Daredevil and Nobu vs Malcolm Merlyn

MCU Daredevil and Nobu vs CW Malcolm Merlyn.

All are wearing their standard outfits (Matt has his red suit). Matt has his two batons, Nobu is unarmed, and Merlyn has his bow to use as a melee weapon; as such this will be a melee fight with no ranged weaponry allowed. Win via death or incapacitation. Fight takes place in an abandoned warehouse in New York City and they start 10 yards apart. Perfect chemistry for Matt and Nobu.

Who wins and why?

Matt and Nobu in a clear win.

Merlyn vs either one of these two individually is imo a debatable fight, vs the two of them and he loses.

In h2h merlyn beats either imo.

I think team has an advantage but id back merlyn for 5.5/10

Obviously Merlyn wrecks them both. Looking at the feats and capabilities of both universes Arrow is far more comic booky and over the top. Daredevil is more realistic than Nolan Batman. Certainly a great show, and yes the choreography is better than Arrow, but Matt nearly dies every time he needs to fight someone stronger than him, and Nobu's only fight in the whole season was outskilling Matt. So when Malcolm had both Oliver and Diggle beat at the same time by himself, and can fight against super soldiers and super ninjas through sheer skill and tactics, these two together aren't going to cause him anything more than mid-difficulty.

Merlyn stomps

Merlyn would beat both of them in 1v1, but it would be hard in a 2v1, but still leaning slightly towards Merlyn

Depends if you want to judge it of choreography in which daredevil team stomps or if you want to do by comic standards where everyone apart from the main guys are weak sauce and get one shotted in the CW verse

Bump.

Team stomp mismatch

Both have a good chance st soloing 1v1

Scratch that Nobu solos with a stomp

Still Malcolm. The upper tiers of Arrow are still way better in every sense than anyone in Daredevil

@royal_warrior: Wasn't a mismatch while the battle was made.

Anyways team should be able to pick up the victory now

Team wins. Either one could give him a good fight solo

Easy win for Merlyn. Merlyn is better than both at hand-to-hand, by far.

Nobu, as always, is severely overrated. His only feat is beating Matt up, and that was with his Kyoketsu Shoge, and he doens't even get to use it here in this fight. That Matt Murdock was a really weak one, weaker than red-suit Matt, who had stamina issues and got tired fighting generic street thugs. Can't even one-hit simple thugs. Merlyn destroyed S1 Oliver, and Oliver was easily one-hitting thugs all throughout the season. Merlyn even handled both Oliver and Diggle at the same time, and I would pick Oliver/Diggle vs. Matt/Nobu any day of the weak.

Meanwhile Matt is always severely injured fighting anyone that isn't a generic thug, and heck he was even almost killed fighting just simple thugs in Episode 2 of S1. Compare this to Oliver whose hand-to-hand feats were already way beyond what Matt had achieved in the 5-year flashbacks that occured BEFORE the start oF S1, and you see how this isn't even a fair fight.

Even if you are an avid Daredevil fan, you need to look at this objectively and realize that the power level in Netflix Daredevil is severely low, and certainly much lower than Arrowverse power levels.

Wait...you think Flashback Ollie is better than Daredevil?

The thugs in Daredevil aren't as incompetent as other fodder, they don't usually just go down in one hit. Compare that to CW, where League of Assassins ninjas have been taken out by Felicity and one-shotted by Jackson, or just fall over after Thea slaps them with her bow.

Team comfortably.

Team. Either one could solo.

Team wins now.

This was made in Season 1 so Merlyn stomps.

Why shouldn't the current feats be applicable?. I mean I know we normally use versions that were created at the time of the thread, but I think that only applies to stuff like retcons and reboots.

Also, Merlyn isn't soloing both of them, even if we restrict to season 1 feats, let alone stomping.

It also applies to powerups or increases in skill in this case. It's not about feat usability (feats from early season 2 should be usable for Matt) it's about changes in the capability of versions.

These two wouldn't really be above Arrow and Diggle with season 1 feats who he already beat. Season 1 Ollie could beat these two and Nobu doesn't really have dodging feats. We can scale from Matt but even he wouldn't survive Malcolm shooting at him feat wise.

@highaccuser: It also applies to powerups or increases in skill in this case. It's not about feat usability (feats from early season 2 should be usable for Matt) it's about changes in the capability of versions.

But that would mean creating a new thread anytime they have a powerup in a subsequent season and that wouldn't make a lot of sense. Not to mention that I don't recall this rule being used when debating comic characters, unless of course we are talking about any reboots or retcons.

For example, an old thread made with pre-52 Batman will only be restricted to such even now, but not so much in the case of say Captain America, who is just the same guy with upgrades (if any).

Also, Matt has had some great combat reaction and strength feats this season, but nothing to put him above his s1 self by leaps and bounds. Same for Nobu, who has gotten a bit better, along with his 'I cannot die for good' reveal

These two wouldn't really be above Arrow and Diggle with season 1 feats who he already beat. Season 1 Ollie could beat these two and Nobu doesn't really have dodging feats. We can scale from Matt but even he wouldn't survive Malcolm shooting at him feat wise.

I kinda agree about Arrow, but disagree about Diggle. But I think Matt with season 2 feats can take Malcolm on his own. Maybe even lose, but not without a fight

Team

Season 2 daredevil feats for these 2 should let them win. Nobu also can't die unless decapitated. So given 5 mins hell be back up and fighting again.

All Malcolm does is catch L's these days.

Merlyn.

Depends. If it's Merlyn from back in the day when he used to be good, the he can takes it. If it's current Malcolm who jobs to the max, then Nobu solos and Daredevil could perhaps beat him.

Merlyn vs DD- Merlyn in a decent fight 8/10

Merlyn vs Nobu- Merlyn in an easier fight (no claws; Nobu goes down faster), 10/10

Merlyn vs them both- Team overwhelms without PIS, 10/10

Lol why are people saying Merlyn wins?

Current Merlyn isn't having great showings, sure, but I wouldn't say everything he does is jobbing. They're trying to convey that other characters (like Sara) have simply reached Merlyn's level, or in Ollie's case surpassed him. Him vs Thea, I could attribute that to some jobbng, or simply family dynamics. He's still good enough to humiliate Nyssa (as usual), so it's not like he now loses to everyone.

How is S1 Ollie above both Matt and Nobu together?

Nobu doesn't have dodging feats specifically, sure, but he's kept up with Matt fine, and I don't think him being able to dodge arrows is that unreasonable an idea. Besides Merlyn doesn't have arrows here

@brucerogers:

But that would mean creating a new thread anytime they have a powerup in a subsequent season and that wouldn't make a lot of sense. Not to mention that I don't recall this rule being used when debating comic characters, unless of course we are talking about any reboots or retcons.

That's allowed, it's been done before. This rule tends to be overlooked a lot (or at least current versions get mentioned) which seems more like time saving than anything. In this instance season 1 would be the only fair version.

For example, an old thread made with pre-52 Batman will only be restricted to such even now, but not so much in the case of say Captain America, who is just the same guy with upgrades (if any).

No that would be allowed. Old threads with Cap he wouldn't have upgrades or gear he didn't have at the time.

Like I said, it gets ignored.

Also, Matt has had some great combat reaction and strength feats this season, but nothing to put him above his s1 self by leaps and bounds. Same for Nobu, who has gotten a bit better, along with his 'I cannot die for good' reveal

Nobu ragdolled Matt and kicked around a huge sarcoughogus. He didn't have feats like that Season 1. Matt I won't argue either way because it depends on how good you think he is compared to Nobu.

I kinda agree about Arrow, but disagree about Diggle. But I think Matt with season 2 feats can take Malcolm on his own. Maybe even lose, but not without a fight

Diggle fought evenly with China White in season 1 IIRC who could fight Ollie pretty well. I don't think he's beat Nobu (even season 1) without guns but he would beat Daredevil. Also he held off Al Sah Him later though you could argue improvement. With Matt like I said it depends on how much you think he improved as opposed to Nobu just being inconsistent.

Perfect chemistry for Team? Current version of Malcolm? This battle just isn't fair.

Difference is, in a case like this, nothing particularly significant has happened to Malcolm to make his current version different from S1 version (yeah, he lost a hand, but the prosthetic seems to work just fine for him)

Diggle fought China White but wasn't as good as her. And while China was even with or better than Ollie in her very first appearance, he was clearly superior in subsequent fights. Diggle clearly improved from S1 as a result of field time and training with Ollie

I didn't say anything about current Merlyn being different.

She could put up a fight though, I think she should be above Matt. As I said he likely improved.

@arcus1: Season 1 Nobu didn't have feats other than beating Matt which isn't really Ollie's level IMO. Nobu dodging arrows is reasonable but there's still too much scaling involved in claiming he couldn't get hit, although Merlyn also relies on scaling for accuracy now that I think of it.

I didn't actually catch the lack of arrows, fair enough.

But you're saying S1 Merlyn is different from current Merlyn?

Edit: wait, or are you talking about S1 Nobu?

Why should that put her above Matt?

Oops lol I created a mismatch

Lol it is now at least

Yeah I was talking about Nobu.

Because Season 1 Ollie is way better than Season 1 Matt.

Ah ok, that makes more sense

So you're arguing for Merlyn beating Matt and Nobu with just S1 feats...ok

It is worth noting that Merlyn was getting overwhelmed by Ollie and Diggle in h2h, he was gonna lose, which is why he threw the knife at Diggle and escaped to the rooftop

This can probably be locked for being a mismatch by now.

@highaccuser: Season 1 Oliver way better than season 1 Matt?

Hand to hand in a tight environment, he did just fine on the rooftop and IIRC archery wasn't really a factor there on his part.

Yes. For the record I think Season 2 and 3 (pre-Al Sah Him) would be applicable because he didn't get particularly better other than some experience.

On the rooftop he was just fighting Ollie, no Diggle

Yeah not a fair fight

Malcolm loses, even if we take him at his best and them at their worst

Matt is extremely durable, and nobu is a better fighter than matt. Merlyn can probably beat them 1on1, but the numbers will soon overwhelm him, considering matt wont stay down and nobu wont go down easy

If we go by current versions (giving meryln his hand), team wins easy

Duo easily