Darkseid vs Captain Mar-vell

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thanobomb1124

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#51 Edited By thanobomb1124

Lol@Methos

12 years ago

venomoushatred1001

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#52 Edited By venomoushatred1001

@warlock360 said:

darkseidReason: Pre-Crisis

12 years ago

Freefa11

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#53 Edited By Freefa11

@MrDirector786 said:

Here it is.

Just to point a few things out:

1: I would consider Batman kicking DS to be either artistic error or just PIS. DS eats some shots from Superman just seconds later. I don't think I need to say that if someone is soft enough for Batman to physically hurt them, then a hit from Superman should probably make them explode. There's really no sensible way to reconcile Batman's kicks doing about the same damage as Superman's punches to the same character. Darkseid was restored a page or 2 earlier.

2: I think the Beams' ability to phase through matter and energy is overstated. This actually happens only rarely, and I'm not sure I've actually seen them phase through energy at all. Most of the time they go around obstacles, and I know on at least one occasion they were partially contained by a GL shield placed around DS' head. Superman also matched them with his heat vision at least once before, during Our Worlds at War.

I'm going to go back through all my DS issues to get a better idea of how this works though, because it is actually an interesting question.

Edit: I looked through all the issues I have today, and could only find one instance of the Omega Beams "phasing" through something, in Superman v2 #3, when it passes through Clark's coat without damaging it. I didn't see another clear or even ambiguous instance of this effect anywhere. I did, however, see a few instances of it being blocked or deflected; Green Lantern 80 Page Giant has it partially contained by a GL construct, Adventures of Superman 595 has it temporarily blocked with Heat Vision, in Man of Steel 116 it is blocked by the Entropy Aegis, in Legion 30 the elder Darkseid's beams are blocked by one Legionnaire's shield, and later looks like it is blocked by another's heat vision (the view makes it a little ambiguous; DS might just be getting shot in the face), in the already discussed Apokolips Now it is blocked with Heat Vision, in Superman/Batman 13 it is deflected by Wonder Woman's bracelets, and in Countdown 24 it is blocked by Mary Marvel. That's more or less chronological order. I'm not counting the instance with Spectre, because I don't think anyone really questions that the Spectre is powerful enough to deflect them, regardless of what the Omega Beams are capable of.

3: Desaad was actually on Skartaris at the time. Darkseid sends him there in Legends 4, and he is featured in Warlord 114 and 115. The scans you show reveal that Desaad does indeed impersonate Darkseid, but they do not show he has any special power or courage when he does it, which makes sense. One of the most obvious problems with him impersonating DS in AC 586 is the idea that he was actually powerful enough to go toe to toe with Superman for a few pages, even if he ends up losing. There are a lot of other problems with the idea as well, like how incredibly and blatantly stupid it would be for him to try and instigate a global revolution across Apokolips and then command its armies and generals to crush the Hunger Dogs, all behind Darkseid's back. There is no possible way he could hide something like that from Darkseid.

4: While there is indeed evidence that DS can create avatars, I have not once seen or been shown evidence that an avatar was present in Hunter/Prey. I have asked many, many times, and the two most common responses are along the lines of "I don't know, but I've seen lots of people say it, so it must be true," and "LOL, you obviously don't know what you're talking about and need to do more research on Darkseid."

Obviously this isn't necessarily true. As an example, take the common scans of Darkseid "fighting" Lobo. Hardly anyone knows where they actually come from, but most people see them once, and are willing to just accept that they must be true. Except they are actually an alternate joke ending to JLI 21, found only in the "Lobo's Greatest Hits" trade paperback. In the real ending, Lobo just leaves with no confrontation. Also, in the trade, he's actually dead. I don't think he was immortal at the time. There's another joke ending in there where he goes back in time and kills his mother before he was born (actually, there are lots of death endings in that book). I don't really see any way for him to regenerate from something like that.

Note the statement that apparently Darkseid doesn't even like to create avatars. This would actually make any appearance of him less likely to be an avatar without clear evidence otherwise.

@beatboks1 said:

We are talking about a being who summoned the entire Lords of Order and Chaos and dictated to them.

That was reconned to be Desaad. And it's not like he actually did anything to them or forced them to action. In that arc, he could barely even handle two puny versions of Dr. Fate who were nearly killed by a few Parademons.

A being who endured being entrapped in the Source wall.

That's not a feat. Anyone can be trapped in the Source Wall.

A being that even the Spectre can't destroy,

Spectre wasn't allowed to destroy him. Spectre obliterated DS' body extremely easily, but was prevented from actually killing him by his boss.

and "guards his thoughts from" when the presence is missing.

So?

All of this is Post COIE Darkseid, so PC Darkseid greater still. Also PC Darkseid didn't Job. Even SA Supe's couldn't take him.

Depends what you mean by PC Darkseid. Most people's knowledge (or interest) in him seem to begin and end with The Great Darkness Saga. However, elsewhere PC Darkseid has been beaten by Firestorm and Orion. And unless there are feats of ordinary PC Darkseid that are comparable to what he did in GDS, then it seems pretty cleared he was amped up at the time from Mordru and Timetrappers' powers, plus a few mystic artifacts.

12 years ago

beatboks1

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#54 Edited By beatboks1

@Freefa11 said:

That was reconned to be Desaad. And it's not like he actually did anything to them or forced them to action. In that arc, he could barely even handle two puny versions of Dr. Fate who were nearly killed by a few Parademons.

retconned or not the Lords of Order and Chaos acme at his bidding, feared him enough to be silent when he demanded it and gave in to his demands on his terms.
As for "barely handling two fates, he had the Eric Dr fate near death, and was about to do the same with the Linda fate when their love for each other filled DS' heart with compassion. if the spell hadn't done so Dr fate would have been looking for a new host.

That's not a feat. Anyone can be trapped in the Source Wall.

My point wasn't about just being trapped but after having endured that much power drained from him and coming through it.

Spectre wasn't allowed to destroy him. Spectre obliterated DS' body extremely easily, but was prevented from actually killing him by his boss.

My point precisely, he's a necessary part of the universe who therefore unable to be destroyed by even the most powerful

So?

It was clearly shown that the Spectre guarded his thoughts from DS because he feared what DS may attempt 9or achieve) in the absence of teh Presence.

Depends what you mean by PC Darkseid. Most people's knowledge (or interest) in him seem to begin and end with The Great Darkness Saga. However, elsewhere PC Darkseid has been beaten by Firestorm and Orion. And unless there are feats of ordinary PC Darkseid that are comparable to what he did in GDS, then it seems pretty cleared he was amped up at the time from Mordru and Timetrappers' powers, plus a few mystic artifacts.

Amped my @$$. he showed similar levels in tomorrow people, new god's, action and Superman titles.

12 years ago

Freefa11

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#55 Edited By Freefa11

@beatboks1 said:

retconned or not the Lords of Order and Chaos acme at his bidding, feared him enough to be silent when he demanded it and gave in to his demands on his terms.

The Lords of Chaos heeding his summons only shows political power, not personal power. Adam Warlock and Dr. Strange have "summoned" Eternity, that doesn't mean they are more powerful than him. And it's not like he was forcing them to do something they were completely opposed to in the first place.

As for "barely handling two fates, he had the Eric Dr fate near death, and was about to do the same with the Linda fate when their love for each other filled DS' heart with compassion. if the spell hadn't done so Dr fate would have been looking for a new host.

"Darkseid" was clearly getting roughed up there, and these versions of Fate were nearly killed by a dozen or so parademons. That's not really impressive for where DS should be at. Not to mention the nonsense of Great Darkseid being defeated by the Power of Love.

My point wasn't about just being trapped but after having endured that much power drained from him and coming through it.

I still don't see what that has to do with anything. The Source Wall doesn't kill anyone or inflict damage, it just traps them. Orion's been in and out of the Source itself, and Superman's been in and out of the Wall. It does nothing to indicate someone's durability level.

My point precisely, he's a necessary part of the universe who therefore unable to be destroyed by even the most powerful

He only survives under the protection of the Presence. That is not a feat for Darkseid, it is a feat for the Presence. It was made quite clear that Darkseid would have been easily destroyed by the Spectre, if not for divine intervention.

Moreover, Darkseid has been destroyed, and more than once even. So really, that particular instance applies more to the Spectre than to everyone in general, which isn't even that strange, because the Spectre clearly works under different rules than normal characters. He couldn't go after Sue Dibney in Identity Crisis, and he couldn't even restrain John Stewart in GL Rebirth. The Spectre is clearly restricted from acting in an arbitrary fashion, and being prevented from killing Darkseid is just another example of that. It does not mean Darkseid cannot be destroyed, because Final Crisis absolutely proved otherwise.

It was clearly shown that the Spectre guarded his thoughts from DS because he feared what DS may attempt 9or achieve) in the absence of teh Presence.

Where does this happen again? I'm having trouble finding it. Although I'll point out that it still doesn't actually show telepathy, at best it implies it, and being able to read minds is not the same as being able to influence or destroy them.

Amped my @$$. he showed similar levels in tomorrow people, new god's, action and Superman titles.

Such as...?

12 years ago

beatboks1

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#56 Edited By beatboks1

@Freefa11 said:

1.The Lords of Chaos heeding his summons only shows political power, not personal power. Adam Warlock and Dr. Strange have "summoned" Eternity, that doesn't mean they are more powerful than him. And it's not like he was forcing them to do something they were completely opposed to in the first place.
2. "Darkseid" was clearly getting roughed up there, and these versions of Fate were nearly killed by a dozen or so parademons. That's not really impressive for where DS should be at. Not to mention the nonsense of Great Darkseid being defeated by the Power of Love.
3.He only survives under the protection of the Presence. That is not a feat for Darkseid, it is a feat for the Presence. It was made quite clear that Darkseid would have been easily destroyed by the Spectre, if not for divine intervention.
4.Where does this happen again? I'm having trouble finding it. Although I'll point out that it still doesn't actually show telepathy, at best it implies it, and being able to read minds is not the same as being able to influence or destroy them.
5. Such as...?

1. And the reason they cow towed down to him, and were afraid of him after being summoned was ?? he yells they both jump, no no sign of him being more powerful or imposing. As for forcing them to do something they were opposed to, how about working with each other??

2. Nice out of context scans , since that's straight after he was caught completely by surprise by a 2nd Dr fate. The entire previous issue he owned the Eric Straus Fate for it's entirety (the more experienced mage I might add of the two) and for the rest of that issue easily dominated Linda for the most, and then both (as seen below). Not to mention he'd also man handed Nabu as well.

Sorry about the images being out of order (middle should be last) - so was Darkseid also getting roughed up here. Does it look like he's "troubled" - your words both.
3. Except the Presence was missing when the feat occurred?? how does that make it a feat for the presence. Still doesn't change teh fact that he will be just as protected against Mar-vell so everything he's used against Thanos isn't hitting home.
4. Ostrander's Spectre - somewhere in the 50's IIRC
5. How about single handedly gaining the upper hand in the war against the New God's (and achieving a detente that gave him everything he was after), defeating the JLA with consummate ease (might I add that the JLA of the Satelite era was not the piss ants of later years), matching other whole pantheons of gods. I'm talkning about his SA feats not the crap BA

12 years ago

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