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#101 Posted by CaptainRodgers (1656 posts) - - Show Bio

Daken owns her ,i already said that but i'd like to reiterate
#102 Posted by The Impersonator (5075 posts) - - Show Bio

I would definitely say Daken. I may not be a big fan of him. But he's cunning and interesting.

#103 Edited by SlimJ87D (9355 posts) - - Show Bio

I honestly think this is a toss up.  
-I feel that Daken has his Phermones and more skill (he was trained better IMO) 
- X-23 is more durable thanks to her adamantium and she also has weapons in her feet.  
 
I say 50/50 depending on the circumstances and what they are fighting for.  
 
For some reason when I read X-23 wins, I feel doubtful. When I read Daken wins I feel just as doubtful. That's why I give this a 50/50 or I mostly feel that there are too many Wolverine clones allowed to live, one of them should have died a long time ago. 

#104 Posted by Ferro Vida (34675 posts) - - Show Bio
@SlimJ87D said:
 there are too many Wolverine clones allowed to live, one of them should have died a long time ago.  "
QFT 
 
However, I say that Daken wins an easy majority. X-23's only real advantage over Wolverine is that I believe she heals faster than him. She is not as skilled as him, or as strong, or faster. Daken is quite possibly a better fighter than Logan and has actually moved fast enough to tag him without Logan even seeing it happen, and this was before he had his pheromones (or at least had control of them). Using Wolverine as a measuring stick, I would say Daken is the clear winner.
#105 Posted by Mercy_ (92632 posts) - - Show Bio
@SlimJ87D said:
" I honestly think this is a toss up.  -I feel that Daken has his Phermones and more skill (he was trained better IMO) - X-23 is more durable thanks to her adamantium and she also has weapons in her feet.   I say 50/50 depending on the circumstances and what they are fighting for.   For some reason when I read X-23 wins, I feel doubtful. When I read Daken wins I feel just as doubtful. That's why I give this a 50/50 or I mostly feel that there are too many Wolverine clones allowed to live, one of them should have died a long time ago.  "
The only thing adamantium about Laura is her claws. And even then, they aren't pure adamantium, they're only laced with it.  
 
9/10 Daken wins. And the 1 time he doesn't is pure PIS. 
 
@Ferro Vida said:
 However, I say that Daken wins an easy majority. X-23's only real advantage over Wolverine is that I believe she heals faster than him. She is not as skilled as him, or as strong, or faster. Daken is quite possibly a better fighter than Logan and has actually moved fast enough to tag him without Logan even seeing it happen, and this was before he had his pheromones (or at least had control of them). Using Wolverine as a measuring stick, I would say Daken is the clear winner. "
She also has the claws in her feet. She's also been shown to surpass him in training exercises at Weapon X IIRC. Which is irrelevant, really as he should take her in a straight up fight.  
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#106 Posted by dreb101 (29 posts) - - Show Bio

X-23 would win 

#107 Posted by CaptainRodgers (1656 posts) - - Show Bio

Daken stomps , also X-23 Is Wolverine's clone not his son...i think
#108 Posted by Mercy_ (92632 posts) - - Show Bio
@dreb101 said:
" X-23 would win  "
How? 
 
@CaptainRodgers said:
" Daken stomps , also X-23 Is Wolverine's clone not his son...i think "
She's his clone...kind of. Genetically speaking, I think she's more of a sister than an actual clone.
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#109 Posted by hydrabob (14977 posts) - - Show Bio

*waits for the next X-23 to come out so we can put this to rest*

#110 Posted by Supreme Cosmic (764 posts) - - Show Bio
@hydrabob said:
" *waits for the next X-23 to come out so we can put this to rest* "
Fine!  X-23 wins
#111 Posted by dreb101 (29 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Dark Huntress: OK  Pheromones wont affect her she is immune. Also no more marasama claws for Daken. She did kill lady death-strike. Her claws give her an edge and I see x-23 as a better fighter, Also training with the real X-men and not some dark "wannabes" makes her a bigger challenge.  
#112 Posted by hydrabob (14977 posts) - - Show Bio
@Supreme Cosmic: hahaha no Daken and X-23 are finally going to fight in her next book
#113 Posted by The Hooded Hero (960 posts) - - Show Bio
@erik said:
"
Daken has trouble with Wolverine and X-23 can beat him pretty quick for one. She has the advantage of adamantium claws, is likely faster, more agile, has a surprise in each foot, has a faster healing factor than Wolverine, has better control of her emotions, and at the very least is on par with Daken as far as use of strategy. Though I would say she may be better. 
"

Doesn't Daken have adamantium claws too? 

I don't know this would be a close one. I think that X 23 has better training that Daken. Being a clone of Wolverine instead of an actual relation. I think she would think more like Wolverine which gives her an advance. 
 
X 23 would win.
#114 Posted by God_Spawn (37381 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Hooded Hero:
Daken has never had adamantium claws. He had the muramasa claws bonded once but that was it.
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#115 Posted by The Hooded Hero (960 posts) - - Show Bio
@SlimJ87D:
@god_spawn said:
"@The Hooded Hero: Daken has never had adamantium claws. He had the muramasa claws bonded once but that was it. "

What's Muramasa? So lost.
 
Daken is not a clone.
#116 Edited by God_Spawn (37381 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Hooded Hero:
a blade forged from wolverine's soul, it cancles out healing factors. Daken had fragments bonded to his lower claws and was beastly. He beat the sh!t out of Skaar when he had them.
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#117 Posted by SGU823 (121 posts) - - Show Bio

A tie maybe? Why not?

#118 Posted by Erik (31695 posts) - - Show Bio

No. Not a tie.  

#119 Edited by k4tzm4n (36468 posts) - - Show Bio
@Erik
You're right, it's not a tie.  X-23 loses ;)
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#120 Posted by God_Spawn (37381 posts) - - Show Bio

Lot's of X-23 threads being made or bumped this week.

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#121 Posted by Erik (31695 posts) - - Show Bio
@k4tzm4n said:
@Erik: You're right.  X-23 loses ;)
X-23 SOLOS!
#122 Posted by Morpheus_ (29873 posts) - - Show Bio
@Erik said:
@k4tzm4n said:
@Erik: You're right.  X-23 loses ;)
X-23 SOLOS!
LOL.
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#123 Posted by k4tzm4n (36468 posts) - - Show Bio

The only thing X-23 solos is your attention and love. 
 
 
 
And Lady Deathstrike...
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#124 Posted by Erik (31695 posts) - - Show Bio
@k4tzm4n said:
The only thing X-23 solos is your attention and love.    And Lady Deathstrike...
Marvel has promised her to me!
#125 Posted by Stronger (4948 posts) - - Show Bio

Daken owns without pheremones.

#126 Posted by wolverineAOAweaponx (11 posts) - - Show Bio

beebeeeebgrebgb4yubr4yu3b

#127 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

X-23.

#128 Posted by God_Spawn (37381 posts) - - Show Bio

Daken. The only advantage Kinney has is the adamantium claws and that is hardly a game change considering how Daken has done against Wolverine and more skilled opponents than Laura.

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#129 Posted by jashro44 (19873 posts) - - Show Bio

@jeanroygrant said:

X-23.

How so? What has she done that daken has not?

#130 Posted by God_Spawn (37381 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: She fought Daken to mostly an off panel standstill in Collision =O!!

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#131 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@jeanroygrant said:

X-23.

How so? What has she done that daken has not?

After reading i say Daken.

#132 Posted by jashro44 (19873 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn said:

@jashro44: She fought Daken to mostly an off panel standstill in Collision =O!!

LOL

#133 Posted by God_Spawn (37381 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@god_spawn said:

@jashro44: She fought Daken to mostly an off panel standstill in Collision =O!!

LOL

But look Jashro it happened =O.

But seriously, he tackles her off the roof and then the book ends. The next issues starts up with both cut up and bloody.

They've had 2 fights and Daken treated her like a game in the first 1 and she needed help from Armor and Pixie IIRC later. The Collision fight I considered Daken under written, but he did get more hits on Kinney during the fight and he does not like being compared to Logan so it is possible Kinney got under his skin.

Outside of their fights, Daken should be clear superior IMO.

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#134 Posted by HopesummersFORtheFUTURE (2767 posts) - - Show Bio

@GambitO said:

X-23

this girl has many gills is a warring one

inexhaustible surprising and with a great intelligence

to liberate their battles

i say x-23 but why does she dress up like sabretooth in this picture

#135 Posted by Mercy_ (92632 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverineAOAweaponx: Please actually post something relevant to the discussion instead of just spamming. Thanks.

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#136 Posted by wolverineAOAweaponx (11 posts) - - Show Bio

fine i think x-23 cuz she beat wolvie

#137 Posted by God_Spawn (37381 posts) - - Show Bio

Daken should be able to walk all over her if he wished.

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#138 Posted by lykopis (10756 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn said:

Daken should be able to walk all over her if he wished.

Disagree.

#139 Posted by The_Roman (3297 posts) - - Show Bio

Hmm.......Got to say this is a tough one.

#140 Posted by God_Spawn (37381 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis: Why?

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#141 Posted by lykopis (10756 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn: I've gone through this thread, and I am equally a fan of both and while you wouldn't need to twist my arm to go towards Daken, its the same for Laura. You saw their match-up in her cancelled series, you believe he came out the winner?

#142 Edited by God_Spawn (37381 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis: No, I think he should have been though. I'll go into more detail if you like. They have fought twice and once she needed back up and he was kind of treating it as a game and in the 2nd time they seemed to go tit for tat with Daken landing an extra blow or 2. I'm considering all around feats though.

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#143 Posted by lykopis (10756 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn: If you are considering all around feats -- then are you taking into consideration her feats during the her first mini-series? Or the NYX?

#144 Posted by God_Spawn (37381 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis: I'm trying to single out her fights against skilled opponents in general which is where I think it counts. I'll go into detail.

Kinney has no defenses for his stealth attack or pheromones. Granted Daken doesn't use his pheromones all that often but his teleportation style attack is something he used often before when he felt the need to so they are an option if push comes to shove. If it worked on Deadpool, Cyber, Logan and Spider-Man, it should work on Laura. Even if we drop those 2 attacks, I feel Daken has done more against far more credible opponents than Laura. Laura has her win over Logan but 75% of the fight was him just trying to talk her down. He did end up fighting back but I felt he could have disabled her easier due to his extensive list feats.

Kinney is good. she is skilled and she knows how to kill and she does fine against groups of trained killers and soldiers. But I don't recall many, if any, fights against the caliber of opponents like Cyber who has given Wolverine hell when he actually tries. And even Logan said Daken was better than he was and required a brush up with arguably, Marvel's best swordsman in the Silver Samurai + the Muramasa Blade to balance out with Daken's m-claws. But the problem, I can't recall any track record like Daken. It's kind of like me saying Hercules beating Elektra in a sword fight was legit when he doesn't have many sword feats prior to that I even know of. Kinney can kill all the trained soldiers she wants, but it makes a huge difference in comics. I boil it down to whom has she beaten or had very close matches with that is an established person.

If Daken wished, like I originally said, his pheromones and stealth attack could beat her without much trouble and I feel even if he fought with his full level of skill, he would take a solid majority over her in a decent fight I'd suppose due to both healing and Laura is relentless. If he chooses to ignore those abilities and his skill like he did against the Punisher (which was another fight I felt he was underwritten in), the fight like in Collision could seem probable and it would be a long fight, but still, I would have seen Daken come out the victor if it were to finish.

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#145 Posted by lykopis (10756 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn:

Appreciated the run down. But -- you did follow Daken's series to the end, right? Where he became addicted to drugs? He was at the Runaways mercy. That he could get to such a state tells you of someone susceptible to vices. Laura is not. It's not so much teleportation as it is a quickness that appears as though he vanishes, only to reappear. It has never been identified as teleportation, and not shown consistently through his series to be a reliable tool of his. As for pheromones, we can't be sure they would be effective on Laura -- granted, Daken never used it on his father, but it can be inferred its not effective on Wolverine, and therefor not effective on his clone. As for the Punisher, Daken was about to be killed but was assisted by his father and then was able to defeat Franken-Castle. As for his fights with Wolverine, just like in Laura's case, Wolverine held back, not wanting to kill his son.

So in your eyes -- Kimura -- who was a trained assassin and bull-dog and specifically adapted to be invulnerable to Laura would not be considered a worthy opponent? Or Lady Deathstrike? Or Hell-verine? (ugh - I can't even write that without shuddering.)

I am in a rush -- need to grab some stuff from school so I am going to throw this out at you, just for kibbles and bits. Oh -- and let's say Laura was exposed to her trigger scent? Do you think Daken could survive that?

I'll be back.

#146 Posted by TheAcidSkull (17359 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn: i also think x-23 has a good chance of winning

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#147 Edited by God_Spawn (37381 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis: I didn't finish the series once he became an addict. The Daken being considered for this thread would be the one that wasn't on drugs considering the time frame the thread was made. If someone made one when he was on heat then it would pertain to said version. To me, the Daken back in 07 would be the one up to before he became addicted to heat as there wasn't much of a change in his abilities until then from what I recall.

I know it isn't teleportation but I refer to it as his port slash. Otherwise, I call it "where his enemy isn't looking" attack and you can see how it would be repetitive. It was a technique taught to him by Romulus and going back to my original post, I don't think his series alone doesn't unjustify that as he had plenty of other fights he did so against Wolverine a few times, Deadpool multiple times in their fight, Cyber when he was getting attacked, and Spider-Man whom was only saved by spider sense. I never said in this fight that he would use it every time but he does have enough times of using it under his belt to gain a couples, 2 give or take.

And I believe they have worked on Wolverine? Can't remember the issue but didn't he use them to mask his scent? Regardless, he has used them on people with potent healing factors in Cyber and they eventually worked on Skaar too IIRC to calm him down. And they worked on Ares too. The only person I can think of they didn't work was Hulking, but it was a special case due to his unique DNA IIRC? So I can't find a reason why they wouldn't work on X-23.

I hated the idea of Franken-Castle and dropped it after skimming through an issue or 2 at the shop when it came out so I don't know all the details if Daken was being underwritten or not or what kind of edge Frank except that he had that crystal that kept him alive, bigger weapons and a big strength edge so arguably he could overcome Daken's offense based on that. Hellverine sucked, so excuse me for over looking it. Not saying it in a sarcastic tone, I just didn't get a good feel from the event and returned all the issues after. I just have few remnant scans from the series and that's it and all I can remember really unless it gets jogged or someone presents them.

I forgot how the Lady Deathstrike fight went, that one escaped me. It happened in Messiah Complex, right?. I know Kinney won, so yes that counts and Kimura not really on skill level. She had the stat edge to fight Kinney and decent enough skill level to contend with her. Otherwise, I can't recall any major h2h feats.

As for Daken getting held back on by Wolverine, somewhat but I don't think so. Wolverine did acknowledge Daken as his superior (not that he is anymore after his brush up) and he needed the M-blade and a brush up from Silver Samurai to take him.

Daken is just like his father, I think his track record is enough to beat Kinney. He still has his port-slash for 2 wins, and I think more impressive and consistent skill feats when written properly and like his father, has his share of being underwritten as well like his first fight with the Punisher or Clint Barton ball kicking him and putting an arrow through him. I'll give Kinney her win over LDS but Kimura is a special case IMO.

Still, my response was in regards if Daken utilized his assets properly. He doesn't always do his port slash so I won't say he will but I think it is enough for a couple wins. I think skill feats are more consistent against upper level opponents and pheromones if need be.

But I'll make a new post regarding the fight is in total character I can count pheromones out. He has used them twice in a battle IIRC so the odds here are very slim (once was the Spider-Man, another one I can't remember, I think it was Cyber when he gave him a heart attack), his port slash is more often used in battle so there is the 1-2 wins and better feats and statements against upper fighters so he should dictate the pace here. Kinney would get some licks in and the foot claw is an advantage I can see giving her a win here and there herself, but not enough for a slim majority. Daken should take at least 7 and IMO should get 8/10.

As for your trigger scent question, Kinney might have him. As I said before, she is naturally relentless but Daken would beat her in a regular state. Add in the extra ferocity+ ady claws and Daken liking to taunt or kid sometimes might screw him over. If he utilized his abilities though, including pheromones which I wonder if they would reverse the trigger scent? Would take her.

Take your time.

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#148 Posted by healed1337 (16 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis: It's also been established that X-23 is a fast learner. Since she last fought Daken, she's had plenty of fighting practice and experience. She's defeated a cosmically powered Demon King on her own (although with her own cosmic powerup at the time), a subway station full of trigger-scented people, four venom powered clones of herself, a good number of monsters from Hell, an elder of the universe and a dragon. Those are all worthy feats in their own right. In the recent football game she tackled Rockslide, which could be considered as a strength feat.

She fought a series of superpowered teenagers when her healing factor was disabled and she was dying of both adamantium poisoning and possibly internal injuries (although the other academy kids were fighting too). She's also practiced alongside Finesse for an unknown amount of time, and Finesse is immensely skilled in her own right.

What exactly has Daken done since, beyond his adventures in LA where he mostly fought regular criminals? There was that one immensely powerful being, but the runaways were doing most of the work. It's possible his healing factor doesn't work as well as it used to, considering how it was nearly killing him at the end of his solo series - that's just speculation though.

At this point, I'd give a strong edge to Laura based on those feats alone.

#149 Posted by lykopis (10756 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn:

I agree -- Daken was able to mask his scent from his father -- so then he would be able to mask it from his clone -- however, it does nothing to alter the emotional state of either, so the examples of Rulk et al is irrelevant as you are using those examples of him being able to win by using his pheromones -- not to mask them, but to alter their emotional states.

Even with his slash thingamabob you are referring to -- I don't see how that would be applicable in being Laura in a fight. Where is the disadvantage? Wolverine (as her clone) had to ability to judge were teleporters would arrive, based on a pattern he would determine by quickly assessing said adversary (as in Nightcrawler during their Danger Room sessions.) As its been shown, Laura had developed these same abilities while with Weapon X -- since she was born -- going through simulations that mimicked Wolverine and coming up victorious in a shorter time than he did -- suggesting her to be quicker. Again -- that would make a difference in a fight against Daken.

Now -- good point about this thread being created in 2007. That throws out most of Laura and Daken's latest solo series out the window. That's a major hit for her because the point you made about Daken being able to get under Laura's skin is actually in reverse as proven in their fight shared within their series in Madripoor. It was Laura who got under Daken's skin when he insisted they needed each other, and she outright disagreed -- rattling him. But that's after 2007. So -- its either or when it comes to that.

Daken is incredibly devious and manipulative and a two moves ahead kind of fighter. But he was also susceptible to being Romulus' lap dog and actually quivered in fear at the man/wolf/horrific grandfather looking feral type. This is the Daken who had yet to become free of those shackles, he was still in that mindset.

Like I said, it wouldn't take much to twist my arm, and as soon as you pointed out this is the 2007 Daken and Laura -- I had to pull back a bit. Still not too convinced Daken would take this -- If it's a matter of experience and quantity of fights that makes one the victor, then clearly Daken, but I don't agree it's a fair measure. Show me where Hulk, Rulk, Silver Samurai, Hawkeye etc beat Laura, and I will go with you along those lines.

Daken had to be saved quite a few times himself -- although, we would have to acknowledge that half those times were on purpose to suit his longer range plans. So it's hard to rely on his losses and even his wins for the same reasons for having been assisted in some way.

I will marinade.

#150 Posted by lykopis (10756 posts) - - Show Bio

@healed1337 said:

@lykopis: It's also been established that X-23 is a fast learner. Since she last fought Daken, she's had plenty of fighting practice and experience. She's defeated a cosmically powered Demon King on her own (although with her own cosmic powerup at the time), a subway station full of trigger-scented people, four venom powered clones of herself, a good number of monsters from Hell, an elder of the universe and a dragon. Those are all worthy feats in their own right. In the recent football game she tackled Rockslide, which could be considered as a strength feat.

She fought a series of superpowered teenagers when her healing factor was disabled and she was dying of both adamantium poisoning and possibly internal injuries (although the other academy kids were fighting too). She's also practiced alongside Finesse for an unknown amount of time, and Finesse is immensely skilled in her own right.

What exactly has Daken done since, beyond his adventures in LA where he mostly fought regular criminals? There was that one immensely powerful being, but the runaways were doing most of the work. It's possible his healing factor doesn't work as well as it used to, considering how it was nearly killing him at the end of his solo series - that's just speculation though.

At this point, I'd give a strong edge to Laura based on those feats alone.

Agreed and thank you -- those are all great points. Which is why if we are to go on this based on when this thread was created, then we can't rely on those feats -- which in this instance -- is already an enforced handicap on Laura since Daken has been around a lot longer. relies on feats --- in the case of a character like Laura, its unfair considering the age difference and panel time for battles. I would much prefer to focus on what each are capable of doing and apply those against the other.