DareDevil vs Captain America

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Mackeja

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#301  Edited By Mackeja
@Vance Astro:
I think that his evidence just made a compelling argument for what he said. Obviously you can only get direct evidence for a fight matchup, by looking at the fight itself, which was inconclusive for reasons external to the thread. The Combat experience feat of beating four Super Soldiers without all his typical physical capabilities is a HUGE skill feat. I'm not up-to-date on Cap enough to verify this claim, but unless you're challenging the claims vailidity, you're the one in the feat-hole here. I haven't seen a DD feat which impresses me more than this with regards to skill.
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vance_astro

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#302  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator
@Mackeja said:

" @Vance Astro: I think that his evidence just made a compelling argument for what he said. Obviously you can only get direct evidence for a fight matchup, by looking at the fight itself, which was inconclusive for reasons external to the thread. The Combat experience feat of beating four Super Soldiers without all his typical physical capabilities is a HUGE skill feat. I'm not up-to-date on Cap enough to verify this claim, but unless you're challenging the claims vailidity, you're the one in the feat-hole here. I haven't seen a DD feat which impresses me more than this with regards to skill. "

Who's evidence? There was no evidence posted.If you say that Captain America is better than Daredevil and that's your argument..you have to prove it.;You have to post some feats that DD couldn't or hasn't duplicated or done something on the same level.What YOU'VE seen has nothing to do with facts and evidence.
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Mackeja

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#303  Edited By Mackeja
@Vance Astro:
There is no reason that one of us is more obligated to find scans than the other. You're arguing that DD equals cap, and I'm arguing that he doesn't. We both have arguments here, niether of them is supported by hard evidence. I'm too lazy to go scan hunting unless somebody else does it first, so untill then, its a matter of feats, which are admittedly a bit questionable without scans, but instead of giving them, you've been trying to argue that you don't have to give them to support your argument here.
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vance_astro

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#304  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator
@Mackeja said:
" @Vance Astro: There is no reason that one of us is more obligated to find scans than the other. You're arguing that DD equals cap, and I'm arguing that he doesn't. We both have arguments here, niether of them is supported by hard evidence. I'm too lazy to go scan hunting unless somebody else does it first, so untill then, its a matter of feats, which are admittedly a bit questionable without scans, but instead of giving them, you've been trying to argue that you don't have to give them to support your argument here. "
I didn't ask for scans.I asked for proof.I'm not arguing that Daredevil is Cap's equal that's what I believe.I asked The Messenger to prove that Cap is better since that was his argument.I made my argument pages ago.I wasn't using my argument to counter his.I asked for proof of his claims.Unless you are the Messenger I don't see what your problem is.Nobody asked YOU to go scan hunting for anything...because i'm not asking YOU for proof.Not that I asked for scans in the first place.You can make a case without scans.
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#305  Edited By Erik

They are equal overall.  
 
Daredevil and Rogers each have stats that individually are better than the other but when you count each one as a whole against the other, they are pretty equal.  

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#306  Edited By Mackeja
@Alexander Hillcrest said:
" @spidey 15 said:
I never said that cap would throw the shield. Cap already knows about DD's abilities IIRC so he should know that this is a wrong tactic. 
I was talking about punching him with the shield. Cap has already done that and the only reason that  DD was not even slow down by that is bad writing, IMO. 
=] 
I know you didn't.I'm saying in order for Cap to kill Daredevil with his shield he would either have to swing it his hardest or throw it.Neither of which are going to work out for him. 
I know you were talking about punching with the shield but even when punching he still has to swing his arms.Jabbing is preferable against Daredevil because that gives him less time to counter or dodge.  
 
@CaptainRodgers said:
" @Goldfinch: by "these" do you mean the characters or my points.  i disagree , i'd say Cap is the superior martial artist, it's always been that way . He's also stronger ,faster and has greater stamina , DD is his equal in terms of agility , both being peak human.  Cap has far ,far more combat experience than DD. His sheild i've thus far gone without mentioning but it is still a deadly weapon.  I really don't see where Cap faulters here, DD's sonar and superior senses perhaps but other than that i think Cap is the winner , by about 6/10 maybe 7/10 if it's a long fight , we both agree it wouldn't be easy for either so as the fight goes on DD will tire alot quicker than  Cap , giving him a better chance every minute the fight continues. "
Cap's stamina and combat experience are two things that will help him none against Daredevil. "

I have to disagre with the last statement there. Combat experience and Stamina might well be deciding factors here. I agree that DD's slight edge in agility is probably enough to cancel out Cap's considerable strength advantage, but my feeling is that an agility edge alone is not enough to counter all of the stats where Cap exceeds him.
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vance_astro

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#307  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator
@Mackeja said:
I have to disagre with the last statement there. Combat experience and Stamina might well be deciding factors here. I agree that DD's slight edge in agility is probably enough to cancel out Cap's considerable strength advantage, but my feeling is that an agility edge alone is not enough to counter all of the stats where Cap exceeds him. "
When has Cap's Combat experience ever helped him against anyone who wasn't a rookie? When has stamina ever helped him against another costumed hero or villain? 
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daredevil21134

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#308  Edited By daredevil21134
@erik said:
"They are equal overall.   Daredevil and Rogers each have stats that individually are better than the other but when you count each one as a whole against the other, they are pretty equal.   "

agreed
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Mackeja

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#309  Edited By Mackeja

@Vance Astro said:

" @Mackeja said:
I have to disagre with the last statement there. Combat experience and Stamina might well be deciding factors here. I agree that DD's slight edge in agility is probably enough to cancel out Cap's considerable strength advantage, but my feeling is that an agility edge alone is not enough to counter all of the stats where Cap exceeds him. "
When has Cap's Combat experience ever helped him against anyone who wasn't a rookie? When has stamina ever helped him against another costumed hero or villain?  "


 

This is like asking me, "when has a black belt's combat experience ever helped him against anyone who wasn't a white belt?" His combat experience is a major factor regardless of who he fights, and is what allows him to take on opponents with better stats and win. As for stamina, it becomes a factor only when the fight is extended, which, admittedly is not terribly common when Cap gets involved in a fight. Against Daredevil, however, the fight is likely to take a while, at which point Cap's stamina would start to give him the edge.
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vance_astro

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#310  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator
@Mackeja said:
This is like asking me, "when has a black belt's combat experience ever helped him against anyone who wasn't a white belt?" His combat experience is a major factor regardless of who he fights, and is what allows him to take on opponents with better stats and win. As for stamina, it becomes a factor only when the fight is extended, which, admittedly is not terribly common when Cap gets involved in a fight. Against Daredevil, however, the fight is likely to take a while, at which point Cap's stamina would start to give him the edge. "
If Cap's experience or stamina has never done anything for him in comics..how do you know it would here?  
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Mackeja

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#311  Edited By Mackeja

I never suggested anything of the sort. I suggested that Stamina is one of Cap's stats which is featured less often, not that it "has never done anything for him in the comics." Nor did I even begin to suggest that his combat experience does not help him in the comics.

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vance_astro

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#312  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator
@Mackeja said:
"

I never suggested anything of the sort. I suggested that Stamina is one of Cap's stats which is featured less often, not that it "has never done anything for him in the comics." Nor did I even begin to suggest that his combat experience does not help him in the comics.

"
You said that Combat Experience and Stamina might well be deciding factors? Did you not? I quoted the post..It was in response to someone saying that those things will help him none in this fight and you disagreed.So I asked you, if you've never seen those things help Captain America in any fight that he's been in..then how do you know it will help him here? What did I miss? 
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ThaMessenger07

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#313  Edited By ThaMessenger07
@Vance Astro:  I never claimed that he was Better a fighter then DD just Superior Physically. I claimed that recently Cap himself has shown that he is better in h2h. Re-read my statement. 
 
@ThaMessenger07 said:

" I say Cap wins. Recently he has shown much better H2H skill not that he hasn't in the past but now he must rely on it more without his shield. He is physically superior and even DD has mentioned that he can't quite keep up when he was chasing Cap. He also said hes sloppy lol. "


I did not insinuate better then DD just better* Better then usual. He has no shield and he has had some really good combat feats recently.
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#314  Edited By Static Shock

Captain America.

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#315  Edited By Mackeja
@Vance Astro said:
" @Mackeja said:
"

I never suggested anything of the sort. I suggested that Stamina is one of Cap's stats which is featured less often, not that it "has never done anything for him in the comics." Nor did I even begin to suggest that his combat experience does not help him in the comics.

"
You said that Combat Experience and Stamina might well be deciding factors? Did you not? I quoted the post..It was in response to someone saying that those things will help him none in this fight and you disagreed.So I asked you, if you've never seen those things help Captain America in any fight that he's been in..then how do you know it will help him here? What did I miss?  "

I'm not saying that I've never seen these things help Cap in a fight....I'm saying that I've only seen stamina help him on occcasion, and that his combat experience apppears to help him in almost every fight he partakes in. Knowing that these things can help him in a fight, I feel that they could be deteriming factors agains DD 
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#316  Edited By Grand Marvelous
@erik said:
" They are equal overall.   Daredevil and Rogers each have stats that individually are better than the other but when you count each one as a whole against the other, they are pretty equal.   "

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#317  Edited By Goldfinch
@Mackeja said:

" @Vance Astro said:

" @Mackeja said:
"

I never suggested anything of the sort. I suggested that Stamina is one of Cap's stats which is featured less often, not that it "has never done anything for him in the comics." Nor did I even begin to suggest that his combat experience does not help him in the comics.

"
You said that Combat Experience and Stamina might well be deciding factors? Did you not? I quoted the post..It was in response to someone saying that those things will help him none in this fight and you disagreed.So I asked you, if you've never seen those things help Captain America in any fight that he's been in..then how do you know it will help him here? What did I miss?  "
I'm not saying that I've never seen these things help Cap in a fight....I'm saying that I've only seen stamina help him on occcasion, and that his combat experience apppears to help him in almost every fight he partakes in. Knowing that these things can help him in a fight, I feel that they could be deteriming factors agains DD  "
And yet Cap's stamina and combat experience has never helped him to beat DD in any of their fights fair and square. 
Cap has never proven to be better than DD in their fights but he's also never done it away from their fights either. They've fought the same opponents with virtually the same result accept DD actually beat Taskmaster twice, Cap hasn't and Cap has had more encounters with Taskmaster. And Mantis, after all, beat Cap. 
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Goldfinch

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#318  Edited By Goldfinch
@erik said:
" They are equal overall.   Daredevil and Rogers each have stats that individually are better than the other but when you count each one as a whole against the other, they are pretty equal.   "
You mean like Cap's superior strength and other abilities are compensated by DD's superhuman senses? 
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#319  Edited By Erik
@Goldfinch said:
" @erik said:
" They are equal overall.   Daredevil and Rogers each have stats that individually are better than the other but when you count each one as a whole against the other, they are pretty equal.   "
You mean like Cap's superior strength and other abilities are compensated by DD's superhuman senses?  "
Yes. 
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spidey 15

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#320  Edited By spidey 15
@erik said:
" They are equal overall.   Daredevil and Rogers each have stats that individually are better than the other but when you count each one as a whole against the other, they are pretty equal.   "
This. That's why i believe that shield would make the difference. 
=]
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Glabal500

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#321  Edited By Glabal500

cap stomps

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#322  Edited By everymoss09
there's no way today's writers would let cap america get beaten by daredevil. 
why? because it's UNAMERICAN! hahha they will be always and forever be biased towards cap. 
plus, chalk it up on inconsistent writing, the why i look at it, dd has far more impressive physical feats, he's athletic ability is on-par with 
spidey, he has mystical ninja training ( which you cant say about your cap america) and he has one-shot-to-the-nerve thing going on. 
he's fought  and did well against the best of them. 
but there is no way today's writers would let cap loose to a non super powered. (not counting super senses) 
BUT, if they pitt captain britain vs dd? or any other metahuman? they will find a way for dd to win cleanly. 
im a dd fan, but unless there's a writer out there who's not afraid to shatter STATUS QUO, cap will always win in the end. 
even though taking a non biased look at it,  i'd say dd will win, but it will be a close match
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#323  Edited By Goldfinch
@Mackeja said:
@Vance Astro: I think that his evidence just made a compelling argument for what he said. Obviously you can only get direct evidence for a fight matchup, by looking at the fight itself, which was inconclusive for reasons external to the thread. The Combat experience feat of beating four Super Soldiers without all his typical physical capabilities is a HUGE skill feat. I'm not up-to-date on Cap enough to verify this claim, but unless you're challenging the claims vailidity, you're the one in the feat-hole here. I haven't seen a DD feat which impresses me more than this with regards to skill.
 
DD also beat super-soldiers like Nuke and US Agent as well.  Like DD and will fight 5/10 under fair and normal conditions. 
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#324  Edited By tg1982

@everymoss09 said:

there's no way today's writers would let cap america get beaten by daredevil. 
why? because it's UNAMERICAN! hahha they will be always and forever be biased towards cap. 
plus, chalk it up on inconsistent writing, the why i look at it, dd has far more impressive physical feats, he's athletic ability is on-par with 
spidey, he has mystical ninja training ( which you cant say about your cap america) and he has one-shot-to-the-nerve thing going on. 
he's fought  and did well against the best of them. 
but there is no way today's writers would let cap loose to a non super powered. (not counting super senses) 
BUT, if they pitt captain britain vs dd? or any other metahuman? they will find a way for dd to win cleanly. 
im a dd fan, but unless there's a writer out there who's not afraid to shatter STATUS QUO, cap will always win in the end. 
even though taking a non biased look at it,  i'd say dd will win, but it will be a close match


 

 
Really? DD has more impressive physical feats? Like what?
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EpitomeofCool

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#325  Edited By EpitomeofCool

captain america ftw here...

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tg1982

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#326  Edited By tg1982
@EpitomeofCool
 
Agreed 
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#327  Edited By Goldfinch
@spidey 15 said:
@Alexander Hillcrest: Actually this is true. Maybe cap will fail to tag him if he tries to kill him with the first shot, but then he might try to slow him down and then kill him. He won't need to swing it very hard if it's just a simple hit and cap has already tagged him with the shield anyway. So, IMO Cap still wins with morals off. =]
 
The fact is in that fight DD was holding back. 
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#328  Edited By tg1982

The fact is everytime they fought that I'm aware there was always some circumstance that holds it from being legit. So these examples are kinda moot, IMHO.  
 
I think Cap takes the majority 7/10 due to his superior physicality, and equal fighting ability.
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#329  Edited By Cochise

-Cap and Daredevil are both superheroes, so every time they fight it will be under unusual circumstances. They will never have a straight-up fight. That doesn't mean one can't draw inferences from their fights, as long as other sources are consdiered as well.
-In every one of these fights, Cap has looked superior.
-DD has flat-out stated that Cap is stronger and faster than him. Not in a hyperbole, "He's as fast as a bolt of lightning!" sense, but as a simple observation.
-It's crazy to say Marvel won't "let" Cap lose and that's the only reason he's come out on top over DD... That's not an argument, Cap is consistently written as being that good.
 
Anyway, Cap for the majority. Looks like they'll be fighting in Daredevil #2.

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tg1982

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#330  Edited By tg1982
@Cochise
I agree 100%.
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#331  Edited By CapFanboy

*Bump* 
  
**SPOILERS** 
Thought I'd add this from daredevil #2 
 
 

No Caption Provided
 
 
No Caption Provided
 
No Caption Provided
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 I'll post the other two images later
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#332  Edited By jeanroygrant

Captain America

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#333  Edited By Strider1992

Leaning towards DD here he managed to hold his own against a blood-lusted Spider-man(The Death Of Jean DeWolfe arc). I think he stands a very good chance of winning.

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vance_astro

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#334  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator

Captain America 5/10.

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#335  Edited By darktiger

Cap better fighter plus shield daredevil can't attack him.

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Enosisik

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#336  Edited By Enosisik

 lmao.. Either one on any given day.

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BringnIt

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#337  Edited By BringnIt

Cap 7/10.

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#338  Edited By Bobsjonjon

Cap of course!

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#339  Edited By daak1212

@Vance Astro said:

Captain America 5/10.

....Why not say tie?

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#340  Edited By bump1010

@darktiger said:

Cap better fighter plus shield daredevil can't attack him.

@BringnIt said:

Cap 7/10.

@Bobsjonjon said:

Cap of course!

Why?

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vance_astro

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#341  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator
@daak1212 said:

@Vance Astro said:

Captain America 5/10.

....Why not say tie?

Because it's me...
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#342  Edited By Linkin_Park

ca

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#343  Edited By BringnIt

@Bump1010 Stronger, faster, more durable and at least as skilled. Better equipment, also. Matt has reflexes as good and is better at avoidance overall due to superior agility feats and his enhanced senses, and it's really close, but I'll take Cap more often than not.

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#344  Edited By Goldfinch

@BringnIt said:

@Bump1010 Stronger, faster, more durable and at least as skilled. Better equipment, also. Matt has reflexes as good and is better at avoidance overall due to superior agility feats and his enhanced senses, and it's really close, but I'll take Cap more often than not.

Either Cap or Daredevil can win at any day, 5/10 each at best.

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vance_astro

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#345  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator
@Goldfinch said:

@BringnIt said:

@Bump1010 Stronger, faster, more durable and at least as skilled. Better equipment, also. Matt has reflexes as good and is better at avoidance overall due to superior agility feats and his enhanced senses, and it's really close, but I'll take Cap more often than not.

Either Cap or Daredevil can win at any day, 5/10 each at best.

Agreed.
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Bane_of_sith

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#346  Edited By Bane_of_sith

DD 6/10

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#347  Edited By Goldfinch

@Vance Astro said:

@Goldfinch said:

@BringnIt said:

@Bump1010 Stronger, faster, more durable and at least as skilled. Better equipment, also. Matt has reflexes as good and is better at avoidance overall due to superior agility feats and his enhanced senses, and it's really close, but I'll take Cap more often than not.

Either Cap or Daredevil can win at any day, 5/10 each at best.

Agreed.

Vance and others defend DD here:

Here is the thread Cap vs. DD currently on comicbattle message board:

http://www.comicboards.com/php/show.php?msg=comicbattles-2012091916414894&layout=thread

Everyone here say Cap beats DD, more often than not and they say that Cap is more skilled than DD!

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#348  Edited By Goldfinch

@Bane_of_sith said:

DD 6/10

Bane defend DD here:

Here is the thread Cap vs. DD currently on comicbattle message board:

http://www.comicboards.com/php/show.php?msg=comicbattles-2012091916414894&layout=thread

Everyone here say Cap beats DD, more often than not and they say that Cap is more skilled than DD!

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#349  Edited By slimj87d

@Vance Astro: How would you score it pure H2H, both do not have their standard equipment. Blood lusted and not blood lusted? In a octagon.

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#350  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator
@SlimJ87D said:

@Vance Astro: How would you score it pure H2H, both do not have their standard equipment. Blood lusted and not blood lusted? In a octagon.

I think it would still be the same 5\10. I don't think DD's equipment adds much. It takes away a bit of Cap's defense but I believe he uses that shield as a crutch most times and he's actually just as good at evading and blocking without it.