Dark Phoenix vs Doctor Manhattan

Dark Phoenix

Manhattan rather easily...although i dont like him so much as a character he has ridiculous power

Doctor Manhattan is out of his league here. Dark Phoenix would destroy him.

"Manhattan rather easily...although i dont like him so much as a character he has ridiculous power"

I'm gonna' go w/Dr. Manhattan on this one, though I don't think a random encounter between the two is really possible.  I know Dark Phoenix can manipulate time, but Manhattan pretty much knows everything that's going to happen to him, so it would be hard for him not to expect the battle when it comes if it was going to happen.  While the degree of Manhattan's invulnerability is never really elaborated on, he was getting stronger and stronger and I think it's a reasonable assumption that eventually he was going to attain the highest degree of cosmic omniscience possible.  Dark Phoenix is a immensely destructive force, but maybe she simply can't destroy Manhattan.

DP

Dr. Manhattan is nearly omnipotent.....Throughout Watchmen, he is shown to be immensely powerful and seemingly invulnerable to all harm; a clear limit to his powers is never explicitly shown. Jon has complete awareness of and control over atomic and subatomic particles. He can alter his body's size, coloration, density, and strength. He does not appear to age, need food (although he is shown to eat regardless of this), water, or air, and is, for all intents and purposes, immortal at thirty years old. In addition, he is even able to reconstruct his body if completely disintegrated. He can teleport himself and others over great (even interplanetary) distances, but the exact limit to the number of people other than himself he can teleport at one time or the distance he can teleport them is unknown. As an example of his teleportational ability, he dealt with a crowd of protesters by teleporting every single one of them back to their individual homes simultaneously.

Due to his non-linear perception of time, he can also

Watchman was a small run.  I doubt we saw a fraction of what Manhattan can do.  Everything he did in that series was seemingly without effort.  Lunacyde mentioned some of the feats he performed in the comics.  As I said, I don't think it would be fair to make the comparison simply because Manhattan didn't have the opportunity to demonstrate anywhere near the full limits of his power.

Dark Phoenix for one is restrained by inhabiting Jean Greys human body....and secondly yes pretty mucht thats what Im saying

"Dark Phoenix for one is restrained by inhabiting Jean Greys human body....and secondly yes pretty mucht thats what Im saying"

yea lol.....thanx...i know im good lol

"

yea lol.....thanx...i know im good lol

"

im taking Manhattan its gonna be a close battle though

yea I was by no means saying it was a stomp....but I dont see Dark Pheonix winning

i dunno dark pheonix is pretty strong but i think she s a level below dr manhattan

Tevnoba said:

"DP"

I agree.
DP manipulated / absorbed the energy of a star. Dr Manhatten did not show ability at this level. To sumise he could perform actions at this level is only conjecture and battles should be based on facts, not wishful thinking.
Although Dr Manhatten survived being disintegrated, his atoms where not widely dispersed so 'ressurecting' himself was less difficult. This is an ability that others are reputed to possess i.e. The Eternals. The Eternals can only die through an injury that disperses a significant portion of his body molecules.
Dr Manhatten never faced anyone like DP as she simply won't disintegrate him, she could disperse his atoms across the solar system should she choose to do so.

Dr. Manhattan would already know b4 the battle whether he wins or not....he can see in the past and future

"

Tevnoba said:

"DP"

I agree.
DP manipulated / absorbed the energy of a star. Dr Manhatten did not show ability at this level. To sumise he could perform actions at this level is only conjecture and battles should be based on facts, not wishful thinking.
Although Dr Manhatten survived being disintegrated, his atoms where not widely dispersed so 'rsusrrecting' himself was less difficult. This is an ability that others are reputed to possess i.e. The Eternals. The Eternals can only die through an injury that disperses a significant portion of his body molecules.
Dr Manhatten never faced anyone like DP as she simply won't disintegrate him, she could disperse his atoms across the solar system should she choose to do so.

"

DP

im leaning towards dp here...

"im leaning towards dp here..."

Dark Phoenix....winning this. Her reality manipulation and nexus of all psionic energy makes her more lethal.


Dr. Manhattan can see his doom and could not prevent himself from getting away from it.

Phoenix Force itself would beat Dr. Manhattan but because Dark Phoenix is limited by Jean's human mind and body I say she loses against Dr. Manhattan. It is not even clear if Dr. Manhattan can be destroyed...Thus far from all evidence he cannot be killed. He has easily come back from being completely disintegrated.....he has vast immense powers so many that I dont feel like naming them all right now....Doc FTW

Phoenix Force itself would beat Dr. Manhattan but because Dark Phoenix is limited by Jean's human mind and body I say she loses against Dr. Manhattan. It is not even clear if Dr. Manhattan can be destroyed...Thus far from all evidence he cannot be killed. He has easily come back from being completely disintegrated.....he has vast immense powers so many that I dont feel like naming them all right now....Doc FTW

Manhattan has a mind, and despite his impressive power set, it is a weakness. Regular humans were able to pressure him into abandoning his life on Earth. Imagine what a telepath would do to him. And that telepath is the Phoenix. The Dark Phoenix. I also think her TK surpasses Manhattan's powers on every level.

Dr. Manhattan has powerful TK....and that is just a fraction of his powers.....he can create life! He is a telepath and TK too....he can create forcefields that can withstand a nuclear barrage easily.....he has complete control over sub atomic particles....there is no way she can beat him

Why not DP would have access to all of his powers as well but on a much much higher scale. he creates life she creates universes and realities, her telepathy can make a star go supernova, she could create a force field to stop the explosion of a star easily, she also can control sub atomic particles. She would easily beat him shes way out of his league Dark Phoenix has stood down Galactus before. 

Doc basically has Molecule Mans powers....and Molecule Man is listed higher in power in the Marvel Universe than Dark Phoenix.....also as stated b4 he would just regenerate after being disintegrated.....thier powers are almost exactly similar except that Dark Phoenix has a human body and Doc doesnt.....she cant destroy him.....he can destroy her human body.

"Doc basically has Molecule Mans powers....and Molecule Man is listed higher in power in the Marvel Universe than Dark Phoenix.....also as stated b4 he would just regenerate after being disintegrated.....thier powers are almost exactly similar except that Dark Phoenix has a human body and Doc doesnt.....she cant destroy him.....he can destroy her human body."

DP

"

Saying Dark Phoenix is limited by Jean will not give him the win, for one Jean was only keeping the Phoenix from killing her friends, everybody else was cannon fodder.  Her body was certainly not a limitation as she plunged into a star with it and came out perfectly fine.  It may not be clear if Doc can be destroyed but it is clear that Phoenix can't be destroyed without making herself vulnerable which i doubt she'll do fighting some random guy who is trying to kill her.  And let us all remember that Dark Phoenix is not a character per se, it is the dark side of a character, meaning anything Phoenix can do Dark Phoenix can do, Dark Phoenix is nothing more than a rogue manifestation of the Phoenix.  DP FTW.  I have yet to read marvel placing MM higher than any manifestation of the Phoenix, and if his powers are like MM then she can trap in a force field without molecules to manipulate like the Watcher did.

"

"Phoenix Force itself would beat Dr. Manhattan but because Dark Phoenix is limited by Jean's human mind and body I say she loses against Dr. Manhattan. It is not even clear if Dr. Manhattan can be destroyed...Thus far from all evidence he cannot be killed. He has easily come back from being completely disintegrated.....he has vast immense powers so many that I dont feel like naming them all right now....Doc FTW"

Well then technically neither could win .....it would just continue on for eternity....STALEMATE

"Tevnoba said:

"Phoenix of the Black Throne said:

"

Saying Dark Phoenix is limited by Jean will not give him the win, for one Jean was only keeping the Phoenix from killing her friends, everybody else was cannon fodder.  Her body was certainly not a limitation as she plunged into a star with it and came out perfectly fine.  It may not be clear if Doc can be destroyed but it is clear that Phoenix can't be destroyed without making herself vulnerable which i doubt she'll do fighting some random guy who is trying to kill her.  And let us all remember that Dark Phoenix is not a character per se, it is the dark side of a character, meaning anything Phoenix can do Dark Phoenix can do, Dark Phoenix is nothing more than a rogue manifestation of the Phoenix.  DP FTW.  I have yet to read marvel placing MM higher than any manifestation of the Phoenix, and if his powers are like MM then she can trap in a force field without molecules to manipulate like the Watcher did.

"

MM is many levels above any Phoenix Avatar - Regular, Dark and even a few above the Phoenix Force."

That is a matter of opinion, since there seems to be no limit to the amount of matter and energy she can manipulate, and  with telepathy included she has a larger powerset, name one thing he can do with his power that she would not be able to duplicate,because I can name several things Phoenix can do that he can't (for one he is limited by the amount of physical matter present, she apparently is not since she is born from the void between states of being, which is basically nothingness) and when first created she was only second to the creator per Uatu.  No way is a man with a fraction of power from a cosmic cube (which are not as omnipotent as people believe) more powerful than a being that has been referred to many times on panel as the spark of creation and the fires of destruction (the universe).  Marvel has showed that the universe can continue to exist without the other Abstracts like when Thanos absorbed them, but when Galactus attempted to "erase" a portion of the Phoenix by seperating it from Rachel the universe began to die."

"Tevnoba said:

"Phoenix of the Black Throne said:

"Tevnoba said:

"Phoenix of the Black Throne said:

"

Saying Dark Phoenix is limited by Jean will not give him the win, for one Jean was only keeping the Phoenix from killing her friends, everybody else was cannon fodder.  Her body was certainly not a limitation as she plunged into a star with it and came out perfectly fine.  It may not be clear if Doc can be destroyed but it is clear that Phoenix can't be destroyed without making herself vulnerable which i doubt she'll do fighting some random guy who is trying to kill her.  And let us all remember that Dark Phoenix is not a character per se, it is the dark side of a character, meaning anything Phoenix can do Dark Phoenix can do, Dark Phoenix is nothing more than a rogue manifestation of the Phoenix.  DP FTW.  I have yet to read marvel placing MM higher than any manifestation of the Phoenix, and if his powers are like MM then she can trap in a force field without molecules to manipulate like the Watcher did.

"

MM is many levels above any Phoenix Avatar - Regular, Dark and even a few above the Phoenix Force."

That is a matter of opinion, since there seems to be no limit to the amount of matter and energy she can manipulate, and  with telepathy included she has a larger powerset, name one thing he can do with his power that she would not be able to duplicate,because I can name several things Phoenix can do that he can't (for one he is limited by the amount of physical matter present, she apparently is not since she is born from the void between states of being, which is basically nothingness) and when first created she was only second to the creator per Uatu.  No way is a man with a fraction of power from a cosmic cube (which are not as omnipotent as people believe) more powerful than a being that has been referred to many times on panel as the spark of creation and the fires of destruction (the universe).  Marvel has showed that the universe can continue to exist without the other Abstracts like when Thanos absorbed them, but when Galactus attempted to "erase" a portion of the Phoenix by seperating it from Rachel the universe began to die."

First of all Cosmic Cubes power is Unlimited, it is only restricted by the universal will (Read Infinity Crusade) and their own restrictions against affecting souls.

Second, this is MM from pre-retcon Beyonder that we have been discussing.  Uatu, also stated for him that he along with the Beyonder were the two most powerful beings in the Actulity.  Which is why Uatu came begging for MM's help with the Beynder, and why Infinity, Lord Chaos, Master Order, Galactus, Death, Living Tribunal and the rest of the assembled cosmic entities could not stop the Beyonder - and yet MM was able to hold him off for a bit.

Also, the universe did not contiunue to exist when Thanos absorbed the cosmic abstracts.  One of the Abstracts was Eternity and Inifinity - they are the Actuality.  Thanos overlooked a few anchor points in his absorbtion - probablly because the entities from those anchor points did not envolve themselves - Death's Domain, Atelza's Domain, and probably the White Hot Room.

The Phoenix is an integral part of A UNIVERSE and her power as a Phoenix Force Avatar is limited to the universe in which she dwells.  The Phoenix Force on the other hand is a different story - as it is the power behind all Phoenix Avatars.

MM's, power transacts accross the entire Actuality - like when he was fixing damage in other realms caused by the Beyonder with little effort.

MM>>>>Dark Phoenix"

You're right it's an integral part of the universe and since there are Phoenix across the multiverse the Phoenix is integral to everything.  unlimited is unlimited the dark phoenix has unlimited power to manipulate matter, energy the mind and quite possibly other metaphysical aspects of the universe, dark phoenix was the phoenix force (it's the reason they created the phoenix force in the first place), therefore in a battle in which she is fighting someone on par with her power she will us it accordingly and wipe the floor with MM."

Here is how the Tier Breakdown for Marvel is (although it is still imcomplete):

Tier 1:

• The One Above All
• Anyone with the Heart of the Universe (Location/Item)
• Beyonder(Pre-Retcon)

Tier 1.5: (Pre-Retcon Only)

• Molecule Man (Owen Reece)

Tier 2:

• The Living Tribunal

Tier 2.5:

• Anyone with The Infinity Gauntlet (When it could be used in Unison)

Tier 3:

• Eternity/Infinity (Same Being – Two Sides of the Same Coin)

Tier 4:

• Force
• The Nexus of Realities/M’Kraan (Location/Item)
• Death
• Infinity Well (Location/Item – Knowledge Only)
• The Hunger

"Tevnoba said:

"Phoenix of the Black Throne said:

"Tevnoba said:

"Phoenix of the Black Throne said:

"Tevnoba said:

"Phoenix of the Black Throne said:

"

Saying Dark Phoenix is limited by Jean will not give him the win, for one Jean was only keeping the Phoenix from killing her friends, everybody else was cannon fodder.  Her body was certainly not a limitation as she plunged into a star with it and came out perfectly fine.  It may not be clear if Doc can be destroyed but it is clear that Phoenix can't be destroyed without making herself vulnerable which i doubt she'll do fighting some random guy who is trying to kill her.  And let us all remember that Dark Phoenix is not a character per se, it is the dark side of a character, meaning anything Phoenix can do Dark Phoenix can do, Dark Phoenix is nothing more than a rogue manifestation of the Phoenix.  DP FTW.  I have yet to read marvel placing MM higher than any manifestation of the Phoenix, and if his powers are like MM then she can trap in a force field without molecules to manipulate like the Watcher did.

"

MM is many levels above any Phoenix Avatar - Regular, Dark and even a few above the Phoenix Force."

That is a matter of opinion, since there seems to be no limit to the amount of matter and energy she can manipulate, and  with telepathy included she has a larger powerset, name one thing he can do with his power that she would not be able to duplicate,because I can name several things Phoenix can do that he can't (for one he is limited by the amount of physical matter present, she apparently is not since she is born from the void between states of being, which is basically nothingness) and when first created she was only second to the creator per Uatu.  No way is a man with a fraction of power from a cosmic cube (which are not as omnipotent as people believe) more powerful than a being that has been referred to many times on panel as the spark of creation and the fires of destruction (the universe).  Marvel has showed that the universe can continue to exist without the other Abstracts like when Thanos absorbed them, but when Galactus attempted to "erase" a portion of the Phoenix by seperating it from Rachel the universe began to die."

First of all Cosmic Cubes power is Unlimited, it is only restricted by the universal will (Read Infinity Crusade) and their own restrictions against affecting souls.

Second, this is MM from pre-retcon Beyonder that we have been discussing.  Uatu, also stated for him that he along with the Beyonder were the two most powerful beings in the Actulity.  Which is why Uatu came begging for MM's help with the Beynder, and why Infinity, Lord Chaos, Master Order, Galactus, Death, Living Tribunal and the rest of the assembled cosmic entities could not stop the Beyonder - and yet MM was able to hold him off for a bit.

Also, the universe did not contiunue to exist when Thanos absorbed the cosmic abstracts.  One of the Abstracts was Eternity and Inifinity - they are the Actuality.  Thanos overlooked a few anchor points in his absorbtion - probablly because the entities from those anchor points did not envolve themselves - Death's Domain, Atelza's Domain, and probably the White Hot Room.

The Phoenix is an integral part of A UNIVERSE and her power as a Phoenix Force Avatar is limited to the universe in which she dwells.  The Phoenix Force on the other hand is a different story - as it is the power behind all Phoenix Avatars.

MM's, power transacts accross the entire Actuality - like when he was fixing damage in other realms caused by the Beyonder with little effort.

MM>>>>Dark Phoenix"

You're right it's an integral part of the universe and since there are Phoenix across the multiverse the Phoenix is integral to everything.  unlimited is unlimited the dark phoenix has unlimited power to manipulate matter, energy the mind and quite possibly other metaphysical aspects of the universe, dark phoenix was the phoenix force (it's the reason they created the phoenix force in the first place), therefore in a battle in which she is fighting someone on par with her power she will us it accordingly and wipe the floor with MM."

The Phoenix does not have unlimited power and an individual Phoenix Avatar's power is limited to the universe they are the Phoenix for.  Dark Phoenix is not the Phoenix Force.  Dark Phoenix is an abberant Phoenix Avatar of a single universe.  Where as the Phoenix Force itself is a Nigh - Omniversal Entity.  The Phoenix Force is not stronger than Infinty/Eternity, LT, TOAA, or Death/Oblivion - who are all actually omniversal and omnitemporal.  MM was on par with these entities (if not greater - considering they cam to him for help).

Here is how the Tier Breakdown for Marvel is (although it is still imcomplete):

Tier 1:

• The One Above All
• Anyone with the Heart of the Universe (Location/Item)
• Beyonder(Pre-Retcon)

Tier 1.5: (Pre-Retcon Only)

• Molecule Man (Owen Reece)

Tier 2:

• The Living Tribunal

Tier 2.5:

• Anyone with The Infinity Gauntlet (When it could be used in Unison)

Tier 3:

• Eternity/Infinity (Same Being – Two Sides of the Same Coin)

Tier 4:

• Force
• The Nexus of Realities/M’Kraan (Location/Item)
• Death
• Infinity Well (Location/Item – Knowledge Only)
• The Hunger

"

Ok how can i put this.... everything you wrote especially your marvel tier breakdown is a bunch of crap.  So there is no single being in or under creation more powerful than MM? LMAO.  Death should be equal to eternity as they are polar opposites.  If the phoenix is below eternity than why in xmen forever did he/she/it intervene in the strangers plot , which would have eradicated him/her/it and every being including LT by using the power of the Phoenix.  the phoenix doesn't have unlimited power?  well everybody else including marvel writers seem to think so.  There is only one Phoenix avatar Jean Grey and she is not limited by any one universe as she can operate outside of reality throughout the whole of creation.  The only limitations placed on a Phoenix in any reality it manifests in are dictated by the Phoenix consciousness or Jean herself per that what if when Vulcan had the power of the Phoenix, (that was Phoenix of the white crown, 616 Jean Grey) , not to mention her removing a piece of the phoenix from emma frost under her own (jean) power.  you speak of Phoenix hosts not avatars there is a difference as a host will be given as much power as it needs to do Phoenix work (warsong), the avatar is one with the power.  Dark Phoenix was supposed to originally be Jean grey tapping her full power and then going mad, it was retconned to to be the Phoenix force taking on Jeans form, now Jean Grey is the living embodiment of the Phoenix so any angle you approach it from dark phoenix is the phoenix force.  Jean grey becoming Phoenix "frightened" the abstracts per the stranger xmen forever.  the phoenix has a omniversal feat, projecting the lighthouse throughtout the omniverse to consolidate the power of an alignment.  none of these other being have come close to affecting anything on an omniversal level outside of rhetoric and conjecture."

You are giving the Phoenix way too much credit....it was never created to ...nor is it the most powerful being in the MU

The Phoenix avatar is not even more epowerful than Galactus....she only won because she starved him

"if Phoenix is the sum of all who live and will live she is greater than eternity, the most powerful being in actuality is not bigger than being second to the creator as the creator would not exist within actuality the way the Phoenix Force exist outside of it in the white hot room.  Death has no power over the Phoenix or it's avatar unless said avatar willingly goes to Death, the Phoenix is in charge of an afterlife all it's own.  Jean, not Death ushered her family into the afterlife which one can only assume is the afterlife where she goes to, the white hot room not deaths realm.  Looking at the Phoenix is looking at the whole she is the spark of creation from which all things spring, so all others in the cosmology are the small parts of the greater whole.  The Watcher was also able to trap MM in an energy field without molecules rendering him powerless.  To say that the absence of life will be the end of the Phoenix is nonsense since when she manifests in reality without a host she prevents future life, yet she is still able to operate go figure.  The void that Phoenix is born/reborn in proves that it does not need life to sustain it, it's the other way around life needs the Phoenix to sustain it, as do the very stars."

thus  also making her weaker

DM

"thus  also making her weaker"

"Tevnoba said:

"Phoenix of the Black Throne said:

"if Phoenix is the sum of all who live and will live she is greater than eternity, the most powerful being in actuality is not bigger than being second to the creator as the creator would not exist within actuality the way the Phoenix Force exist outside of it in the white hot room.  Death has no power over the Phoenix or it's avatar unless said avatar willingly goes to Death, the Phoenix is in charge of an afterlife all it's own.  Jean, not Death ushered her family into the afterlife which one can only assume is the afterlife where she goes to, the white hot room not deaths realm.  Looking at the Phoenix is looking at the whole she is the spark of creation from which all things spring, so all others in the cosmology are the small parts of the greater whole.  The Watcher was also able to trap MM in an energy field without molecules rendering him powerless.  To say that the absence of life will be the end of the Phoenix is nonsense since when she manifests in reality without a host she prevents future life, yet she is still able to operate go figure.  The void that Phoenix is born/reborn in proves that it does not need life to sustain it, it's the other way around life needs the Phoenix to sustain it, as do the very stars."

Uatu trapped MM back when he was still limited by his own psychological problems.  And he did it because he feard that if MM were ever able to access his full power, nothing could stop him.

When the Phoenix manifests herself with or without a host, as described in Rachael Grey's battle with Galactus, and every time she uses her powers, future life is prevented from being born."

wrong again, the battle with Galactus being described was not Rachel, it was a hostless Phoenix Force manifestation, which cannot happen without a host or avatar without threatening future life, after Rachel had seemingly died.  Rachel was never a host to the Phoenix Force, she was able to tap it's power for her own usage.  The battle between her and Galactus involved him trying to seperate the Phoenix Force from Rachel and the stars going out as a result, he was basically told by Death, The Watcher and Roma that it was a fools errand as seperating the Phoenix from its choosen form would kill the universe him included, he says he won't be bound by entity or concept (or something like that) pushes a button to fire a weapon he believes will destroy the Phoenix, yet the Phoenix lives.  He is humbled by the experience and leaves.

Psychological problem Phoenix could put right back into place."

can dark phoenix defeat doctor manhattan? NO because manhattan is indestructible,  he can't die.
can doctor manhattan defeat dark phoenix? NO he could probably defeat the incarnation but not the phoenix itself.

"Doctor Manhattan is out of his league here. Dark Phoenix would destroy him."