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#151 Posted by God_Spawn (37560 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis: I said Skaar, when did Daken fight Rulk? Did I miss something? Regardless, if they worked they worked which is my point and if it worked I would be more inclined to say so will their other abilities, otherwise it wouldn't in the first place of Wolverine could have smelled them and he was fighting Skaar and got him to calm down eventually before fighting again. But I don't think they are a deciding factor here in a regular Vine ruled fight.

It would work on her because he's done it Wolverine and someone with precognition that move much faster than them and even Spidey said he barely had his head removed judging by the speed of the attack. Senses in theory should work on it but Logan has fallen victim to it and I feel if Spider-Man almost got killed then Laura is susceptible to it.

If it's a matter of experience and quantity of fights that makes one the victor, then clearly Daken.

Which is where I am trying to come from. Their fights against each other weren't really good indicators but outside of them I feel Daken has done better. Her best skill feat that I recall is beating LDS and beating a holding back Wolverine who said nothing to her like he did Daken and required more training and a special weapon to beat. Daken then followed it up with other fights and feats to go along with it. X has been around longer than Daken and by a few years too. She has had chances to face her own skilled opponents but doesn't have the extensive track record to say where she truly sits. Daken, on the other hand does. Otherwise, to me it is just speculation.

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#152 Posted by lykopis (10753 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn:

Skaar -- not Rulk. Correction.

Although you say X-23 has been around longer, she was never put up against heavy-hitters and not because she couldn't handle it, but because the writers kept her in a high school with other teenagers. So -- I can't go along those reasons for giving Daken the win. You haven't proven to me that Daken could use those extra powers to win a fight against Laura -- and I can't rely on their recent match-ups because its post 2007. If Skaar, Spiderman, Hawkeye, Silver Samuari etc --- if they all went up against Laura and won, then I would be following you quite easily. And while you say LDS is only one fight --- I put to you, that I can hold that up as proof that Laura can hold her own against heavy-hitters.

Like I said --- its tough. Your points haven't convinced me to lean towards Daken -- but I haven't convinced myself that I should lean towards Laura. Post 20007 Laura would be more easier for me to throw into the mix to argue in her favour but since I can't I am presently at a standstill. Daken pheromone ability has yet to be proven to make a difference when it comes to Laura outside of a strong argument he can mask it like he did to his father. But he does not have the ability to alter her emotions like he did other adversaries which made many fights go in his favour. Laura not having that power might make the difference when taking on Skaar and friends, but when up against Daken --- not so much.

She's quicker, less inclined to be emotional and has no daddy issues. Daken hates her because she is his father's clone --- therefore potentially better than him -- of which Romulus had told him -- Wolverine is the better of the two. Laura really couldn't care about him, outside of recognizing a dangerous opponent. Outside of that -- he means nothing to to her.

#153 Posted by God_Spawn (37560 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis: Daken has only used his pheromones in 1 fight that I know of and as I said before, hardly a factor here unless going all out which is not the case. I know I keep saying they will work and if they worked by masking his scent they will work for other reasons. They were affected which is the point. Whether you think they won't or I think isn't a factor here, so I'm going to leave it at that, ok?

His other times in battle he seemed to have stopped or has not used them. Like against Skaar, he used them to calm him down but then used his speed and agility + m claws to beat the big kid down when Skaar got angry cause someone called him stupid, that was it. He didn't use them against Wolverine in a fight nor did he against Deadpool. He used his skill and disappearing tricks though which is another thing. His attack isn't teleporting and leaves no marking after and the pattern might be eventually be noticeable but he only needs to do it once or twice to win. Laura can't counter it anyway unless prolonged use and that is just a guess on your part. Since she does not have Spider-Man level speed or precog she will be vulnerable to it for say those 1-2 times and that is all he needs. And Kinney has 1 victory over 1 highly skilled comparable, Daken has more and an admittance by Logan which for me is enough to say he beats her.

Anyways, this is my 4th post repeating everything and you haven't convinced me Kinney takes with any more effort than I originally thought. And since I haven't convinced you otherwise that one or the other takes it and I am not bringing anything new to the table so I'm just going to agree to disagree and leave it at that.

Thanks for the debate though.

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#154 Posted by healed1337 (16 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn: @god_spawn said:

@lykopis: I said Skaar, when did Daken fight Rulk? Did I miss something? Regardless, if they worked they worked which is my point and if it worked I would be more inclined to say so will their other abilities, otherwise it wouldn't in the first place of Wolverine could have smelled them and he was fighting Skaar and got him to calm down eventually before fighting again. But I don't think they are a deciding factor here in a regular Vine ruled fight.

It would work on her because he's done it Wolverine and someone with precognition that move much faster than them and even Spidey said he barely had his head removed judging by the speed of the attack. Senses in theory should work on it but Logan has fallen victim to it and I feel if Spider-Man almost got killed then Laura is susceptible to it.

If it's a matter of experience and quantity of fights that makes one the victor, then clearly Daken.

Which is where I am trying to come from. Their fights against each other weren't really good indicators but outside of them I feel Daken has done better. Her best skill feat that I recall is beating LDS and beating a holding back Wolverine who said nothing to her like he did Daken and required more training and a special weapon to beat. Daken then followed it up with other fights and feats to go along with it. X has been around longer than Daken and by a few years too. She has had chances to face her own skilled opponents but doesn't have the extensive track record to say where she truly sits. Daken, on the other hand does. Otherwise, to me it is just speculation.

If you're going by 2007 when this thread was created, X-23 had beaten Spider-Man in Marvel Team Up by then, although she took him by surprise and it was mostly played for comedy. This thread was created before X-23 fought Lady Death Strike. If you're arguing that Daken would probably win back then, I completely agree with you.

If we're talking about now however, she's already fought Daken to a standstill on her own, and did better against the mutated children in the Weapon X lab when they worked together. Since then, she's also taken on four venom powered clones of herself and all sorts of demonic monsters (without an active healing factor by the way) in the Venom crossover. She defeated a cosmically powered demon king and knocked out an elder of the universe. She fought a dragon and convinced it to stand down. Along with the rest of the Avengers Academy, she fought a series of superpowered teenagers when she was depowered and dying of Adamantium poisoning. She tackled Rockslide during the Jean Grey School/Avengers Academy football game, which is an impressive strength feat. She's had a good number of feats in the last year that outshine killing Lady Deathstrike.

Outside of her feats, she's practiced a lot on robots (with Finesse, who learns to fight the exact same way Taskmaster does), had sparring matches with different Avengers including Tigra and is often shown working out in her cameos.

I'd give her a decent advantage if your talking about modern X-23 vs modern Daken.

#155 Posted by nightwing737 (1073 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm gonna go for X-23

#156 Edited by lykopis (10753 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn: Agreed we both didn't bring anything new to the table and so we are just repeating ourselves -- so since we are both in the same rut with opposing views and failing to convince the other, then I agree to disagree.

Romulus said Wolverine is the better of the two. Considering he was the one pulling the strings between the two - its enough for me to believe Logan is and therefore, free game for Laura. If all it took for Daken to win is two quick moves, then it would have been shown on panel with his interactions with Laura. I can claim Laura unleashes "Eau du Trigger" scent and goes all nasty on him. So -- all conjecture.

(edited because my ability to string words together is taking a nose drive this afternoon)

Nope --- thank you.

#157 Edited by God_Spawn (37560 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis:

Romulus said Wolverine is the better of the two. Considering he was the one pulling the strings between the two - its enough for me to believe Logan is and therefore, free game for Laura. If all it took for Daken to win is two quick moves, then it would have been shown on panel with his interactions with Laura. I can claim Laura unleashes "Eau du Trigger" scent and goes all nasty on him. So -- all conjecture.

I think he could have, he has done the move in character enough times for an in character win once or twice, but by the plot powers at be, the writers of the story didn't let him or even attempt to use his pheromones either. So it could be chalked up to the writing. Lots of things happen in canon but isn't always true. You know this quite well for being a Wolverine fan when most people don't even let him use his skill anymore or think he is even fast enough to dodge bullets and 75% of people just think he is a dumbass running into fights. It's just the writers wanting to show off something else like his healing and claws. The fight in Collision was back and forth with Daken getting off an extra blow or two on Kinney before they fell from the roof and the rest was off panel with both cut up at the beginning of next issue. Personally, I think Daken was underwritten and strange things happen and Laura is no exception like the Punisher fending her off with cuestick (Loeb -_-). I love Frank as a character but even I had to laugh at that notion.

And good debate anyway. Even if it was fruitless on both our ends lol.

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#158 Posted by darktiger (4402 posts) - - Show Bio

Going for daken his feats are better then x-23's

#159 Posted by lykopis (10753 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn: How about when Frank steam rolled over Wolverine? lol -- ugh -- agreed with everything you said -- Laura and Daken are my babies -- I will always love them.

#160 Edited by bangbangbitch (6 posts) - - Show Bio

hasnt this been done

#161 Edited by dondave (35901 posts) - - Show Bio

@bangbangbitch: You bumped a 7 month old thread to ask if this thread has been done before?

#162 Edited by Cooldes (3993 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave: in his defense(for bumping), it is a pretty good fight