn't fast enough to avoid Helspont's back hand, he wasn't fast enough to avoid MM's heat vision, he wasn't fast enough to trucks being thrown at him, etc, etc. I think it makes far more sense that sometimes characters (attempt to) tank hits. I know you didn't say Midnighter is stronger than Apollo, but what you did say was "when apollo landed that energy charged punch on him,mm seemed to block it with his arm unless you believe that midnighter is stronger than him" which is a statement that assumes the only way Midnighter could have done more damage is with greater strength. Since I don't think MM blocked with his arm, I provided an alternative explanation (consistent with a number of other comics) that would account for Midnighter doing more damage than Apollo without having greater strength.
@Guardiandevil83: Lol, and what is your basis for saying Majestic doesn't have "real heart"? Hell, even Helspont has passion for his own causes, they just happen to focus on his people's glorification and not humans.
I was a bit out of line with that. I mean that Superman fights for love. I know it''s corny, but it's true. My mother passed the summer of my high school graduation. I can't even imagine what I'd do to get
her back. And if someone I love were to ever be truly threatened, not even superior size or strength would save their attacker from me. Superman fights because only he can. He would die along with whoever is attacking his world before he lets anything happen to it. They are more powerful, I know this. But Superman is the ultimate plot device. If written, he would eventually win. Since this is a battle, they crush him. I'll admit that.
Not to go off topic in my own thread, but apparently the whole Superman vs. Doomsday death stuff is still canon in the New 52 according to Kal's conversation with Alec... That said, I wonder how this would turn out of Doomsday fought Helspont? Hmmm...
yes helspont is familiar with kryptonians,and from what he said it seemed that they are the only one that could possibily represent a threat for him.but as you said this is irrelevant to this discussion.
i have never said that superman is the most powerfull under ALL the aspects. i have just said that for now he is the most powerfull between the supr heroes (except cap atom of course). that is different. if you compare firestorm matter manipulations against superman's hv ,firestorm would win but that doesnt mean he could win against superman,mostly thanks to superman's speed and strenght. the same can be told for jenny quantum,hal jordan or many of that magical users. i am not saing that they cannot beat him or that he must be invincible under all the terms,but if he uses his speed properly they wont make it in time to cast a spell or to change reality.they can kill him via magic?shure. he can kill them before they can do anything?yes. but anyway killing an opponents by exploiting his weacknesses doesn't prove nothing.
superman can beat mm. i don't understand why this is so so strange to hear. it is never happened that mm used all his powers in a straight way to be considered invincible. in the pre-52 universe mm was a jobber combarable only to darkseid,but maybe the things will change now. however new 52 mm hasn't never used his thelepaty in an offensive way,he has just read minds and he has removed memories from his comrades and opponents. so what is your point? superman was still trying to reach lois when he was under the other superman's power ( even if he could control the crowd without a problem) and he was even resisting to that flying monsters's thelepaty.
this midnighter thing is important to underline that even a character of his power level can damage j'honn.and if he can do that superman or hal jordan can do the same and better. since they know how much dangerous mm can be they will try to exploit all his weacknesses and they have the means to find them(it is also possible that they already know them). then you keep to say that he didn't used his intangibility because he wanted so.i say in that instance he wasn't enough fast to avoid his punch,but in the same moment it connected he squeezed his brain so he is still alive. he could not have this possibility with faster and stronger opponents. i have never said that midnighter is stronger than apollo of course.
Your whole first paragraph basically proves my point. You even admit Cap Atom is more powerful than Superman...making Superman not the most powerful. If, according to you, being able to beat Superman using magic (which isn't his weakness) doesn't make a character more powerful than him, then being able to beat a more powerful character using speed wouldn't make Superman more powerful, would it? Even the assumption that he could kill all the characters that are more powerful than him by speed is reaching since some of them (more the magic ones) may not be easily killed by a really quick punch. That's just an extra point though.
And on (and on and on and on...) with MM again. So even though MM has used intangibility while fighting Superman, you think it's unbelievable that he could do so in order to actually beat him? You're basing your "Superman always wins" stance on some shoddy logic. In your first paragraph you support Superman being able to beat characters by his ability to go faster than them, even though he doesn't use it this way against opponent's that aren't fast. But now you're saying MM won't use intangibility because he doesn't use his powers this way (even though that's EXACTLY what he did in his only fight with Superman). You're ignoring Superman's character to say he's the most powerful while in the same breath trying (and failing, since MM has actually done what you say he won't) to limit MM by his character. Riiiiiiiiiiiight... The second example of shoddy logic is basing your opinions of these characters on older versions of them that aren't involved in this fight. So all in all, your attempt to downplay Superman's complete lack of an answer to MM's intangibility is a complete failure. As for his telepathy, sure MM hasn't really used it (very) offensively so far that I can recall, but I didn't say he needs to, did I? He has done a number of other things that would be useful. In Green Lantern Corps he calmed Guy Gardener even though he wanted to fight him. He's also removed and implanted memories and information from/in the minds of others. He's also created believable psychic illusions. Using just those few examples, he could remove Superman's desire to fight him (or even the knowledge of who he is), trick him into thinking he was fighting him elsewhere (allowing MM to strike unchallenged), and he could also overload Superman's mind with thoughts he can't handle like Helspont did (like the eon's of rage-fuel he saw in Atrocitus' mind, or his own personal torments, or maybe just the thoughts of everyone on the planet). MM's "non-offensive" psychic attacks would be more than useful. BUT, to think he doesn't have any offensive capability is kind of silly given that the Shadow Cabinet, who know more about him than anyone else it seems, believed his threat that he would destroy their minds. Your attempt to downplay Superman's complete lack of an answer to MM's psychic abilities has also failed.Superman could easily find himself both unable to attack and unable to defend.
Midnighter being able to damage MM does not mean that Superman can. Midnighter was able to hit a weak spot in MMs face and do damage. Apollo, with seemingly much greater strength, also hit MM in the face and did no damage. This suggests to me that it's not just brute strength but also hitting the right spot correctly, that will achieve results...and that result would really only be a bloody nose anyway. I'm not saying that damage can't be done to MM, but Midnighter hitting a weak spot doesn't mean anyone punching in the general area could do the same...since someone tried and failed. And that's if MM even stays tangible, which he doesn't have to do. As for you thinking that Midnighter moved too quickly for MM, I think that's foolishness since MM performed at least 3 actions before Midnighter landed his strike, one of which removed the danger of Midnighter landing his punch, meaning that MM didn't need to turn intangible to save himself. Your kind of logic, applied to Superman would mean he wasn't fast enough to avoid Helspont's back hand, he wasn't fast enough to avoid MM's heat vision, he wasn't fast enough to trucks being thrown at him, etc, etc. I think it makes far more sense that sometimes characters (attempt to) tank hits. I know you didn't say Midnighter is stronger than Apollo, but what you did say was "when apollo landed that energy charged punch on him,mm seemed to block it with his arm unless you believe that midnighter is stronger than him" which is a statement that assumes the only way Midnighter could have done more damage is with greater strength. Since I don't think MM blocked with his arm, I provided an alternative explanation (consistent with a number of other comics) that would account for Midnighter doing more damage than Apollo without having greater strength.
i have told different times now that cap atom is obviusly stronger than kal or anyone else,but he left the earth in n # 12. so he doesn't represent a threat for helspont anymore. by the way magic IS one of his weakness, and he can beat that magic users the most of the times thanks to his speed ,so i believe that he is more powerfull even if they can take him down.
now i suppose that you are talking again of mm vs jla. i don't think that it is impossible for him to win this fight but i see kal as a more possible winner. mm has never used his powers in a proper way,he always let somebody to hit him or sometimes his thelepaty can be dangerous for him while superman uses his speed more often. kal has enough resistance to thelepaty and enough speed to render mm capability ineffective. as for mm's intangibilty if he would mindwhipe superman or punch him he has to be tangible and so he could be damaged,and we have yet to see if an adjusted dose of hv can ( or can not)affect him while he is phasing. when he calmed down guy garder or when he erased some memories he touched his opponents, however he has yet to use his thelepaty offensively in a battle. when he will do that i 'll consider that capacity as a threat.
and yes if midnighter can damage mm by exploiting his weakness it means that even superman or others can do the same if they knows about that spot or if they can discover it(this options are both possible for superman or hal). regarding that punch from apollo,it is not clear if he punched him in the face,the arm of mm seems to be right in front of his face so he could have just stopped it,and that seems to be more in line to the durabilty showed by him. "it's not just brute strength but also hitting the right spot correctly, that will achieve results...and that result would really only be a bloody nose anyway" i don think so since both kal or hal can punch him with greater strenght and greater speed so that he won't use his intangibility or "brain squeezing powers". by the way midnighter wounded him and salu koed him,both of this would not have happened to kal.
so i am just saying that what helspont said about superman is true despite that there are on earth some beings that can beat him if the got the chance.
i have told different times now that cap atom is obviusly stronger than kal or anyone else,but he left the earth in n # 12. so he doesn't represent a threat for helspont anymore. by the way magic IS one of his weakness, and he can beat that magic users the most of the times thanks to his speed ,so i believe that he is more powerfull even if they can take him down.
so i am just saying that what helspont said about superman is true despite that there are on earth some beings that can beat him if the got the chance.
Magic isn't a weakness, it's just something he doesn't have a resistance to, and either way the point remains, if speed allows him to beat someone otherwise more powerful than he is, then magic allowing someone else to beat him despite him being faster is just as legitimate. I think what Helspont said is true as well, but I think saying Superman is the most powerful applies only to physical ability, since there are several characters that are more powerful when it comes to various types of energy (basic energy, magical energy, psychic energy, etc).
@Buckshot: You're a very... passionate debater I think is the best way of putting it. And yes I did mean compassion for my 'heart' comment. Majestic's not the most sympathetic superhero around and the clash of attitudes between these two would not end well for Superman.
But now see your comment, in light of the context where this started doesn't make sense. (And fear not, I understand that you were speaking with regards to something I was not.) "Heart" was being used to say why Superman would always win. I was questioning what "heart" would let Superman win that Majestic does not have. Guardiandevil has since expounded on his original statement to say that the "heart" he meant is a love which basically boils down to the argument that the hero will always win because good will always triumph over evil and Superman is written to be a paragon of all things good and true and rubbish. His "heart" is a plot device and he freely states this to be the case. And I can accept this reasoning even if it is not my own. And I say yours doesn't make so much sense (to me) because in the context of what will allow a character to win, compassion doesn't work quite as well as Guardiandevil's heart-shaped plot device. But it doesn't need to make sense because that's not the case you're trying to make, I imagine. And this is why I asked my question in the first place, to know what the basis of "heart" was when it was brought up to see if it made sense and in what scenario it makes sense. As Guardiandevil stated, his "heart" would lead to a win for Superman in a comic that abides by the rules of heroes winning. In the scenario where such a thing is removed, it would be less effective.
But now see your comment, in light of the context where this started doesn't make sense. (And fear not, I understand that you were speaking with regards to something I was not.) "Heart" was being used to say why Superman would always win. I was questioning what "heart" would let Superman win that Majestic does not have. Guardiandevil has since expounded on his original statement to say that the "heart" he meant is a love which basically boils down to the argument that the hero will always win because good will always triumph over evil and Superman is written to be a paragon of all things good and true and rubbish. His "heart" is a plot device and he freely states this to be the case. And I can accept this reasoning even if it is not my own. And I say yours doesn't make so much sense (to me) because in the context of what will allow a character to win, compassion doesn't work quite as well as Guardiandevil's heart-shaped plot device. But it doesn't need to make sense because that's not the case you're trying to make, I imagine. And this is why I asked my question in the first place, to know what the basis of "heart" was when it was brought up to see if it made sense and in what scenario it makes sense. As Guardiandevil stated, his "heart" would lead to a win for Superman in a comic that abides by the rules of heroes winning. In the scenario where such a thing is removed, it would be less effective.
N@gga? Did you just say what I said, but smarter? lol
This is off topic but helspont reminds me alot of dormmmau from the marvel universe, not just his appearance but his powers, personality, and different colored text bubbles.
@darklord_apoc: Helspont has his own immense power source called the "Blue Flame" which even a small fraction bestowed upon one of his minions allowed that minion to mop the floor with Martian Manhunter. As for mental powers, he has telepathy and telekenesis so powerful, he's exterminated entire civilizations with a single thought. While not confirmed, it would appear Helspont may also have teleportation powers.
I still think it's too soon to decide on a winner between these two...they both need more showings...especially Darkseid. Helspont did well against Superman...but after that concussion-causing blow Helspont hit him with...Superman said he no longer needed to hold back at all....which implies that he had been up to that point. Still, Helspont certainly has a considerable amount of Power.
Darkseid, on the other hand, was holding his own against the entire League...and was also able to knock out Superman...twice. And manhandle him while fighting the rest of the League.
Gallery
Hey hun can you send these pictures of D.S beating the justice league to either my facebook or yahoo? Geniferparedes@yahoo.com is my email. I try and click on them here and it loads and loads and will not show/
@darklord_apoc: Helspont has his own immense power source called the "Blue Flame" which even a small fraction bestowed upon one of his minions allowed that minion to mop the floor with Martian Manhunter. As for mental powers, he has telepathy and telekenesis so powerful, he's exterminated entire civilizations with a single thought. While not confirmed, it would appear Helspont may also have teleportation powers.
Is Martian Manhunter still weak to fire? Or is does this blue flame have no qualities of real fire?
I just want to clarify a few things. First off, Darkseid wanted Superman alive, as he tells Superman that he will be taking him with him. Flash, Lantern, and Cyborg seemed to do nothing to Darkseid during the first fight, and only the god-forged weapons of WW and Aqua Man (IIRC his Trident was forged by/for one of the Greek Gods) hurt Darkseid, or were able to block his Omega Beams. Which makes sense, as Darkseid is supposed to be a god, and, at least in pre-nu52, the Greek Gods were some of the stronger ones in the universe.
Seeing the feats of Helspont, he probably has Darkseid, at least at this point, physically outclassed. But Darkseid has the Omega Beams, which would be a massive help.
@darklord_apoc: Helspont has his own immense power source called the "Blue Flame" which even a small fraction bestowed upon one of his minions allowed that minion to mop the floor with Martian Manhunter. As for mental powers, he has telepathy and telekenesis so powerful, he's exterminated entire civilizations with a single thought. While not confirmed, it would appear Helspont may also have teleportation powers.
Is Martian Manhunter still weak to fire? Or is does this blue flame have no qualities of real fire?
I just want to clarify a few things. First off, Darkseid wanted Superman alive, as he tells Superman that he will be taking him with him. Flash, Lantern, and Cyborg seemed to do nothing to Darkseid during the first fight, and only the god-forged weapons of WW and Aqua Man (IIRC his Trident was forged by/for one of the Greek Gods) hurt Darkseid, or were able to block his Omega Beams. Which makes sense, as Darkseid is supposed to be a god, and, at least in pre-nu52, the Greek Gods were some of the stronger ones in the universe.
Seeing the feats of Helspont, he probably has Darkseid, at least at this point, physically outclassed. But Darkseid has the Omega Beams, which would be a massive help.
Ok can we use pre crisis Darkseid on this or no? If we can I dont see Helspont winning due to what I have read what pre crisis Darkseid can do.
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