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#1 Posted by oceanmaster21 (10871 posts) - - Show Bio

Morals off

no prep

standard gear

battle is in New York

who wins and why

#2 Posted by RogueShadow (14603 posts) - - Show Bio

Daredevil stomps. Mismatch.

#3 Posted by nickzambuto (17769 posts) - - Show Bio

Daredevil can probably whoop Batman.

#4 Edited by Wolverine08 (47859 posts) - - Show Bio

Another Robin dies I see.

#5 Posted by oceanmaster21 (10871 posts) - - Show Bio
#6 Posted by Wolverine08 (47859 posts) - - Show Bio
#7 Edited by Transformers47 (45 posts) - - Show Bio

Daredevil stomps

#8 Posted by Hollow_Point (670 posts) - - Show Bio

Another Robin dies I see.

yup

Daredevil can probably whoop Batman.

i've been reading more dd lately, and honestly, in a h2h fight and no prep, i see matt pulling off the win

#9 Posted by dagmar_merrill (12054 posts) - - Show Bio
#10 Posted by Jayc1324 (16525 posts) - - Show Bio

Tim knows the leopard blow which can kill in one touch. He can win if he uses that. I would also say he's a better fighter. Matt probably wins a majority but with morals off tim can beat him too.

#11 Edited by Wolverine08 (47859 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayc1324 said:

Tim knows the leopard blow which can kill in one touch. He can win if he uses that. I would also say he's a better fighter. Matt probably wins a majority but with morals off tim can beat him too.

Tim literally has nothing to back this idea up at all.

#12 Posted by nightwing737 (1268 posts) - - Show Bio

Daredevil with little to no problem.

#13 Posted by DarthAznable (10327 posts) - - Show Bio

Don't do this to my favorite Robin. I like him living.

Daredevil can probably whoop Batman.

Nah.

#14 Posted by Jayc1324 (16525 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08: He took on about twenty league of assassin ninjas at once, trained with lady Shiva extensively, and beat her in a sparring contest with his staff. He can hang with matt in that department at the very least.

#15 Posted by Wolverine08 (47859 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayc1324: Daredevil beat 100+ Yakuza thugs who were physically amped on MGH in under three minutes. Taking on 20 League of Assassin ninja at once is not that impressive in comparison. Matt has also stalemated Captain America while being hindered by anti radar sense chaffs, fought Taskmaster along with several other people, stalemated an Iron Fist whom was having some trouble mimicking Matt's fighting style, has gotten the upperhand on Black Panther, etc. Tim beat Shiva in that in a sparring match due to a speed enhancing drug IIRC.

#16 Posted by dagmar_merrill (12054 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayc1324: Daredevil beat 100+ Yakuza thugs who were physically amped on MGH in under three minutes. Taking on 20 League of Assassin ninja at once is not that impressive in comparison. Matt has also stalemated Captain America while being hindered by anti radar sense chaffs, fought Taskmaster along with several other people, stalemated an Iron Fist whom was having some trouble mimicking Matt's fighting style, has gotten the upperhand on Black Panther, etc. Tim beat Shiva in that in a sparring match due to a speed enhancing drug IIRC.

While I agree Daredevil is far superior in H2H.. I just would like to know do you have a scan for the Yakuza Thugs one?

#17 Posted by nickzambuto (17769 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08 said:

@jayc1324: Daredevil beat 100+ Yakuza thugs who were physically amped on MGH in under three minutes. Taking on 20 League of Assassin ninja at once is not that impressive in comparison. Matt has also stalemated Captain America while being hindered by anti radar sense chaffs, fought Taskmaster along with several other people, stalemated an Iron Fist whom was having some trouble mimicking Matt's fighting style, has gotten the upperhand on Black Panther, etc. Tim beat Shiva in that in a sparring match due to a speed enhancing drug IIRC.

While I agree Daredevil is far superior in H2H.. I just would like to know do you have a scan for the Yakuza Thugs one?

I've heard from the grapevine that those scans are out of context and Matt only managed to survive for three minutes until the FBI came to save him, or something like that. Is this true?

#18 Posted by Wolverine08 (47859 posts) - - Show Bio

@dagmar_merrill said:

@wolverine08 said:

@jayc1324: Daredevil beat 100+ Yakuza thugs who were physically amped on MGH in under three minutes. Taking on 20 League of Assassin ninja at once is not that impressive in comparison. Matt has also stalemated Captain America while being hindered by anti radar sense chaffs, fought Taskmaster along with several other people, stalemated an Iron Fist whom was having some trouble mimicking Matt's fighting style, has gotten the upperhand on Black Panther, etc. Tim beat Shiva in that in a sparring match due to a speed enhancing drug IIRC.

While I agree Daredevil is far superior in H2H.. I just would like to know do you have a scan for the Yakuza Thugs one?

I've heard from the grapevine that those scans are out of context and Matt only managed to survive for three minutes until the FBI came to save him, or something like that. Is this true?

It's something of both really. He was starting to get the upperhand on them when the fight happened in Daredevil #52 until the FBI interrupted the fight.

#19 Edited by nickzambuto (17769 posts) - - Show Bio
#20 Posted by YourNeighborhoodComicGeek (20890 posts) - - Show Bio

Daredevil would absolutely wreck Tim. This honestly isn't fair.

#21 Edited by Jayc1324 (16525 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08: The first time they fought was when Shiva was training tim. He beat her fair and square in a sparring match with a staff and then she gave him the bo he uses now as a reward. The second time they fought tim did use a drug to enhance himself. But not the time he beat her with the staff.

On the other hand, I looked up scans online of the fights you mentioned and it seems like he was doing so well against those guys because of his agility. The way he dodges their punches and kicks wasnt really martial arts prowess. I'm not saying he can't fight, I also found scans if him detailing nerve strikes and clusters and easy ways to take people down, but I must question how much of a role his ability played in those fights.

#22 Posted by nickzambuto (17769 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayc1324 said:

@wolverine08: The first time they fought was when Shiva was training tim. He beat her fair and square in a sparring match with a staff and then she gave him the bo he uses now as a reward. The second time they fought tim did use a drug to enhance himself. But not the time he beat her with the staff.

On the other hand, I looked up scans online of the fights you mentioned and it seems like he was doing so well against those guys because of his agility. The way he dodges their punches and kicks wasnt really martial arts prowess. I'm not saying he can't fight, I also found scans if him detailing nerve strikes and clusters and easy ways to take people down, but I must question how much of a role his ability played in those fights.

As if agility and evading doesn't play any role in a fight?

#23 Posted by dagmar_merrill (12054 posts) - - Show Bio
#24 Edited by nickzambuto (17769 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:

k4 is a great debater, but that article is still just the opinion of one sole man, an opinion that plenty of people disagree with. By no means is it completely objective truth.

I agree but I think it provides enough evidence that Dardevil wouldn't "whoop" Batman. Maybe beat him.. but Daredevil would work for it.

Agreed 100%.

#25 Posted by dagmar_merrill (12054 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:

@dagmar_merrill said:

@wolverine08 said:

@jayc1324: Daredevil beat 100+ Yakuza thugs who were physically amped on MGH in under three minutes. Taking on 20 League of Assassin ninja at once is not that impressive in comparison. Matt has also stalemated Captain America while being hindered by anti radar sense chaffs, fought Taskmaster along with several other people, stalemated an Iron Fist whom was having some trouble mimicking Matt's fighting style, has gotten the upperhand on Black Panther, etc. Tim beat Shiva in that in a sparring match due to a speed enhancing drug IIRC.

While I agree Daredevil is far superior in H2H.. I just would like to know do you have a scan for the Yakuza Thugs one?

I've heard from the grapevine that those scans are out of context and Matt only managed to survive for three minutes until the FBI came to save him, or something like that. Is this true?

It's something of both really. He was starting to get the upperhand on them when the fight happened in Daredevil #52 until the FBI interrupted the fight.

So.. Scans? :D

#26 Posted by jashro44 (29214 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayc1324 said:

@wolverine08: The first time they fought was when Shiva was training tim. He beat her fair and square in a sparring match with a staff and then she gave him the bo he uses now as a reward. The second time they fought tim did use a drug to enhance himself. But not the time he beat her with the staff.

On the other hand, I looked up scans online of the fights you mentioned and it seems like he was doing so well against those guys because of his agility. The way he dodges their punches and kicks wasnt really martial arts prowess. I'm not saying he can't fight, I also found scans if him detailing nerve strikes and clusters and easy ways to take people down, but I must question how much of a role his ability played in those fights.

Tim beat shiva in the spar you mention because she got distracted by his staff. As for saying that daredevil didn't survive those fights with skill I don't see how you could say that. Black Panther and Captain America are physically better then Matt and in the fight with black panther he wasn't flipping around IIRC.

This is a mismatch. And Murdock is more skilled.

#27 Posted by Wolverine08 (47859 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayc1324:

The first time they fought was when Shiva was training tim. He beat her fair and square in a sparring match with a staff and then she gave him the bo he uses now as a reward. The second time they fought tim did use a drug to enhance himself. But not the time he beat her with the staff.

Tim beat her because she got distracted by his staff, and needed a speed enhancing drug the second time. It's proof enough that he can't take her one on one, and I don't know why you are trying to cite it as evidence for Tim being able to hang with Matt.

On the other hand, I looked up scans online of the fights you mentioned and it seems like he was doing so well against those guys because of his agility. The way he dodges their punches and kicks wasnt really martial arts prowess. I'm not saying he can't fight, I also found scans if him detailing nerve strikes and clusters and easy ways to take people down, but I must question how much of a role his ability played in those fights.

This is a fairly ridiculous notion frankly. Matt couldn't have gotten the upperhand on Black Panther just by avoiding him. He got up close and personal on him and traded fistcuffs. Plus, those guys are just as agile as Matt with their superhuman stats. He wasn't doing flips, etc. when he stalemated Iron Fist.

#28 Edited by Jayc1324 (16525 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: You're right, it does play a role in a fight. But I was questioning just their fighting skills, not who can use their physical abilities better. @jashro44: I know, i have seen the comic, but it still takes skill to beat Shiva. I didn't say he didn't survive them with skill but from what I saw he was flipping around and doing all kinds of crazy moves. So I was just questioning how much or those fights were survived because of his agility. I know they are superior physically but he seems to use it more. For example the scans I saw showed him dodge cap's shield and dodge all of his moves. He even got a couple of hits on Steve but Steve still won in the end.

#29 Posted by SwordandShields (922 posts) - - Show Bio

Dare Devil beats up Timmy so hard it's not funny.

#30 Edited by Jayc1324 (16525 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08: because Shiva is a too DC fighter and it takes skill to be able to beat her. And beating Shiva and with enhancements is still impressive because she has fought and beat people fast and stronger than her before.

I wouldn't say its THAT ridiculous of a notion considering that he was using his ability in the scans I saw when he fought cap and wolverine, and cap actually ended up beating him. Even though cap and BP have similar or better agility he was still dodging all of cap's moves with his agility so he clearly uses it a lot.

The iron fist scans did impress me though. I have to give him credit there. But not for losing to cap after dodging all of his moves.

#31 Posted by nickzambuto (17769 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayc1324 said:

@nickzambuto: You're right, it does play a role in a fight. But I was questioning just their fighting skills, not who can use their physical abilities better. @jashro44: I know, i have seen the comic, but it still takes skill to beat Shiva. I didn't say he didn't survive them with skill but from what I saw he was flipping around and doing all kinds of crazy moves. So I was just questioning how much or those fights were survived because of his agility. I know they are superior physically but he seems to use it more.

There's a difference between the superhuman agility of someone like Spider-Man, and actual trained acrobatics of someone like Daredevil. The maneuvers Matt pulls are a testament to his martial arts ability and an important part of his fighting style.

Skill and technique aren't interchangeable terms. In all around skill, Daredevil's radar sense, agility, reflexes, knowledge, and experience all combine to make him superior to Tim Drake. If you want to talk sheer absolute knowledge though... Daredevil is still superior, by a very wide margin (IMHO). Tim knows the Leopard Blow, but it's not like Murdock doesn't know an assortment of different moves that could kill someone in one blow. He brought down a Thor villain using pressure points for crying out loud. Tim has versatility with his stick fighting abilities, but Daredevil's main weapon is his billy club, and some of the feats he's pulled with that thing are just ridiculous.

When it comes to training, experience, technical knowledge, and on-panel showings, Daredevil is better.

#32 Edited by nickzambuto (17769 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayc1324 said:

@wolverine08: because Shiva is a too DC fighter and it takes skill to be able to beat her. And beating Shiva and with enhancements is still impressive because she has fought and beat people fast and stronger than her before.

I wouldn't say its THAT ridiculous of a notion considering that he was using his ability in the scans I saw when he fought cap and wolverine, and cap actually ended up beating him. Even though cap and BP have similar or better agility he was still dodging all of cap's moves with his agility so he clearly uses it a lot.

The iron fist scans did impress me though. I have to give him credit there. But not for losing to cap after dodging all of his moves.

Que? Daredevil did not lose to Captain America, you might be remembering wrong.

#33 Edited by Jayc1324 (16525 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: I look at it more as dardevik cleverly incorporating his acrobatics into his martial arts. I get what you're saying about skill and technique, but tim was trained batman and lady Shiva who both know more than daredevil. Tim drake's fighting skills is the only thing that would give him some type of chance in the fight.

#34 Edited by nickzambuto (17769 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayc1324 said:

@nickzambuto: I look at it more as dardevik cleverly incorporating his acrobatics into his martial arts. I get what you're saying about skill and technique, but tim was trained batman and lady Shiva who both know more than daredevil. Tim drake's fighting skills is the only thing that would give him some type of chance in the fight.

Ah, but Daredevil was trained by Stick, who IIRC is actually quite a bit above even the super high tiers like Shiva and Iron Fist.

#35 Posted by Jayc1324 (16525 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: I'm on my phone so I can't post the scans myself (though I could post a link if you really want me to) but cap punches matt to the ground and tells matt to stay down, which he does.

#36 Posted by nickzambuto (17769 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayc1324 said:

@nickzambuto: I'm on my phone so I can't post the scans myself (though I could post a link if you really want me to) but cap punches matt to the ground and tells matt to stay down, which he does.

We must be thinking of totally different fights. During their recent fight under Mark Waid, Daredevil literally dodged every single attack Cap threw out and then convinced him to stop fighting.

#37 Posted by Jayc1324 (16525 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Eh I don't know about that. Possibly. But that's a whole other debate that I don't feel like getting into. But I do still think tim can hang with daredevil in terms of martial arts knowledge and techniques, because the feat of taking on 20 ninjas still holds up, though he loses this fight.

#38 Posted by Wolverine08 (47859 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayc1324:

because Shiva is a too DC fighter and it takes skill to be able to beat her. And beating Shiva and with enhancements is still impressive because she has fought and beat people fast and stronger than her before.

Beating someone when they are distracted is not impressive in any shape way or form. Any Joe Blow could knock out Mike Tyson when he wasn't looking at them. Are you going to try make case for them being capable of being the heavyweight champion of the world. It was fairly obvious that Shiva had gotten overwhelmed by Tim Drake's speed in that fight, and guess what? He had just juiced up on a speed enhancing drug. He needed the physical edge to beat here. That is not skill in the slightest.

I wouldn't say its THAT ridiculous of a notion considering that he was using his ability in the scans I saw when he fought cap and wolverine, and cap actually ended up beating him. Even though cap and BP have similar or better agility he was still dodging all of cap's moves with his agility so he clearly uses it a lot.

The iron fist scans did impress me though. I have to give him credit there. But not for losing to cap after dodging all of his moves.

All fighters take advantage of their physical attributes throughout fights. Daredevil really isn't anymore agile than Black Panther and Captain America, but he just tends to use hi agility to more. And what are you talking about? Daredevil didn't lose to Captain America recently in Daredevil #2. He stalemated him, and arguably had the upperhand throughout the engagement. Steve was dodging Matt's attacks as well and had brought anti Radar Sense chaffs to mess up his Radar Sense(Which plays a role in his agility), so that debunks the agility argument any how.

#39 Posted by Wolverine08 (47859 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayc1324: Dude, Matt stalemated Steve most recently in Daredevil #2.....

#40 Posted by Jayc1324 (16525 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08: Shiva was focuses on tim the entire time. Yes she was distracted but its not like he surprise attacked her or anything. And I don't like the mike Tyson comparison since he isn't on the level of comic characters.

Yes all fighter take advantage of physicals, but I was questions daredevils martial arts knowledge. As in how many martial arts he knows and how well can he use them. Anyone can use their strength and speed to beat a better fighter, i know that. I was questioning his knowledge and skill though.

As for the agility argument, its not completely debunked. I see that he doesn't use it all the time and he is incredibly skilled but it is true that he still uses it to win some fights. And I'm on my phone so I can't post scans but in this comic cap beat daredevil. It wasn't anything recent though.

#41 Posted by Experio (18205 posts) - - Show Bio

Daredevil.

#42 Posted by Jayc1324 (16525 posts) - - Show Bio
#43 Posted by Wolverine08 (47859 posts) - - Show Bio
@jayc1324 said:

@nickzambuto: I'm on my phone so I can't post the scans myself (though I could post a link if you really want me to) but cap punches matt to the ground and tells matt to stay down, which he does.

Why are you referencing Steve and Matt's Streets of Poison where Steve was bloodlusted out of his mind on drugs, and Matt was somewhat rusty from being out of superheroing for a while ?........

#44 Posted by Jayc1324 (16525 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08: The editor of the comic in the scans references daredevil #283 so this series must've come out around then. I don't know if its the same one you're referring to, so I tell you that so you can figure out if it is and let me know.

#45 Posted by Wolverine08 (47859 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayc1324: Yes, that's the comic I am referring to. You forgot an extreme amount of context around the fight.......

#46 Posted by Wolverine08 (47859 posts) - - Show Bio

@dagmar_merrill: Here are the opening parts of the fight.

There are a few more pages that I haven't scanned though. I suggest you read Daredevil #52 for the full fight.

#47 Edited by Erkan12 (3218 posts) - - Show Bio

Daredevil.

#48 Posted by TBEMrMcCoy (1239 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: as a longtime fan of both, this is truth.but I do say DD slightly outclasses Tim Drake.

#49 Edited by Jayc1324 (16525 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08: I was just looking at scans I didn't actually read the comic so I had no context sorry.

#50 Posted by Wolverine08 (47859 posts) - - Show Bio