Daredevil/Nobu (MCU) vs Batman/Ra's Al Ghul (Nolan)

@dstreet45: I know Matt beat fisk. Fisk still beat him up badly during the fight though. Kind of like how Matt beat Nobu, but still got beaten up badly. Fisk is certainly formidable. But daredevil is a trained ninja, he should not be getting dominated like that. The only time Batman got dominated was when he fought a superhuman who has the exact same training as him and couldn't feel pain, while he had an injured knee and was far out of his prime.

@lukehero: The bullet dodging wasn't actual bullet timing, it's dodging through movement/aim dodging. Anyway why does bullet timing even matter in this fight? It doesn't matter because daredevil's combat speed showings aren't all that impressive. Daredevil has repeatedly been tagged by fodder (episode 1, the traffickers and the guy in Karen's apartment) and of course he got tagged multiple times by Wilson Fisk whom is an unskilled strong guy. The amount of unimpressive people that have been able to tag him really says a lot about his combat speed.

@jayc1324

TheNaughtyTitan tried to make a thread saying that and he deleted it because he got proved wrong.

I admitted I was wrong before I deleted the thread, I feel like you're trying to make it sound like something it wasn't. I didn't want to continue to spread misinformation, the thread was unnecessary at that point.

:P

@ultrastarkiller:

Here's the time line as I understand it.

Batman is of course 8 when his parents were shot.

Then he reamerged for Joe Chills trial at what looked like 19.

He the trained for 5 years mastering Kayc, and according to Ras, other fighting styles. Then he was pulled out of out of prison the same year and Batman Begins ensues.

Then after one year the Dark Knight happened.

Then after 8 years the Dark Knight Rises happened.

You can show me an interview that says other wise, but I'm sertainly posative that it has been one year.

@username12345: No. His parents died when he was eight. He went to to college. He came back from college when he was 23, then he left and trained in various martial arts and with Ra's for seven years (it is unclear how long he's been with Ra's but if I had to assume it would be years). When he came back the events of Begins transpired. Then in Begins his 30th birth day happened. Knight was only a 2-8 months after Batman Begins because win Rises he is 38. That's the timeline.

Team 1 medium difficulty.

Well I'm not to far off in terms of ages, but can you show me where it said it was only 2-8 months.

Either way Batman beat Ra's up when he was just starting, and Batman is the MVP.

@username12345: I forget where I read that but I'm pretty sure it's accurate. It's hard to displace any way because his ageing that movie is never stated.

Batman never beat Ra's, he nearly banked in on Ra's getting distracted. Ra's beat up Batman as he got Batman to the ground and in both fights he was knocking him all over the place. If Gordon didn't blow the tracks Bruce would have died.

But this doesn't really matter as we both agree team Gotham wins.

@jayc1324:I know Matt beat fisk. Fisk still beat him up badly during the fight though.

You said that he lost but OK sure. Even then Matt took worse beatings.

Kind of like how Matt beat Nobu, but still got beaten up badly. Fisk is certainly formidable. But daredevil is a trained ninja, he should not be getting dominated like that.

And like I said before that says more about Fisk as a fighter than it does about Matt. Hypothetically if Batman is beating up a gang and only one random goon who we had no previous background information on suddenly put up a fight and makes Batman earn his win wouldn't that mean that the random goon gets scaled up to being a good fighter instead of Batman being scaled down as a fighter?

For example, in the movie Thor, Thor (depowered) goes through most of the SHIELD agents like wet paper. Suddenly he encounters the big guy and is struggling with him. Does that make Thor any less of an impressive/skilled fighter than he was before?

Or in Captain America 2, Cap gets tagged by Batroc a few times, something that most likely never happened before unless his opponent was a superhuman. Does that mean that Cap combat speed wasn't as good as we thought? No it just means that Batroc is more impressive than the average fodder.

Same goes with Fisk. Giving a skilled fighter a tough fight establishes the opponent especially when the opponent has little to no feats.

The only time Batman got dominated was when he fought a superhuman who has the exact same training as him and couldn't feel pain, while he had an injured knee and was far out of his prime.

He was also dominated by Ras who certainly is not superhuman.

@TheNaughtyTitan Daredevil has repeatedly been tagged by fodder (episode 1, the traffickers and the guy in Karen's apartment) and of course he got tagged multiple times by Wilson Fisk whom is an unskilled strong guy. The amount of unimpressive people that have been able to tag him really says a lot about his combat speed.

Episode 1: Fair enough on the dock scene. The guy in Karen's apartment (Rance) was said to have been a professional so he must have been somewhat skilled at least. He was able to realign himself in mid-air despite being flipped by Matt and continued to fight after falling out of a 2-3 story window and getting his arm broken later so he has pretty good pain tolerance. So I doubt he's just some random goon from the streets.

Episode 2: Matt was severely injured and was only tagged about three times around the end of the fight when he was fatigued and was mainly hit from behind.

Episode 3: John Healy was shown to be an adept fighter beforehand (casually dispatched two bodyguards in seconds) and Daredevil was somewhat injured (one of his old wounds was bleeding when he was done following Wesely). IIRC Matt was mostly in control of the fight.

Episode 4: Had a couple of new wounds between episodes. Wasn't tagged in this episode. Mainly used stealth.

Episode 5: Wasn't tagged in the back alley scene. Only had trouble with one guy before the warehouse blew up. So fair enough on that front.

Episode 6: Wasn't tagged by the cops. Vladimir caught him off guard and they fell down two floors. Wasn't tagged by SWAT officers.

Episode 7: Was tazed by Leland when Stick distracted him. Wasn't tagged by Nobu's henchmen. Stick was Matt's master and was skilled.

Episode 8: Was mainly a flashback episode. Didn't really have a fight. Choked out Hoffman but that was it.

Episode 9: Nobu was a well-trained ninja. Pretty skilled.

Episode 10: Didn't fight this episode. EDIT: He did in a flashback. Might have been tagged once but he was just starting out as a vigilante.

Episode 11: Was only tagged by Melvin Potter and that was when Daredevil was still dealing with injuries (winced in pain immediately before getting tagged). Claire was also stitching him up earlier in the episode (even told him to rest) because Matt reopened old wounds trying to move. So Daredevil wasn't at 100% when being tagged.

Episode 12: Wasn't tagged by goons. Was tagged by once Madam Gao who seemed a lot stronger than anyone else in the show (Daredevil was sliding on the floor for 5-9 feet after being hit).

Episode 13: Wasn't tagged by cops. Tagged by Fisk who as I said before should be scaled to Daredevil's level instead of the other way around.

By my count Matt was only tagged by fodder in two or three fights without mitigating factors (injuries, being off-guard/distracted, etc.) throughout the entire season. He was mainly tagged when: a) fighting guys with skill, b) while being injured, c) or when being off guard/distracted.

And wasn't Batman tagged by fodder as well?

Two guys hit him in the last one. Not trying to make a point, just that it might be kinda hard to see due to the camera shots and lighting.

Mattg was really only in danger once during the fight. Kingpin was knocked over more than he was. And even when Matt was in danger of losing he turned it around:

1:40-2:19 is when Matt was in danger. But he turned it around at 2:19 so I really don't see the big deal. And even in this one fight he showed more acrobatics than batman ever did, and some decent strength by tossing kingpin. I don't really see it as a bad showing at all. Yea Kingpin was untrained but he seemed very fast for a man his size (he dodged a few hits from Matt), and had a huge strength advantage along with a durability edge.

Honestly I don't think either the nolanverse or the netflix daredevil show really have any real established fighters outside of Matt and Bruce.

@jashro44: The big deal is that Matt was on the ground getting beat down with his own baton. Fisk had him beat there, but Matt found a way to win anyway. Doesn't change the fact that Fisk ragdolled him and beat him up.

Acrobatics are irrelevant. That strength feat is still weaker than Batman's strength feats.

Batman also has a strength and durability advantage on Matt, and is very fast as well. Plus he's actually trained. So I see no reason he loses if Fisk did so well. A trained ninja losing to an untrained man just because he's big and tough isn't good at all.

And Daredevil has Nobu, Stick, and Melvin Potter. Nolan's trilogy has Ra's, Bane, and Catwoman. All established fighters.

And he still found a way to win. So really its not that big of a deal.

No they aren't. Balance is very important in a fight. What are batmans strength feats? Lifting Ras with one arm? Dragging Lau with one arm? Yea sure daredevil did use kingpings own momentum but kingpin seems to be a lot heavier than either Ras or Lau. The strength gap really doesn't seem big, all though I might give Bruce the nod. However Nolan batman has very little displays of agility and very few feats which compare to daredevil hitting Nobu's darts out of the air, or hitting sticks arrow out of the air after it was fired IIRC.

I don't think he has durability. Matt took a beating from kingpin for like a full minute with his billy club. Batman was harmed by joker and his dogs. Usually the big feat people bring up is Bruce saving Rachel, however I hear the script confirms batmans cape was used as drag, and not to mention we have a more relevant feat in the end of the movie which directly contradicts that showing when Bruce falls saving Gordons kid and hurts his knee for years. I'm inclined to go with the latter showing since that was kind of a big plot point in the 3rd Nolan movie.

As for Matt losing to kingpin, kingpin in the comics wasn't always a skilled fighter. When he stomped captain america cap even commented kingpin had little technique, but Steve still got stomped. Should we think less of comic captain america for this? Comic Batman recently had issues with joker on Dionesium (which only slightly enhanced jokers stats, I mean nightwing was able to dodge him fine). Deathstroke defeated batman despite Bruce having more training, and all though he does have a stat edge batman, its not like its monstrous in comparison to batmans stats. Hell Ras Al Ghul's canon fodder are trained in every known fighting style on the planet, yet even Joker has beaten them despite Joker having little training if any at all. I am not bringing these examples to low ball as obviously training is a factor but the point is fights aren't always won by someone who is more skilled, sometimes it really does just come down to knowing how to use your advantages against your enemy.

Training isn't everything, and it never has been in fiction. There is a difference between being a better fighter and being a better martial artist. This is why the kingpin showing shouldn't be used to low ball Matt because Fisks only showing which establishes his rank is fighting daredevil and crushing a mans skull in a car door. We really don't know how batman would do against Fisk.

I agree with the fact that so far Matt hasn't faced established fighters he isn't really all that. However I disagree with the logic that Matt is inferior to Bruce because he struggled with kingpin because we don't know much about kingpins fighting abilities. There are street brawlers in real life who have beaten up black belts. Hell my sister is a black belt in kung-fu and I haven't had a day of training in my life but the last time we fought when we got mad at each other I just threw her to the ground (this was years ago we don't fight now that we have matured, but she was a black belt than too). Just because Fisk lacks training doesn't mean he isn't a good fighter, it just means he isn't a martial artist and doesn't rely on finesse. There is nothing wrong with that since kingpin showed he can make good use of his stats despite having no known training.

Nobu and Melvin Potter are only established through there fights with Matt. Stick can arguably be considered an established fighter since he apparently knew how to do things like heal through meditation, but I don't think that means much. Ras only has his showing against batman. Seliana has her showing against Banes thugs I guess but it really is nothing Matt hasn't replicated. The only notable established fighter you have really mentioned is bane who is arguably better than Bruce since Bruce only beat Bane by cutting his mask with his gauntlets.

What I mean by established fighters are people with feats of there own. I'm not even arguing for Matt and Nobu I'm just saying that Matts showing against kingpin really isn't that bad. I will admit that the Netflix daredevil show doesn't seem to be to over the top as of yet, however neither is the Nolanverse. Even the established fighters don't have a whole lot to brag about outside there fights with Matt and Bruce respectfully. Bane beat some fodder IIRC, and was noted by Alfred to have high levels of power and speed. Matt beat a guy that blitzed two body guards. Cat woman beat up some thugs as well. The problem with these feats is they aren't much to brag about.

Looking at another universe like arrow, we saw someone like Billy Wintergreen catch an arrow and in the comics he defeated Shado. So we know winter green is impressive because he has showings of reflexes and a showing against another skilled fighter. So we can confirm Slade beating Winter green is something to brag about (even if only slightly), and than when Oliver beats Slade its something even more to brag about. I'm looking for these sorts of showings against established fighters. The Nolanverse has 2 established fighters in Cat woman, and bane, but Bruce beat bane due to a weakness and never fought cat woman. Matt has one established fighter really and the guy doesn't have a feat thats really anything to brag about. So its hard to compare who is the better fighter when the fighters in both universes don't have a lot to go on. Where as with something like Arrow we have a lot to go on in terms of the heiarchy of fighters. In the Nolan and Daredevil series the only heriarchy that exists is basically with Nolan batman and Matt in the middle and people who have beaten them (Nobu, Bane) are the top tiers where as people who lost or haven't fought them are inferior. So this leads me to believe the arrowverse is more established and better since they don't just rely on Oliver to establish fighters, but other characters have feats of there own outside of fighting Oliver.

I think an issue I'm having with this fight is that we can only really compare showings of strength, durability, and reflexes because we don't have a solid gauge of fighting ability. If someone can think of some established fighter that either Matt or Bruce have beaten that has feats of there own to go on; let me know. Anyways I rambled a bit off topic, however my point is we can't really compare the fighting performance between Matt and Batman based on who they fought because we don't really know how they stack up against each other outside of just comparing who has better feats between Matt and Bruce.

I still think this fight can go either way. I might be leaning towards Matt and Nobu slightly, but its been a while since I saw batman begins which is where I believe most of Bruces best feats took place.

Nolan's characters are pathetic. I can get on board with Matt soloing. Bane instead of Batman would make this a better fight. They still lose but it'd be a better fight.

@pokeysteve: I'd say that Marvel wins but I doubt Matt would be soloing.

@jashro44: i consider Matt getting his ass kicked by an untrained man a big deal.

Yes acrobatics are irrelevant. Its just fanciness. Floyd mayweather isn't an acrobat but has great balance. Ronda rousey is the same. That's just a fancy style. Don't favor style over results. People think MCU Black Widow is so great and would beat the crap out of batman because her style is fancy and looks good compared to batman's, when in reality she has only fought one skilled person (Hawkeye), and Hawkeye has no feats himself. Style doesn't matter here.

Bruce is a lot stronger. Lifting Ra's with one arm is far more Matt could do. So is lifting the wooden beam off of himself in BB. Matt struggled to lift a manhole cover. He is nowhere near Batman's size or strength.

Um I'd consider batman aim dodging to be amazing agility... He also took part in an agility drill during his league of assassins training. Matt may be more agile, but batman isn't anything to scoff at.

Matt's armor simply doesn't have feats to match Batman's. Taser resistant, survived skyscraper fall (yes with cape I know but still more than what matt's suit has shown). Plus batman took tons of hits from Bane and kept getting back up until bane literally broke him. He is just as determined as Matt and will not give up due to pain, just like Matt. I could also argue Bruce is more durable outside of his suit. He should have experienced extreme whiplash in TDKR after trying the prison jump, failing and falling dozens of feet only to he suddenly stopped by the rope. Yet he was fine, and this was right after his back healed. Single dogs have killed grown men before. Batman getting bitten while fighting off multiple dogs and not going down is a great showing by itself. Also, batman was able to blitz Dent off of the building at the end of TDK right after getting shot, and after falling three stories directly after he was still good enough to run away from cops and their dogs. He got injured as we saw in TDKR but he still did it.

I am not trying to lowball Matt, I'm just looking at what happened. Fisk dominated him for a good amount of the fight. What you're saying about training and knowing your enemy is true but batman has never gotten beaten down like that, besides against Bane, which is understandable given banes abilities. Its a showing that really doesn't help Matt out. Matt struggles way too often in his fights. To me that shows a lack of skill and punching power compared to batman. Fisk beating up Matt can be justified with his strength and durability but if Matt was all that skilled he could have used his skills to attack his weak points and win. People in real life can beat men much bigger and stronger than them.

Stick is definitely established. He also beat up Matt. He put Matt through a table and could have left then but told him to get up because he was testing Matt for Stone, to see how ready he was for his war.

Ra's matching batman makes him established and yeah Bane is better than batman. But yes I see your point and I agree about the established fighters thing with the Arrow comparison. But sadly Nolan and Daredevil don't have people like that so we have to go with what we know. Everyone is based off of Bruce or Matt.

But I disagree about comparing fighting performance. We can always look at their fights against fodder. And in that regard, it is clear batman is superior. The only time he had any trouble with fodder, or even banes thugs who were said to be above regular fodder by Catwoman, was in TDK when a joker thug landed a punch on him and joker kicked him with the knife in his shoe. Daredevil has performed much worse against fodder.

Even if only comparing strength durability and reflexes, the only area daredevil measures up is reflexes. Batman even has greater combat speed too, which I mentioned above with his feat of KO-ing over a dozen guys in 21 seconds.

I apologize if I forgot to repsond to something you said, you wrote a ton.

Team one.Also daredevil can dodge bullets. Episode 13 right before the Fisk fight. He's flips through the air dodging bullets at nearly point blank range.

@jayc1324:

i consider Matt getting his ass kicked by an untrained man a big deal.

Yes acrobatics are irrelevant. Its just fanciness. Floyd mayweather isn't an acrobat but has great balance. Ronda rousey is the same. That's just a fancy style. Don't favor style over results. People think MCU Black Widow is so great and would beat the crap out of batman because her style is fancy and looks good compared to batman's, when in reality she has only fought one skilled person (Hawkeye), and Hawkeye has no feats himself. Style doesn't matter here.

That isn't what I said. What I said was Matts acrobatic fighting style against kingpin showed incredible levels of balance which is important in a fight. I would say Matt has shown more balance than Bruce. As for your point about Matt fighting an untrained head, I will get to that.

Bruce is a lot stronger. Lifting Ra's with one arm is far more Matt could do.

I don't see how thats better than Matt tossing kingpin.

So is lifting the wooden beam off of himself in BB. Matt struggled to lift a manhole cover. He is nowhere near Batman's size or strength.

Can I see a video of both feats? I don't remember either showing.

Um I'd consider batman aim dodging to be amazing agility... He also took art in an agility drill during his league of assassins training.

Bruce has only aimed dodged in a poorly lit areas though from what I remember. Matt has dodged bullets at closer range plus he has better reflex feats anyways. If your talking about Bruce balancing on the poles the scene I found shows batman falling down and catching himself. I can't say thats comparable to what Matt did.

Matt's armor simply doesn't have feats to match Batman's. Taser resistant,

Matt isn't using a tazer on batman so this is irrelevant.

survived skyscraper fall (yes with cape I know but still more than what matt's suit has shown).

Not really. Rachel survived the same fall. Logically the shcok would carry up through Bruces body and she would have still died if they hit with lots of force.

Plus batman took tons of hits from Bane and kept getting back up until bane literally broke him. He is just as determined as Matt and will not give up due to pain, just like Matt. I could also argue Bruce is more durable outside of his suit. He should have experienced extreme whiplash in TDKR after trying the prison jump, failing and falling dozens of feet only to he suddenly stopped by the rope. Yet he was fine, and this was right after his back healed. Single dogs have killed grown men before. Batman getting bitten while fighting off multiple dogs and not going down is a great showing by itself.

Matt defeating a bunch of Russians after having near death injuries is better than all these feats.

I am not trying to lowball Matt, I'm just looking at what happened. Fisk dominated him for a good amount of the fight. What you're saying about training and knowing your enemy is true but batman has never gotten beaten down like that, besides against Bane, which is understandable given banes abilities. Its a showing that really doesn't help Matt out. Matt struggles way too often in his fights. To me that shows a lack of skill and punching power compared to batman. Fisk beating up Matt can be justified with his strength and durability but if Matt was all that skilled he could have used his skills to attack his weak points and win. People in real life can beat men much bigger and stronger than them.

Again though what are you comparing this to? The only person who is most comparable to Fisk is Bane (all though they are different for obvious reasons), and Bruce never out skilled him and only won through exploiting a weakness. I could just as easily say Bruce struggles in his fights as well. Even against Ras Bruce only won when Ras got distracted, even Bruce sarcastically noted he needed to learn to mind his surroundings. Which fighter has batman actually beaten through skill?

Stick is definitely established. He also beat up Matt. He put Matt through a table and could have left then but told him to get up because he was testing Matt for Stone, to see how ready he was for his war.

Stick lost to Matt. Its not like he gave Matt a chance to get up when he threw Matt through the table. He kept kicking Matt.

Ra's matching batman makes him established and yeah Bane is better than batman. But yes I see your point and I agree about the established fighters thing with the Arrow comparison. But sadly Nolan and Daredevil don't have people like that so we have to go with what we know. Everyone is based off of Bruce or Matt.

And thats my point. So the only way to really compare who the better fighters are in there universes is to compare Bruce and Matts actual strength, reflexes, technique, and durability showings and all that. Fisk beaitng on Matt is his feat, it doesn't translate to Nolan batman because there stats and fighting styles aren't comparable.

But I disagree about comparing fighting performance. We can always look at their fights against fodder. And in that regard, it is clear batman is superior. The only time he had any trouble with fodder, or even banes thugs who were said to be above regular fodder by Catwoman, was in TDK when a joker thug landed a punch on him and joker kicked him with the knife in his shoe. Daredevil has performed much worse against fodder.

At first I was told Matt struggled with fodder frequently but after finishing daredevil I don't know where this came from. He only struggled once when he was near dead. I can only assume people are confusing unnamed characters with fodder characters but they are not the same thing.

Even if only comparing strength durability and reflexes, the only area daredevil measures up is reflexes. Batman even has greater combat speed too, which I mentioned above with his feat of KO-ing over a dozen guys in 21 seconds.

I think Matt can beat 12 guys in 21 seconds.

@jashro44: Bruce showed balance as well. Back when training with the LOA and their drills.

You don't see how lifting a 200+ pound man with ONE ARM while having his body under immense stress since all of his weight was being put on his other arm is better than Matt using martial arts skill (not all strength) to flip Fisk? Ronda Rousey or any other skilled Judo practioner could do the same thing, minus the extra fancy flip Matt throws in (which also adds momentum and just makes it less of a strength feat). It doesn't compare to the raw strength batman showed. Daredevil was never shown to be all that strong in the show. Go on YouTube and search "Batman Begins - Alfred rescues Bruce". I would link it but I'm on my phone. Type that title in exactly for the right video. And there's likely no video of Matt with the manhole cover, but I know that it happened in episode 6 in the building with Vladimir. He needed Vladimir's help to lift the manhole cover before they escaped through the sewers. Bruce is 6 feet tall and 220 pounds. Matt is like 5'10" and 175 pounds (Charlie cox actually confirmed his daredevil weight to be 175). You can just look at them and tell who's stronger.

That particular instance isn't comparable but I shows that agility is something Batman trained. He's a ninja just like Matt. We only saw him in the beginning stages but given Ra's statement that Bruce was his best student ever we can assume he mastered that drill by the end. It is enough to at least say that Batman is very, very agile.

Real world logic is not relevant here. Logically Daredevil would not be able to smell and hear things as well as he can and he would not even exist as a hero. Logically Batman would have been shot on his first day. The very existence of these characters defies logic. Either way, I could even use Bruce falling three stories at the end of TDK to say his suit is more durable since matt has no feats to match that.

Matt beating fodder while injured is great, but they are still fodder. Persistent fodder, but still unskilled fodder.

Stick was testing Matt. That is nearly explicitly stated. He kicked Matt twice and then turned his back to him as if he was going to walk away. That's when Matt got up. So yes, stick did let him get up. Stick could have continued kicking if he liked. And either way, this was all a test.

I still don't agree with your claim that we can't compare fighting skill. OK fine, we don't have to call Rance, Melvin, and Healy fodder, but we can assume that they are near matt's skill level. And if random guys in Hells kitchen are close to Matt then he can't be all that great. No one but bane and ras could touch Bruce. Yet Matt gets good fights from random guys like Melvin and Healy. They are trained and are not exactly fodder, but the fact that their training put them near matts level says something about matt's skill. Also, Nobu was not even one of the higher ninjas in his clan and he still destroyed Matt. That means there are many others in the clan who can beat Matt. My point is that there are way too many people who can give Matt a tough time. Matt has incomplete training and isn't meant to be the best fighter in this show, which is made clear but all of his struggles. Batman on the other hand stomped everyone but Ras and Bane. It is quite unimpressive for Matt to be matched by so many people, compared to Batman's count of 2

Not sure why you think Matt can beat a dozen guys in 21 seconds. If you watch that scene again, the choreography was so fast that we could barely even see what batman was doing. Nolan said he did this on purpose, so that the viewer would see batman how criminals saw him, which was basically as a blur. Matt has never, never moved that fast. And you can go back to Nolan Batman's respect thread if you want proof of Nolan saying that.

@jayc1324: I'll read your post tomorrow.

@jashro44: I will eagerly await your response :p

@jayc1324:

You don't see how lifting a 200+ pound man with ONE ARM while having his body under immense stress

Ras weight was never stated in the movie. Just because Liam Neeson weighs 200 ibs doesn't necessarily mean Ras does. I agree its a good feat though.

since all of his weight was being put on his other arm is better than Matt using martial arts skill (not all strength) to flip Fisk? Ronda Rousey or any other skilled Judo practioner could do the same thing,

I don't see how this changes the feat, all though I honestly doubt they could. According to google Vincent D'onofrio weighed 280 ibs when play the role of kingpin. I doubt Ronda Rousey could lift him an inch off the ground honestly let alone toss him but I could be wrong. If you have a video proving otherwise I would like to see it. Regardless I still don't think the feats are far apart. If we are basing things on the weight of the actor than he is a lot heavier than Liam Neeson by 80ibs. That and Bruce was strained in his feat whereas Matt wasn't strained when he tossed kingpin.

Maybe Bruce is stronger but the gap isn't that big.

minus the extra fancy flip Matt throws in (which also adds momentum and just makes it less of a strength feat). It doesn't compare to the raw strength batman showed. Daredevil was never shown to be all that strong in the show. Go on YouTube and search "Batman Begins - Alfred rescues Bruce". I would link it but I'm on my phone. Type that title in exactly for the right video. And there's likely no video of Matt with the manhole cover, but I know that it happened in episode 6 in the building with Vladimir. He needed Vladimir's help to lift the manhole cover before they escaped through the sewers.

Man hole covers weigh 300 pounds and there is a difference between lifting and what Bruce did. Bruce roled the log off of him, and wood tends to weigh less than metal. Not to mention Bruce did have help from Alfred.

Bruce is 6 feet tall and 220 pounds. Matt is like 5'10" and 175 pounds (Charlie cox actually confirmed his daredevil weight to be 175). You can just look at them and tell who's stronger.

Fetas>On paper statistics.

That particular instance isn't comparable but I shows that agility is something Batman trained. He's a ninja just like Matt. We only saw him in the beginning stages but given Ra's statement that Bruce was his best student ever we can assume he mastered that drill by the end. It is enough to at least say that Batman is very, very agile.

Not as agile as Matt.

Real world logic is not relevant here. Logically Daredevil would not be able to smell and hear things as well as he can and he would not even exist as a hero. Logically Batman would have been shot on his first day. The very existence of these characters defies logic. Either way, I could even use Bruce falling three stories at the end of TDK to say his suit is more durable since matt has no feats to match that.

I actually did already bring up batmans fall at the end of the dark knight. Matt getting wacked repeatedly by a baton for a full minute from kingpin to the point sparks fly is pretty comparable. I'm not really using real world logic by bringing up Rachel surviving the fall, I'm just bringing it up to point out how much the cape broke there fall.

Matt beating fodder while injured is great, but they are still fodder. Persistent fodder, but still unskilled fodder.

Well when Bruce was stabbed by Talia he seemed to really feel the pain. Comparatively Matt with more severe injuries pretty much beat down a room full of Russians unarmed. Bruce was never in that situation and based on his reaction he was in a lot of pain when Talia stabbed him. Matt was stabbed, had a few broken bones, and a collapsed lung IIRC and when on to fight the fodder. I don't think Bruce can do this.

Stick was testing Matt. That is nearly explicitly stated. He kicked Matt twice and then turned his back to him as if he was going to walk away. That's when Matt got up. So yes, stick did let him get up. Stick could have continued kicking if he liked. And either way, this was all a test.

He was testing him but that doesn't mean he was holding back.

I still don't agree with your claim that we can't compare fighting skill. OK fine, we don't have to call Rance, Melvin, and Healy fodder, but we can assume that they are near matt's skill level. And if random guys in Hells kitchen are close to Matt then he can't be all that great.

Well that was my point about being a better fighter=//=being more skillful. Just because they can fight Matt doesn't make them as skilled as him. Again how do we compare how batman would do when batman never fought these people?

No one but bane and ras could touch Bruce. Yet Matt gets good fights from random guys like Melvin and Healy. They are trained and are not exactly fodder, but the fact that their training put them near matts level says something about matt's skill. Also, Nobu was not even one of the higher ninjas in his clan and he still destroyed Matt. That means there are many others in the clan who can beat Matt. My point is that there are way too many people who can give Matt a tough time.

So how do you know that these fighters couldn't beat batman? Your using a false equivalency by assuming that the fighters in the nolanverse are equal to the ones in the MCU. Keep in mind that matt does exist in the same universe with the avengers, so his universe is less grounded than batmans to begin with. Now it is true Matt fights less grounded enemies than the avengers do but thats besides the point. We don't know anything about these other fighters.

Matt has incomplete training and isn't meant to be the best fighter in this show, which is made clear but all of his struggles. Batman on the other hand stomped everyone but Ras and Bane. It is quite unimpressive for Matt to be matched by so many people, compared to Batman's count of 2

Well thats only setting the bar very high. Bane and Ras are the only established fighters aside from cat woman who he never fought. Yea batman would probably beat her, but Matt probably would to.

Not sure why you think Matt can beat a dozen guys in 21 seconds. If you watch that scene again, the choreography was so fast that we could barely even see what batman was doing. Nolan said he did this on purpose, so that the viewer would see batman how criminals saw him, which was basically as a blur. Matt has never, never moved that fast. And you can go back to Nolan Batman's respect thread if you want proof of Nolan saying that.

I am aware and thats why I feel this is a good fight. Nolan never said he was moving as a blur but "blindingly quick". We see him fight in the criminals perspective, as Nolan says and we still see batman, he's just moving to fast for us to really defend against, and we only see glimpses of him, but we still see him. As to why I think Matt can beat 12 guys in 21 seconds I think he is to fast for the average person to really keep up with.

@jashro44: So we are seemingly in agreement in batman being stronger and Matt being more agile.

You don't need Fisk's strength to create sparks by hitting something. If anything, that has more to do with the material of the baton and matt's suit. Getting hit with a stick, even by a powerful man like Fisk, is not at all similar to falling three stories. Even with the cape slowing the fall, that feat is still greater than the feat of matt's suit, given that batman and rachel crushed the car they landed on.

I see how Matt had worse injuries, but let's not forget that Bruce had just fought bane, and was likely in emotional pain too, given Talia's betrayal of him, as well as being shocked at her being the daughter of Ra's. I don't think his facial expression (what I assume you mean by reaction) is enough to tell how badly he was hurt given all of that. Plus, he was just fine after getting kicked in the stomach by jokers knife in his shoe. So I suppose Matt does have the better feats there, but its not a large gap given Bruce's feat of falling each time he failed to make the jump in the prison in TdKR right after having his back healed and being fine, as well as fighting off dogs after being bitten. He is very tough and resilient as well, but I'll agree in giving Matt the edge in durability outside of their suits. Not that it matters much since they have their suits here.

I do think that stick was holding back to some degree since he was testing him. If you are testing someone's skills to see how ready they are you aren't going to relentlessly beat the crap out of them. You are going to give them a chance to fight, which is exactly what stick did when he briefly turned his back on Matt after putting him through a table and kicking him. Also, Matt only turned the fight around when he picked up the wooden batons.

Good point about being a good fighter not meaning good skill, but we can use physicals to judge whether batman can beat them. Which was basically your original point about not being able to accurately judge skill, so I concede that one.

The average person likely couldn't keep up with Matt, but that doesn't prove he could KO 12 people in 21 seconds. That's not about moving faster than people could keep up with or react to, its more about being able to even land effective hits on that many people in such a short amount of time. Even if the fodder could keep up with him, striking 12 men in 21 seconds would still be impressive. But he hasn't shown combat/striking speed like that.

@jayc1324:

You don't need Fisk's strength to create sparks by hitting something. If anything, that has more to do with the material of the baton and matt's suit. Getting hit with a stick, even by a powerful man like Fisk, is not at all similar to falling three stories. Even with the cape slowing the fall, that feat is still greater than the feat of matt's suit, given that batman and rachel crushed the car they landed on.

All they did was crack the window of the car when they landed. That isn't more impressive than Matts feats. As for the sparks, take a metal base ball bat and hit a car. It wont create sparks. You wont create sparks like kingpin did when he hit Matt.

I see how Matt had worse injuries, but let's not forget that Bruce had just fought bane, and was likely in emotional pain too, given Talia's betrayal of him, as well as being shocked at her being the daughter of Ra's. I don't think his facial expression (what I assume you mean by reaction) is enough to tell how badly he was hurt given all of that.

He was also breathing heavily which tells me that he was in physical pain.

Plus, he was just fine after getting kicked in the stomach by jokers knife in his shoe. So I suppose Matt does have the better feats there, but its not a large gap given Bruce's feat of falling each time he failed to make the jump in the prison in TdKR right after having his back healed and being fine, as well as fighting off dogs after being bitten. He is very tough and resilient as well, but I'll agree in giving Matt the edge in durability outside of their suits. Not that it matters much since they have their suits here.

When did joker show a knife in his shoe?

I do think that stick was holding back to some degree since he was testing him. If you are testing someone's skills to see how ready they are you aren't going to relentlessly beat the crap out of them. You are going to give them a chance to fight, which is exactly what stick did when he briefly turned his back on Matt after putting him through a table and kicking him. Also, Matt only turned the fight around when he picked up the wooden batons.

Your point about the batons is fair. I still disagree Stick wasn't going full out. Regardless I don't think this matters since sticks only real showing of note is his performance against Matt.

Good point about being a good fighter not meaning good skill, but we can use physicals to judge whether batman can beat them. Which was basically your original point about not being able to accurately judge skill, so I concede that one.

Thank you.

The average person likely couldn't keep up with Matt, but that doesn't prove he could KO 12 people in 21 seconds. That's not about moving faster than people could keep up with or react to, its more about being able to even land effective hits on that many people in such a short amount of time. Even if the fodder could keep up with him, striking 12 men in 21 seconds would still be impressive. But he hasn't shown combat/striking speed like that.

Eh, I'll admit this is a good feat. I think its about even with Matts feat against the Russians personally, all though I personally find Matts feat a bit better. He never beat the Russians as quickly but he was in pretty horrible condition. That and we see some of the fodder daredevil fought were armed with guns (one had a shot gun, another had a pistol) where as with Bruce his fodder scene when he beat the 12 thugs in 21 seconds were armed with pipes.

I think this is a close fight though. I admit I am almost unsure if Matt wins.

@jashro44: The sparks may indicate the power of Fisk's strikes but I still am not seeing how getting hit with a stick compared to falling off a skyscraper, even when the fall is slowed by Batman's cape. Fisk hitting the hood of a car with a stick wouldn't have the same effect, and wouldn't cause the windows to crack. Also on the topic of batman falling on cars, at the beginning of TDK he defeats scarecrow by dropping down onto his van and crushing it. Go to 3:15 in this video.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i2xX1qkP_ZI

Joker used the blade in his shoe on batman during the fight scene right before batman and Rachel fall from the skyscraper. Not really as harmful as what Matt has been through but its worth mentioning.

I hope we see a lot more feats from Matt in season 2. Its good enough for me that you at least see it as a close fight and see that Bruce can win though.

Bats and Ra's

Giving it to team one in a good fight.

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Just skimming through the comments but wasn't this fight directly after he fought Nobu?. IIRC he was badly injured after that fight.

@comicace3: No he was talking about their final fight in episode 13 when Fisk gained the upper hand.

Oh ok my bad.

@comicace3: It's cool. You decided on a winner yet?

@dstreet45: I'm leaning towards DD and Nobu. But its close.

@comicace3: Cool. Same here.

Its actually not hard to crack the wind shield of a car. That and Matt actually sent someone flying 10 ft into a car window and cracked the wind shield with a kick. So if I am wrong and it turns out to be a great feat than that makes Matt more impressive, and Fisk by extension since he was tanking hits from Matt.

@jashro44: That just shows Matt's striking power. And the windshield wasn't the only thing broken, the driver side window was cracked too when they fell from the skyscraper, and likely the other widows as well.

Fisk is still much less than Bane.

Cracking windows on cars really isn't that hard to do.

@jashro44: So Matt can kick people hard enough to break glass. Doesn't matter very much when Batman can easily take those hits like nothing.

team 1

Team 1.

Team 2 in epic stomp.

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