#51 Posted by Vance Astro (91220 posts) - - Show Bio
@daredevil21134 said:
" @Vance Astro said:
" @daredevil21134 said:
" I don't see any writer allowing DD to beat Cap "
Frank Miller did it already.Not only did DD beat Cap but the rest of the Avengers as well. "
everyone calls it pis....so i wasn't counting it "
I wasn't making the point that it was realistic but that it happened.
Moderator
#52 Posted by daredevil21134 (11726 posts) - - Show Bio
@Vance Astro said:
" @daredevil21134 said:
" @Vance Astro said:
" @daredevil21134 said:
" I don't see any writer allowing DD to beat Cap "
Frank Miller did it already.Not only did DD beat Cap but the rest of the Avengers as well. "
everyone calls it pis....so i wasn't counting it "
I wasn't making the point that it was realistic but that it happened. "

When I made that comment I was talking about a legit fight
#53 Edited by Donovan Montgomery (5435 posts) - - Show Bio
@Goldfinch:
Sorry to tell you this, but Cap has beaten DD while he (Cap) was brainwashed and probably not even fighting at his best.  Personally, I would love to say DD wins but not against Cap. (Steve) 
 
P.S.  re-read your post and I am refering to the second battle you mentioned, it was not a stalemate, Cap had DD beat.
#54 Posted by Vance Astro (91220 posts) - - Show Bio
@daredevil21134 said:
When I made that comment I was talking about a legit fight "
Cap has never beaten DD in a legit fight either.They're even as far as i'm concerned.
Moderator
#55 Posted by Vance Astro (91220 posts) - - Show Bio
@Donovan Montgomery said:
" @Goldfinch: Sorry to tell you this, but Cap has beaten DD while he (Cap) was brainwashed and probably not even fighting at his best.  Personally, I would love to say DD wins but not against Cap. (Steve)  P.S.  re-read your post and I am refering to the second battle you mentioned, it was not a stalemate, Cap had DD beat. "
If you're talking about the team up against Death-Stalker.Cap wasn't brainwashed DD was.
Moderator
#56 Posted by spidey 15 (17756 posts) - - Show Bio
@Vance Astro: I think he is talking about the streets of poison arc. 
=]
#57 Posted by Donovan Montgomery (5435 posts) - - Show Bio
@spidey 15:
@Vance Astro:

What Spidey 15 said.  I believe that was what this issue was called.
        
#58 Posted by spidey 15 (17756 posts) - - Show Bio
@Donovan Montgomery: Actually i was talking about this one. 
 =] 
 

#59 Posted by untammed (442 posts) - - Show Bio

csp

#60 Posted by daredevil21134 (11726 posts) - - Show Bio
@Vance Astro said:
" @daredevil21134 said:
When I made that comment I was talking about a legit fight "
Cap has never beaten DD in a legit fight either.They're even as far as i'm concerned. "

I agree....but if I had to pick a winner it would be DD
#61 Posted by Vance Astro (91220 posts) - - Show Bio

In the fight in Streets of Poison..Cap was bloodlusted.If you read the dialogue it clearly insists that Daredevil isn't trying to actually fight Cap.DD also says that "He's really off his game and can't seem to gear himself to do what it takes to bring Cap down".

Moderator
#62 Posted by spidey 15 (17756 posts) - - Show Bio
@Vance Astro said:
" In the fight in Streets of Poison..Cap was bloodlusted.If you read the dialogue it clearly insists that Daredevil isn't trying to actually fight Cap.DD also says that "He's really off his game and can't seem to gear himself to do what it takes to bring Cap down". "
Yeah, we know. But Cap was not bloodlsuted. Or else DD would be dead. 
=]
#63 Edited by Donovan Montgomery (5435 posts) - - Show Bio
@Vance Astro: 
Dosn't really matter cause DD knows he can't beat Cap, he's pretty much said it a few times........If you really need me to dig thru my collection to find/scan/post these, you'll have to wait till I can get to them again. 
 *pretty much = not in those exact words*
@spidey 15:
*sigh*  That's what I get for speaking after I put the comic away and can't get to it again right away  :^/ 
 
by the by I have not read the Streets of Poison storyline.
#64 Posted by Vance Astro (91220 posts) - - Show Bio
@spidey 15 said:
" @Vance Astro said:
" In the fight in Streets of Poison..Cap was bloodlusted.If you read the dialogue it clearly insists that Daredevil isn't trying to actually fight Cap.DD also says that "He's really off his game and can't seem to gear himself to do what it takes to bring Cap down". "
Yeah, we know. But Cap was not bloodlsuted. Or else DD would be dead. =] "
He may not have been bloodlusted but he was angry and actually trying to hurt DD.
Moderator
#65 Posted by Deadcool (6810 posts) - - Show Bio
@Nobody said:
" Lunacyde said:
"

I am sure this has been done b4

"
I think so too, but I'm too lazy to look.Anyways, I think Daredevil could give Captain America a good run. But in the end Captain America will win. "
...
...
#66 Posted by spidey 15 (17756 posts) - - Show Bio

Actually i have a theory that Cap without SSS should be equal to DD. I came up with that theory after a debate i had with K4tz. 
 
DD after his fight with Cap he fought Crossbones. In that fight, DD lost and pretty fast actually. Of course DD was not at his best due to the beating he had from Cap but Crossbones was mostly focused on Kingpin instead of fight DD. Yet DD still lost. IMO, under normal conditions where DD should be fully recovered, if he fought Crossbones, the fight could go either way. 
 
When cap didn't have his SSS and his shield was taken away, he was still able to beat Cross. 
That IMO, shows that a depowered cap without his weapon, should be on a similar level with DD. 
 
But normal cap, should be superior IMO. 
=]

#67 Posted by spidey 15 (17756 posts) - - Show Bio
@Vance Astro said:
" @spidey 15 said:
" @Vance Astro said:
" In the fight in Streets of Poison..Cap was bloodlusted.If you read the dialogue it clearly insists that Daredevil isn't trying to actually fight Cap.DD also says that "He's really off his game and can't seem to gear himself to do what it takes to bring Cap down". "
Yeah, we know. But Cap was not bloodlsuted. Or else DD would be dead. =] "
He may not have been bloodlusted but he was angry and actually trying to hurt DD. "
True. 
=]
#68 Edited by symbiote5 (2181 posts) - - Show Bio

 Not to mention, Matt has a great disadvantage fighting against Cap. He can't read his moves, due to the Super Soldier Serum, so he doesn't know when or where Cap is going to throw a punch until he throws it.

but thats not completely true There was one instance when DD couldn't read Cap's heart. But DD has other ways to read an opponent. And unless I'm mistaken, DD was quite tired at the time. Though, it wasn't mentioned as the reason he had trouble reading Cap.

In another instance, DD could read Cap just fine.

The two have fought multiple times.

One was a nearly issue long classic fight in DD's fight. Cap was even using his shield while DD was unarmed and it was a stalemate.

The next fight was in DD's title again. DD turns off the lights at Avengers Mansion and engages the Avengers (Cap, Hercules, Beast, Black Widow). He casually defeats most of them including Cap. And that's while DD was weakened and delirious.

And there was another fight where Cap was off the deep end and became bad. DD engaged him in a warehouse and Cap seemed to get the better of DD. Though, it should be noted that Cap was basically "bad" so not holding back, while DD obviously was.

And there's the Streets of Poison fight where Cap (mentally unstable, agressive, not holding back, but not in top shape) beats down DD (who was seriously weakened and just went through hell, literally).

Also, DD defeated Infomorph, a being who had absorbed DD's and Cap's skills, possibly among others. Though, that's not representative at all IMHO.

Not a bad track record for DD, I'd say (I'm not too sure, but IIRC, in the first fight I mentioned, DD himself was somewhat mentally unstable).

Still, Cap takes the majority IMHO. Physically superior, has a shield and a better fighter, even if not by much.

#69 Posted by The_Martian (36984 posts) - - Show Bio
@Deadcool:  That post is over two years old.
#70 Posted by symbiote5 (2181 posts) - - Show Bio
@Nobody said:
" @Deadcool:  That post is over two years old. "
lmao
#71 Posted by spidey 15 (17756 posts) - - Show Bio
@Vance Astro: What do you think of my theory? 
=]
#72 Posted by spidey 15 (17756 posts) - - Show Bio
@Nobody said:
" @Deadcool:  That post is over two years old. "
You are so old... 
 
:p
#73 Posted by The_Martian (36984 posts) - - Show Bio
@spidey 15 said:
" @Nobody said:
" @Deadcool:  That post is over two years old. "
You are so old...  :p "
That was waaaaay back. Back before you youngsters had your fancy search function. We had to scroll through fifteen pages of battles to find the one we were looking for! XP
#74 Posted by Vance Astro (91220 posts) - - Show Bio
@spidey 15 said:
" Actually i have a theory that Cap without SSS should be equal to DD. I came up with that theory after a debate i had with K4tz.  DD after his fight with Cap he fought Crossbones. In that fight, DD lost and pretty fast actually. Of course DD was not at his best due to the beating he had from Cap but Crossbones was mostly focused on Kingpin instead of fight DD. Yet DD still lost. IMO, under normal conditions where DD should be fully recovered, if he fought Crossbones, the fight could go either way.  When cap didn't have his SSS and his shield was taken away, he was still able to beat Cross. That IMO, shows that a depowered cap without his weapon, should be on a similar level with DD.  But normal cap, should be superior IMO. =] "
Daredevil didn't lose to Cap or Crossbones honestly.He faked being KO'd both times.
Moderator
#75 Posted by spidey 15 (17756 posts) - - Show Bio
@Nobody said:
" @spidey 15 said:
" @Nobody said:
" @Deadcool:  That post is over two years old. "
You are so old...  :p "
That was waaaaay back. Back before you youngsters had your fancy search function. We had to scroll through fifteen pages of battles to find the one we were looking for! XP "
ROFL.....XD 
 
I guess at the time you could not blame someone for making a dupe thread because he did not use the search function....XP
#76 Posted by The_Martian (36984 posts) - - Show Bio
@spidey 15 said:
" @Nobody said:
" @spidey 15 said:
" @Nobody said:
" @Deadcool:  That post is over two years old. "
You are so old...  :p "
That was waaaaay back. Back before you youngsters had your fancy search function. We had to scroll through fifteen pages of battles to find the one we were looking for! XP "
ROFL.....XD  I guess at the time you could not blame someone for making a dupe thread because he did not use the search function....XP "
Yet there were less dupes back in those days... >_>
#77 Posted by spidey 15 (17756 posts) - - Show Bio
@Vance Astro said:
" @spidey 15 said:
" Actually i have a theory that Cap without SSS should be equal to DD. I came up with that theory after a debate i had with K4tz.  DD after his fight with Cap he fought Crossbones. In that fight, DD lost and pretty fast actually. Of course DD was not at his best due to the beating he had from Cap but Crossbones was mostly focused on Kingpin instead of fight DD. Yet DD still lost. IMO, under normal conditions where DD should be fully recovered, if he fought Crossbones, the fight could go either way.  When cap didn't have his SSS and his shield was taken away, he was still able to beat Cross. That IMO, shows that a depowered cap without his weapon, should be on a similar level with DD.  But normal cap, should be superior IMO. =] "
Daredevil didn't lose to Cap or Crossbones honestly.He faked being KO'd both times. "
I don't remember that being stated or shown in Crossbone's fight. Not that it matters because if crossbones was keep fighting back, then DD should obviously be KOed. 
=]
#78 Posted by spidey 15 (17756 posts) - - Show Bio
@Nobody said:
" @spidey 15 said:
" @Nobody said:
" @spidey 15 said:
" @Nobody said:
" @Deadcool:  That post is over two years old. "
You are so old...  :p "
That was waaaaay back. Back before you youngsters had your fancy search function. We had to scroll through fifteen pages of battles to find the one we were looking for! XP "
ROFL.....XD  I guess at the time you could not blame someone for making a dupe thread because he did not use the search function....XP "
Yet there were less dupes back in those days... >_> "
lol
#79 Posted by Vance Astro (91220 posts) - - Show Bio
@spidey 15 said:
I don't remember that being stated or shown in Crossbone's fight. Not that it matters because if crossbones was keep fighting back, then DD should obviously be KOed. =] "
When Crossbones left the room DD was under the table.When he came back in the room seconds later he says " I could have sworn he was unconscious" but DD was gone.Crossbones even calls him a "faker".In an actual fight...DD would beat the hell out of Crossbones.He's nowhere near as skilled as DD.
Moderator
#80 Posted by Deadcool (6810 posts) - - Show Bio
@Nobody:  Oh well...
#81 Posted by MrDirector786 (43548 posts) - - Show Bio
@Nobody said:
" @spidey 15 said:
" @Nobody said:
" @spidey 15 said:
" @Nobody said:
" @Deadcool:  That post is over two years old. "
You are so old...  :p "
That was waaaaay back. Back before you youngsters had your fancy search function. We had to scroll through fifteen pages of battles to find the one we were looking for! XP "
ROFL.....XD  I guess at the time you could not blame someone for making a dupe thread because he did not use the search function....XP "
Yet there were less dupes back in those days... >_> "
lol
#82 Posted by spidey 15 (17756 posts) - - Show Bio
@Vance Astro said:
" @spidey 15 said:
I don't remember that being stated or shown in Crossbone's fight. Not that it matters because if crossbones was keep fighting back, then DD should obviously be KOed. =] "
When Crossbones left the room DD was under the table.When he came back in the room seconds later he says " I could have sworn he was unconscious" but DD was gone.Crossbones even calls him a "faker".In an actual fight...DD would beat the hell out of Crossbones.He's nowhere near as skilled as DD. "
I have checked it, you are right. 
And why Cross is not as skilled or close to DD's level. 
DD was barely in a bad condition and Cross was mostly focused on Fisk. Yet Cross was still able to get the upper hand in that fight. 
And even DD admitted that he lost that fight. Possibly the only reason that he faked being KOed is because he could not keep up. 
As i said under normal conditions it could go either way but saying that DD would beat the hell out of him considering the conditions of their first fight, it seems like exaggeration. 
=]
#83 Edited by Vance Astro (91220 posts) - - Show Bio
@spidey 15 said:

I have checked it, you are right. And why Cross is not as skilled or close to DD's level. DD was barely in a bad condition and Cross was mostly focused on Fisk. Yet Cross was still able to get the upper hand in that fight. And even DD admitted that he lost that fight. Possibly the only reason that he faked being KOed is because he could not keep up. As i said under normal conditions it could go either way but saying that DD would beat the hell out of him considering the conditions of their first fight, it seems like exaggeration. =] "

What ever Crossbones supposedly did to DD in the fight was off panel so I wouldn't know how he got the upper hand..it isn't shown.Daredevil not being able to keep up with Crossbones is a falsehood.DD has proven he can keep up with Cap on more than one occasion and Crossbones has the same exact stats.Skillwise he doesn't have a single feat that makes him comparable to Daredevil.Under normal conditions it shouldn't go either way but be an win for Daredevil.There one and only fight had a false outcome and we don't even know how it got to that point.
Moderator
#84 Posted by spidey 15 (17756 posts) - - Show Bio
@Vance Astro:  
  
They were fighting only these 2. What could possibly happen off panel that would suggest, that Crossbones did not take the edge by himself? 
Indeed, DD has hold his own against cap, but both of us know that under normal conditions and in a well written fight, he has never beaten him, neither vice versa. 
Crossbones is barely inferior to cap, so the most possible outcome is a 50/50. Do you honestly think that if Cross was equal to cap, DD would be able to beat the hell out of him? 
Also, Cross being featless, does not show inferiority. Actually beating DD is a feat. We don't know the level of his skill, so we judge from his fights. If he was able to get the edge over a barely weakened DD while he was focused on other things, it's a feat. It's not PIS, because nothing had happened to prove that. 
=]
#85 Posted by Vance Astro (91220 posts) - - Show Bio
@spidey 15 said:
" @Vance Astro:    They were fighting only these 2. What could possibly happen off panel that would suggest, that Crossbones did not take the edge by himself? Indeed, DD has hold his own against cap, but both of us know that under normal conditions and in a well written fight, he has never beaten him, neither vice versa. Crossbones is barely inferior to cap, so the most possible outcome is a 50/50. Do you honestly think that if Cross was equal to cap, DD would be able to beat the hell out of him? Also, Cross being featless, does not show inferiority. Actually beating DD is a feat. We don't know the level of his skill, so we judge from his fights. If he was able to get the edge over a barely weakened DD while he was focused on other things, it's a feat. It's not PIS, because nothing had happened to prove that. =] "
I'm saying I don't know what happened.I can't speak on it because whatever happened wasn't shown. 
I never said that Daredevil ever beat Cap (he has but I didn't say it), my point was that Cap doesn't have an overwhelming advantage over DD or even one that matters than much so why would this be any different for Crossbones? Crossbones isn't inferior to Cap in any way.They have the same exact same stats.The problem is as far as fighting skill..Crossbones isn't on par with Cap or Daredevil.He's not even close.Daredevil would beat the hell out of him because peak human physical ability isn't enough of an advantage to beat Daredevil when you're not comparable skillwise. 
I never said Crossbones was featless..I said he doesn't have any feats that make him comparable to DD.All you have an old fight where Crossbones DIDN'T win.
Moderator
#86 Posted by spidey 15 (17756 posts) - - Show Bio
@Vance Astro:  
 
The most possible thing that happened is that Cross get the edge by himself. No one else was in the room and Cross was not holding any weapon or something. So, what is the most obvious thing that happened during the fight? 
Actually Cap is superior at skills and physical stats to DD. Cross seems to be equal to DD in these terms. And cross is physically inferior to cap. He is peak while cap is enhanced and cap has better feats as well. 
Anyway, while i believe cap would get a slight majority to DD, cross should win like 5/10. 
And the fight only shows that Cross is match for DD skillwise. Cross has not shown inferiority in something that DD has done in terms of skills, so why he is inferior to him? 
If we have something to base the level of Cross' skill, is that fight. 
=]
#87 Edited by Vance Astro (91220 posts) - - Show Bio
@spidey 15 said:

" @Vance Astro:   The most possible thing that happened is that Cross get the edge by himself. No one else was in the room and Cross was not holding any weapon or something. So, what is the most obvious thing that happened during the fight? Actually Cap is superior at skills and physical stats to DD. Cross seems to be equal to DD in these terms. And cross is physically inferior to cap. He is peak while cap is enhanced and cap has better feats as well. Anyway, while i believe cap would get a slight majority to DD, cross should win like 5/10. And the fight only shows that Cross is match for DD skillwise. Cross has not shown inferiority in something that DD has done in terms of skills, so why he is inferior to him? If we have something to base the level of Cross' skill, is that fight. =] "

I don't get where your post is going anymore. Nobody said that Crossbones was helped or anything.He never beat Daredevil..that's my only point.The upper hand and beating someone are two different things.I didn't say that Cap wasn't physical and skillfully better than Daredevil.I said that Crossbones is only physically above DD and nowhere near as skilled as Cap or Daredevil.Crossbones isn't equal to DD in anyway.Crossbones wouldn't beat anyone 5\10.Daredevil has beaten and stalemated far better fighters than Crossbones.He can't even hang with Bucky...but somehow he's close to Daredevil? He couldn't even beat Bucky with help.How much sense does that make..especially seeing as how he has little to no feats.Since when do we compare Marvel elites to guys who have skills feats against like two characters? Daredevil has far better fighting skill feats.Period.
Moderator
#88 Posted by spidey 15 (17756 posts) - - Show Bio
@Vance Astro: 
 
...... 
I concede, i don't think i can continue.... 
=[
#89 Posted by Vance Astro (91220 posts) - - Show Bio
@spidey 15 said:
" @Vance Astro:  ...... I concede, i don't think i can continue.... =[ "
How dare you concede.I was just about to post a flurry of scans >(
Moderator
#90 Posted by spidey 15 (17756 posts) - - Show Bio
@Vance Astro said:
" @spidey 15 said:
" @Vance Astro:  ...... I concede, i don't think i can continue.... =[ "
How dare you concede.I was just about to post a flurry of scans >( "
LOL, Sorry, but i could not think any argument. You win. 
=]
#91 Posted by Vance Astro (91220 posts) - - Show Bio
@spidey 15 said:
" @Vance Astro said:
" @spidey 15 said:
" @Vance Astro:  ...... I concede, i don't think i can continue.... =[ "
How dare you concede.I was just about to post a flurry of scans >( "
LOL, Sorry, but i could not think any argument. You win. =] "
I was bluffing anyway :)
Moderator
#92 Posted by spidey 15 (17756 posts) - - Show Bio
@Vance Astro said:
" @spidey 15 said:
" @Vance Astro said:
" @spidey 15 said:
" @Vance Astro:  ...... I concede, i don't think i can continue.... =[ "
How dare you concede.I was just about to post a flurry of scans >( "
LOL, Sorry, but i could not think any argument. You win. =] "
I was bluffing anyway :) "
lol
#93 Posted by spidey 15 (17756 posts) - - Show Bio

Cap still wins though...=P

#94 Posted by Vance Astro (91220 posts) - - Show Bio
@spidey 15 said:
" Cap still wins though...=P "
No argument there.
Moderator
#95 Posted by spidey 15 (17756 posts) - - Show Bio
@Vance Astro said:
" @spidey 15 said:
" Cap still wins though...=P "
No argument there. "
:-*
#96 Posted by Goldfinch (235 posts) - - Show Bio
@Vance Astro said:

" @spidey 15 said:

" Cap still wins though...=P "

No argument there. "
 
What makes you think that? 
The most objective answer is that we can't know who would win until writers write their fair fight to the end.  
There is no other option than this-everything else is the subject to fanboyism. 
You said that you think Black Panther is just smarter and more physically dominant than Daredevil.I think they are equally skilled.   
 
Cap beat Black Panther:
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w193/ecq300/cap1.jpg
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w193/ecq300/cap2.jpg

Cap defeated Panther in contest of champions. Just look at Cap's words: "That's enough of that. Over 3 hours. Fury said you were good. But I'm better." So, Cap is better skill-wise than Black Panther. But how do you know he is better than DD?
What do you think? 
To be the best you must beat the best, yes, but also if you're truly the best you must beat ALL the challengers. Cap still didn't beat DD in a fair fight, yet, but he did beat Black Panther sure it took over 3 hours. I wonder how much it would take to defeat DD. And yes, when you look at it. DD KOing Cap in Avengers mansion was indeed bad writing, but also Cap was surprised as well that DD could see him in that dark room. 
Any explanation?
#97 Posted by Morpheus_ (29873 posts) - - Show Bio
@Goldfinch: The fight you referenced is not from the mainstream universe. That's Earth 1610; the Ultimate universe.
Moderator
#98 Posted by spidey 15 (17756 posts) - - Show Bio
@Goldfinch:  
It's not fanboyism to say that cap or DD wins. If you have an opinion, it is based on what you have seen from either character. And Steve Rogers have accomplished better skill feats and better physical feats.  
 
And the scans that you have posted are not from contest of champions. It's from Ultimate universe. You can understand that from cap's costume as well. 
 
=] 
 
@Morpheus_ said:
" @Goldfinch: The fight you referenced is not from the mainstream universe. That's Earth 1610; the Ultimate universe. "
Shhhh....
#99 Posted by Morpheus_ (29873 posts) - - Show Bio
@spidey 15 said:
" @Morpheus_ said:
" @Goldfinch: The fight you referenced is not from the mainstream universe. That's Earth 1610; the Ultimate universe. "
Shhhh.... "
Ur face? :P
Moderator
#100 Posted by spidey 15 (17756 posts) - - Show Bio
@Morpheus_ said:
" @spidey 15 said:
" @Morpheus_ said:
" @Goldfinch: The fight you referenced is not from the mainstream universe. That's Earth 1610; the Ultimate universe. "
Shhhh.... "
Ur face? :P "
lol