Dark Side Anakin Vs. Kyp Durron

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shroudofsorrow

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#1  Edited By shroudofsorrow

It is the climax of Revenge of the Sith. Only, instead of Obi-Wan coming out to fight DS Anakin/Darth Vader, it is Kyp Durron. He wastes little time in igniting his pink lightaber and challenging Darth Vader to a duel. Snarling with anger, Vader ignites his blue lightsaber and the battle begins.

Who wins?

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Versus

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shroudofsorrow

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#2  Edited By shroudofsorrow

Bump

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JamesKM716

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#3  Edited By JamesKM716

Vader....

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shroudofsorrow

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#4  Edited By shroudofsorrow

@JamesKM716: Yeah, I thought so too. Mostly because he's just a way better lightsaber duelist.

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Pharoh_Atem

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Bump. This thread has major discussion value.

I'm siding with Kyp Durron.

@shootingnova@jedixman Any of you want to debate this?

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ShootingNova

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Eisenfauste

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Anakin.

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ShootingNova

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If Anakin is hindered, I'd give this to Kyp. If not, I'd give it to Anakin.

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Eisenfauste

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@shootingnova: Anakin's only hindered if kyp has the high ground, sorry that jokes so stale lol

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ShootingNova

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Eisenfauste

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ShootingNova

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#12  Edited By ShootingNova

@eisenfauste: I was joking as well, LOL.

Let's stop derailing the thread.

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Whirlwind_33

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Probably give the edge to Kyp dependent on Anakin's emotional state and willingness. His emotional state in RoTS seemed to hamper his telekinetic power and combat speed a bit.

@dccomicsrule2011 You got any dueling feats or speed feats for Kyp that would give him the edge under these stips?

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Intrepid37

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Anakin has the better dueling feats and physical feats, he should win.

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Pharoh_Atem

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#15  Edited By Pharoh_Atem

@shootingnova said:

@dccomicsrule2011: Anakin is being hindered, right?

It does say this is ROTS Anakin, and this was when he turned to the darkside, so he should be hindered.

@whirlwind_33 said:

Probably give the edge to Kyp dependent on Anakin's emotional state and willingness. His emotional state in RoTS seemed to hamper his telekinetic power and combat speed a bit.

@dccomicsrule2011 You got any dueling feats or speed feats for Kyp that would give him the edge under these stips?

Kyp has been placed in the same tier as Kyle Katarn in the dueling department, and defeated multiple Vong Warriros. As for speed. he has repeatedly deflected fire from a space freighter and also deflected fire from multiple Stormtroopers surrounding him simultaneously.

Kyp is certainly more powerful. Vaderkin has hosted a giant piece of a statue and hurled in through a durasteel door, stalemated Obi-Wan, and knocked a pillar over of Keto. All of those are solid, but Kype has hurled Carron Horn across a hanger bay, used space freighter as telekinetic weapon, and hurled builders at flying TIE Fighters. His strength in the TK department exceeds Vaderkin by a fair margin.

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Jacthripper

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I'll go with Vader

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juiceboks

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#17  Edited By juiceboks  Moderator

I'm not sure on the OP..so Anakin is hindered by his anger in this scenario? To the point where he was schooled by Obi-Wan?

If all this is true..then yea he loses.

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deactivated-5e8a1f5fafc4e

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Anakin should still win solidly in the physical and skill department. And I mean, wasn't him being hindered largely due to him being conflicted about fighting Obi-Wan? Why would he have that here? Sure, he wouldn't be at peak power or anything, but he should be able to expend a fair amount more of his physical and Force power than he did against Kenobi. He's also still more skilled.

But eh.. it's just one of these fights I can't accurately call. Kyp could win by expending considerable Force power. Anakin could win in close quarters. It really is determined by how the fight plays out, and who plays to their strengths better/has the more favourable circumstances in which to use those powers. And when we read fights, it's largely up to the writer how a fight will play out. Just going to call it a toss up.

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DaDivineKing

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Anakin should still win solidly in the physical and skill department. And I mean, wasn't him being hindered largely due to him being conflicted about fighting Obi-Wan? Why would he have that here? Sure, he wouldn't be at peak power or anything, but he should be able to expend a fair amount more of his physical and Force power than he did against Kenobi. He's also still more skilled.

But eh.. it's just one of these fights I can't accurately call. Kyp could win by expending considerable Force power. Anakin could win in close quarters. It really is determined by how the fight plays out, and who plays to their strengths better/has the more favourable circumstances in which to use those powers. And when we read fights, it's largely up to the writer how a fight will play out. Just going to call it a toss up.

Vaderkin is hardly more skilled. Being seen as a equal/near equal with Kyle Katarn proves Kyp is near Anakin's tier as a duelist - dueling against several Vong warriors along Skidder and Mara Jade is also an excellent feat. Physical abilities shouldn't be a problem to much of an advantage for Durron either. Before reaching his prime, Durron has deflected fire from an space freighter.

Also, Anakin was hindered during ROTS in general, I don't think Obi-Wan was the only reason why he was. I beleive Palpatine said something along those lines in Dark Lord, I could be wrong though.

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deactivated-5e8a1f5fafc4e

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@deronn_solo: Alright, I'll take your word for it since I'm only really going on what I've seen posted from RotS and by you for Durron.

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Whirlwind_33

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#21  Edited By Whirlwind_33

Kyp has been placed in the same tier as Kyle Katarn in the dueling department, and defeated multiple Vong Warriros. As for speed. he has repeatedly deflected fire from a space freighter and also deflected fire from multiple Stormtroopers surrounding him simultaneously.

If that's the case then Anakin is about a tier above him since, per Nick Gillard and Anakin's feats, would put him just behind Mace and Dooku in the skill department. Those speeds feats are nice as well and with Anakin being hindered here, I would say he and Kyp have comparable speeds.

Kyp is certainly more powerful. Vaderkin has hosted a giant piece of a statue and hurled in through a durasteel door, stalemated Obi-Wan, and knocked a pillar over of Keto. All of those are solid, but Kype has hurled Carron Horn across a hanger bay, used space freighter as telekinetic weapon, and hurled builders at flying TIE Fighters. His strength in the TK department exceeds Vaderkin by a fair margin.

Agreed with that as well. I guess it depends on who plays to who's advantages.

If Kyp utilize his superior force power to assault properly, and comparable speed; I see him winning 6-7/10.

Although I think Anakin's slightly superior lightsaber skill and physical strength edge, could yield him a few or more wins. At least under these stips.

Would you agree?

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DaDivineKing

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#22  Edited By DaDivineKing

@whirlwind_33:

If that's the case then Anakin is about a tier above him since, per Nick Gillard and Anakin's feats, would put him justbehind Mace and Dooku in the skill department. Those speeds feats are nice as well and with Anakin being hindered here, I would say he and Kyp have comparable speeds.

That would be the case if Anakin wouldn't hindered, he is here. A hindered Anakin is only around Obi-Wan's level, I honestly wouldn't put Kyle below Obi-Wan at all as a duelist.

Agreed with that as well. I guess it depends on who plays to who's advantages.

If Kyp utilize his superior force power to assault properly, and comparable speed; I see him winning 6-7/10.

Although I think Anakin's slightly superior lightsaber skill and physical strength edge, could yield him a few or more wins. At least under these stips.

Would you agree?

I can agree with that.

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Faymousinus

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@i_like_swords: Yeah, I would say he was lacking in efficiency when fighting Obi. Due to the conflicts inside of him.

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ShootingNova

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@deronn_solo: Part of the reason he was so hindered was because he was fighting Obi-Wan. He's not doing so here - so he would only, at best, be as hindered as he was in the temple, which isn't too much. I'll still give him the majority.

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Penderor

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Kyp Durron probably.

Dark Side Anakin is just a bit stronger than Obi-Wan who is weaker than Durron.

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DaDivineKing

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#26  Edited By DaDivineKing

@shootingnova said:

@deronn_solo: Part of the reason he was so hindered was because he was fighting Obi-Wan. He's not doing so here - so he would only, at best, be as hindered as he was in the temple, which isn't too much. I'll still give him the majority.

I thought Palpatine said he was hindered in general? I do recall him saying something along those lines in Dark Lord.

I still say Kyp is more powerful in the Force and close to his level of skill.

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I remember a quote from the ROTS novel talking about how Anakin was conflicted during his fight with Obi-Wan specifically because he was doing so. Not sure if there is anything to contradict this.

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Intrepid37

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Anakin's emotional state after turning to the dark side hindered his ability to draw on the Force effectively, but he was still winning against Kenobi and easily beat Cin Drallig and Shaak Ti.

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DaDivineKing

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#29  Edited By DaDivineKing

@intrepid37 said:

Anakin's emotional state after turning to the dark side hindered his ability to draw on the Force effectively, but he was still winning against Kenobi and easily beat Cin Drallig and Shaak Ti.

True. But here's the thing, is that enough to say he would beat Kyp?

Sure, Anakin is marginal the better duelist (by how much though, I'm not sure. Kyp is equal to Katarn in skill according to Luke Skywalker, and has defeated multiple Vong Warriors along side Mara jade, while injured and protecting another Jedi to boot.) In terms of power he was stalemated by Obi-Wan, someone Kyp could rag-doll with TK honestly. He has hurled Carron Horn across a hanger bay with the flick of his wrist and used entire space freighters as a telekinetic weapon. Used TK to throw builders at flying TIE Fighters and so one. Kyp is a tier above Maul in the Force power department, and he has had Obi-Wan at his whim on two separate occasion with the Force.

We have to remember, before the prequels were made, Kyp was intended to be even more powerful then Luke Skywalker, his power in the Force is nothing to scoff at.

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Whirlwind_33

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@deronn_solo:

Kyp is scrub compared to the 3rd generation Jedi Master known as Derron Solo, possibly the most powerful Jedi of all time

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yodagod

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Bananakin has more training and more feats, but Kyp has superior feats and better control IMO. I'd give a slight edge to Kyp. If he can manipulate little Vader in to losing control of his emotions he should definitely win.

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DaDivineKing

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#32  Edited By DaDivineKing

@deronn_solo:

Kyp is scrub compared to the 3rd generation Jedi Master known as Derron Solo, possibly the most powerful Jedi of all time

No Caption Provided

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Whirlwind_33

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@deronn_solo: Who from the NR or NJO era do think would be a good match up for Kit Fisto, and would you be willing to debate with them?

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Intrepid37

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@deronn_solo:

Sure, Anakin is marginal the better duelist (by how much though, I'm not sure. Kyp is equal to Katarn in skill according to Luke Skywalker, and has defeated multiple Vong Warriors along side Mara jade, while injured and protecting another Jedi to boot.)

Anakin is not marginally better, he is noticeably better. None of Kyp's dueling feats (or Kyle's, for that matter) can compare.

In terms of power he was stalemated by Obi-Wan, someone Kyp could rag-doll with TK honestly.

First off, does Kyp have a tendency to use telekinesis in a fight? And second, prove your claim that Kyp would ragdoll Kenobi

He has hurled Carron Horn across a hanger bay with the flick of his wrist

Carron is not an especially powerful telekinetic, nor do I see reason to believe that his Force aura would be stronger than someone's of Kenobi's caliber.

and used entire space freighters as a telekinetic weapon.

Provide details, please.

Used TK to throw builders at flying TIE Fighters and so one.

Anakin threw boulders big enough to crush huts in AOTC.

Kyp is a tier above Maul in the Force power department,

Maybe, but you haven't proved it.

and he has had Obi-Wan at his whim on two separate occasion with the Force.

Again, irrelevant until you prove that Kyp's telekinetic feats surpass Maul's.

We have to remember, before the prequels were made, Kyp was intended to be even more powerful then Luke Skywalker,

The fact that the prequels were made makes this absolutely irrelevant.

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ShootingNova

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@deronn_solo: No, that was just his fight with Obi-Wan. He was never hindered to such a degree when he was in the temple, etc.

Anakin's emotional state after turning to the dark side hindered his ability to draw on the Force effectively, but he was still winning against Kenobi and easily beat Cin Drallig and Shaak Ti.

He was "winning" because Obi-Wan was also hindered to some extent, and more than one source has explicitly stated that they were evenly matched.

Cin and Shaak have no impressive feats.

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Intrepid37

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@shootingnova: He was winning after Kenobi gave up his attachment. He was winning the entire fight, and at several points he almost killed Kenobi.

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ShootingNova

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@intrepid37: The points when he nearly killed Kenobi were only before Kenobi let go.

And yes, they were evenly matched as per sources:

Years of fighting side-by-side left these warriors evenly matched, and their exhausting duel crossed the fiery landscape of a Mustafar refinery.

Source: Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force

Still, the fight continued, even as the collection tower sank slowly into the lava. And still, neither man could gain an advantage.Source: Revenge of the Sith Junior Novelization

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Intrepid37

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@shootingnova: Kenobi letting go did barely anything. He was already capable of using powers such as Electronic Manipulation and Deflection mid-fight.

And both of these sources are wrong, read the fight.

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ShootingNova

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#39  Edited By ShootingNova

@intrepid37: He only used Deflection after letting go, even as per the novel, and the time at which he did let go in the novel contradicts both the junior novel and The Ultimate Visual Guide.

No, they're not. Every single source aside from the RotS novel does not portray Anakin was winning, and especially not once Obi-Wan let go. The RotS novel alone is not a sufficient source for your point.

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Intrepid37

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@shootingnova: So, basically, you have no source that accurately depicts when he let go.

No. First off, they barely even fought after Obi-Wan let go (in the RotS novel), they swung in the cabels and such. Second, the old script and the movie backs me up, and so does Nick Gillard, who says that Anakin was still a level 9 duelist after turning to the dark side.

Movie + novel + script + stunt guy >>>>> whatever you have.

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ShootingNova

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#41  Edited By ShootingNova

@intrepid37:

1. Another denial with no evidence? How touching. I expected more.

2. The sources indicate Obi-Wan let go at the very end of the duel, minus the novel, in which case, they did fight for a decent amount of time afterwards, but it simply didn't take up much of a page to describe that.

They spun and whirled throughout its levels, up its stairs, and across its platforms; they battled out onto the collection panels over which the cascades of lava poured, and Obi-Wan, out on the edge of the collection panel, hunching under a curve of durasteel that splashed aside gouts of lava, deflecting Force blasts and countering strikes from this creature of rage that had been his best friend, suddenly comprehended an unexpectedly profound truth.

Source: Revenge of the Sith

There's more afterwards which I don't want to post right now, but if you do have the novel you would realize there was more to the fight.

And this doesn't really matter because as per The Ultimate Visual Guide and the RotS junior novel, Obi-Wan never let go until the end, when he leapt up. Obi-Wan was hindered to a lesser extent for the whole fight in those sources, which outweigh and outnumber your one source.

3. Prove that they do. Simply citing a source does nothing.

4. Not true. All he said is that Anakin is inherently more skilful than Obi-Wan, not that he was winning the fight. The script says nothing about Anakin winning, and the movie supports me. Nowhere does it portray Anakin was winning at any point.

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Intrepid37

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@intrepid37:

1. Another denial with no evidence? How touching. I expected more.

2. The sources indicate Obi-Wan let go at the very end of the duel, minus the novel, in which case, they did fight for a decent amount of time afterwards, but it simply didn't take up much of a page to describe that.

They spun and whirled throughout its levels, up its stairs, and across its platforms; they battled out onto the collection panels over which the cascades of lava poured, and Obi-Wan, out on the edge of the collection panel, hunching under a curve of durasteel that splashed aside gouts of lava, deflecting Force blasts and countering strikes from this creature of rage that had been his best friend, suddenly comprehended an unexpectedly profound truth.

Source: Revenge of the Sith

There's more afterwards which I don't want to post right now, but if you do have the novel you would realize there was more to the fight.

And this doesn't really matter because as per The Ultimate Visual Guide and the RotS junior novel, Obi-Wan never let go until the end, when he leapt up. Obi-Wan was hindered to a lesser extent for the whole fight in those sources, which outweigh and outnumber your one source.

3. Prove that they do. Simply citing a source does nothing.

4. Not true. All he said is that Anakin is inherently more skilful than Obi-Wan, not that he was winning the fight. The script says nothing about Anakin winning, and the movie supports me. Nowhere does it portray Anakin was winning at any point.

Too lazy to look through all the sources required to properly refute this, but ultimately it doesn't matter; Anakin is more skilled than Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan's skill feats > Kyp's, ergo Anakin >> Kyp.

And the movie clearly has Anakin forcing Kenobi back almost the entire fight.

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DaDivineKing

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#43  Edited By DaDivineKing

@intrepid37:

Anakin is not marginally better, he is noticeably better. None of Kyp's dueling feats (or Kyle's, for that matter) can compare.

Kyle Katarn is not far off from Anakin at all....where are you getting that from? Defeating 7 highly trained Dark Jedi BEFORE receiving any formal Jedi training, mastering several forms from both the original Jedi Order and the NJO and defeating several Vong warriors ( if you know anything about the Vong Warriros you would know how good this feat really is.) Not to mention even Caedus considered him a threat.

First off, does Kyp have a tendency to use telekinesis in a fight? And second, prove your claim that Kyp would ragdoll Kenobi.

Yes he does. Kyp is known for being a savvy combatant. He has used esoteric powers to get victories against opponents in the past. Secondly what is there to prove? Maul TK feats are noticibly below Kyp's and he has had Obi-Wan defenseless twice, while Kype has hurled builders at FLYING TIE Fighters and used an freaking space freighter as a telekinetic weapon, with moderate difficulty. Kyp can, and would rag-doll Obi-Wan.

Provide details, please.

But Kyp no longer needed this particular missile. He ordered Octa's squadron to regroup in a defensive position around the Jedi scientist's ship. "As the Master says, size matters not," he murmured.

He released his hold on the second missile, not caring that it was swallowed by one of the coralskipper's stuttering singularities. Reaching deep into himself, he sought resources he had not used for many years.

Once before, Kyp had seized a ship and dragged it out of the fierce heart of a gas giant. Now he reached out with the Force and took hold of the dead freighter.

It shot forward with astonishing ease, moving steadily through the vacuum of space toward the shielded coral-skipper. Lan Rim's dark chuckle came through the comm. "Subtle as always, Kyp! Let's not let this one get away, Dozen!" he shouted. The lieutenant spun off in a tight turn, his two surviving pilots following closely. They darted around the big coralskipper, cutting off its retreat, taking and returning fire from the other enemy skips. Their daring maneuvers soon exacted a price-lan's ship got caught in a Yuuzhan Vong crossfire. The double blast of plasma proved too much for his shields, and the ship dissolved in a bright splatter of plasma and superheated metal. The pilots Lan had commanded doggedly held the course he'd plotted. The XJs continued to harry the big skip, forcing it to keep up its stuttering shields as the dead freighter closed in. At the last moment, the surviving X-wings shot away toward safety. The freighter never got close. One moment it was there; the next it simply disappeared into a void. What happened next was not exactly what Kyp had had in mind.He'd hoped for a physical impact, or, barring that, that the freighter might overwhelm the dovin basal's capacity, leaving the big coralskipper vulnerable to attack. It had never occurred to him that the skip's multiple singularities might merge into one and fold in on the Yuuzhan Vong ship like a glove turning inside out. But suddenly, the freighter was gone. So was the coralskipper.

--Taken from Dark Journey

If I really wanted to, I could say that it was retconned that Durron actually DID pull the Sun Crusher out of the heart of Yavin IV given what was later stated above.

Carron is not an especially powerful telekinetic, nor do I see reason to believe that his Force aura would be stronger than someone's of Kenobi's caliber.

Nice job to use a strawman. I never said he would rag-doll Obi-Wan because what he did Carron, I was just naming it as one of his feats. Also, Carron Force aura is decent considering it would require everything he has just to move his lightsaber two inches.

Anakin threw boulders big enough to crush huts in AOTC.

Flying TIE Fighters>Static Huts.

Maybe, but you haven't proved it.

Using a space freighter as a telekinetic weapon with moderate difficulty>>anything Maul has ever done. There is also Kyp hurling proton torpedoes at great speed at Yuuzhan Vong ships, etc,etc.

Again, irrelevant until you prove that Kyp's telekinetic feats surpass Maul's.

Nothing, I repeat, NOTHING Maul has ever done supersedes Kyp using a space freighter as a telekenetic weapon...NOTHING.

The fact that the prequels were made makes this absolutely irrelevant.

The point is Kyp was always meant to be one of the most powerful characters in the Star Wars universe. My statement was only a testament to that, not the crux.

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#44  Edited By DaDivineKing

@whirlwind_33 said:

@deronn_solo: Who from the NR or NJO era do think would be a good match up for Kit Fisto, and would you be willing to debate with them?

Depends honestly. I could see Jaina Solo, Kyle Katarn, Carron Horn, Kyp Durron, Mara Jade, Streen and maybe a few others giving Fisto a run for his money.

Also, I would love to debate with one of them.

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Intrepid37

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@deronn_solo:

Kyle Katarn is not far off from Anakin at all....where are you getting that from?

I'm getting it from him being on the same tier as Yoda in raw skill, from fighting evenly with Dooku, from holding an advantage over Ventress, etc.

Not to mention even Caedus considered him a threat.

Which he clearly wasn't.

Yes he does. Kyp is known for being a savvy combatant. He has used esoteric powers to get victories against opponents in the past.

Again, provide details.

while Kype has hurled builders at FLYING TIE Fighters

That the Fighter was flying doesn't make the feat more considerable in terms of power, bro. And next time, kindly refrain from using CAPS.

and used an freaking space freighter as a telekinetic weapon

He dragged it through space, in which objects are weightless. Nice try, though.

Nice job to use a strawman. I never said he would rag-doll Obi-Wan because what he did Carron, I was just naming it as one of his feats.

I never claimed your reasoning was based on how he treated Carron, bro. The strawman is yours, not mine.

Flying TIE Fighters>Static Huts.

Once again, provide details.

Using a space freighter as a telekinetic weapon with moderate difficulty>>anything Maul has ever done. There is also Kyp hurling proton torpedoes at great speed at Yuuzhan Vong ships, etc,etc.

Maul hurling several dozen soldiers is better than dragging a weightless ship through space, bro.

Nothing, I repeat, NOTHING Maul has ever done supersedes Kyp using a space freighter as a telekenetic weapon...NOTHING.

And, I repeat, the ship would have been weightless in space. Since you've not done a great effort to provide other of his telekinetic feats, your claim does not compute.

The point is Kyp was always meant to be one of the most powerful characters in the Star Wars universe. My statement was only a testament to that, not the crux.

Saying that Kyp is one of the most powerful characters in the mythos is not as much an argument for his victory against Anakin as it is for his own set of abilities. After all, Anakin is also one of the most powerful there are.

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DaDivineKing

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#46  Edited By DaDivineKing

@intrepid37:

He dragged it through space, in which objects are weightless. Nice try, though.

....and with this, I'm done.

Weightless=/= Massless. Learn the difference between the two. Objects in space still have inertia and would still require a good amount of Force to make something as massive as a freighter shoot forward at missile-like speed. Was it easier to move because it was in space? Yes, yes it was, but it is still an impressive feat because he still had to overcome inertia.

If you honestly think hurling soldiers in more impressive then causally making a freighter shoot forward in space, then this conversation is obviously going nowhere.

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Whirlwind_33

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@whirlwind_33 said:

@deronn_solo: Who from the NR or NJO era do think would be a good match up for Kit Fisto, and would you be willing to debate with them?

Depends honestly. I could see Jaina Solo, Kyle Katarn, Carron Horn, Kyp Durron, Mara Jade, Streen and maybe a few others giving Fisto a run for his money.

Also, I would love to debate with one of them.

NICE! I'm going to have to do a little research on their capabilities before we start. Carron Horn and Mara, in particular, since you said you might want to use them in the PM chat.

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Too lazy to look through all the sources required to properly refute this, but ultimately it doesn't matter; Anakin is more skilled than Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan's skill feats > Kyp's, ergo Anakin >> Kyp.

And the movie clearly has Anakin forcing Kenobi back almost the entire fight.

1. Hindered Anakin is not more skilled than Obi-Wan. Saying you're too lazy in a situation like this, which you virtually always do, is not a sufficient answer. I'll take that as a concession.

2. LOL. Obi-Wan's entire style was based on fighting defensively and giving ground. The novel itself explicitly states that.

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Anakin he will not be hindered in this fight by a bond.