Darkseid vs. Helspont (New 52)

@Needlebay: lol, they didnt forget Captain Atom, the two posts before mine included him.

@Buckshot: judgeing from what i know of the new 52 Manhunter i feel that somewhere doen the road he will be like a yoda character for the league witch would be awesome

I dunno,Helpont only edges out due to the Annual,he was'nt special in Superman #8.

And for the record Superman did'nt do squat to DS,he only tackled him when DS was'nt expecting him(remember Supes was captured),after that DS had him in a bear hug.

@Buckshot: Okay, agree about Helsponts statement. But not realy about MM´s domination over JL. If I could land a hit on Brock Lesnar for example it doesn´t mean I dominate him. He would be "under attack" for the very short time, but it would not be the proof for terms of domination in my opinion. Don´t get me wrong I believe MM could do that, but only one picture is still not enough for me.

@PrimeDirective said:

@Quntumking: Darkseid fought the entire Justice league to a stand still huh? So did Martian Manhunter... And just one of Helspont's underlings embued with a fraction of Helspont's power thrashed Martian Manhunter. How's that work?

@Onemoreposter: Superman NEVER did anything to scratch Helspont. Helspont was just toying with Kal the entire time. That picture in the first post? That's all Kal's blood, not Helspont's.When Helspont was no longer amused, he put Superman down... hard.

darkseid was capable of putting down the whole league with a footstopm and was capable of koing supes with just one ray of his omega beams. we don't have enough informations to talk about mm vs the jla.

there is not a huge gap between them...but however i can see helspont being slightly more powerfull thanks to this:

@Buckshot said:

@Funcake: You don't see Superman, Flash or WW hitting him, but what you do see is Flash on the ground with battle damage, Aquaman with obvious damage being completely ineffective, Hal looking to be thrown back at Cyborg, Superman under attack, and Wonder Woman's best weapon not doing its job. Along with that you get the Justice League admitting that the whole situation with MM ended badly for them and he got away with what he wanted without them even knowing where he went. If they'd beaten him, do you think they'd say it ended badly? Do you think he'd have gotten away? I'm not saying it's decisive proof of his superiority, but him being able to engage them all and them not being able to stop him does suggest that he is a threat to the group. Yes, it's just one picture, but the context clearly suggests some things about Martian Manhunter. As for Helspont's statements, it would surprise me not at all if he meant that Superman is most powerful in terms of physical power since there are clearly people that can beat him. Him having people who could take him on Earth and him being the most powerful don't have to contradict. It makes more sense given that Helspont calls him the most powerful and then beats him with a physical attack. It makes the clear point that whatever else may be true, the most physically robust character on the planet at the time cannot withstand even a weak physical attack from Helspont.

superman (if we don't consider captain atom who has lefth the earth) is the most powerfull being on the planet. helspont has personally engaged him 2 times in battle,and he has sent to mm just one of his subordinate.

@Death Certificate: only this one?

This scan is meaningless until Manhunter shows he can hold his own against JL more than a single picture. In the next second he can be overpowered and get beaten thanks to Flash, Superman and WW etc.

@IZZR said:

@Funcake said:

@Death Certificate: only this one?

This scan is meaningless until Manhunter shows he can hold his own against JL more than a single picture. In the next second he can be overpowered and get beaten thanks to Flash, Superman and WW etc.

Actually MM has taken on the JL on his own on multiple occasions.

which is the second occasion?

@Buckshot said:

@Funcake: You don't see Superman, Flash or WW hitting him, but what you do see is Flash on the ground with battle damage, Aquaman with obvious damage being completely ineffective, Hal looking to be thrown back at Cyborg, Superman under attack, and Wonder Woman's best weapon not doing its job. Along with that you get the Justice League admitting that the whole situation with MM ended badly for them and he got away with what he wanted without them even knowing where he went. If they'd beaten him, do you think they'd say it ended badly? Do you think he'd have gotten away? I'm not saying it's decisive proof of his superiority, but him being able to engage them all and them not being able to stop him does suggest that he is a threat to the group. Yes, it's just one picture, but the context clearly suggests some things about Martian Manhunter. As for Helspont's statements, it would surprise me not at all if he meant that Superman is most powerful in terms of physical power since there are clearly people that can beat him. Him having people who could take him on Earth and him being the most powerful don't have to contradict. It makes more sense given that Helspont calls him the most powerful and then beats him with a physical attack. It makes the clear point that whatever else may be true, the most physically robust character on the planet at the time cannot withstand even a weak physical attack from Helspont.

I agree with all of this... And it's pretty much my reasoning behind bringing up Martian Manhunter to begin with. I like to interpret, based on what we've seen of Superman becoming more and more powerful as he has grown up, Helspont meant the Superman has the most potential for power of them all. Pre-New 52 there was a precident for that as well. Give it 5 to 10 more years, and Superman will be stronger than what he is today, based on what has been established about the way his body develops under a yellow sun.

Darkseid

@toptom said:

@PrimeDirective said:

@Quntumking: Darkseid fought the entire Justice league to a stand still huh? So did Martian Manhunter... And just one of Helspont's underlings embued with a fraction of Helspont's power thrashed Martian Manhunter. How's that work?

@Onemoreposter: Superman NEVER did anything to scratch Helspont. Helspont was just toying with Kal the entire time. That picture in the first post? That's all Kal's blood, not Helspont's.When Helspont was no longer amused, he put Superman down... hard.

darkseid was capable of putting down the whole league with a footstopm and was capable of koing supes with just one ray of his omega beams. we don't have enough informations to talk about mm vs the jla.

there is not a huge gap between them...but however i can see helspont being slightly more powerfull thanks to this:

And that scan pretty much sums up how much of a threat Helspont is. Both Darkseid and Helspont easily took out Superman but Helspont did so on the current more powerful Superman. So I'll say Helspont for the moment. Being able to backhand Superman to the moon and affect him with that blue flame of his along with telepathy gives him more versatility than Darkseid. For now anyway.

@Lvenger: when did superman go back in time to get his hair cut?

Look familiar? Lol

xD

@Ancient_0f_Days: Ha I can see the similarity :P

@Funcake said:

@Buckshot: Okay, agree about Helsponts statement. But not realy about MM´s domination over JL. If I could land a hit on Brock Lesnar for example it doesn´t mean I dominate him. He would be "under attack" for the very short time, but it would not be the proof for terms of domination in my opinion. Don´t get me wrong I believe MM could do that, but only one picture is still not enough for me.

Did anyone say MM dominated the Justice League? As for your analogy, if you were able to make Lesnar's attacks against you absolutely meaningless (which MM does to Aquaman and WW), if you were able to down him no matter how fast he moved (Flash), and if your hits could keep him at a distance (Superman), I'd say you were doing pretty good. If afterward he said it the fight went badly for him and if you got what you were after something and you got it, that would even more suggest that you did well. It also seems strange to me that you believe MM could dominate the JL but an image of him taking them all on at once "is not enough".

Darkseid stomps.

@Buckshot said:

@Funcake said:

Did anyone say MM dominated the Justice League? As for your analogy, if you were able to make Lesnar's attacks against you absolutely meaningless (which MM does to Aquaman and WW), if you were able to down him no matter how fast he moved (Flash), and if your hits could keep him at a distance (Superman)

One attack for only one picture, possibly. Again only one picture still not enough, nobody can tell me here how fast Flash was before MM hit him. Anyway where can I read this story for my self, please?

@Buckshot said:

It also seems strange to me that you believe MM could dominate the JL but an image of him taking them all on at once "is not enough".

He dominated JL before if he goes all out, I don´t see why it would be different in the dcnu (only speculation).

@Funcake: You provided the framework of the analogy and I made the correct comparisons. MM didn't merely land a hit on an enemy. The snap shot showed him having downed their fastest member, holding off their strongest with laser vision, and being unharmed by two more with the rest dealing with discarded foes. As I've been saying, it's not evidence that he easily beats the team, but he's clearly a threat all by himself given the image and their statements. And that's really enough for the overall point to be meaningful since the point was that someone that can challenge the whole team gets one-shotted by a character with only a portion of Helspont's power. Whether or not MM dominates them or just holds his own, he was so easily beaten that Helspont's minion is impressive. And that further makes Helspont himself impressive since he has a lot more power. The fight takes place in JL 8.

@Buckshot said:

@Funcake: You provided the framework of the analogy and I made the correct comparisons. MM didn't merely land a hit on an enemy. The snap shot showed him having downed their fastest member, holding off their strongest with laser vision, and being unharmed by two more with the rest dealing with discarded foes. As I've been saying, it's not evidence that he easily beats the team, but he's clearly a threat all by himself given the image and their statements. And that's really enough for the overall point to be meaningful since the point was that someone that can challenge the whole team gets one-shotted by a character with only a portion of Helspont's power. Whether or not MM dominates them or just holds his own, he was so easily beaten that Helspont's minion is impressive. And that further makes Helspont himself impressive since he has a lot more power. The fight takes place in JL 8.

They still look only surprised for me at the scan, sorry (MM maked at the beginning of the ficht against Helsponts agent also a good performace, bu just only for a short time) . Anyway, I´m thank you for the info where can I check out the story for my self.

I don't know enough to say

@terry2012 said:

I don't know enough to say

Say helspont, it sounds cool

@Shawnbaby said:

I don't know if there really have been enough showings of either to get a real good impression of their capabilities...my gut says that Darkseid is gonna come out on top though.

Very much this. What do we have to go on? Has DS been shown outside of his very short tussle with the JLA??

hellspont currently

Any feats for New 52 Helspont cause I didn't get to read his appearances in Superman.

@ComicMan24: These are the most relevant ones. In their first fight, Superman was commenting on how painful the blue flame energy blasts were and weren't getting him any closer to Helspont. Plus he telekinetically threw a large chunk of a mountain at Superman but I can't find the scans for that.

@Buckshot said:

@Funcake: You provided the framework of the analogy and I made the correct comparisons. MM didn't merely land a hit on an enemy. The snap shot showed him having downed their fastest member, holding off their strongest with laser vision, and being unharmed by two more with the rest dealing with discarded foes. As I've been saying, it's not evidence that he easily beats the team, but he's clearly a threat all by himself given the image and their statements. And that's really enough for the overall point to be meaningful since the point was that someone that can challenge the whole team gets one-shotted by a character with only a portion of Helspont's power. Whether or not MM dominates them or just holds his own, he was so easily beaten that Helspont's minion is impressive. And that further makes Helspont himself impressive since he has a lot more power. The fight takes place in JL 8.

the jla considered mm as one of team and i don't think they expected him to attack them,but for shure he has enough power to stalemate the jla for some time...if he takes them by surprise.

mm told also to apollo that he could be the most powerfull man on earth,and apollo was later considered to be as equal to superman in different occasions. however J'onn has already got some contradictinf feats ,for example: fighting against the jla or being damaged and koed( by touching some pressure point) by midnighter.

darkseid took superman and not mm in order to create a new army of supersoldiers,and helspont himself adressed superman as the most powerfull being on the planet ( and not the most physical robust one) more than once and has fought him personally two times.

this is a new universe and mm has plenty of time to prove himself stronger than kal if that is meant to happen.but for now superman is the strongest one on earth,even if he can not defeat such extremely powerful foes as darkseid or helspont on his own.

@toptom said:

@Buckshot said:

@Funcake: You provided the framework of the analogy and I made the correct comparisons. MM didn't merely land a hit on an enemy. The snap shot showed him having downed their fastest member, holding off their strongest with laser vision, and being unharmed by two more with the rest dealing with discarded foes. As I've been saying, it's not evidence that he easily beats the team, but he's clearly a threat all by himself given the image and their statements. And that's really enough for the overall point to be meaningful since the point was that someone that can challenge the whole team gets one-shotted by a character with only a portion of Helspont's power. Whether or not MM dominates them or just holds his own, he was so easily beaten that Helspont's minion is impressive. And that further makes Helspont himself impressive since he has a lot more power. The fight takes place in JL 8.

the jla considered mm as one of team and i don't think they expected him to attack them,but for shure he has enough power to stalemate the jla for some time...if he takes them by surprise.

mm told also to apollo that he could be the most powerfull man on earth,and apollo was later considered to be as equal to superman in different occasions. however J'onn has already got some contradictinf feats ,for example: fighting against the jla or being damaged and koed( by touching some pressure point) by midnighter.

darkseid took superman and not mm in order to create a new army of supersoldiers,and helspont himself adressed superman as the most powerfull being on the planet ( and not the most physical robust one) more than once and has fought him personally two times.

this is a new universe and mm has plenty of time to prove himself stronger than kal if that is meant to happen.but for now superman is the strongest one on earth,even if he can not defeat such extremely powerful foes as darkseid or helspont on his own.

Sometimes I don't even know what you're jibberjabbering about. It's like you're trying to create arguments out of nothing. For example, you're trying to have an argument about how Mm could pose a challenge to the JL...only if he takes them by surprise. You're going out of your way to speculate about the circumstances of the fight just to try and be contrary. Since your premise is founded on nothing shown in the comic since we don't know anything about how the fight broke out, I'll simply ignore that path you want to take us down.

I don't even know the purpose of you bringing up Apollo. What does MM saying he "could" be something have to do with anything? What does speculation about his power from no noteworthy sources (unless you'd like to cite who said Apollo was equal to Superman) have to do with anything? J'onn doesn't really have contradictory feats. He wasn't actually knocked out by Midnighter in their first interaction since he specifically says he was playing along. And when Midnighter damages him later, there's still no contradiction since him having a weak spot that can be exploited doesn't matter in the JL fight if they don't know about it.

And what point are you trying to make by saying that Darkseid picked Superman (when Martian Manhunter wasn't around, might I add)? Does that automatically mean he's the best? Are you really just trying to substantiate Helspont's claim here? Is that your aim? To say Superman is the most powerful EVAR? In terms of physical power, I'd believe that. I don't think that makes him the most powerful in every way though. Last I read of Captain Atom, he seemed far more powerful, and the New DCU contains some pretty powerful magic users (Superman was easily downed by one at the beginning of JL Dark). So given that there are people that have demonstrated more power than Superman or power over him, I think saying he's absolutely the most powerful is false unless you're qualifying it by limiting it to physical power. That qualification makes the most sense to me given what we know of the universe at this point and taking everything as given.

Since you bring up MM again, I think he'd beat Superman in a fight even in this new DCU. He's demonstrated exceptional telepathic abilities (mindwiping every member of Stormwatch among other things), which is something Superman was shown to be susceptible to, and we've seen him use both his telepathy and intangibility in combat, which could easily make it impossible for Superman to do anything to him. Whether or not he's physically more powerful or not is, pardon me, immaterial.

So again, I don't know what your point is other than to disagree with me about Superman not being the most powerful in all possible applications of the term.

@Rumble Man:Laugh out loud. Yeah it may sound cool, but that don't mean it is.

@terry2012: Dude is the hybrid between dormammu and ghost rider in basic design with the mix of superman powers.

@Rumble Man: Okay Thanks

@Lvenger:Thanks for those. Quite impressive I must say. Still leaning more towards Darkseid but this would definitely be an interesting fight.

@Lvenger said:

@ComicMan24: These are the most relevant ones. In their first fight, Superman was commenting on how painful the blue flame energy blasts were and weren't getting him any closer to Helspont. Plus he telekinetically threw a large chunk of a mountain at Superman but I can't find the scans for that.

Do I have to point out that knocking someone back in Space is not really that impressive of a feat?

@Shawnbaby: That was actually from the Earth's upper atmosphere to the moon, so yes, it is quite impressive.

@PrimeDirective said:

@Shawnbaby: That was actually from the Earth's upper atmosphere to the moon, so yes, it is quite impressive.

Just read the issue....They weren't inside the upper atmosphere..Helspont tells Superman he creates his own Atmosphere.

So, again...knocking someone around in Space is not an impressive feat

New 52 characters don't have enough feats to be welcome on the battle forums just yet, in my opinion. Especially Darkseid.

@Shawnbaby: Do you think giving Superman a concussion with a mere backhand is unimpressive as well?

Darkseid.

@Shawnbaby: No but giving Superman a concussion and knocking him out with a backhand is. I should have posted those scans too.

not really loving the art here

@Buckshot said:

@toptom said:

@Buckshot said:

@Funcake: You provided the framework of the analogy and I made the correct comparisons. MM didn't merely land a hit on an enemy. The snap shot showed him having downed their fastest member, holding off their strongest with laser vision, and being unharmed by two more with the rest dealing with discarded foes. As I've been saying, it's not evidence that he easily beats the team, but he's clearly a threat all by himself given the image and their statements. And that's really enough for the overall point to be meaningful since the point was that someone that can challenge the whole team gets one-shotted by a character with only a portion of Helspont's power. Whether or not MM dominates them or just holds his own, he was so easily beaten that Helspont's minion is impressive. And that further makes Helspont himself impressive since he has a lot more power. The fight takes place in JL 8.

the jla considered mm as one of team and i don't think they expected him to attack them,but for shure he has enough power to stalemate the jla for some time...if he takes them by surprise.

mm told also to apollo that he could be the most powerfull man on earth,and apollo was later considered to be as equal to superman in different occasions. however J'onn has already got some contradictinf feats ,for example: fighting against the jla or being damaged and koed( by touching some pressure point) by midnighter.

darkseid took superman and not mm in order to create a new army of supersoldiers,and helspont himself adressed superman as the most powerfull being on the planet ( and not the most physical robust one) more than once and has fought him personally two times.

this is a new universe and mm has plenty of time to prove himself stronger than kal if that is meant to happen.but for now superman is the strongest one on earth,even if he can not defeat such extremely powerful foes as darkseid or helspont on his own.

Sometimes I don't even know what you're jibberjabbering about. It's like you're trying to create arguments out of nothing. For example, you're trying to have an argument about how Mm could pose a challenge to the JL...only if he takes them by surprise. You're going out of your way to speculate about the circumstances of the fight just to try and be contrary. Since your premise is founded on nothing shown in the comic since we don't know anything about how the fight broke out, I'll simply ignore that path you want to take us down.

I don't even know the purpose of you bringing up Apollo. What does MM saying he "could" be something have to do with anything? What does speculation about his power from no noteworthy sources (unless you'd like to cite who said Apollo was equal to Superman) have to do with anything? J'onn doesn't really have contradictory feats. He wasn't actually knocked out by Midnighter in their first interaction since he specifically says he was playing along. And when Midnighter damages him later, there's still no contradiction since him having a weak spot that can be exploited doesn't matter in the JL fight if they don't know about it.

And what point are you trying to make by saying that Darkseid picked Superman (when Martian Manhunter wasn't around, might I add)? Does that automatically mean he's the best? Are you really just trying to substantiate Helspont's claim here? Is that your aim? To say Superman is the most powerful EVAR? In terms of physical power, I'd believe that. I don't think that makes him the most powerful in every way though. Last I read of Captain Atom, he seemed far more powerful, and the New DCU contains some pretty powerful magic users (Superman was easily downed by one at the beginning of JL Dark). So given that there are people that have demonstrated more power than Superman or power over him, I think saying he's absolutely the most powerful is false unless you're qualifying it by limiting it to physical power. That qualification makes the most sense to me given what we know of the universe at this point and taking everything as given.

Since you bring up MM again, I think he'd beat Superman in a fight even in this new DCU. He's demonstrated exceptional telepathic abilities (mindwiping every member of Stormwatch among other things), which is something Superman was shown to be susceptible to, and we've seen him use both his telepathy and intangibility in combat, which could easily make it impossible for Superman to do anything to him. Whether or not he's physically more powerful or not is, pardon me, immaterial.

So again, I don't know what your point is other than to disagree with me about Superman not being the most powerful in all possible applications of the term.

maybe you don't evev know what i am jibberjabbering about ( which it is possible) but still you look pretty nervuos.

am i the only one that is speculating on that fight? are you shure of that? first i said to you that we don't have enough information to talk about that,but you keep saying that mm is probably the most powerfull one with just one panel supporting your theory,against what helspont said (two times).

i am bringing up apollo since mm said that he "could" be the most powerful being on the planet.that is not difficult.it is possible that he said "could" since there is a kriptonian flying around on earth,and apollo was compared to superman during that story arc by midnighter.

if midnighter was capable of discover the mm's weak spot, i believe that batman,cyborg,hal jordan ( if he is smart enough to use his ring in a proper way) and superman (by using his x vision and intellect) can discover it. but even if they don't ,they can still punch him right in the face and the work is done. mm was not able to avoid that punch even if he knew that it was coming. then you say that mindwiping the whole stormwatch is a big feat (and it would) but j'onn brainwashed them one by one in secret and he depowered apollo first.plus angie hepled him mindwhiping the others and she didn't try to oppose him when he did that with her.

yes i believe that for now supes is the most powerful between the super heroes ,thanks to what darkseid did , to what helspont said and to what superman did.i don't understand why this is so difficult to accept. superman fought better with helspont than mm did against one of his subordinate. that are not just words. yes, in their first round helspont was not at his best but i think he was still using much more power than the guy who took mm down.

i know tha captain atom is stronger than superman,actually i have told that before do you know?

no i don' think mm would win a fight with superman in the new 52(for now at least),actaully i think that he has got less chances than before. maybe he has demonstrated some good telepatic feats but he was able to remove his comnrades' memories just by touching them, that would be harder against kal. then you say that superman is susceptible to telepathy and that is not totally true: he was able to resist to the "forgotten supermna"'s telepathy (even if he could control the crowd just fine) and in the end he managed to break free.

this is a new universe and the things CAN change but actually superman is stronger than j'honn untill is shown otherwise.

@Lvenger said:

@Shawnbaby: No but giving Superman a concussion and knocking him out with a backhand is. I should have posted those scans too.

@Buckshot said:

@Shawnbaby: Do you think giving Superman a concussion with a mere backhand is unimpressive as well?

Don't be putting words in my mouth...All I said was that one particular scan isn't that impressive. It's a feat that could be duplicated by countless amounts of characters.

@toptom: nervous? lmao

I decided to just jump to the end of your post to get to the point.

this is a new universe and the things CAN change but actually superman is stronger than j'honn untill is shown otherwise.

I didn't say J'onn was stronger... After reading that, I went to the beginning of your post.

you keep saying that mm is probably the most powerfull one with just one panel supporting your theory,against what helspont said

You're again displaying a ignorance of my stance. I don't know where you got that I think MM is the "most powerful one". If I said so somewhere it was a mistake, but I don't think I did even that. Care to point it out to me so I can correct it? While I think MM could beat Superman, him being the most powerful wasn't a point I was trying to make. My point was more that I don't really think Superman has shown himself to be the most powerful in all terms. I can believe him being the strongest physically, but seeing the energy powers some characters have displayed, seeing the magical abilities others have displayed, and seeing characters display skills and abilities that would allow them to beat Superman through means other than strength lead me to believe that he is not the most powerful in every way.

Point 1: (Just so it's all clear.) Superman may be the most powerful in terms of strength/durability, but other characters seem to be more powerful in other regards. I consider Helspont's assessment of Superman to be accurate, especially in terms of physical robustness, just not applicable to every possible measure of power.

And I just want to break down this idea that Midnighter bloodying MM means anything. First of all, MM can create psychic images that show him to be elsewhere and can turn intangible. Between these, MM can make it so he's not actually hit by a punch to the face. Second, even if he is punched in the face it doesn't mean "the work is done." Apollo punched him full on in the face with an energy punch no less and he was unfazed. In fact, Apollo was floored in the attempt. AND THEN, even if someone else could figure out MMs weak spot it STILL wouldn't mean anything. Midnighter knew where it was, MM let him land the blow and it didn't do anything but break a bone and cause some blood because he could move his brain so the weakness can't actually be exploited. So in summary, someoe would have to first be able to land a hit, then actually hit the right spot (which would require knowledge of it), and MM would have to leave his brain where it was. Midnighter failing to actually exploit a weak spot successfully doesn't mean someone can just beat MM by punching him in the face. Nice try.

As for MMs telepathy, the point wasn't that he mindwiped the team all at once, it was that he demonstrated the ability to affect the minds of multiple characters of different types (a cyborg, someone whose mind is connected to cities, various metahumans, a reality warper, and he even threatened to destroy the minds of the shadow cabinet convincingly after reading their minds). His telepathic abilities are clearly formidable. You can try attribute something to Angie but seeing as she has no telepathic abilities unless I missed something, and we clearly see MM do it on his own several times, I don't really see her assistance in the act of mind wiping, Her assistance could easily be sending the team out in smaller teams so MM could pick them off easier than trying to deal with them all at the same time, since even Apollo and Midnighter together made his job tougher. You want to talk about Superman's telepathic resistance, but the forgotten Superman did fine and so did Helspont. Superman resisted the forgotten Superman because his telepathy required a conscious mind and Superman pulled a Wolverine on him. I see no such limitation stated for MM so there's not much reason to believe his TP wouldn't work.

Point 2: MMs intangibility and telepathic ability seem to be sufficient to allow him to beat Superman.

@Shawnbaby said:

@Buckshot said:

@Shawnbaby: Do you think giving Superman a concussion with a mere backhand is unimpressive as well?

Don't be putting words in my mouth...All I said was that one particular scan isn't that impressive. It's a feat that could be duplicated by countless amounts of characters.

I didn't put anything in your anything. I asked you a question. Defensive much?

@Buckshot said:

@Shawnbaby said:

@Buckshot said:

@Shawnbaby: Do you think giving Superman a concussion with a mere backhand is unimpressive as well?

Don't be putting words in my mouth...All I said was that one particular scan isn't that impressive. It's a feat that could be duplicated by countless amounts of characters.

I didn't put anything in your anything. I asked you a question. Defensive much?

It seemed to me as though you were taking an aggressive stance towards my position. The logical choice was for me to assume a defensive posture. If there has been a miscommunication of intent...well, I apologize for my part in it.

@Shawnbaby: Not many characters can duplicate giving Superman a concussion though.

We've only seen Darkseid once, but he was enough to take on Supes and the JL with ease. Helspont's pretty strong, too, he was tossing Superman around like he was a ragdoll. I'm gonna go with Helspont. He seems to be stronger.

@Lvenger said:

@Shawnbaby: Not many characters can duplicate giving Superman a concussion though.

Again, I was referring to that one particular Scan about him knocking Superman through Space. Thanks so much for paying attention.

If you wanted to show that the hit gave superman a concussion...you should have posted all the scans. I was talking specifically about him "Knocking Superman to te moon with a single backhand"

I'm going with Helspont. Like people already pointed out, Helspont man handle Sup like a lil child. Darkseid lacks showing.

@Buckshot said:

@toptom: nervous? lmao

I decided to just jump to the end of your post to get to the point.

this is a new universe and the things CAN change but actually superman is stronger than j'honn untill is shown otherwise.

I didn't say J'onn was stronger... After reading that, I went to the beginning of your post.

you keep saying that mm is probably the most powerfull one with just one panel supporting your theory,against what helspont said

You're again displaying a ignorance of my stance. I don't know where you got that I think MM is the "most powerful one". If I said so somewhere it was a mistake, but I don't think I did even that. Care to point it out to me so I can correct it? While I think MM could beat Superman, him being the most powerful wasn't a point I was trying to make. My point was more that I don't really think Superman has shown himself to be the most powerful in all terms. I can believe him being the strongest physically, but seeing the energy powers some characters have displayed, seeing the magical abilities others have displayed, and seeing characters display skills and abilities that would allow them to beat Superman through means other than strength lead me to believe that he is not the most powerful in every way.

Point 1: (Just so it's all clear.) Superman may be the most powerful in terms of strength/durability, but other characters seem to be more powerful in other regards. I consider Helspont's assessment of Superman to be accurate, especially in terms of physical robustness, just not applicable to every possible measure of power.

And I just want to break down this idea that Midnighter bloodying MM means anything. First of all, MM can create psychic images that show him to be elsewhere and can turn intangible. Between these, MM can make it so he's not actually hit by a punch to the face. Second, even if he is punched in the face it doesn't mean "the work is done." Apollo punched him full on in the face with an energy punch no less and he was unfazed. In fact, Apollo was floored in the attempt. AND THEN, even if someone else could figure out MMs weak spot it STILL wouldn't mean anything. Midnighter knew where it was, MM let him land the blow and it didn't do anything but break a bone and cause some blood because he could move his brain so the weakness can't actually be exploited. So in summary, someoe would have to first be able to land a hit, then actually hit the right spot (which would require knowledge of it), and MM would have to leave his brain where it was. Midnighter failing to actually exploit a weak spot successfully doesn't mean someone can just beat MM by punching him in the face. Nice try.

As for MMs telepathy, the point wasn't that he mindwiped the team all at once, it was that he demonstrated the ability to affect the minds of multiple characters of different types (a cyborg, someone whose mind is connected to cities, various metahumans, a reality warper, and he even threatened to destroy the minds of the shadow cabinet convincingly after reading their minds). His telepathic abilities are clearly formidable. You can try attribute something to Angie but seeing as she has no telepathic abilities unless I missed something, and we clearly see MM do it on his own several times, I don't really see her assistance in the act of mind wiping, Her assistance could easily be sending the team out in smaller teams so MM could pick them off easier than trying to deal with them all at the same time, since even Apollo and Midnighter together made his job tougher. You want to talk about Superman's telepathic resistance, but the forgotten Superman did fine and so did Helspont. Superman resisted the forgotten Superman because his telepathy required a conscious mind and Superman pulled a Wolverine on him. I see no such limitation stated for MM so there's not much reason to believe his TP wouldn't work.

Point 2: MMs intangibility and telepathic ability seem to be sufficient to allow him to beat Superman.

so you first read the end of my post and then the beginning? and so? good for you i immagine.

helspont said that kal was the most powerful and not the strongest one...that is just said by you. if he believed that the major threat for his plans was mm he would have dealt with him personally.it desn t make sense for him to search just the "most physical robust being" if there is another one more dangerous. helspont aslo stated that since kal showed up he was the single greatest advocate for protecting earth,so we have him recognizing him as his biggest foe for 3 times.that is not just a stamp error.

but again supes did best against helspont respect to what mm did against salu.that should be quite enough.

"MMs intangibility and telepathic ability seem to be sufficient to allow him to beat Superman." i don't think so ,since he needed the phisical contact to mindwhipe his foes and since he arranged a plan to depower apollo before he could take care of him.superman has still got quite a resistance against telepathy and we have aslo to wait to see how much hv can affect j'honn in his intangible status.

"And I just want to break down this idea that Midnighter bloodying MM means anything. First of all, MM can create psychic images that show him to be elsewhere and can turn intangible." what? do you realize that what you said it is exactly what happened right? he has created an image of himself but he could not use his intangibility in time,infact midnighter was still able to punch him in the face.mm even said that he could have died if he hadn't squeezed his brain before the hit. the fact that he let that happen is just in your immagination i suppose,since there is not this evidence in the comic. superman,or cyborg or hal could discover on their own that weakness pretty fine and if they manage to land a faster and a more solid punch on mm's nose they can kill him and not just ko him.they don't even have to know that his nose is a weak spot to hit him in the face.....listen i believe that all this part of the nose as a weak spot is just crap but neverthless it happened. however when apollo landed that energy charged punch on him,mm seemed to block it with his arm unless you believe that midnighter is stronger than him.

if you want you can start reading from here.

@Shawnbaby said:

@Buckshot said:

@Shawnbaby said:

@Buckshot said:

@Shawnbaby: Do you think giving Superman a concussion with a mere backhand is unimpressive as well?

Don't be putting words in my mouth...All I said was that one particular scan isn't that impressive. It's a feat that could be duplicated by countless amounts of characters.

I didn't put anything in your anything. I asked you a question. Defensive much?

It seemed to me as though you were taking an aggressive stance towards my position. The logical choice was for me to assume a defensive posture. If there has been a miscommunication of intent...well, I apologize for my part in it.

All this fencing and you still haven't answered the question. Sure the image only showed the hit, but you reported that you looked it up which would show that Superman got KTFO by the hit. Whether or not that small snippet of the hit was impressive, the hit itself was. You can fool around with "I'm just talking about that one image in isolation" if you want, but it represents a clearly impressive feat and even without the rest of it you can tell that the writer/artist are trying to convey Helspont's ability even if the actual power needed to hit someone into the moon isn't the more impressive thing we've ever seen. But whatevs, this is foolishness.

@toptom:

Helspont expressed other reasons for like Superman (his familiarity with Kryptonians, Superman also being more or less alone on Earth) but these motivations are irrelevant to the larger discussion. If you want to say that Superman is in fact the most powerful character in all possible terms, you'd need to actually prove it. You'd have to prove that characters like Firestorm, Green Lantern, Captain Atom, Cain, Martian Manhunter, Jenny Quantum, Andrew Bennet, any of the magical characters aren't more powerful than him and that he can't be beaten by them. You act like I'm saying Helspont made an error. I'm not, I'm just applying the word "powerful" in the way that makes the most sense given that other characters have shown more power than him in nonphysical ways. The EASIEST way for you to prove me wrong and shut me up would be to show how Supes is more powerful than characters like the ones I've listed. Simple.

The rest of your nonsense is about Superman being able to beat Martian Manhunter. So, telepathy first, MM didn't need physical contact for all his feats so acting like that's a limitation is just foolishness. But I'll entertain your foolishness. Even if he needed it, why would that be a problem? Superman has one ranged attack and he typically fights with his fists, so MM would be able to lay hands on him. You'll need to prove Superman's resistance because he's shown vulnerability to telepathic attack every time I've seen it used on him and only beat it on one occasion when he went on instinct, something that there's no evidence to prove would work against MM. Until you can somehow show that MM would have a problem affecting Superman's mind, it's pretty likely it would work. On to intangibility, you simply have no answer to that at all other than "he might still be vulnerable to heat vision" even though there's no evidence of that at all. Work on proving your claims.

Now to this Midnighter thing you can't let go of. A character not doing something is not necessarily evidence of inability. Where is the proof that MM couldn't go intangible? I'm not going to get into how MM's response after the strike suggests that he was curious to see if Midnighter could actually pull it off because I understand that's a subjective interpretation of the scene and you have enough trouble with things that can beobjectively shown. I'll move on to the obvious question of "If MM had time to make a psychic projection, to talk to Midnighter, AND to move his brain, why would he not have time to go intangible?" He clearly chose not to, and you can use whatever reason you want to, but I'll stick with "he clearly didn't need to" since he had already protected himself by moving his brain. My point was that MM has the capability of turning intangible and avoiding attacks. Him not choosing to in one instance doesn't make my point invalid. Try harder. As for the idea that Midnighter doing more damage that Apollo meaning he is stronger, that's just rubbish. Think about Karnak or Karate Kid. There are characters that can do a lot more damage simply because they hit weak spots and not because of greater strength and they established pretty clearly that Midnighter was hitting a weak spot.

This is just...sad.