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#101 Edited by logy5000 (5716 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ancient_0f_Days: Right now I'm under the impression that you're just trying to piss me off.

"Get a grip" you're giving me a headache.

I'm done here.

If you want to waste your time, respond to this.

#102 Posted by Outside_85 (8566 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ancient_0f_Days said:

@Outside_85 said:

@Ancient_0f_Days: Common sense will have Darkseid dealing or at least trying to deal with Adam first, because he will be in his face after 0.2 seconds, leaving Raven ample time to BFR him. I wont matter if Darkseid can theoretically boom him self back (though it didnt happen in Justice League), because he will already have been technically knocked out by leaving the battlefield. Theoretically however Raven could just drop him half an inch in front of the Source Wall.

Or, Darkseid uses one eye to bfr Adam, and the other to bfr Raven before she can chant and bfr him. Darkseid could just pimp slap Adam and shoot Raven in the same instance, he's pimp slapped Supes and hand waved Orion and Darkseid has been known to react in micro seconds, so he has plenty of time to pull that off...

Do provide evidence that Darkseid can shoot at two people with the same burst, but dont bother with ones where the pair stands close to one another.

But he is mostly known for moving far slower. Besides, it's unknown what would happen if the Omega Beams hit the Soul Self (which I will remind you is in this case an open door to somewhere else)

#103 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (11987 posts) - - Show Bio

@logy5000 said:

If you want to waste your time, respond to this.

isn't that why we all come here? to waste time? lol

@UltraSuperTrooper said:

hmmm black adam is really underrated imo, and if raven goes into that crazy mode where she is super powerful she can be a handful. not sure what they would do against his omega beams though... This is a fair fight that could go either way i think

How much do you know about all the characters here?

#104 Posted by Floopay (8721 posts) - - Show Bio

Omega Beams have been resisted before, though usually they still drain the crap out someone. I recall Cyborg Superman taking 2 hits from them before being removed, and after that first hit he didn't look so good.

Over and above this Darkseid has every physical advantage here. I think Raven with Morals Off can pose a problem here, and Black Adam can be quite the powerhouse, but even assuming the Omega Beams don't flat out erase them from existence or BFR them, it'll leave them too weak to defend themselves.

I'd say Darkseid for the majority.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#105 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (11987 posts) - - Show Bio

@Outside_85 said:

Do provide evidence that Darkseid can shoot at two people with the same burst, but dont bother with ones where the pair stands close to one another.

But he is mostly known for moving far slower. Besides, it's unknown what would happen if the Omega Beams hit the Soul Self (which I will remind you is in this case an open door to somewhere else)

Well, Nu52 Darkseid was able to track Barry and Superman with his Omega beams at the same time while they were both moving at super speed, and though I believe pre and nu Darkseid to be the same, others do not....but Its worth mentioning....

Pre 52 Darkseid was able to hit Batman in two different places with the OB at once while sending both individual Beams on different paths, i'd say he could easily do the same with separate targets. like he did with Barry and Superman.

And even if you didn't buy that....he could tag Adam, make the beam go through him and tag Raven.

So either way, he's gonna win

As for him being slower...if he was so much slower then he'd get stomped by superman almost as much as Mongul, he's always catching Superman in the jaw when ever he's about to blitz, he was able to match Orion's super speed in combat. He's not slow, just because he doesn't have a record of it doesn't mean hes slow. I can't just assume the OB will not affect Raven's soul self when it effects most things including the Spectre.

#106 Posted by Outside_85 (8566 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ancient_0f_Days: I normally argue that Darkseid received a personality overhaul, but we haven't seen enough of him really. To the second scan, it will depend on if he just needs to 'lock onto' a target and the beams make their way with all the zig-zags on their own (would free him from actually guiding them and leaving him blind to things close to his person.) The last one assumes they will simply pass through Adam, and I seem to recall Superman having taken hits from them, along with Wonder Woman (even if she blocked them and sent them back into Darkseids own face) and ofc Doomsday just walked through them.

As for speed; I put it down to Darkseid being a superb tactician who by now knows the only way Superman (and the much less subtle Orion) will only come at him head first. Adam will do the same ofc, difference is that he doesn't hold back.

In regards to the Soul Self, I raise the notion because the OB are entering a void, there is nothing for them to hit in this case.

#107 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (11987 posts) - - Show Bio

@Outside_85 said:

@Ancient_0f_Days: I normally argue that Darkseid received a personality overhaul, but we haven't seen enough of him really.

Well, I'm gonna argue that like Batman, nothing has really changed for him as far as continuity goes, nothing has happened to suggest it. I think Hal Jordan has also been pardoned from retcon as well as Orion who recently just crawled from his grave where since he died pre 52. I say Darkseid should retain his all his post crisis feats, making this one a legitimate source of evidence.

@Outside_85 said:

To the second scan, it will depend on if he just needs to 'lock onto' a target and the beams make their way with all the zig-zags on their own (would free him from actually guiding them and leaving him blind to things close to his person.)

If this were the case he could shoot a beam at Raven and just take Adam on 1 on 1....it would make for a good strategy on his part.

@Outside_85 said:

The last one assumes they will simply pass through Adam, and I seem to recall Superman having taken hits from them, along with Wonder Woman (even if she blocked them and sent them back into Darkseids own face) and ofc Doomsday just walked through them.

The Omega Beams have been known to job every now and then, especially when Superman is involved, there have been times when the Omega beams have Kod superman on the spot, there have been times where Darkseid blasted Superman and he was greatly damaged and needed help. Jeph Loeb made poor decisions and jobbed Darkseid greatly in the instance where Wonder Woman blocked the OB back at Darkseid, but it is believable since her bracers can block almost anything, I don't think she counts. Doomsday adapted to the Omega Effect after getting owned by them the first time. so that hardly counts as it is also somewhat out of context. Also, Darkseid has been known to manipulate peoples powers and even take them away, including beings of magic like Secret for example.

@Outside_85 said:

As for speed; I put it down to Darkseid being a superb tactician who by now knows the only way Superman (and the much less subtle Orion) will only come at him head first. Adam will do the same ofc, difference is that he doesn't hold back.

So every time Superman tried to blitz Darkseid and was slapped, it was because of tactical know how? And the fight between Orion and Darkseid, they were holding back or something? I don't think so, to suggest that Black Adam is something that Darkseid hasn't seen in Superman and Orion is more than far fetched....Orion is always bloodlusted when he fights Darkseid and there is nothing to suggest that Darkseid punks them due to anything other than the speed of his hands.

@Outside_85 said:

In regards to the Soul Self, I raise the notion because the OB are entering a void, there is nothing for them to hit in this case.

It depends if he actually has to hit the soul self at all, I've seen raven hit with other attacks of physical and meta physical nature...I don't know where exactly her Soul Self comes into play ....

#108 Posted by dccomicsrule2011 (23811 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay said:

Omega Beams have been resisted before, though usually they still drain the crap out someone. I recall Cyborg Superman taking 2 hits from them before being removed, and after that first hit he didn't look so good.

Over and above this Darkseid has every physical advantage here. I think Raven with Morals Off can pose a problem here, and Black Adam can be quite the powerhouse, but even assuming the Omega Beams don't flat out erase them from existence or BFR them, it'll leave them too weak to defend themselves.

I'd say Darkseid for the majority.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

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#109 Posted by Outside_85 (8566 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ancient_0f_Days said:

Well, I'm gonna argue that like Batman, nothing has really changed for him as far as continuity goes, nothing has happened to suggest it. I think Hal Jordan has also been pardoned from retcon as well as Orion who recently just crawled from his grave where since he died pre 52. I say Darkseid should retain his all his post crisis feats, making this one a legitimate source of evidence.

If this were the case he could shoot a beam at Raven and just take Adam on 1 on 1....it would make for a good strategy on his part.

The Omega Beams have been known to job every now and then, especially when Superman is involved, there have been times when the Omega beams have Kod superman on the spot, there have been times where Darkseid blasted Superman and he was greatly damaged and needed help. Jeph Loeb made poor decisions and jobbed Darkseid greatly in the instance where Wonder Woman blocked the OB back at Darkseid, but it is believable since her bracers can block almost anything, I don't think she counts. Doomsday adapted to the Omega Effect after getting owned by them the first time. so that hardly counts as it is also somewhat out of context. Also, Darkseid has been known to manipulate peoples powers and even take them away, including beings of magic like Secret for example.

So every time Superman tried to blitz Darkseid and was slapped, it was because of tactical know how? And the fight between Orion and Darkseid, they were holding back or something? I don't think so, to suggest that Black Adam is something that Darkseid hasn't seen in Superman and Orion is more than far fetched....Orion is always bloodlusted when he fights Darkseid and there is nothing to suggest that Darkseid punks them due to anything other than the speed of his hands.

It depends if he actually has to hit the soul self at all, I've seen raven hit with other attacks of physical and meta physical nature...I don't know where exactly her Soul Self comes into play ....

I am going to section this up in paragraphs:

1. Greatest problem however is that the only time N52 Darkseid has been seen is 5 years ago.

2. It would...if she couldn't teleport. (She has dodged close range blasts of Cyborgs sonic cannon in the past)

3. As a character sadly, Darkseid is massively inconsistent on a normal basis. Sometimes he is a beast and sometimes he is pretty pathetic and along with this is what powers he has or doesnt have at any given time. General idea is that he is near Superman on a physical level, but with much scarier optic weapons.

4. If you know what your enemy will do before they do, you are off to a good start. As for Orion...well he's bloodlusted on a constant basis (one of the reasons he needed the Motherbox) so I doubt it changes anything.

5. My general impression of the battle is that when the bell rings Adam will surge forwards in his usual fashion while Raven sends her Soul Self forwards, providing Darkseid chooses to ignore Asam (or like you claim, the beams will pass through him), the Omega Beams will either have to steer around the SS coming towards them or take the chance and try to go through it. And yes, the Soul-Self has taken blows in the past, by Brother Blood and Black Adam to be exact. First because he was also an empath...later reconned into being a blessing from Trigon, and the other was from Adam during WW3. Both were made by specifically magic-fueled enemies and the Soul-Self wasn't trying move them, only to pacify them where it wraps itself around them like a blanket. But even this setting was powerful enough to bring down a Titan of Myth. However the later Brother Blood was not in anyway immune to the Soul-Self sending him to hell (normally teleporting enemies away is a last resort to Raven).

#110 Edited by Dextersinister (5933 posts) - - Show Bio

@Outside_85: Darkseid's powers are less random than you think.

He had his first major jobbing to Doomsday when Doom was riding high off the death of Superman and with Kirby's recent death the New God's where just out there doing nothing Darkseid was the character used to show how powerful Doomsday was.

He then had a stint as a Superman villain for a few years following his success as one in the animated series, every major fight they had was within a short few years following that show.

There was then a large gap before Grant Morrison took over with Final Crisis, his level of power was very vague with DS being represented as a force rather than a man to be beaten and the events match up with the GDS which had become canon again with the New Gods disappearing a decade before the event which was nice way to end it.