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#1 Posted by OmegaDynasty (9190 posts) - - Show Bio
 
   
vs  
 
 
 
 
Daleks 
vs 
Borg 
  
Exterminate vs Assimilate 
 
Location: Star Trek Universe. Space. 

 Rules:   
Winner by death, or assimilation. 
Random encounter.  
Morals off.  
#2 Posted by Montaq (935 posts) - - Show Bio

Daleks all the way. The Borg are basically advanced Cybermen, and we all know how that fight turned out.

#3 Posted by JediXMan (30644 posts) - - Show Bio

There are only so many ways the Daleks can destroy the Borg before they adapt.

Moderator
#4 Posted by OmegaDynasty (9190 posts) - - Show Bio
@JediXMan said:

There are only so many ways the Daleks can destroy the Borg before they adapt.

True, but can't the Daleks upgrade, and kind of adapt in a way ? I remember seeing that once.
#5 Posted by JediXMan (30644 posts) - - Show Bio

@OmegaDynasty said:

@JediXMan said:

There are only so many ways the Daleks can destroy the Borg before they adapt.

True, but can't the Daleks upgrade, and kind of adapt in a way ? I remember seeing that once.

They can upgrade, but not as fast as the Borg.

Moderator
#6 Posted by Freefa11 (2389 posts) - - Show Bio

The Daleks nearly collapsed all of space and time and fought the Time Lords to a virtual standstill for eons. The Borg couldn't even conquer one civilization of one quadrant of one galaxy and got their asses beat by Species 8472, a race who's greatest demonstration of firepower was blowing up a planet (and doing it far more slowly than the Deathstar could have accomplished, as a comparison). Also, some quick upgrades to Voyager with tech only a few decades more advanced than normal allowed the ship to one-shot multiple cubes, and withstand bombardment from multiple cubes for quite a while.

The Borg are simply overrated. They only appear nigh-unstoppable when dealing with opponents who are already technologically inferior to themselves (like the Federation; and even then, Voyager did a lot of damage to that image). Their ability to adapt has been shown to have limits, and from what I can tell, Dalek technology exceeds those limits by pretty wide margins.

Plus, Daleks are smart. They might not even need to use raw firepower if they can figure out a way to hack the Borg Collective, or disrupt the subspace signals that connect all the drones and allow the Queen to transmit orders, or they might come up with some sort of invasive program or paradox to cripple the collective, like the Enterprise considered with Hue.

But then I actually know less about the Daleks than the Borg, so maybe they are overrated too. I'm just saying, everything I've heard about them, as well as the Time Lords, suggests a level of tech pretty far beyond almost anything seen in Trek besides the Q.

Also note, I am talking more about their respective empires than individuals, although I'm pretty sure a single Dalek could take out quite a few drones (hell, a single competent Klingon with a Bat'leth could take out quite a few drones).

#7 Posted by batkevin74 (10795 posts) - - Show Bio

@Freefa11 said:

The Daleks nearly collapsed all of space and time and fought the Time Lords to a virtual standstill for eons. The Borg couldn't even conquer one civilization of one quadrant of one galaxy and got their asses beat by Species 8472, a race who's greatest demonstration of firepower was blowing up a planet (and doing it far more slowly than the Deathstar could have accomplished, as a comparison). Also, some quick upgrades to Voyager with tech only a few decades more advanced than normal allowed the ship to one-shot multiple cubes, and withstand bombardment from multiple cubes for quite a while.

The Borg are simply overrated. They only appear nigh-unstoppable when dealing with opponents who are already technologically inferior to themselves (like the Federation; and even then, Voyager did a lot of damage to that image). Their ability to adapt has been shown to have limits, and from what I can tell, Dalek technology exceeds those limits by pretty wide margins.

Plus, Daleks are smart. They might not even need to use raw firepower if they can figure out a way to hack the Borg Collective, or disrupt the subspace signals that connect all the drones and allow the Queen to transmit orders, or they might come up with some sort of invasive program or paradox to cripple the collective, like the Enterprise considered with Hue.

But then I actually know less about the Daleks than the Borg, so maybe they are overrated too. I'm just saying, everything I've heard about them, as well as the Time Lords, suggests a level of tech pretty far beyond almost anything seen in Trek besides the Q.

Also note, I am talking more about their respective empires than individuals, although I'm pretty sure a single Dalek could take out quite a few drones (hell, a single competent Klingon with a Bat'leth could take out quite a few drones).

This, I concur!

#8 Posted by Montaq (935 posts) - - Show Bio

@JediXMan said:

@OmegaDynasty said:

@JediXMan said:

There are only so many ways the Daleks can destroy the Borg before they adapt.

True, but can't the Daleks upgrade, and kind of adapt in a way ? I remember seeing that once.

They can upgrade, but not as fast as the Borg.

I have to disagree with you there. Daleks are smart, crazy smart, they could scan and adapt faster the Borg can react. I can think of some examples but they are hard to find, but I'll try to get them up. Also, the Borg have no way of getting past the Daleks shields. Also, I would like add that the Borg are based of the Cybermen, the Doctors third greatest foe, to the Daleks number one. I know that doesn't mean anything, but I still think its neat.

#9 Posted by Maikel (374 posts) - - Show Bio

The persons who created the Borg were inspired by the Cyberman(There is a little reference in the first appearance of the Borg in TNG, where they list the number of four of the past doctors on a panel), but there is no "connection" between technology or superiority. Also the modern-age "Cygnus industries" Cybermen, are converted humans from a parallel universe whereas the old ones, that the Borg designs were based on, were aliens. The daleks also specifically state this in the first encounter with them.

Now the Daleks are more then likely to meet their match in the Borg, but they won't be completely obliterated, also the timetravelling methods of the Daleks are much more efficient, so they'll escape.

#10 Posted by izbighulk (640 posts) - - Show Bio

daleks

#11 Edited by enough_said (9 posts) - - Show Bio

2:30

also comicvine Parchment v2 sucks

#12 Posted by Vrakmul (23849 posts) - - Show Bio

@OmegaDynasty said:



vs




Daleks
vs
Borg Exterminate vs Assimilate Location: Star Trek Universe. Space. Rules: Winner by death, or assimilation. Random encounter. Morals off.

Daleks in a curbstomp. One species gets repeatedly trounced by a low end human civilization, the other fought in a war against a species where the timelines of entire universes were being negated and erased. Dalek ships are at planet buster levels, which is beyond the Borg's ability to adapt to. They also have vastly superior FTL, allowing them to literally just run rings around the borg and blow up their transwarp conduit system, disabling their entire FTL capability. And of course, the Daleks can just detonate the reality bomb and destroy the entire multiverse if they wanted to. Or they can lob the apocalypse element and destroy the entire star trek universe.

#13 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

@JediXMan said:

There are only so many ways the Daleks can destroy the Borg before they adapt.

#14 Posted by Vrakmul (23849 posts) - - Show Bio

@jeanroygrant said:

@JediXMan said:

There are only so many ways the Daleks can destroy the Borg before they adapt.

No, not really. The Daleks can go back in time, and erase the borg from existence. Additionally, it's canon that Borg adaptation has upper limits, and given that your average saucer is slinging around death star level firepower, the Daleks are going to be breaking that limit. This is a curbstomp, next people will be saying the Borg can hang with the Xeelee or the Downstreamers.

#15 Edited by enough_said (9 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vrakmul said:

@jeanroygrant said:

@JediXMan said:

There are only so many ways the Daleks can destroy the Borg before they adapt.

No, not really. The Daleks can go back in time, and erase the borg from existence. Additionally, it's canon that Borg adaptation has upper limits, and given that your average saucer is slinging around death star level firepower, the Daleks are going to be breaking that limit. This is a curbstomp, next people will be saying the Borg can hang with the Xeelee or the Downstreamers.

Exactly this. I know its not canon to Star Trek but Doctor who and Star Trek already had a crossover and the cybermen solo'd The Borg, Star-fleet, Klingon's, and the Vulcans. The Dalek's are far more advanced than the cybermen are. The time lords were fighting the Dalek's with Supernova and Black Hole weaponry, and they were still losing. Battle Tardis with weapons that could freeze things in time. God like beings (the eternals) left reality because of the Daleks war with the time lords. These guys take warfare to a whole other level. Entire galaxies are destroyed in their fights. This is a massive curbstomp. It's not even close in my opinion.

#16 Posted by RedheadedAtrocitus (6885 posts) - - Show Bio

By feats alone I'd have to say the Daleks steamroll over the Borg. Better technology, FTL and wits I say. Borg are only so good at a being the best so long as they adapt the culture they've assimilated, and they've obviously shown to fail sometimes with regard to that (i.e. Species 8472). To the victory goes the Dalek.

#17 Edited by ironspiderhulkthing94 (12 posts) - - Show Bio

umm the daleks own this.

#18 Edited by Frocharocha (2294 posts) - - Show Bio

Borgs: We will adapt and defeat you all!

Daleks: Hahaha. This won`t be a war. This will be pest control!

Daleks wins with little effort.

#19 Posted by redleader1 (508 posts) - - Show Bio

@montaq: that was the pete's world versions come on the cybermen are as strong. At least the Mundas ones. Plus it seems like the two have fought and no one won. So it would most likely be a close win for Daleks.

#20 Posted by redleader1 (508 posts) - - Show Bio

@enough_said: was it the Mundas cybermen or cybus because mundasians are even more powerful. It seems that they are stronger after all the Daleks don't try and destroy them or if they tried they failed. So they have to be equally powerful. So Daleks still win by far but they aren't that op after all the do get into to many stupid fights.

#21 Posted by Cjdavis103 (9435 posts) - - Show Bio

@montaq: that was the pete's world versions come on the cybermen are as strong. At least the Mundas ones. Plus it seems like the two have fought and no one won. So it would most likely be a close win for Daleks.

there was no need to bump this the Daleks are so much more powerful then all of startreck ( not includeing Q which is an x factor) the borg get fodderized in seconds and they have no counter to Dalek time tricks

#22 Posted by redleader1 (508 posts) - - Show Bio

@montaq: what the cybermen are the doctors second greatest foe arguably the 1st. Who could possibly be between the Daleks and cybermen.

#23 Posted by RD189 (1337 posts) - - Show Bio

Daleks were able to fight the Time Lords to a standstill. The Borg are getting stomped here.

#24 Posted by JwwProd (9501 posts) - - Show Bio

Daleks.

#25 Posted by MugaSofer (9 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm a huge fan of Dr Who and the Daleks, and honestly I think the Borg are kind of stupid. They can be done well, but rarely are.

With that said, people are clearly underestimating the Borg here, and overestimating the Daleks.

Feats:

Daleks: http://pastebin.com/KS8YvfwF

Borg: http://pastebin.com/UAPJyHh3

Obviously, both are evil and seek to replace all life in the universe with copies of themselves. All their feats, with the following exceptions, are essentially identical.

  • Borg drones are treated as disposable, while Dalek troops appear like individually-impressive tanks. Advantage: Daleks. But it is unclear whether this would continue, were they not to outnumber the Dalek forces. (I can't manage to estimate relative numbers, troop-wise.)
  • Both races are vulnerable to heros, but their ethos of mindless conformity does not produce them. Borg have, however, allied with Federation heroes against greater threats. Advantage: Borg.
  • Borg are often stated to be able to assimilate and adapt to anything. Advantage: Borg. However, this has no clearly-stated or obvious mechanical effects, and Daleks are observed to adapt their technology to circumstance.
  • Daleks could, perhaps, attempt to destroy the entire multiverse (except for themselves) a second time. Advantage: Daleks. However, this would presumably attract the attention of other civilizations (such as the Federation and Time Lords), who wish to keep existing.

So ultimately, it all depends on your weighing of these four factors. It is far from *obvious* that either is the technological or military superior.

Personally, I think the only weakness either displays are the luck, cunning and bravery common to heroes. This seems to have always destroyed their plans thus far, whenever it is encountered (one could definitely argue this is PIS, but it seems to be acknowledged as an in-character blindspot.)

Thus, whoever could persuade heroes they were the lesser threat would win; and only the Borg have displayed this ability. Daleks would probably bark "YOU WILL COM-PLY!" at them. They have, however, attempted subterfuge before in order to use the Doctor to their advantage; so even there we can't rule out either side.

Daleks may have slightly more advanced weapons, as seen with the Crucible; if so, that might tip the balance in their favour. But then, the Borg would definitely attempt to acquire this advantage for themselves as rapidly as possible, based on their MO.

I doubt we would ever see complete death/assimilation for either side. If we assume majority dead/assimilated counts, and that Time Wars will always eventually form feedback loops where one side grows stronger and alters history so they have an ever-more decisive advantage, then 5/5 each - although perhaps I missed a feat that would tip the balance?

#26 Posted by The_Imperator (1929 posts) - - Show Bio

  • Borg drones are treated as disposable, while Dalek troops appear like individually-impressive tanks. Advantage: Daleks. But it is unclear whether this would continue, were they not to outnumber the Dalek forces. (I can't manage to estimate relative numbers, troop-wise.)
  • Both races are vulnerable to heros, but their ethos of mindless conformity does not produce them. Borg have, however, allied with Federation heroes against greater threats. Advantage: Borg.
  • Borg are often stated to be able to assimilate and adapt to anything. Advantage: Borg. However, this has no clearly-stated or obvious mechanical effects, and Daleks are observed to adapt their technology to circumstance.
  • Daleks could, perhaps, attempt to destroy the entire multiverse (except for themselves) a second time. Advantage: Daleks. However, this would presumably attract the attention of other civilizations (such as the Federation and Time Lords), who wish to keep existing.

So ultimately, it all depends on your weighing of these four factors. It is far from *obvious* that either is the technological or military superior.

Personally, I think the only weakness either displays are the luck, cunning and bravery common to heroes. This seems to have always destroyed their plans thus far, whenever it is encountered (one could definitely argue this is PIS, but it seems to be acknowledged as an in-character blindspot.)

Thus, whoever could persuade heroes they were the lesser threat would win; and only the Borg have displayed this ability. Daleks would probably bark "YOU WILL COM-PLY!" at them. They have, however, attempted subterfuge before in order to use the Doctor to their advantage; so even there we can't rule out either side.

Daleks may have slightly more advanced weapons, as seen with the Crucible; if so, that might tip the balance in their favour. But then, the Borg would definitely attempt to acquire this advantage for themselves as rapidly as possible, based on their MO.

I doubt we would ever see complete death/assimilation for either side. If we assume majority dead/assimilated counts, and that Time Wars will always eventually form feedback loops where one side grows stronger and alters history so they have an ever-more decisive advantage, then 5/5 each - although perhaps I missed a feat that would tip the balance?

Daleks can simply destroy the entire galaxy the Borg are in, while sitting happily inside the Time Vortex. Adaptation only works if the Borg can transmit information to the rest. If the Daleks are serious, planet busting missiles decimate the entire Borg collective.

Daleks also use nanites (Fire and Brimstone comic, episode Asylum of the Daleks), so there's no clear advantage that the Borg have from having nanites. Plus, the Daleks' whole shtick in the old series was that they'd spend years analyzing people before making a move. With their technology here, and the fact that the Dalek Time Controller(s) are acausal (audio Dark Eyes), they can basically spend years studying the Borg in what amounts to zero time. And then move to design a computer virus or something to wipe the Borg out.

#27 Posted by MugaSofer (9 posts) - - Show Bio

"Daleks can simply destroy the entire galaxy the Borg are in, while sitting happily inside the Time Vortex."

Daleks have never destroyed a galaxy, to my knowledge, and I can't recall them attacking from "inside the time vortex".

Perhaps you are referring the time-shifted Crucible? That does seem to have been much more powerful than anything else Daleks have accomplished. Perhaps because it was built by Time War Daleks/Davros.

Those Daleks were destroyed, of course, but Daleks from before and after have never displayed anywhere near such destructive abilities. They seem to default to death-rays and cloaked saucers. Dangerous, but not one-shotting-a-galaxy dangerous.

"Adaptation only works if the Borg can transmit information to the rest."

Yeah, I can't see adaptation being much of a threat. It's vague, but mostly seems to consist of shields "adapting" their frequencies during specific encounters.

"With their technology here, and the fact that the Dalek Time Controller(s) are acausal (audio Dark Eyes), they can basically spend years studying the Borg in what amounts to zero time. And then move to design a computer virus or something to wipe the Borg out."

I haven't listened to Dark Eyes, but the Borg can also timetravel.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "they can basically spend years studying the Borg in what amounts to zero time." Do you mean they could send back tactical information to the present? That they can insert themselves into Borg history for research purposes? That they could spend years analyzing whatever they learn from first contact?

#28 Posted by Cjdavis103 (9435 posts) - - Show Bio

@mugasofer:

no offense but just stop

the dalkes are a high type 3 maybe type 4 civalasation their empire spans Galaxys as in multiple where as the borg are only foun in one galaxy

hell they fought the god damn Time lords for crying out loud thee borg are simply out matched

#29 Edited by DarthDalek (225 posts) - - Show Bio

Ends in sex.

#30 Edited by The_Imperator (1929 posts) - - Show Bio

Daleks have never destroyed a galaxy, to my knowledge, and I can't recall them attacking from "inside the time vortex".

Audio Apocalypse Element, a weapon they had access to during that point in time was able to destroy galaxies. Ate space/time at a rate of 8 lyrs/s IIRC.

Also, according to the novel Alien Bodies, Time Lords casually deconstruct galaxies as trivial actions. Daleks were equal to Time Lords during the Time War.

Although this is assuming that the Dalek Empire itself is fighting here, and not the piddling of ships that the crazy!Emperor Dalek had in Parting of the Ways.

Perhaps you are referring the time-shifted Crucible? That does seem to have been much more powerful than anything else Daleks have accomplished. Perhaps because it was built by Time War Daleks/Davros.

No, I'm referring to actually sitting in the Time Vortex. They did it in the audio Time of the Daleks, Juggernauts, and because of the Dalek device in the Next Doctor and the Magnetrons that they have (Day of the Daleks, Journey's End), we know they can transport stuff through the Vortex, and from within it. They have Vortex ships (episodes The Chase, Dalek Invasion of Earth, audio Time of the Daleks), so we know they can sit around in the Vortex.

Those Daleks were destroyed, of course, but Daleks from before and after have never displayed anywhere near such destructive abilities. They seem to default to death-rays and cloaked saucers. Dangerous, but not one-shotting-a-galaxy dangerous.

Not one shotting, simply attacking lots of places at once. But yes, point, that's more Time War than anything else. So normal level Daleks then.

I haven't listened to Dark Eyes, but the Borg can also timetravel.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "they can basically spend years studying the Borg in what amounts to zero time." Do you mean they could send back tactical information to the present? That they can insert themselves into Borg history for research purposes? That they could spend years analyzing whatever they learn from first contact?

All of that. The Daleks love doing that, it's how they always act.

And ignoring research, if the Daleks really want to kill the Borg, they can, easily. Every warship planet busts (Asylum of the Daleks, Remembrance of the Daleks). They can casually hurl Borg ships into the Vortex (using a Dimension Vault or Magnetron) and let them get dissolved in the Time Vortex like the Cybermen in The Next Doctor. Or simply blow up all the Borg ships. Against any fully fledged Dalek Empire, the Borg have no chance.

#31 Edited by MugaSofer (9 posts) - - Show Bio

no offense but just stop

the dalkes are a high type 3 maybe type 4 civalasation

A number which is ... meaningless, to my limited knowledge? Unless you mean Kardashev rating - which the Doctor has used - in which case, they flatly are not Kardashev 3 or 4.

Maybe Time War Daleks; they have never displayed such abilities onscreen during what we saw of the Time War, but they were, after all, winning the Time War. But then, if they did grow much more powerful offscreen, they promptly lost it again.

hell they fought the god damn Time lords for crying out loud

Who have pretty well-defined abilities, that we've seen on screen. Bending space-time, shapeshifting, psychic powers ... all fairly common in the Trek universe, AFAICT. Regeneration is more impressive, but even then, the Federation (not the Borg) have pulled it off multiple times.

Time Lords are not gods, and fighting them does not imply omnipotence. Who would be a much duller show if it did, considering the protagonist is a rogue Time Lord.

#32 Edited by The_Imperator (1929 posts) - - Show Bio

@mugasofer said:

Who have pretty well-defined abilities, that we've seen on screen. Bending space-time, shapeshifting, psychic powers ... all fairly common in the Trek universe, AFAICT. Regeneration is more impressive, but even then, the Federation (not the Borg) have pulled it off multiple times.

Time Lords are not gods, and fighting them does not imply omnipotence. Who would be a much duller show if it did, considering the protagonist is a rogue Time Lord.

Rewriting physics across the entire universe, being able to slice up and dice space/time and disconnect it from reality. Cut off time lines from reality and shove them into pocket dimensions. Erasing entire civilizations from reality. Looping and Time locking civilizations. Etc. Time Lords are more powerful than pretty much anything in Trek short of maybe the Q (there are good arguments both ways), and a couple EU races.

Actually, a show about only them would be really cool. CIA black OPs on random planets, political infighting, murder mysteries, etc. It'd be cool to have a well written show about Gallifrey itself. Or at least a book/comic series.

#33 Edited by MugaSofer (9 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_imperator: Plenty of Trek civs - heck, even the Federation at their most powerful - can "Cut off time lines from reality and shove them into pocket dimensions. Erasing entire civilizations from reality. Looping and Time locking civilizations."

On the other hand, it has been implied that Time Lords were somehow regulating both travel between parallel dimensions and "fixed points". Which, now that you say it, I have no idea how that's even possible.

So ... 6 or 7/10 to the Daleks, I guess.

"Actually, a show about only them would be really cool. CIA black OPs on random planets, political infighting, murder mysteries, etc. It'd be cool to have a well written show about Gallifrey itself. Or at least a book/comic series."

It would be pretty cool, at that. Done well, mind.

Time Lord non-interference has always been portrayed as moral cowardice (unlike the Prime Directive), but using the CIA would solve that nicely.

#34 Posted by SheenLantern (6656 posts) - - Show Bio

Borg

#35 Posted by The_Imperator (1929 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_imperator: Plenty of Trek civs - heck, even the Federation at their most powerful - can "Cut off time lines from reality and shove them into pocket dimensions. Erasing entire civilizations from reality. Looping and Time locking civilizations."

What? Evidence of this in the show? Evidence of any of that on a universal level?

#36 Edited by MugaSofer (9 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_imperator said:

@mugasofer said:

@the_imperator: Plenty of Trek civs - heck, even the Federation at their most powerful - can "Cut off time lines from reality and shove them into pocket dimensions. Erasing entire civilizations from reality. Looping and Time locking civilizations."

What? Evidence of this in the show? Evidence of any of that on a universal level?

You want a list of every time a character in Star Trek has traveled through time?

I ... don't have one of those. Wikipedia kind of does, but it's both lengthy and incomplete. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Star_Trek_time_travel_episodes)

However, just based on what I have personally seen ...

  • The TOS-era Enterprise could travel back to observe modern-day Earth for historical purposes (Assignment: Earth), and spent much of the episode mentioning over and over that they could erase the entire Federation from history by precipitating a nuclear exchange.
  • When the crew of Deep Space Nine were transported into the past (Trials and Tribble-ations) using an alien artifact in their possession (activated as part of a complex Klingon plot), the were pointedly informed by the Federation's time police that time travel is frowned upon. The EU has these time agents performing quite elaborate timeline restoration and repair.
  • The latest series of Star Trek films are based around the premise that someone changed history, splitting off a pocket dimension, using Federation superweapons. The writers have stated that this universe "split off", as a character in the first film briefly mentions is physically possible; but this isn't actually stated onscreen.
  • A Borg Sphere traveled back in time - as a last-ditch defense - (Star Trek: First Contact) to enslave humanity before they could achieve spaceflight and form the Federation. This plan was seemingly successful (Earth was genuinely enslaved and the Federation erased from history), but the Enterprise-E survivied (because technobabble), travelled to the past, and destroyed the ship.
  • Voyager encountered a starship (or ... timeship?) that was using a weapon designed to "push civilizations out of the timestream" (Year of Hell), and quite enthusiastically at that. Voyager modified their shields to resist changes to the history. The aliens were themselves erased, but in fairness, their plan (to restore their own civilization after a war) was strongly implied to be counterproductive from the start.
  • Oh, and while Googling the episode title for Year of Hell, I learned that the Borg - all Borg, presumably - can receive transmissions from the future (Timeless). The transmission was sent using a stolen Borg temporal transmitter (!) to Seven of Nine, which was noted to violate the "Temporal Prime Directive" and severely irritate the time police who had to clean up afterward.
#37 Posted by AdamAnouer (239 posts) - - Show Bio

Daleks, granted the Borg can adapt to various types of injuries they haven't shown any ability to adapt to total and utter extermination. I'd say the Daleks win because they are far more ruthless and aggressive while the Borg's plans typically take a fair amount of time to take effect by which points I'd suspect the Daleks would have won.

#38 Posted by The_Imperator (1929 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_imperator said:

@mugasofer said:

@the_imperator: Plenty of Trek civs - heck, even the Federation at their most powerful - can "Cut off time lines from reality and shove them into pocket dimensions. Erasing entire civilizations from reality. Looping and Time locking civilizations."

What? Evidence of this in the show? Evidence of any of that on a universal level?

You want a list of every time a character in Star Trek has traveled through time?

I ... don't have one of those. Wikipedia kind of does, but it's both lengthy and incomplete. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Star_Trek_time_travel_episodes)

However, just based on what I have personally seen ...

  • The TOS-era Enterprise could travel back to observe modern-day Earth for historical purposes (Assignment: Earth), and spent much of the episode mentioning over and over that they could erase the entire Federation from history by precipitating a nuclear exchange.
  • When the crew of Deep Space Nine were transported into the past (Trials and Tribble-ations) using an alien artifact in their possession (activated as part of a complex Klingon plot), the were pointedly informed by the Federation's time police that time travel is frowned upon. The EU has these time agents performing quite elaborate timeline restoration and repair.
  • The latest series of Star Trek films are based around the premise that someone changed history, splitting off a pocket dimension, using Federation superweapons. The writers have stated that this universe "split off", as a character in the first film briefly mentions is physically possible; but this isn't actually stated onscreen.
  • A Borg Sphere traveled back in time - as a last-ditch defense - (Star Trek: First Contact) to enslave humanity before they could achieve spaceflight and form the Federation. This plan was seemingly successful (Earth was genuinely enslaved and the Federation erased from history), but the Enterprise-E survivied (because technobabble), travelled to the past, and destroyed the ship.
  • Voyager encountered a starship (or ... timeship?) that was using a weapon designed to "push civilizations out of the timestream" (Year of Hell), and quite enthusiastically at that. Voyager modified their shields to resist changes to the history. The aliens were themselves erased, but in fairness, their plan (to restore their own civilization after a war) was strongly implied to be counterproductive from the start.
  • Oh, and while Googling the episode title for Year of Hell, I learned that the Borg - all Borg, presumably - can receive transmissions from the future (Timeless). The transmission was sent using a stolen Borg temporal transmitter (!) to Seven of Nine, which was noted to violate the "Temporal Prime Directive" and severely irritate the time police who had to clean up afterward.
  • And this matters how? Time Lords push a button on Gallifrey, and your entire species literally cannot exist, because physics doesn't allow it.
  • I love the Department of Temporal Investigations novels, they are amazing. However, this DS9 time travel thing is also nowhere near Time Lord level. Time Lords can casually redirect short range transporter signals across time and half way across the universe, with a button push. One little device means pretty much diddly squat in terms of impressiveness to them
  • They did not create a pocket dimension, they created a separate time line. Those are two different things. Also, IIRC correctly, the new Trek time line was already its own separate universe, the red Matter black hole just happened to send the main Trek people there instead of the past of their own universe. Time Lords can also specifically alter things to prevent creation of alternate time lines through time travel.
  • And this matters why? You still have not come up with anything, other than the Bajoran artifact, that is impressive. Heck, the Time Lords literally set up the universe so that time travel like you're suggesting can almost never actually affect things. Sure, it may appear to work, but after a while (meta-time, not in universe time), history bends itself back to how it was before.
  • Yes, that's the one impressive Star Trek thing here. Good thing that Time Lord tech pretty much prevents being erased in most situations.
  • If they have no future, there's no one to send the message.

Basically, anything Trek civs have done (save the Q), Time Lords have done better. And Time War Daleks are equal to the Time Lords. Daleks could literally turn on their shields to full, and just fly through every Borg ship, blowing them up. Or, as in the Doctor Who/Star Trek crossover comic (which, since Doctor who has no canon and it is officially licensed, counts for this debate) hack the Borg collective and shut it down. Cybermen in said comic were immune to assimilation, and even though Star Trek EU stuff isn't canon to Star Trek, unless other evidence comes out said Borg had no difference from TV show/movie Borg, so the feat should still be valid.

There is quite literally nothing that any Star Trek civilization, Future Federation included, can do to Time War Daleks or Time Lords.

And to keep this from being off topic, replace every instance of Time Lord with Time War Daleks, and the majority of that is still valid.

#39 Edited by MugaSofer (9 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_imperator: Obviously, the Federation would have lost the Time War (although it would be cool to watch before they were erased.) But those are some seriously inflated claims.

The thing about the Bajoran Sphere of Time is that it's really not all that impressive. It isn't widely publicised, but that Klingon could have used pretty much any warp-capable ship, if he knew how.

What matters about the incident is the DTI makes it clear that the Federation, and most other civilizations, are merely refraining from time travel (as much as that is ever possible) out of a (healthy?) fear of the consequences. (This point is repeated several times in the show.) Much like ... the Time Lords, in fact.

Now, the weapon from Year of Hell is genuinely impressive. It pretty much is the de-mat gun. The fact that Voyager could so easily adapt their shields into temporal ... shields ... does seem to lend a little credence to the "Borg could adapt to it" idea, although even the best-adapted shields can be overwhelmed.

We don't know how Time Lords worked to stabilize temporal and dimensional travel - we don't even know how successful they were, we are simply assured that things were better and are now worse - but it's pretty clear this required serious infrastructure.

There is nothing to imply anywhere that the Time Lords can just wave their hands and revise the laws of physics as they see fit, let alone use that as a weapon to selectively render their enemies "impossible". Quite the opposite, considering they have consistently failed to do so.

The notion that Daleks are capable of any of these feats is beyond preposterous. Have they been selectively hiding these godlike powers offscreen, even to the point of letting themselves be killed in droves rather than use them against the Doctor and his companions? Or the worlds they target, for that matter?

Daleks clearly can't "push a button on Gallifrey Skaaro, and your entire species literally cannot exist, because physics doesn't allow it", or "turn on their shields to full, and just fly through every Borg ship, blowing them up". They have never been portrayed as having abilities even vaguely like those.

They probably can mess with Transmat signals and resist assimilation, but that's not exactly groundbreaking in the Trek universe. Or the Whoniverse, for that matter.

#40 Edited by The_Imperator (1929 posts) - - Show Bio

@mugasofer said:

@the_imperator:

Now, the weapon from Year of Hell is genuinely impressive. It pretty much is the de-mat gun. The fact that Voyager could so easily adapt their shields into temporal ... shields ... does seem to lend a little credence to the "Borg could adapt to it" idea, although even the best-adapted shields can be overwhelmed.

That's the thing. Power is what Trek civilizations lack. The Time Lords, with a several billion year old power regulator that had never been updated, could match the entire energy output of the universe for several hours (The Three Doctors). And each Time Lord TARDIS has an Eye of Harmony in it, though not as powerful as the original.

The De-Mat gun doesn't actually erase things, so much as reconfigure the entire universe to be built the exact same way, but without the particles that make up the target. It leaves the memory of the target in tact, and the majority of things the target has done, but no target exists.

@mugasofer said:

We don't know how Time Lords worked to stabilize temporal and dimensional travel - we don't even know how successful they were, we are simply assured that things were better and are now worse - but it's pretty clear this required serious infrastructure.

What do you mean here? We do actually know. They used the Eye of Harmony, told reality to bend over and take it, and it did. Heck, a random Time Lord robot with a copy of the Eye of Harmony was able to convert every quark, photino, etc. in space (only outerspace, mind you, not on planets or within celestial objects) into entropic wormholes, destroying every spaceship in the universe. Time Lords codified the laws of physics, and invented the constants (Rassilon literally thought up general and special relativity's constants and forced reality to accept them with the Eye of Harmony). We know exactly how they did it.

@mugasofer said:

There is nothing to imply anywhere that the Time Lords can just wave their hands and revise the laws of physics as they see fit, let alone use that as a weapon to selectively render their enemies "impossible". Quite the opposite, considering they have consistently failed to do so.

Ummmm, here you go. Yes, Time Lords have waved their hands and changed physics, they just don't, because it's a lot of paperwork and bureaucracy to get through and do it. Also, they want to keep the universe functioning, since they're the reason it is how it is today.

In addition, the Doctor stated in Satan Pit that his people invented black holes. We see this done, literally, in the novel Infinity Doctors.

@mugasofer said:

The notion that Daleks are capable of any of these feats is beyond preposterous. Have they been selectively hiding these godlike powers offscreen, even to the point of letting themselves be killed in droves rather than use them against the Doctor and his companions? Or the worlds they target, for that matter?

They had it during the Time War, you know, the war that they were only able to fight because the Doctor screwed up, gave them several centuries without Time Lord intervention and with access to the sum total of Time Lord knowledge. We know from the novel Quantum Archangel and the audio Time of the Daleks that they had their own Eye of Harmony that meant physics changing and erasure couldn't affect them. They had Transduction Barriers and Vortex ships, and were able to match and nearly defeat the Time Lords, the guys who casually took apart entire galaxies as standard defensive measures. The guys whose ships are literally enslaved Cthulhu-esque monstrosities that work by shredding open dimensions and pulling them closed behind them. The Time Lords, the guys who can literally cut portions of the universe off and kick it away like a scab. The Daleks matched and nearly defeated them. The Daleks had to be that high up on the food chain.

@mugasofer said:

Daleks clearly can't "push a button on Gallifrey Skaaro, and your entire species literally cannot exist, because physics doesn't allow it", or "turn on their shields to full, and just fly through every Borg ship, blowing them up". They have never been portrayed as having abilities even vaguely like those.

They probably can mess with Transmat signals and resist assimilation, but that's not exactly groundbreaking in the Trek universe. Or the Whoniverse, for that matter.

Umm, yes they can. I posted an image, where a human and a Time Lord robot, on 53rd century Earth, were able to reality warp the entire universe. The Daleks, more intelligent than humans and much, much, much better resources, are going to be able to do the same. The show writer, RTD, and multiple characters in End of Time, talked about how the universe itself convulsed as the Time War happened, galaxies and civilizations gone and back in the blink of an eye. Time itself breaking to the point of not flowing in a linear fashion thanks to the damage. The Daleks survived this, and nearly won. They are able to do effectively anything Time Lords can do, save De-Mat gun stuff and anti-time stuff.

And we're getting off topic here. If we continue this, we should probably start a new thread for this argument.

Back on topic, Time War era Daleks stomp the Borg, NDP and immediately pre-Time War Daleks stomp the Borg, and the actual good, close fight that could go either way would be around the era of the Fourth through Seventh Doctors.

Cybermen lol!stomped the entire Trek galaxy in Assimilation^2. Now, while the comics are not canon to Trek, they are not depicted as being any weaker than the normal universe. In fact, the show is canon for the comics, but not the other way around. So Cybermen, immune to assimilation and able to stomp the entire Trek galaxy, are weaker than Daleks, almost regardless of era (early Daleks are weaker). Daleks should be able to hold assimilation with their own nanotechnology (comic Fire and Brimstone and episode Asylum of the Daleks). And remote hacking, one single Dalek being able to download the entire internet into itself. As a collective, their hacking and processing powers are going to be astronomical.

#41 Posted by Dextersinister (6163 posts) - - Show Bio

Borg inevitably win when the Daleks place a few captured Borgs within arms reach of a console that lets you destroy all Daleks.

#42 Edited by The_Imperator (1929 posts) - - Show Bio

@dextersinister said:

Borg inevitably win when the Daleks place a few captured Borgs within arms reach of a console that lets you destroy all Daleks.

When, pray tell, did they ever do this? You mean in Journey's End, where the captured prisoners didn't escape till AFTER the console was used? Used by two people who popped in in a TARDIS that was not expected to be operational, and only after Davros' electric shock had seemingly knocked out the person who would go on to do it. Oh, and you had an omniscient Dalek subtly directing time so that it would happen:

DOCTOR: You're so unique the timelines were converging on you. Human being with a Time Lord brain.

DAVROS: But you promised me, Dalek Caan. Why did you not foresee this?

DOCTOR: Oh, I think he did. Something's been manipulating the timelines for ages, getting Donna Noble to the right place at the right time.

CAAN: This would always have happened. I only helped, Doctor.

:P :P

#43 Edited by Dextersinister (6163 posts) - - Show Bio
#44 Edited by The_Imperator (1929 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_imperator:

Yes then, the Daleks are like Lemmings

What does this even mean? That they follow orders? By that logic, the Borg are even more like lemmings, since they are a hive mind. Or are you suspicious of the fact that the Supreme Dalek installed a control panel in his "office" that allowed him easy access to all Dalek systems in a place that couldn't be hacked without access to it. Something no one, but the woman thought killed by Davros, had.

#45 Edited by Dextersinister (6163 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_imperator: You know none of that changes the fact that the Daleks brought prisoners to this place.

Like you said bring prisoners into a room with a console that can kill all Daleks.

#46 Posted by The_Imperator (1929 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_imperator: You know none of that changes the fact that the Daleks brought prisoners to this place.

Like you said bring prisoners into a room with a console that can kill all Daleks.

But... said prisoners couldn't get out. I don't see what you're trying to say here, as Daleks don't normally take prisoners anywhere near their control areas, save for that one instance of Davros gloating. Why would they have any reason to bring Borg into their control room?

#47 Edited by Dextersinister (6163 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_imperator:

But... said prisoners couldn't get out.

Prisoners escape all the time, you don't have the Nuke launchers in your prisons.

Why would they have any reason to bring Borg into their control room?

show-off,gloat, desire to end themselves

why do Daleks do the stupid things they do? plot but we need to pretend that isn't a motivation.

#48 Edited by The_Imperator (1929 posts) - - Show Bio

@dextersinister: But, they've never done it, ever, to any other random race they've come across. Why start now? There's no precedent.

Also, Daleks fought and nearly defeated the Time Lords, they probably know how to contain them.

#50 Posted by MugaSofer (9 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_imperator:

Now, the weapon from Year of Hell is genuinely impressive. It pretty much is the de-mat gun. The fact that Voyager could so easily adapt their shields into temporal ... shields ... does seem to lend a little credence to the "Borg could adapt to it" idea, although even the best-adapted shields can be overwhelmed.

That's the thing. Power is what Trek civilizations lack. The Time Lords, with a several billion year old power regulator that had never been updated, could match the entire energy output of the universe for several hours (The Three Doctors). And each Time Lord TARDIS has an Eye of Harmony in it, though not as powerful as the original.

Well, yeah. All the Time Lord's most impressive tech were artifacts from their highly-advanced past, right? They are supposed to be decadent.

The De-Mat gun doesn't actually erase things, so much as reconfigure the entire universe to be built the exact same way, but without the particles that make up the target. It leaves the memory of the target in tact, and the majority of things the target has done, but no target exists.

You're right, the De-Mat gun is actually not quite as impressive. It's been mass-produced at least once, though.

@mugasofer said:

We don't know how Time Lords worked to stabilize temporal and dimensional travel - we don't even know how successful they were, we are simply assured that things were better and are now worse - but it's pretty clear this required serious infrastructure.

What do you mean here? We do actually know. They used the Eye of Harmony, told reality to bend over and take it, and it did. Heck, a random Time Lord robot with a copy of the Eye of Harmony was able to convert every quark, photino, etc. in space (only outerspace, mind you, not on planets or within celestial objects) into entropic wormholes, destroying every spaceship in the universe. Time Lords codified the laws of physics, and invented the constants (Rassilon literally thought up general and special relativity's constants and forced reality to accept them with the Eye of Harmony). We know exactly how they did it. [gives link]

... well, damn. I did not know that. I knew the Eye was involved, but then the Eye powers all timelord tech. Guess I was flatly wrong there.

That ... is much more powerful than they seemed on the show. I guess because they had forgotten the location of the Eye of Harmony?

In addition, the Doctor stated in Satan Pit that his people invented black holes. We see this done, literally, in the novel Infinity Doctors.

Well, gee. I was pretty sure that was a reference to the Eye of Harmony, and it's usually referred to as such whenever people quote it. But now ...

They had it during the Time War, you know, the war that they were only able to fight because the Doctor screwed up, gave them several centuries without Time Lord intervention and with access to the sum total of Time Lord knowledge. We know from the novel Quantum Archangel and the audio Time of the Daleks that they had their own Eye of Harmony that meant physics changing and erasure couldn't affect them. They had Transduction Barriers and Vortex ships, and were able to match and nearly defeat the Time Lords, the guys who casually took apart entire galaxies as standard defensive measures. The guys whose ships are literally enslaved Cthulhu-esque monstrosities that work by shredding open dimensions and pulling them closed behind them. The Time Lords, the guys who can literally cut portions of the universe off and kick it away like a scab. The Daleks matched and nearly defeated them. The Daleks had to be that high up on the food chain.

OK, I am now deeply confused as to the nature of the Eye - I thought it was just a standard black-hole generator - but in any case, they lost this godlike power at the end of the Time War, right?

You're absolutely right. I had not read that, and was going off the depictions of the Time War on the show - galaxies disappearing/reappearing, universes convulsing and all that due to time travel and the occasional superweapon. I was wrong about this, it seems.

And we're getting off topic here. If we continue this, we should probably start a new thread for this argument.

Back on topic, Time War era Daleks stomp the Borg, NDP and immediately pre-Time War Daleks stomp the Borg, and the actual good, close fight that could go either way would be around the era of the Fourth through Seventh Doctors.

I'm still not sure that NDP and other non-Time-War Daleks stomp the Borg, but maybe you have feats for them as well?

Cybermen lol!stomped the entire Trek galaxy in Assimilation^2. Now, while the comics are not canon to Trek, they are not depicted as being any weaker than the normal universe. In fact, the show is canon for the comics, but not the other way around.

Well, yeah, I guess they were depicted weaker than the normal universe. Because the Trek galaxy is pretty diverse power-wise, and there are quite a few physical gods around that would curbstomp the Cybermen. (And would, if they tried to assimilate the entire Galaxy.)

I think it's fair to say the entire Trek galaxy had a dose of PIS that day, to allow for a more epic plot.

So Cybermen, immune to assimilation and able to stomp the entire Trek galaxy, are weaker than Daleks, almost regardless of era (early Daleks are weaker).

Of course, this does somewhat depend on the era the Cybermen are from as well. I know there are people who were very put out by the Doomsday curbstomp of the Cybusmen, and hoping for a rematch with Neil Gaiman's merged uber-Cybermen.

Who pretty much are the Borg painted silver, come to think.

Daleks should be able to hold assimilation with their own nanotechnology (comic Fire and Brimstone and episode Asylum of the Daleks).

Probably, although I wouldn't be surprised if a few Daleks were assimilated after capture. Of course, that would require first capturing a Dalek, which is hard.

And remote hacking, one single Dalek being able to download the entire internet into itself. As a collective, their hacking and processing powers are going to be astronomical.

The Borg have been hacked before. It was irritating, but it doesn't seem to have done any long-term damage.

(One can't help wondering, though - if Borg could really adapt to hacking, why haven't they adapted to this? If anything, they've gotten easier to hack as time went on.)

CAAN: This would always have happened. I only helped, Doctor.

That quote ... doesn't seem to undercut Dexter's argument, really. Kind of the opposite.