@blacharrt said:
@Freefa11:
There must have been some internet issue I thought I replied to your post, i thought it came through.
Celestials should be able to handle anyone on Earth Easily as the Avengers found out with their encounter with the Eternals. Celestials are just as Powerful as a Full Powered Galactus as the Black Celestial arc showed. Celestials also created Human, Deviants, and Eternals. Also i would think the integration of Celestial technology into Apocalypse made it easier for them to manipulate him. Celestial are Giant robots of sorts.
Now As far as Dark Phoenix being above him, according to the watcher the Phoenix force is only second to the Creator it self, that puts even the living Tribunal under her in terms of power, but Dark Phoenix done anywhere near the damage that Annihilus who is well beneath her on the cosmic scale.
Black Celestial Arc didn't show that, Galactus didn't fight any of them, and the only Celestial involved was Tiamut, who was supposedly as powerful as all the others together anyway. And when has Annihilus personally done better than destroying a solar system?
The Point of the plot of the twelve wasn't fully revealed until Apocalypse told them after they had been captured. They thought they could actually stop him with the Twelve, and Apocalypse needed the power of the twelve to be able to take on the Celestial when they were suppose to come for him. X-Men vol.2 # 186 . That was the real point of The Twelve, and that failed so he tried to die to escape them
I.e. the point of The Twelve was for Apocalypse to amp himself well beyond his normal levels. That's what I said.
As far as Apocalypse being on Thanos's level, that's true, Thanos is most of the most power beings in Marvel universe he's also an Eternal, which were created by Celestials. Apocalypse is powerful enough to contend with Eternals and Deviants, who are far more powerful than most Earth Superheroes.. Although Apocalypse's main focus has been to develop the ultimate race, homo superior, he has never turned his efforts to Space or Cosmic Power, like Thanos. But Apocalypse is not weaker than thanos by any means he just chooses to use in powers in a different, most of which he doesn't use at all.
So you're basing this on the idea that if Thanos is an Eternal, he can't be much more powerful than any other Eternal? Sorry, but that's just not the case. Thanos is significantly stronger than any other member of his family and has traditionally been well above even Heralds of Galactus. Thanos has survived encounters with Tyrant and Odin, characters capable of one-shotting Heralds. His origins are irrelevant. What he is actually capable of is what matters, and he has actually proven his power many times.
In comparison, you are basically admitting that Apocalypse has never shown this kind of power, and are just theorizing that if he can fight some of the Eternals, he can fight any of them. That's just not very sound logic. Wolverine is a mutant. So is Apocalypse. That doesn't mean a character who can fight Wolverine can take on Apocalypse.
What/ When: Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix # 4, X-Men: Search for Cyclops # 4
In both issues the Summers family defeat Apocalypse. This is an important moment for Apocalypse because it's rather funny and tragic for him. His only real defeat come at the hands of the Summers clan (Stryfe/Cable, Cyclops, and Phoenix - these three together twice).
Never got around to reading those. However, the scan you posted doesn't indicate Phoenix (as the actual Phoenix Force) was involved. I'm pretty sure Rachel Summers had already lost it at that point, so unless Jean got it back, I don't think it was actually the Phoenix involved.
Apocalypse also lost to Cyclopse, Jean, and baby Cable in X-Factor 68.
@doomsummers
said:
@Freefa11: In issue of Uncanny X 382 Jean Grey was in her Phoenix form when she fought the the Shockwave Riders. This and the issue after that lead into the Search for Cyclops when she was still in her Phoenix Form. You showed me a scan from much earIier on. I actually read the comics of the characters in the battle threads. I asked you before, Do you read comics with Apocalypse in them? @Susanoo:
Yes, I did show you. Apparently you didn't pay attention. Jean Grey was not an avatar of the Phoenix at this point. She only took the name and costume back because she liked them. In the comic you cite, she didn't even have any telekinetic abilities. You really think Jean with the Phoenix Force can't even manage basic TK? The Dark Phoenix most people remember is the one from the old Claremont days who blew up a star and one-shotted the entire Imperial Guard, including Gladiator. The classic Green Phoenix people talk about is the one who contained the M'Kraan Crystal and defeated Firelord. The one you're talking about is just Jean Grey calling herself Phoenix with burned out TK. They are completely different. If you had actually read these comics like you claim, then you shouldn't need me to tell you that.
@blacharrt
said:
@Susanoo: that's more personal opinion that given his actual showings
@Roddy010: As i mentioned before, Apocalypse was/is written badly, 616 Apocalypse anyway he is by far one of the most underrated villains in the Marvel universe.
No, Apocalypse is consistently and grossly overrated. Apocalypse is powerful compared to the X-Men. He is not powerful compared to cosmic beings, but for some reason a lot of people try to put him up at that level, even though he's never shown that kind of power.
But that doesn't take away from the amount of power he can wield nor that fact that again at full power no one has beaten him 1 on 1.
So what if he's never been beaten? If you mainly pick on weaklings, then you'll win a lot. The most powerful single being I know of Apocalypse fighting is the High Evolutionary, except the High Evolutionary is inconsistent and has proven himself to be a terrible fighter more than once. From what I recall of that fight, it mainly proved he had bad aim. HE has also been beaten by Mr. Sinister, though that was more of an outsmarting.
Also for as powerful as the phoenix she is not as smart as apocalypse, and if i recalled correctly was beaten by magneto on several occasions in canon as both Green and Red Phoenix. And killed Red Phoenix.
Magneto beat Green Phoenix once, because she was limiting haq
So don't make it seem like Red Phoenix is unbeatable.
Dark Phoenix only lost when part of her wanted to. The entire Shi'ar Empire was scared of her. That takes some doing.
@blacharrt said:
@Buttplug: there is no need for name calling just because i have a different opinion than you based on the information i have. As i said before, I know what the phoenix is capable of, and it's not in doubt if she could win, but Apocalypse can win as well. He has never been beaten in a 1 on 1 confrontation. Even in the confrontations with the Phoenix, she couldn't do it by herself. Dark Phoenix is not more powerful than Green Phoenix, the only real difference is the amount of control Jean has over the phoenix force.
Apocalypse never fought the full blown Phoenix by himself. And Green Phoenix is severely limited compared to Dark Phoenix. If you don't know that, then you need to go read the Dark Phoenix Saga again. It's made very clear that Jean set up mental blocks in herself that actually prevented her from using her full power as Phoenix.
@blacharrt said:
@Roddy010: The Second Scan was to point out the Phoenix did try to confront Apocalypse but could not do it alone which is why she need Cable to Help Her, which she has in every single encounter with Apocalypse.
The second scan is taken completely out of context, so you either don't know what it is or you are being dishonest. That was not the real Phoenix, or the real Apocalypse, or even in the real world. That was taken place inside the mind of Neo, and was basically putting Jean through her own little private nightmare. Gambit was going through something similar involving the Mutant Massacre, as were Beast and Storm, who were also trapped in Neo's mind at the time. Jean was NOT an avatar of Phoenix at the time, she was just calling herself that. She didn't even have any TK at that point in time.
the Other scans were provided as a point of reference to the Fact that Apocalypse has never been beaten in Single combat, whether it was a full powered High Evolutionary, or Loki, or Ikaris, none of them has been able to beat him. That puts him at least on the level of Cosmic beings as I said he was before.
If he could actually harm HE or tank shots from him it might. All he really did was dodge around though, and HE is a terrible shot (can't even hit Galactus with any accuracy). I don't think Apocalypse really did anything to Loki either, and Loki isn't really at the level of Thanos or Heralds.
And also he was more than powerful enough to take no Onslaught and get rid of Franklin Richards, but Cable and Sue convinced him otherwise.
No he wasn't. If he was powerful enough to take on Onslaught then why did he need Cable's help to sneak into his fortress? He was powerful enough to kill a helpless Franklin, sure, but he didn't even try fighting Onslaught himself and he had no intention of doing so. And he wasn't "convinced" of anything; Sue forcefully blocked him from harming Franklin, and then Cable removed him from the area. Note that the guy you are claiming can take Onslaught 1-on-1 is shown, in your own scan, to have difficulty resisting and harming the Invisible Woman. He also takes a hard shot from Cable earlier in the issue, which sends him reeling.
And Phoenix was apart of the Onslaught series, and she couldn't do anything like that.
No she wasn't. Jean wasn't even calling herself Phoenix when Onslaught was around, let alone in possession of the Phoenix Force.
I said if you can prove that Apocalypse was beaten in single combat, i'd concede my point, but none of have even tried only stating the same thing over and over, which is the Phoenix is move powerful, which i haven't fought you on. But other than that you can't prove otherwise.
Apocalypse's win streak doesn't matter. What matters is the power he's actually demonstrated. You haven't done anything to show that his power is great enough to destroy Dark Phoenix, or that his durability is high enough to resist her attacks (or even that his mind is strong enough to resist her telepathy, which is greater than Xavier's). Dark Phoenix can destroy stars. What's Apocalypse's best durability feat? I'm pretty sure when Cyclops took him down in X-Factor 68, he was hitting with a lot less power than Dark Phoenix, seeing as the Moon wasn't destroyed.
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