Daredevil & Wolverine vs Batman & Captain America

No claws or healing factor? Team 2 then. Gadgets, intellect, and skill. Daredevil is the weakest link, and batman would take Wolverine without his healing factor and claws.

Team 1 in a good match

You can only call a feat PIS when its inconsistent and contradicts other feats preformed by the character. Daredevil being able to find a weak point in a 70 tonners body and stop his breathing, isn't inconsistent. The feat is perfectly consistent with him being able to take down tanks like kingpin (someone durable enough to tank blows from an enraged spiderman), wolverine and punisher with pressure points.

Its a PIS feat reguardless, and I am not the only one that calls it a PIS feat. Its inconstant regardless, of how you look at it. Show me more scans where Matt is pressure pointing 70 plus tonnes and I accept it as valid.

Kingpin is not a 70 tonner (prove that he is). So you know Spidey pulls his punches, read Back in Black where Peter fully beats down Fiskquite easily, he wasn't tank his blows and fighting back. Peter was demolishing him (still holding back). Again neither Wolverine or Punisher have the durability of a 70 tonner.

Just because a character is durable, doesn't mean he won't have weak points in his body that daredevil could exploit. If durability was a key factor in matt's pressure points, than both kingpin and wolverine would of simply shrugged matt's pp attacks off.

Durability would mean that it would be extremely hard to pressure point an opponent, due to them being tough. Either the opponent wasn't durable at all (or doesn't have good durability), or they are being jobbered. Thats like Bruce trying to PP Clark, he has weak points, but is far to durable for Bruce to PP. If that 70 tonner can be easily PP by Matt than that means his durability isn't great and anyone who possesses knowledge of PP can it him down easily.

Can you show me matt trying to use pressure points on an extremely durable opponent and failing? I mean if you believe it's PIS you must have something to back it up right?

Can you show me where he used more PP on opponents that are 70+ tonners consistently. I can use the fact that Ikira beat Matt down (someone who isn't a 70 tonner). I can see Matt failing to PP Cap unsuccessfully.

Okay? If we're going by PIS feats matt has beaten ultron.

Your the one using PIS not me, and If we go off of PIS Batman beat Etigan the Demon (magical deamon Superman level) and Martian Manhunter (both no prep) and they would destroy Ultron in a fight.

Unless the enhanced guy has durability feats on par with kingpin its irrelevant.

Not feeling pain is relevant, because they wouldn't feel it no matter what. And King Pins durability while great isn't impressive since Spidey deliberately holds back on him (pissed and calm). And taking a beating from Matt doesn't make him super durable.

Yet, bruce's pressure point feat's still aren't on par with matt's. So far, you've shown bruce knowing several different types of pressure points, yet you haven't shown him applying it to the same level matt has.

You are basing the entire PP thing around an incosistant PIS feat. Bruce knows eerything Matt does and more and he has utilized it.

That's not how battle forums work. If I show you a feat, and you believe it's inconsistent than you have to prove to me why it's inconsistent. Otherwise, I could just say all of your feats are pis and your argument is invalid. Can you show me daredevil failing to replicate a similar feat?

That is how a Battle forum works.

Matt hasn't taken any other 70 tonners down with PP beside that one. And you are trying to say Wolverine (again who is better than Matt in every regard), Punisher and King Pin 70 tonner durability. They don't, they don't have near that level of durability. Thats why I am saying it is inconstant. Show me more scans of him taking down 70 tonners and I won't call it PIS.

If you want to call PIS on Bruce go ahead, I am more than willing to discuss his fighting skill and showings. The reason why I am no using his PIS feats (because they are consistent), because Bruce fight high level opponents that have powers coming out the wazoo is way out of his league (even though he has consistently takeken them down with and without prep)

The difference is, those feats are contradictory to the feats those characters preform on a regular basis. Matt being able to PP a 70 tonner, and flip over a limo, don't directly contradict any of matt's past feats. In fact their somewhat consistent. Plus, those feats aren't even in the same ballpark of stupidity as matt flipping a limo.

They are very high end showing and aren't showcased as a regular part of his physical abilities. If thats the case Matt is a 3 tonner, which he isn't.

I'm not even going to argue about strength, since I don't believe that's very relevant to this fight in the first place.

Its relevant because stronger hits do more damage.

It's still an incredibly impressive feat considering punisher has been able to keep up with captain America in combat.

Yeah it is incredible (Not denying that) but so can a lot of other character from Marvel and DC, still doesn't justify Matt is speed blitzing Bruce. Especially when Bruce is more skilled than Matt, Punisher, and Cap (not together, individually).

I wouldn't say that's a very impressive marksmanship feat considering hush doesn't seem to be standing that far away from him, but even then I've shown that matt can preform the exact same feat easily.

Bullets being fired are bullets, if Bruce wasn't skilled he would have been shot, he wasn't. Still a valid feat.

Here daredevil is able to dodge a shotgun blast from bullseye (marvels best marksmen) in point blank range.

http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-4548392

Thats impressive. Thing is David Cain and DeadShot are Some of the best shots in DC Universe (DC doesn't just have one), and Deadshot especially can beat Bullseye in fight or game of throwing darts.

Once again, bruce doesn't have gear here, so any agility feats he accomplished with a grappling gun are irrelevant.

Once again you miss the point of the scan its not about the grapple gun (yes it was used because they would have been killed if they hit the floor), it to show case that Bruce was dodging in the air while trying to a someones life, thats impressive no matter how you slice it. It still doen't change the fact that he was dodging bullet gunfire.

The point of me showing those feats was to prove that just like bruce, matt is one of the top fighters in his world, besides I've already admitted that I don't think matt is as skilled h2h wise as bruce, except for with pressure points.

The point was me pointing out that all of those combatants could beat Matt in a fight, and each other under the same circumstances Panther and Iron Fist fought Matt. H2H and Pressure points are tied to both combatants skill level and Bruce has better skill in both areas.

Can you show me a single agility feat for bruce on par with matt that he accomplished without a grappling gun?

What do you want to see theres a lot. and I have already shown you some scans in my previous posts.

I mean do you seriously believe bruce has agility on par with someone who can consistently keep up with spiderman?

Seriously, you going to use this point. Matt can not keep up with Spider-Man like at all, unless PIS is directly involved. Spidey is worlds faster than Matt and way more agile than Matt Plus has may many attributes to his character that flat out bests Matts (number one being the Spider Sense) . Seriously Spidey speed feats alone prove what Matt cant keep up with him.

Bruce has no non Pis speed feats that are above what matt has done. like I've shown above every speed feat bruce has accomplished matt has accomplished easily.

Never said that, I said that Bruce has replicated many of Matts's feat (aside from the radar sense).

So you agree that matt has a speed and agility advantage, good to know.

I already said this like several post back and the gap is not huge, Bruce will be right there with him keeping up.

I'll ask again what agility feats does bruce have that are on par with matt's without a grappling gun?

I have already posted a couple back but here are the scans Sorry for the wall of text. (Also some of the photos got messed up and came out small, so can you just mark the ones that are small in your next post so I can repost them)

A rookie Batman evades uzis' shots at close range fired by him then quickly disarms and captures him (Batman Confidential #1): http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/batuzireflexes2.jpg

Shown using his acrobatic skill to dodge sub machine gunfire at close range and quickly close the distance to take down the impostor Batman shooter (Detective Comics v2 #10): http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/Agility-Speed/Gunfire/batagilityvsmachinegun.jpg

Dodges KGBeast bullets in a uncomfortable position: http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/th_batman419-10nightsofbeast2.jpg

Rushes gun men: http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/Agility-Speed/Gunfire/detective743-batgunrush.jpg

Dodgesthe Reapers Gunfire: http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/year2_batbulletdodge.jpg

Eludes more gunfire: http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/Agility-Speed/Gunfire/gothamknights27-batvsuzis1.jpg

Evades some more: http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/Agility-Speed/Gunfire/justiceleague1-batvsgcpd2.jpg

Surronded and saves a kid:

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/Agility-Speed/Speed/th_batman576-batvsmercs1.jpg

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/Agility-Speed/Speed/th_batman576-batvsmercs2.jpg

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/Agility-Speed/Speed/th_batman576-batvsmercs3.jpg

Deadshot dodge: http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/th_batshotduck.jpg

Despite being surrounded and greatly outnumbered by many armed guards, he's able to rush and disarm them before they can react (Legends of the Dark Knight #165):

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/Agility-Speed/Speed/lotdk165-batblinkspeed1.jpg

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/Agility-Speed/Speed/lotdk165-batblinkspeed2.jpg

Dodges Firestorm's nuclear blasts at close range while wearing a hazmat suit also displaying skill in the process (Brave and the Bold #172)

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/Special%20Prep/Battles/th_bravebold172-batmanvsfirestorm4.jpg

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/Special%20Prep/Battles/th_bravebold172-batmanvsfirestorm5.jpg

Surprise-attacked by the Composite Superman (artificial lifeform created with the DNA of, among others, Batman and Superman, mistaken here for the kryptonian), Bats is quick enough to first dodge his heat-vision, than to reflect it back to him with a lead-backed mirror (Superman Batman Annual #3):

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/th_batvsheatvision.jpg

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/th_batvsheatvision2.jpg

Dodges Freeze Ray: http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/batfreezeblast.jpg

Dodes raygun fire: http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/Agility-Speed/Gunfire/bravebold161-rannraygun2.jpg

Dodges Dr.Lights Light Ray up close: http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/Strategy-Tactics/Solo%20Battles/th_supermanbatman43-fortressbattle4.jpg

Dodges Power Ring’s Blast: http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/Fear-Respect/foreverevil4-sinestrobatmanvspowering2.jpg

Again like I said Bruce does have the scans to put him up there with Matt in terms of speed and agility. Also Bruce has stalemated Dick, Shiva, Tiger, and Dragon all which are faster than him.

So far, you've shown nothing to suggest why matt won't be able to outpace bruce the same way he did cap, especially when cap is physically superior to bruce.

And you have shown me nothing that puts Matt worlds faster than Bruce, Bruce Kept up with Slade (a person that can beat Cap in a fight for a strong majority) in a majority of their fight (even though he lost) he was successful in wounding Slade.

I mean, it would literally only take one blow from matt to either blind or incap bruce, and considering even you agree that matt is faster than bruce, it won't be hard at all for matt to land that blow.

That works both ways one tough from either will end the match, and since you have already admitted than Bruce is more skilled in h2h, which means it would be very difficult for Matt to land a blow. Also I stated that Matt is slightly faster not worlds faster and keep in mind if neither of them is wearing their suits, than Bruce will be just as fact since he isn’t weighed down by armor. Also if they are wearing there suits my statment still remains that Bruce will still be able to keep up with Bruce.

The only advantages bruce holds over matt is a slight h2h skill advantage, and an irrelevant strength advantage.

Bruce holds many advantages over Matt. Like I previously stated in strength (it matters), skilled (stated to have mastered 127 styles and over 400+ ways to incap, the skill gap isn’t slight), better tactical/strategic mind, durability, etc. Matt literally has a very slight speed/agility advantage. Bruce can very well keep up with him, like I previously stated he has stalemated quick opponents than him Shiva, Tiger, and Dragon. If you factor everything in that they have Bruce will win.

Stop with the quoting please

Team 1 BTW.I stand by Bruce beating Matt but Logan is easily the MVP here

That is horrible argument. Just becasue Bruce isn't superhuman doesn't mean he can't hang with low level superhumans in combat. And besides daredevil is not superhuman. He's peak human with superhuman senses. And another thing...he is the weak link.

Yes he is.

Cap is not more skilled than Wolverine. Though the loss of his healing factor will effect Logan's ability to maximize his fighting style. For that reason, and that reason only, I think Cap can cause Logan serious trouble herein.

I'm going with Cap and Bats.

Cap is being underrated, and Matt is being underrated herein. I think Steve Rogers can beat Logan without the healing factor with morals off. A shield strike will be absolutely brutal (and has already been proven to hurt Wolverine with his healing factor intact), and Wolverine's fighting style is contingent on him being able to soak those types of hits. Without his claws and healing factor, he's going to have a heck of a struggle here.

Matt vs. Bruce morals off would be a hell of a fight to witness. At the end of the day, Bruce is just too clever. He'll know right away that Matt is blind, and is functioning via other senses. Bruce has too many tools as well. I see a morals off Steve and Bruce being absolutely scary herein. I have to give this, tentatively, to team two. We cannot ignore how gimped Wolverine's ability to fight has been portrayed of late without his healing factor. Batroc nearly made him is b!tch for the love of ... hurts to say. But it is what it is.

Let's not get too confused ... Cap is only the better man here because Logan has grown too accustomed to using his healing factor to support his ingrained fighting style.

Overall, Wolverine has far better martial feats than Steve does. Cornell's treatment of Logan cannot be 100% ignored unfortunately. Wolverine is the worst at avoidance of all combatants here, but he is not the least skilled. Insofar as pure martial skill is concerned, I would say it's Batman, Wolverine, DD then Steve. And this based off feats.

@super_soldierxii: Eh I'd place Logan and Bruce on dead even terms just it's more consistently used by Bruce and usually shown as a powerset of Bruce for performing some of his feats

Have to disagree hard there, but you're entitled to your own opinion. No way in the world is Logan better at H2H than anyone in this thread, especially not better in H2H than Cap. And Batman being the least skilled at H2H?..You got me puzzled sorry.

Then, with respect, you really haven't read too much Wolverine.

He's had 20,000+ showings in comics. There's a lot highlighting his healing factor and little else in there. I guess, only the long term fans of the character are aware of the accumulation of his skill feats that places him in the top echelon.

Reread what I wrote. How did you get Batman being the least skilled in that? I said, clearly, he was the most skilled followed by Wolverine, DD and Cap.

But don't you see a contradiction in what you just wrote? I mean, if it's more consistently used by Bruce, and if it's more clearly highlighted in his feats, then does that not entail he should be viewed as the more skilled tween the two?

Don't think it's a huge gap mind you, but I do think Bruce fights "smarter" which gives a slight advantage in the pure hand to hand department. Wolverine's healing factor works against him here, as he relies too heavily upon it.

Nope. He's not. He barely keeps up with spiderman. I remeber one comic where he was able to anticipate his movements but was too slow to react. One of your argument legitimately talks about Matt being able to anticipate movement. Show me where he has sperhuman speed. I doubt you can. It seems as if you are confusing his superhuman sense with superhuman speed as he is able to anticipate movments. Dodging gunfire bullets and lasers do not count becasue, lets be honest, so can plenty other street levelers including Bruce. And it seems like most of your arguments are missing some context. While the fight with dardevil is rather impressive some might argue BP was trying to talk him down. Still nice feat. The one with Iron fist is what I have a problem with. Danny was an imposter trying to mimmick Daredevils moves so no one would susupect he isn't daredevil. He wasn't used to his style of fighting which is why he had trouble fighting him. Now for your pressure point argument. I'll allow the fact that he used pressure points against a 70 tonner. What I will not allow is you regurgitating that same argument used by different user and trying to justify he will do the same thing to Bruce. Be creative. When Matt fights people as skilled as he is he rarely uses pressure points. Now someone as skilled as Bruce is not going to allow presure point to work on him. Oh and the Wolverine argument? Yeah that's often a very laughable low showing. I mean seriosuly a guy who tanks gun shots to the face, has a healing factor, is able to take on thousands ( maybe hundreds I'll have to check) of fodder ninja's is taken down with a nerve strike to the throat? Completely laughable. One of your arguments include defeating punisher. You claim DD can beat punisher. I agree. But one of your arguments about puniser is that he defeated DP. It is important to note he had weapons when defeating him. Wade is rarely serious most of the time. He has showing of running to catche up to a plane, stalemating Captain America( yes I know DD has done the same), and plent other feats that make him a low level superhuman. You also claimed he has tagged spiderman. Again with weapons. DD can defeat Punisher yes, but Punisher defeating DP and tagging spidey is sort of a worthless feat to use as he did not tag them in with his bare hands, but with weapons.

And your last comment. Completely laughable.

Ah I apologize I read what you said backwards. I'd still say most skilled are Batman and Cap. They're just more technical fighters. Training and knowledge are good, but consistent showings are what counts. And don't get me wrong, I do place Logan in the top echelon of fighters, saying he's the least skilled of these 4 fighters would still place him there. At beast his H2H is on par with Daredevil. Bruce and Cap have to rely heavily on their H2H prowess and have never had the luxury of relying on an indestructible skeleton or the ability to heal from losing a limb. Cap has hurt Logan with a shield blast to the head, and Logan has been incapacitated by Spiderwoman...she stabbed him with his own claws lol...His H2H is good, but it's not on Cap or Bruce's lvl IMO.

@comicace3:

Meh ... "barely" keeping up with Spider-Man does not denote DD's reflexes to be less than superhuman. Spider-Man is not just top of the echelon with regards reflexes, he has precog on top of that. So the comparison is not really a just one. The fact DD has been able to even compete however minutely with Parker is an astounding feat in and of itself.

Heck, DD has even defeated Spider-Man ... PIS, yes, but he's not to be overlooked all the same.

DD deflects and redirects multiple bullets with his billy clubs. That's superhuman. I would say DD's reflexes are low level superhuman due to radar sense without fault.

I can agree with this.

The Bat master and Mr 'Murica for me.

False. I only said it twice. Once with your DD vs Wolverine and once for your comment about me not knowing what I am talking about. Childish? Aw such a shame. And to think I was going to have fun for a minute. If you want to back down from a fight at least have the dignity to say you were wrong instead of making false claims to make it look like I am the bad guy.

No claws doesn't mean much to Wolverine since his bones are still covered in Adamantium and are effectively Adamantium bludgeoning weapons, especially combined with his strength. He's has also opened a can on both Psylocke and the Mandarin without his healing factor so Wolverine has shown the ability to be able to fight effectively without having to tank everything and letting his healing factor deal with it.

Under these conditions I'm going with Team 1. Bats could have a multitude of ways of messing with Daredevil's senses if he had gear but without then he's at a serious disadvantage. Mat not having his clubs isn't too much of a disadvantage for him considering he still has all of his powers. Logan and Matt may not be as skilled as the two peak humans but they are skilled enough to be competitive and their superhuman stats will more than compensate for their slightly lower skill deficit.

@dodirty: Yeah, no. Daredevil isn't stalemating Batman when Batman is superior to him in literally every aspect except hearing and smelling.

Nah, I'd give a slight edge in reflexes to daredevil. But I agree Bruce can edge out a vicotry.

and Agility and Speed

Yeah.

@super_soldierxii:

1. Cap is peak human

2. He kinda of is. Give Wolverine the same stats. Take their fight in AvX, Cap won Wolvie was pretty sloppy.

Gallery

(sorry If I put in the URLs in the wrong order)

I guess i'll retype it anyway.

Ok, so by your logic batman knowing 127 martial art forms is PIS. I mean its only been stated once, and a human being couldn't possibly learn that many martial arts forms in a life time.

It has actually been stated several times as being very very skilled here are a few instances:

Lady Shiva: http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11113/111132338/4489500-6726954544-detectiveannual1-batmanmeetshiva1.jpg~original

Every Violent Art: http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/Martial%20Arts/Knowledge/batwidegyre4-463ways.jpg

Master of all fighting: http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/det411.jpg

Master 127 fighting stlyes: http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/batcd127-1.jpg

More pressure point knowledge: http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/nwstrikequote.jpg and this point is furthered through his extensive use of PP

And also several DC hand books have stated he is a master of all fighting, not PIS

He also has the combat feats to prove he is top notch.

I never even implied that kingpin was a 70 tonner. Your completely missing the point, which is that kingpin has fallen off of large bridge into the water unharmed, took an axe to the back and shrugged it off, and has been unable to be ko'ed by matt with simple blunt force attacks, yet matt still took him down with pressure points. Wolverine can literally heal from anything yet, he got one shotted by matt's pp. So why is it inconsistent that matt can stop a 70 tonners breathing?

While it is not you intention, it sounds like your Implying that just because Matt has PP Wolverine, Punisher, and King Pin(who all don't have 70 tonner durability) that, that justifies his 70 tonner feat. It doesn't because unless they are 70 tonners the PP of the 70 tonnere is on consistant. And I know what King Pin has been through Damage soak-wise and his durability feats don't put him, on the level of a 70 tonner.

Just because a character is durable doesn't mean he doesn't have weak points.

Depends on the degree of durability, usually 70 tonners have 70 tonner durability.

In GL rebirth John stewart beat superman by attacking his eyes.

You do know that he did that with his green lantern ring (the most power weapon in the universe), Bruce could do that too if he had the tools, such as spitting K-Gum in his eye.

In old man logan wolverine cut hulk in half by slashing him from the inside.

Well that’s an alternate universe, but ok admantium can slide darn near through anything.

Daredevil can tell where someone's weak points are with his radar sense. Their's no reason why he won't be able to replicate his past pp feats on bruce.

Because Bruce is more skilled than him, while it is a possibility I don't see Bruce getting PP easily just like I don't see Matt getting pressure pointed easily.

Also Bruce is trained in the art of anticipation, so it going to be really hard for Matt to land a hit on him with a PP, especially since he knows what they wall look like and how to reverse them (of coures depending on if Matt lands them or not)

Ikira, Black Panther(had his suit on so it wouldn't work), Iron Fist are all more skilled than Matt, Elektra, Bullseye and when he was in a fight with them he necessarily PP, them so that leads me to believe that he has a hard time PP skilled opponents.

Unless matt tried to use pressure points on ikira it's irrelevant. Matt didn't try to use pressure points on cap. What are you talking about?

The point is that Matt is knowledgeable on PP, why didn’t he use them on Ikira or Cap, to make the fights a whole lot easier for him, especially Ikira.

I'm not. Your trying to call a feat pis, simply because you don't agree with it. Also i'm not trying to start a martian manhunter vs ultron debate, but if you seriously think ultron would get stomped by a superman tier being, than I suggest you learn more about the character.

Its a PIS feat nothing else suggest Matt can do PP a 70 tonner. Your entire argument has been really based around that one point, when I have brought up several as to why Bruce would win.

I know about Ultron, but Im sure a magical being Superman and a very powerful alien with immense powers could beat Ultron (But like you said different battle).

Not feeling pain is irrelevant , because that doesn't effect durability.

Kinda does.

Taking hits from a holding back spider man is still impressive.

Not when He is deliberately hitting you not to kill, or seriously injure you.

Bane cant feel pain yet he still couldn't take the beatdown kingpin took from spider man.

Only on high amounts of venom he cant feel pain, and Sure Bane can because Spidey will be holding back like the great hero he is.

Even if we ignore the 70 tonner feat, bruce still has no feats on par with matt taking down wolverine and kingpin with pp.

If we ignore the 70 tonner feat, then it depends on how we judge all we know on their PP.

Bruce has replicated Matt's PP knowledge

by reversing the effects of other PP: http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/bat%20pics%202/BatmanandRobin04RiZZ3N-Zonepg10.jpg

Causing Lois Lane affecting Lois Lane short term memory: http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/batmemorystrike2.jpg and http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/batmemorystrike3.jpg

Uses Dim Mak techniques to get a psycho to talk (Legends of The Dark Knight #205): http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/Martial%20Arts/Knowledge/lotdk205-batdimmak.jpg

Combat wise Bruce PP

Using the two most deadly nerve strikes in all martial arts against the magically super powered Eddie Hurst however the strikes have no effect on the Eddie due to his magical invulnerability (Detective Comics #788): http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/batkillstrikes.jpg

Using pressure point attacks to the nerve clusters, he KOes a group of cybernetic enhanced Gorillas with quasi-telekinetic abilities that boosts their IQ's greatly (JLA Incarnations #2): http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/Mobs-Teams/Skill/jlaincarnations2-batvsupergorillas2.jpg

Knocks out 4-armed meta with a 2 finger touch (Green Arrow & Black Canary #10): http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/batmetatouch.jpg

Quickly knocks out a super steroid enhanced weight lifter who's impervious to pain using his martial arts skill and rapid pressure point attacks/techniques (Detective Comics v2 #17): http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/Martial%20Arts/Knowledge/detective17-batouch3.jpg

So he has enough scans to suggest he can successfully PP Kingpin, As for Wolverine scan while I will say its impressive, Wolverine is Faster and vastly more trained than Matt, Plus he has a healing factor. Judging by the scan (again while impressive) it is evident that Wolverine was Jobbered. Especially since he dominated Matt in a later fight.

Also if bruce knows everything matt does than why are bruce's pp feats not on par with matt's?

He fights enemies on his own terms, and because the opponents such as Shiva, Tiger, Dragon all know what they look like they can counter it. Every other villain in his rouges He can easily one shot.

If Matt is so skilled with his PP then why didn't he beat Ikira, Cap and Iron FIst with them?

I never once said that punisher and kingpin have 70 tonner durability, and once again unless you can prove that its inconsistent, you saying that it's PIS is just your opinion.

I know you didn’t say that they were 70 tonners, but using them to justify Matt putting down a 70 tonner doesn’t make that feat consistent. What makes the 70 tonner valid is Matt has taken down other 70 tonners, he hasn’t there for he is inconsistent with that feat.

I just did prove the 70 tonner feat is inconsistent (show me where Matt has taken down other 70 tonners), Im letting you have the King Pin and Punisher, Wolverine a little debatable because depending on the writer we get a different skill set for Wolverine.

Matt would be a three tonner if he actually lifted the limo, he didn't. He flipped it over.

Which would suggest he isn’t stronger than Bruce.

Yet, bruce will barely be able to even tag matt, and even if he does get in close range, matt will be able to one or two shot him.

Bruce will tag Matt just like Ikira, Iron Fist, Black Panther, The Shrowd, Elektra, etc has. Unless you can prove Matt is worlds faster than Bruce, he getting tagged. Keep in mind Shiva is faster than Bruce and so is Nightwing, and he has tagged them just fine. Bruce isn’t even that slow and Matt isn’t even that fast.

Can you prove that bruce is more skilled than cap? because cap has been said to know every martial art known to man as well.

No he isn’t Cap is said to be adept in all forms of fighting, adept is different than mastering.

It's a valid speed feat, but not a valid marksmanship feat.

Sure but still its bullets and he dodged them.

Deadshot being more accurate than bullseye is extremely debatable.

Ill agree with this point but Deadshot in a fight im sure would beat Bullseye.

Iron fist and black panther being able to beat matt takes nothing away from matt,

Never said it did.

considering their both superhuman. And by feats they would beat bruce pretty easily.

Nope not easily, and I could debate this but that’s different fight.

I never said that matt is as agile as spiderman, but considering matt has kept up with spiderman on three different occasions it's not pis.

Oh its PIS whenever Matt does, he doen’t hold a candle to Spidey in terms of speed and reaction or anything really.

So far, bruce hasn't dodged a sniper bullet after it was fired, easily dance around machine gun fire, speedblitze someone as fast as punisher, or outpace someone like Captain america.

Oh he has here it is: http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/Agility-Speed/Gunfire/lotdk174-batvsgcpd2.jpg and http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/Agility-Speed/Gunfire/lotdk174-batvsgcpd3.jpg

Punisher Is not faster than Bruce and Bruce kept up with Slade.

Those aren't agility feats on par with matt's. Their speed feats that matt could easily replicate.

There good enough agility and speed feats to show than Bruce has replicated Matts feats and to show Bruce is fast enough to keep up with Matt.

Also bruce dodging power ring and superman's heat vision isn't pis, but matt keeping up with spiderman is? Biased much?

Just threw those scans out there, like I said in my previous post “and then some” (these would be in that category), and obviously there his high end showings, but Bruce is in fact consistent with dodging things like that.

I never said that matt is worlds faster than bruce, I said that bruce won't tag matt.

By saying that your implying Matt is. Bruce will tag Matt, nothing you have shown suggests that he wouldn’t be able to.

A small h2h advantage won't keep matt from tagging bruce, especially when matt is faster. Once again how will bruce be any more able to tag matt than cap?

Like I said the h2h advantage isn’t small its large (not saying Matt isn’t skilled). Matt isn’t that much faster unless you can prove something that puts im way out of Bruce’s speed range.

Bruce kept up with Slad someone better than Matt and Cap.

Tactics and durability won't matter when your opponent can one shot you.

Oh it does, because Bruce an Identify the PP Matt will go for and evidence of his high martial arts fights he doesn’t go for PP often (if not at all). Durability will mean regular punches from Matt will do less damage. And a tactical mind will allow Bruce to put Matt right where he wants him. Like I said Bruce holds way to many advantages over Matt.

Bottom line Matt is very skilled I am not saying he isn’t, he is a formidable foe, but at the end of the day Bruce holds so many advantages over him. Bruce will win but not easily. Like I have said and will keep saying, if we truly factor everything into the character like I am doing Bruce comes out on top.

@hammer_of_j2 said:

@super_soldierxii:

1. Cap is peak human

2. He kinda of is. Give Wolverine the same stats. Take their fight in AvX, Cap won Wolvie was pretty sloppy.

Gallery

(sorry If I put in the URLs in the wrong order)

Cap is not "peak human". He is the pinnacle of human potentate. Big difference. A peak human cannot run 60 mph. Cannot dodge bullets because the "see" faster. Cannot heal from bullet wounds in mere days as opposed to months.

Cap is most definitely an enhanced human. Common knowledge.

Wolverine beat Cap easily in AvX. He would have killed him in the opening volley had he wanted to. Instead, he lands a precision strike on Cap's shield straps and merely disarms him instead of taking his arm off and lands cosmetic strikes only. Steve had no chance. And dialogue all but spells that out. As does the fight.

@hammer_of_j2 said:

@super_soldierxii:

1. Cap is peak human

2. He kinda of is. Give Wolverine the same stats. Take their fight in AvX, Cap won Wolvie was pretty sloppy.

Gallery

(sorry If I put in the URLs in the wrong order)

He's not. He's enhanced.

@super_soldierxii: @comicace3:"The Super-Soldier Serum (SSS) metabolized and enhanced all of Rogers' bodily functions to the peak of human potential."- Marvel Wikia Steve Rogers page (because he is Commander Steve Rogers now)

http://marvel.wikia.com/Captain_America_(Steven_Rogers)

"The Super-Soldier Serum, also called the Super-Soldier Formula, is the name for a process to increase the physical attributes of its recipient to the peak of human potential"- Marvel Wikia Super soldier Serum page

http://marvel.wikia.com/Super-Soldier_Serum

"In the beginning the Super-Soldier Serum increased his body to the physical peak of human potential"-Comic Vine Captain America page

http://www.comicvine.com/captain-america/4005-1442/

First, wiki is not the most reliable of sources. Just saying.

Second, the "peak of human potential" does not denote peak human. Looking at physical strength, the penultimate of human potential far exceeds what a 200 lbs Matt Murdock (for example) can physically achieve strength wise as peak human is being able to lift twice ones own body weight but no more than 800 lbs.

Steve can lift 800 lbs by default, despite his body weight. His senses are all enhanced. His intellect is enhanced (memorizes instantly what he sees). He heals far faster than a normal "peak" human. His reflexes and speed are all enhanced, including travelling speed.

Steve Rogers is an enhanced human. Aside from dozens of feats, Ed Brubaker, one of Cap's more prolific writers, has gone on record a few times delineating this fact.

.....And also....Uh...uhm.... nope you got it covered.

What I thought as well. I don't understand where 'peak human' even comes into play when describing Cap. He's clearly enhanced, just like Black Panther, or Slade. They far exceed peak human IMO. Batman and NW are peak human.

team 1

I know it may not be the "most reliable sources" but I didn't have time took actually look for scans where it was stated (and I was lazy). But what is the chance that all of these sources got the information wrong.

Please tell me what your in definition of "peak of human potential" and peak human because I literally just meant to say that he wasn't considered super human.