Dabora VS Perfect Cell

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GoldenOozaru22

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Location: Hyperbolic Time Chamber

Fight to death,

Who would be victorious?

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FlashGreaterSignEveryone

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Dabora in a stomp...

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reaverlation

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Cell

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Cerberus369616

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In a pure physical fight I could see Cell Taking it in his super perfect form since he was comparable to SSJ2 Teen Gohan who was supposedly a little bit stronger than SSJ2 Adult Gohan due to Gohan's lack of training later in his life. But even then Cell would be hard pressed to defeat Dabura. Luckily Dabura has the stone spit trump card that would totally own Cell. He might be able to get around it by separating himself from the effected limb and regenerating but I don't see Cell going for that. Petrification Spit is a cheap and OP move.

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godofnick

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#5  Edited By godofnick

It's spelled Dabura for the record and Cell, pretty handily too. If this was Super Perfect then he'd win in a murderstomp.

I'll go with Cell.

He's not under mind control first of all, everything he does is all his own.

He has the genes of MULTIPLE powerful fighters, mastering most if not all their techniques easily.

Regeneration

Dabura could barely keep up with a Super Saiyan Gohan who was much weaker than the Gohan Cell fought. Cell was superior and stronger than Gohan though, that's the thing. "Oh well then why did Gohan kill him!!!?!!?!?!" Well, Gohan was losing the Kamehameha collision horribly. He needed the help of Goku, Tien, Yamcha, Krillin, Piccolo and Vegeta to win, and even at that it was a very close victory. Perfect Cell is more on Dabura's level yes that is for sure, but Super Perfect would stomp especially because of the Zenkai boost that put him Super Saiyan 2+ level. Cell is easily a solar system buster. Dabura's only chance is the spit, and Cell could dodge that easily, and even if he didn't dodge it he'd just rip off the limb it spread on or say his head, and just regenerate said limb/body. I love both characters, but I don't see Dabura winning in the slightest. Dabura may be as powerful yes but that doesn't mean he has any means of killing Cell lol.

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renamed040924

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Dragon Ball Multiverse did it best. Cell ripping his own head off to avoid the spit is awesome.

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Cerberus369616

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@nickzambuto: Dragonball Multiverse is cool, I haven't read it in ages and should probably catch up.

Ripping a Limb off is certainly possible but even that could lead to his down fall. Sometimes Cell get's a Zen Kai when regenerating but this has to be near death (Only Real distinction I can see ) because more often than not, especially notable after Instant Transmission kKmehameha, Cell receives a major Power Level Decrease after regeneration of that Scale and if that is what happens then Cell is gonna be on the ropes and there is't much to stop Dabura from Spitting on Cell again, especially while he is regenerating.

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Cerberus369616

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It's spelled Dabura for the record and Cell, pretty handily too. If this was Super Perfect then he'd win in a murderstomp.

I'll go with Cell.

He's not under mind control first of all, everything he does is all his own.

He has the genes of MULTIPLE powerful fighters, mastering most if not all their techniques easily.

Regeneration

Dabura could barely keep up with a Super Saiyan Gohan who was much weaker than the Gohan Cell fought. Cell was superior and stronger than Gohan though, that's the thing. "Oh well then why did Gohan kill him!!!?!!?!?!" Well, Gohan was losing the Kamehameha collision horribly. He needed the help of Goku, Tien, Yamcha, Krillin, Piccolo and Vegeta to win, and even at that it was a very close victory. Perfect Cell is more on Dabura's level yes that is for sure, but Super Perfect would stomp especially because of the Zenkai boost that put him Super Saiyan 2+ level. Cell is easily a solar system buster. Dabura's only chance is the spit, and Cell could dodge that easily, and even if he didn't dodge it he'd just rip off the limb it spread on or say his head, and just regenerate said limb/body. I love both characters, but I don't see Dabura winning in the slightest. Dabura may be as powerful yes but that doesn't mean he has any means of killing Cell lol.

Mind Control is the only instance of Dabura we know of so we can't consider a true weakness. Not to mention Majin is hardly a real Mind Control since both Dabura and Vegeta showed little to no regard for Babidi's orders when they disagreed.

Multiple Techniques are a powerful boon but they don't really make him invincible or immune to Magic.

Dabura kept up with Super Saiyan2 Gohan, not Super Saiyan 1 Gohan. And while Gohan was admittedly weaker, nothing suggestes he was MUCH weaker, simply weaker from not keeping up with his training. At wors he was about 80%. Goku mentioned Dabura was about as strong as Cell was so their power levels can't be that different.

Gohan in SSJ2 wasn't entirely outclassed by Super Perfect Cell, he as severely wounded and could only use One hand for a technique he had always used two hand for and still kept it even. The majority of the help came from a severely weakened and beat up Vegeta using a Ki blast that served as little more than a distraction. Realistically it was an even fight since both sides had a handicap (Help from Vegeta for Gohan and an ambush wound on Gohan for Cell) and Cell lost, he isn't more powerful than SSj2 Gohan.

The spit is fast enough to hit, or at least catch of guard Gohan who is faster than Cell. Even SSJ1 with a lower power level Gohan was out speeding and showing better agility than Cell before Gohan got SSJ2. And if it hits Ripping off limbs and regenerating is gonna use up Cells energy like it does Piccolo unless he gets a Zenkai. The Only time Cell has gotten a Zenkai from it is when he regenerated from a single cell, near death as I would call it. Every other time like with Final Flash or Warp Kamehameha it drained his Ki , rather significantly in the latter case. Dabura has a very good chance here.

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GoldenOozaru22

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@cerberus369616:

You pretty much summed up what I was thinking.

Gohan was badly injured when he beat cell.

And yes he was significantly weaker when he fought Dabura, but know one knows how much weaker. He was still able to transform into a SS2, so it's not like he lost a lot of power.

I would say Dabura has a good chance in beating cell, especially if he could spit on him. Which if he did, how would cell know to rip off his arm or leg before it spreads?

Piccolo, who is considered one of the smartest fighters in the dbz universe, failed to recognize it. So if piccolo fails to do that, I would say cell would fail as well..

It would be a really good fight to watch. To me, their power levels are considered even, so that's why I brought up this debate. It would be a great match up.

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Gustofwind

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Considering Super Perfect Cell was somewhat even with Super Saiyan 2 Gohan in his prime and Dabura fought a weaker Adult Gohan somewhat evenly logic suggests Cell would win. It's also important to consider that Cell would have gotten much stronger when he died, so really this is a stomp in Cells favour. The only chance Dabura has is to turn Cells head into stone so he can't regenerate.

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Cerberus369616

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@gustofwind: The difference can't be that great though because Goku compared Dabura's power to that of Cell's. Cell is probably stronger sure, but I doubt it's enough that he totally out classes Dabura and with that OP spit he only needs to tag him with it once or twice.

What do you mean Cell would have gotten much stronger when he died? Do you mean as in after Gohan killed him? Like assuming this is a fight where Cell is brought back from the dead? Even then it wouldn't matter, you only Get a Zenkai when you recover from a near fatal wound not for getting beat up. You actually have to survive the ordeal and heal up.

Being fair to Cell though, the spit can hit his head and if he is quick and rips his head off he can still recover. Cell can recover as long as he has any cell to grow from, his head got Blasted off during Instant Kamehameha and he was able to regenerate that. But again, unless it is a Near fatal injury which for Cell has only ever been his own personal self destruction, Ripping off limbs and regenerating is gonna cost him stamina and battle power shifting the Fight into Dabura's favor all around.

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Blade_R

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#12  Edited By Blade_R

This would be a good fight but I think Cell could take it if he uses his brain, all he has to do is try to avoid the spit, or rip off any thing that gets hit by it, for safe measure he could also make some Cell Juniors and he and all the Cell Jrs could attack simultaneously, they also might be able to hold Dabura off while Cell regenerates any torn off limbs/body parts.

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Jmarshmallow

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Cell. That fan made battle is pretty accurate IMO.

Jmarshmallow

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GoldenOozaru22

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#14  Edited By GoldenOozaru22

@gustofwind:

Out of curiosity, why do you think super perfect cell is even with a super saiyan 2?

When cell returned after blowing up king kais planet, cell got lucky because gohan sacrificed him self to block a ki blast that was not meant for gohan...

So super perfect cell only showed an even match to an injured SS2 gohan...

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Gustofwind

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@gustofwind:

Out of curiosity, why do you think super perfect cell is even with a super saiyan 2?

When cell returned after blowing up king kais planet, cell got lucky because gohan sacrificed him self to block a ki blast that was not meant for gohan...

So super perfect cell only showed an even match to an injured SS2 gohan...

Gohan was losing to Cell in the beam struggle until Vegeta distracted Cell enough for Gohan to counter attack, I don't actually think Cell was stronger, I think Gohan was slightly stronger but not massively so. Cell after he died to Gohans kamehameha would probably have been stronger than Gohan.

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Cerberus369616

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@jmarshmallow: @blade_r: I took a look at the DBM fight and I dunno if I would say that is how it would go. Dabura just ate a Special Beam Cannon for like no reason, and then he spits. He even survives his wounds and is making comments after the fight. He also just watches Cell regenerate from his head after having already seen he can regenerate, instead of attacking the disembodied head. Alot of CiS. Also the writer down plays Dabura's Strength some by having Cell state he was holding back to his strength levels of before he went Super Perfect at the beginning of the Cell Games which is only about Full Powered Super Saiyan levels, Despite Dabura being clearly superior to a Full Powered Super Saiyan Gohan and Forcing to Gohan to go Super Saiyan 2. Please don't tell me that Full Powered Super Saiyan Goku>SSJ2 Adult Gohan. Again Goku even said that Dabura's Power was equal to Cell, I doubt he would randomly be reffering to a weaker incarnation of Cell for no reason. So while the fight is cool it has a lot of CiS and WiS and should be taken with a grain of salt.

As for making Cell Juniors, each on takes a bit of time to make, something I doubt Cell has the time to do in an actual fight with some one so close to being his equal. And again, ripping the limb off that is being petrified is certainly possible but if it isn't a fatal injury he is regenerating from then he isn't gonna get a Zenkai and it's gonna use up his stamina at a faster rate which isn't gonna help him win.

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Blade_R

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@jmarshmallow: @blade_r: I took a look at the DBM fight and I dunno if I would say that is how it would go. Dabura just ate a Special Beam Cannon for like no reason, and then he spits. He even survives his wounds and is making comments after the fight. He also just watches Cell regenerate from his head after having already seen he can regenerate, instead of attacking the disembodied head. Alot of CiS. Also the writer down plays Dabura's Strength some by having Cell state he was holding back to his strength levels of before he went Super Perfect at the beginning of the Cell Games which is only about Full Powered Super Saiyan levels, Despite Dabura being clearly superior to a Full Powered Super Saiyan Gohan and Forcing to Gohan to go Super Saiyan 2. Please don't tell me that Full Powered Super Saiyan Goku>SSJ2 Adult Gohan. Again Goku even said that Dabura's Power was equal to Cell, I doubt he would randomly be reffering to a weaker incarnation of Cell for no reason. So while the fight is cool it has a lot of CiS and WiS and should be taken with a grain of salt.

As for making Cell Juniors, each on takes a bit of time to make, something I doubt Cell has the time to do in an actual fight with some one so close to being his equal. And again, ripping the limb off that is being petrified is certainly possible but if it isn't a fatal injury he is regenerating from then he isn't gonna get a Zenkai and it's gonna use up his stamina at a faster rate which isn't gonna help him win.

That fight is literally the only one I have seen (Because someone posted it here) that's all just fanmade stuff right? Also cant Cell use Tien's quadruplication technique? If so he could have the three fakes hold off Dabura while he produces the Cell Jr's, the only problem is IIRC that technique divides the power, which would make each fake Cell (and the real one) alot easier to take out. I think this would be a really good fight, im still not 100% sure who would win, I have a feeling Dabura's spit could give him the win.

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The_Legendary_SuperSaiyan_Hulk

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Cerberus369616

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@goldenoozaru22 said:

@gustofwind:

Out of curiosity, why do you think super perfect cell is even with a super saiyan 2?

When cell returned after blowing up king kais planet, cell got lucky because gohan sacrificed him self to block a ki blast that was not meant for gohan...

So super perfect cell only showed an even match to an injured SS2 gohan...

Gohan was losing to Cell in the beam struggle until Vegeta distracted Cell enough for Gohan to counter attack, I don't actually think Cell was stronger, I think Gohan was slightly stronger but not massively so. Cell after he died to Gohans kamehameha would probably have been stronger than Gohan.

Why do you think Cell would get a power boost for dying? Zenkai only works if you recovers from a almost fatal wound. If a Saiyan actually dies they don't get any stronger. Once Cell died he was just that, dead. He can train in the Spirit World like GT implies but that's training lol.

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Gustofwind

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#20  Edited By Gustofwind

@cerberus369616 said:

@gustofwind said:

@goldenoozaru22 said:

@gustofwind:

Out of curiosity, why do you think super perfect cell is even with a super saiyan 2?

When cell returned after blowing up king kais planet, cell got lucky because gohan sacrificed him self to block a ki blast that was not meant for gohan...

So super perfect cell only showed an even match to an injured SS2 gohan...

Gohan was losing to Cell in the beam struggle until Vegeta distracted Cell enough for Gohan to counter attack, I don't actually think Cell was stronger, I think Gohan was slightly stronger but not massively so. Cell after he died to Gohans kamehameha would probably have been stronger than Gohan.

Why do you think Cell would get a power boost for dying? Zenkai only works if you recovers from a almost fatal wound. If a Saiyan actually dies they don't get any stronger. Once Cell died he was just that, dead. He can train in the Spirit World like GT implies but that's training lol.

Yeah I made a mistake, I forgot Zenkai only applied to near death experiences.

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JustSomeRandomKid

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Ya I'm going with Cell in this one. Dabura could barely keep up with a weaker SS2 Gohan who forgot how the fight, so he isn't beating Cell.

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GoldenOozaru22

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@justsomerandomkid: well like I said earlier cell was only able to show about the same amount of power to a badly injured SS2 gohan . And Dabura can barely keep up with a weaker Ss2 gohan. So too me, Dabura and perfect cell have equal power levels...

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Cell

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DarthAznable

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#24  Edited By DarthAznable

I like Dabura but he ain't all that.

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Mike_Fowler

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#25  Edited By Mike_Fowler

First gohan was ssj against dabra (or dabura)

Second spc wasn't far behind gohan

Probably like this

Spc 96

Ssj2 gohan 100

Cell could take ssj2 gohan with his techniques and skill

Now I want people to realize this As far as the guidebooks go... one of Daizenshuu #2's battle guides says that Gohan "puts forth his strongest power" to win the Kamehameha clash with Cell. The other battles guide in Daizenshuu #2 labels Gohan's Kamehameha that beat Cell as the strongest or greatest one to date. D2's story guide says Gohan "unleashes all his ki in one burst" to win,

All of this would seem to say that however strong Gohan was before his injury, he managed to pull that power and perhaps a little more back out to win. Which fits with the manga. Gohan was at less than half power, and rapidly losing the Kamehameha clash (it was dragged out in the anime, but very quick and obvious in the manga) before he turned things around.

Regular PC (at full power). Takes

SPC stomps

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Mike_Fowler

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#26  Edited By Mike_Fowler

@cerberus369616: or simple gohan was only ssj against dabura it makes sense based off the quotes and gohans aura throughout that fight with dabura

There's more evidence to support gohan being ssj IMO

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pikachumonster

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Dabura petrifies him?

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Mike_Fowler

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Cerberus369616

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@dbzk1999 said:

@cerberus369616: or simple gohan was only ssj against dabura it makes sense based off the quotes and gohans aura throughout that fight with dabura

There's more evidence to support gohan being ssj IMO

This is an argument older than time itself, whether or not Gohan was SSj2 when he fought Dabura or not. The only concrete proof is the Aura in the manga wasn't as sharp and didn't have the sparks like every other SSJ2 appearance. But on he flip side, Gohan's hair was SSJ2 styled, he was honestly on the losing side of the fight with Dabura and never thought to use a more powerful form he had exhibited with ease for Kibito already that day, Goku compares Dabura to Cell and even says after that , that due to magic and battle tricks he might be even stronger than he thought. I think if he didn't use SSj2 it causes more problems story wise and thematically than if he does. If Gohan is SSJ then Dabura would have to be a GREAT deal weaker than Cell, meaning Goku's ability to sense Ki is WAY off which i find hard to believe. Goku is dumb sometimes but since he mastered ki sensing he's generally been on point with it even telling when some one is holding back. and for the Cell comparison to make sense in that regard he would be talking about a much weaker version of Cell than the more powerful version everyone was aware of which also makes no sense, it's like if every time Goku referred to Frieza he was referring to his 1st Form. If Gohan is SSj why would he not blitz and finish off Dabura with SSj2 once he realized SSj wasn't working? GOhan is SSj2, the only thing saying he isn't is a minor art detail. Story and another arguably equally art detail say he is. Story & 1 Art Detail> 1 Art Detail

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Mike_Fowler

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#31  Edited By Mike_Fowler

Here is the most basic piece of evidence, which still fails to convince many, the diffrence in a SSJ aura and a SSJ2 aura.

SSJ aura: No lightening, less sharper aura and less spikier hair.

SSJ2 aura: Sharper aura and with lightening surrounding the aura and more spikier.

http://s33.photobucket.com/user/Kaboom_Krusader/media/Screencaps/Goku_SSj2_Differences_Simple.jpg.html

This makes it pretty clear goku ssj no lightning turns ssj2 automatically has lightning AT make it pretty clear that ssj has no lightning consistently ssj2 consistently has lightning

As you can see, there's is a staggering diffrence between the two auras, people think Gohan was a SSJ2 since he had 1 bang stands, however Toriyama drew SSJ and SSJ2 Gohan with 1 bang stands during the World Tourment. Gohan had 1 bang stands when he saw Spopovich beating Videl and he was just a SSJ. But this is not the only piece of evidence to prove my point. Here it will get a little more complex.

Frequents amounts of people have said that, although he looks like a SSJ, it fits into the story far more to say that Gohan was a SSJ2 while fighting Dabura, and that it's the only thing to make the following events consistently sensible.

However...

Chapter: 443 (DBZ 249), P5.3-6

Context: after Spopovich beats Videl

Krillin: "That rotten...! Why is he doing this!?

Sharpener: "Videl! Damn him!

Gohan: "NNGGHH!!!

Goku: "Gohan! calm down, he's not going to kill her.

Chapter: 443 (DBZ 249), P7.1-2

Gohan: "Damn it! I've had it with this bastard!"

Krillin: "Hey hey! Calm down, Gohan!"

Gohan: "No way."

Chapter: 443 (DBZ 249), P10.1-5

Gohan: "Videl!

Announcer: "I will call a stretcher

Gohan: "No! I'll carry her.

Videl: "ahh..."

Gohan: "Supopobitchi! I'm going to get you for this. Got that?"

...Uppon witnessing Videl's beatdown by Spopovitch, Gohan's emotions became highly flustered, enough so that it was capable of tiggering a full scale of transformation into a SSJ2. Remember this, after the Cell Games, Gohan never even trained in his SSJ2 form nor mastered the transformation itself. Unlike Goku or Vegeta, Gohan's SSJ2 transformation still required an intense moment of stirring rage. At the World Martial Arts Tourment, Gohan's temperament was what initiated his capability to go SSJ2, in lamen terms, he was mad enough to becmoe a SSJ2. Sure, Videl was healed by a senzu bean, but despite that , Gohan still wanted revenge over what Spopovich did. His anger regarding that didn't change. To make it simple, the conditions required for an uncontrolled SSJ2 transformation were just right for Gohan during this particular event (ex. friends he care about being hurt retribution). But if we compare that to his situation against Babidi and Dabura...

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P3.1-2

Context: as Gohan remembers Goku’s advice to get angry

Gohan: “I-I am angry…! I’m angry, but…[it’s not] like it was ba-back then…”

...Gohan blatantly admits to not being angry enough (for whatever reasons) to become a SSJ2 when contemplating Goku's advice to unleash his full power. This also goes for his trip into Babidi's ship and his fight with Dabura. Never once was he enraged during his time spent with Goku and Vegtea battling Babidi's henchmen to the extent as he was when watching Videl fighting Spopovich and the aftermath of the fight. And to a further extent the cell games

Seeing as we've gotten that issue all figured out and explained, let's move on to even more evident indications of a SSJ Gohan vs Dabura. If we are to take the possibility of a SSJ2 Gohan vs Dabura seriously, we must see if it fits in with the plot. We'll start it off with Goku's unawareness to Majin Vegeta's SSJ2 form.

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P8.1-4

Context: as Goku and Vegeta are about to fight

Goku: “I don’t wanna take any damage from you and have it become Majin Boo’s energy…So I’m gonna end this quickly, at maximum power.”

Vegeta: “I’m looking forward to this…Show me the fruits of your training in the afterlife. *Goku transforms into Super Saiyan 2* Just as I’d expect. Your power is greater than Gohan’s was back then!”

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P9.1-5

Context: after Vegeta goes Super Saiyan 2

Vegeta: "Haaaa!"

Goku: "It looks like it'll take a while"

Vegeta: "Here I go! I am going to kill you, Kakarot!"

With Vegeta under Babidi's spell, Goku intended to beat him quickly with SSJ2, so he can prevent Majin Boo's awakening. Once seeing Vegeta transform into a SSJ2 as well, Goku was quite startled. Since we now know that Goku didn't know of Vegeta's SSJ2 form, we can apply this knowledge to this specific scene.

Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P10.5-6

Context: as Gohan fights Dabra

Vegeta: “Damn it…this is pissing me off! Alright, I’ll finish this!”

Goku: “Don’t, Vegeta! Let [Gohan] do it. It ain’t like he’s completely losing.”

When Goku, Vegeta and East Kaioshin observe Gohan's fight with Dabura, Vegeta irritatingly demands to finish the fight with Dabura, insisting he'd by no doubt win. Interestingly, Goku has no objections to Vegeta's claim. Whether or not Vegeta had already attained SSJ2 before being converted to Majin influence is another matter of discussion, but the fact remains that Goku didn't know about it and yet he still made no indication that Vegeta couldn't handle Dabura on his own. This is a clear cut sign that Dabura is nowhere near the league of, say, Super Perfect Cell, or any SSJ2 for that matter. It also, obviously, proves that Gohan was difinitely not a SSJ2.

Finally, if we were to look closely at the context Gohan is speaking in of the SSJ2's here...

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P6.1-2

Context: after Majin Boo quickly reaches full power

Kaioshin: “Th-that’s impossible…Wh-why has Goku’s damage energy [filled it up] already…!?”

Gohan: “…I-I know…! Father is fighting at a level that has further surpassed Super Saiyan…Vegeta probably is too…If-if two incredible powers like that clash, th-the damage is astounding too…!”

...We see that he reacts with a sudden realization that the reason why Boo's shell was now overflowing with energy must have been because Goku and Vegeta were fighting at the level beyond the regular Super Saiyan. Why would Gohan be so rattled by this discovery if he and Dabura were already fighting in the same league beforehand (which had barely filled Boo's shell with any energy at all)? Maybe because he and Dabura weren't even in that league of power to begin with....

Gohan never had lightning against dabura not even once when fighting unlike goku, vegeta, kid gohan and 25th budokai tournament gohan.

Goku only stated dabura Was "probably" around cells level then he pretty much states he's stronger because of magic not really dabura> cell power wise and definetly not skill wise

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Cerberus369616

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@dbzk1999 said:

@cerberus369616: except AT stopped drawing ssj gohan with two bangs this scan proves it

http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3092-6/dragon-ball/chapter-443.html

When gohan sees videl getting beatin he goes ssj in that scan he only has one bang

Also why would gohan state (while goku and vegeta are fighting)

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P6.1-2

Context: after Majin Boo quickly reaches full power

Kaioshin: “Th-that’s impossible…Wh-why has Goku’s damage energy [filled it up] already…!?”

Gohan: “…I-I know…! Father is fighting at a level that has further surpassed Super Saiyan…Vegeta probably is too…If two incredible powers like that clash, th-the damage is astounding too…!”

Gohan says they are able to inflict such a damage since they are fighting as ssj2 that proves gohan was not a ssj2 while fighting dabura as if he was then he would have filled up the ball I mean his ssj2 already filled up half of it and he was pretty much fighting evenly with dabura

Yes lightning is a factor why would draw gohan with lightning at the tournament not when fighting dabura then draws it for the entirety of goku vs majin vegeta and then when goku goes ssj2 a showing buu is again shown with lightning that's way too consistent

Also goku states that a cell level opponent would've been a problem years ago but now he's not vegeta agrees also take in mind that neither of then know that the other (at the moment) surpassed ssj and reached ssj2 so if gohan was ssj2 then you know what that implies which is ridiculous

Again that assumes that Gohan is only turning SSj1, he is clearly angry about Videl so an argument could be made that is also SSj2.

The damage surprised Gohan because as you said yourself he wasn't aware that they had reached such a level, in addition to being stronger, that doesn't mean the energy from him and Dabura's fight was insignificant, it's never mentioned how much it was anyway.All that statement proves is that Supreme kai was surprised at how much energy they put out and how fast it happened , which isn't surprising because Supreme kai was nothing but surprised at the Saiyan the entire Saga, and that Gohan wasn't aware of them being SSj2 until then. The Majority of the work in terms of unsealing the ball was done when Gohan got drained by yamu anyway.

Lightning is a factor certainly, but it shows up at random times for dramatic effect all the time, it isn't always perfectly consistent. It shows up on SSj1 Vegito. It shows up in the anime during the Dabura fight a few times. And why should we believe that AT is perfectly consistent with one detail but will arbitrarily decide to change another detail just because.

Goku does state that a Cell level opponent wouldn't be a problem now and they don't know for sure that the other has reached SSj2 but that doesn't change that Goku said Dabura was around Cell's power. All it means is that Goku and Vegeta are just establishing that they are personally much stronger. Your trying to say that I'm implying that a SSJ Goku is > to SSJ2 Gohan but that would be making the assumption that when Goku said he could take Dabura or Cell with ease he meant in SSJ1 which isn't what he implied, all he said was they wouldn't be a problem. It could have meant anything, a new technique , a trick it could mean anything at all including SSJ2. The only fact we know is that Goku said Dabura was around Cell's power. If what you are saying is true, then Full Powered SSJ Goku from the Cell games would stomp Dabura since a weaker SSJ Gohan (as you allege he was) was about even with Dabura and a Stronger SSJ Gohan got pretty much stomped by Cell and Goku's ability to sense Ki and battle power is absolutely terrible. From a power scaling perspective it makes no sense for Dabura to be that weak.

Regardless of anything the only thing we have to base Dabura's power level on is Goku's statement about him and in the Anime where Dabura states that a Killi of 4000 isn't enough to take him where as Goku in SSJ has a killi of 3000.

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Mike_Fowler

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#33  Edited By Mike_Fowler

@cerberus369616: except many sources state that gohan only goes ssj2 when he shows kibito (even the Daiz which contradicts itself on what form gohan faced dabura in states gohan first goes ssj2 while showing kibito

This is also confirmed when spopovitch and yamu don't attack gohan until after he's gone ssj2 in from of kibito if he went ssj2 while watching videl then they would've realized he's the one they should take energy from earlier

Why use the anime

Te anime has ssj2 goku > mystic gohan

Kid buu > buuhan and many other contradictions and dabura didn't state that in the manga (about the killis)

When I say ssj goku > ssj2 gohan it's because vegeta and goku bit agree they could take dabura yet they don't know that the other has ssj2 that's pretty much a fact vegeta agrees not knowing goku has unlocked ssj2 yet so they both know that the other could defeat dabura yet they don't know that the other has ssj2 what else could that imply? That's why it seems better to have gohan as an ssj

Also vegeta states he should step in and kill dabura goku states not to because it's not like gohan is completely losing he doesn't say "no vegeta he's too powerful for you"

That's why I said consistently in the manga vegito only had lightning for about one panel an then they didn't show up again gohan had NO lightning sparks when fighting dabura when earlier he's shown with lightning and goku vs vegeta are also shown with lightning throughout the entire fight (see the words ENTIRE FIGHT) heck when goku goes ssj2 in front of buu first no lightning as an ssj then he has lightning as an ssj2

That's the difference between ssj2 and a big power up the lightning only stays for about one panel for a big power up an ssj2 aura consistently has lightning for more than a few panels

This is shown when gohan is ssj2 against cell

goku vs vegeta

At the world tournament

And when cell comes back with the lightning to signify he's in the ssj2 tier now

Also explain why gohans hair isn't as defined when watching videl and fighting dabura as it is when he goes ssj2 in front of kibito

Gohan: “…I-I know…! Father is fighting at a level that has further surpassed Super Saiyan…Vegeta probably is too…If-if two incredible powers like that clash, th-the damage is astounding too…!”

Gohan literally if two powers beyond super saiyan (ssj2) clash the damage is astounding why would he be surprised if he was fighting at a level beyond super saiyan and fighting evenly with someone else of a supposed ssj2 power

Whys it hard to believe dabura was weak? Babidi was thought to have gotten the strongest warriors only to be proven wrong each time what's so different about dabura?

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GoldenOozaru22

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@dbzk1999: @cerberus369616: I take back what I said earlier, I have a scan but can't post it on here because I'm using my phone.

But in the scan it is super perfect t cell stating:

"Even better, Now I'm complete without #18 and I've Powered up- Like son Gohan"

So with that scan it shows cell is more powerful then Dabura, cause Dabura and gohan fight almost evenly and gohan is a lot weaker when he fights dabura, therefore if cell was equal to gohan's max Ss2 strength, that means cell is more powerful then dabura.

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Mike_Fowler

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@goldenoozaru22: I remember that it's obvious spc will most likely stomp dabura

I personally believe gohan was stronger because he's used as the measuring stick but cell isn't far behind him

Spc could take gohan thanks to skill and techniques

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Dabura had trouble with an extremely weakened SSJ Gohan, he's not getting any further than Perfect cell (Against SSj Kid Gohan) and that's is giving him too much credit.

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Cerberus369616

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@dbzk1999 said:

@cerberus369616: except many sources state that gohan only goes ssj2 when he shows kibito

This is also confirmed when spopovitch and yamu don't attack gohan until after he's gone ssj2 in from of kibito if he went ssj2 while watching videl then they would've realized he's the one they should take energy from earlier

Why use the anime

Te anime has ssj2 goku > mystic gohan

Kid buu > buuhan and many other contradictions and dabura didn't state that in the manga

When I say ssj goku > ssj2 gohan it's because vegeta and goku bit agree they could take dabura yet they don't know that the other has ssj2 that's pretty much a fact vegeta agrees not knowing goku has unlocked ssj2 yet so they both know that

That's why I said consistently in the manga vegito only had lightning for about one panel an then they didn't show up again gohan had NO lightning sparks when fighting dabura when earlier he's shown with lightning and goku vs vegeta are also shown with lightning throughout the entire fight (see the words ENTIRE FIGHT) heck when goku goes ssj2 in front of buu first no lightning as an ssj then he has lightning

That's the difference between ssj2 and a big power up the lightning only stays for about one panel for a big power up an ssj2 aura consistently has lightning for more than a few panels

This is shown when gohan is ssj2 against cell

goku vs vegeta

At the world tournament

And when cell comes back with the lightning to signify he's in the ssj2 tier now

I can tell we aren't gonna get anywhere with this argument on whether he was SSJ2 or not, it's been debated ad nauseam on dozens of forums, if people wanna look up both sides of the argument then they can but I'm not having that particular debate any longer.

I don't doubt that SPC is more powerful than Dabura, that is clear since he was about even with Gohan and Gohan was weaker at that point. I just don't think it's to a large enough degree that it's a stomp in SPC's favor, Dabura isn't gonna get insta blitzed. The petrification Spit is gonna cost Cell. It's an OP move that has worked on everyone except Gohan who used clothing as the only means to escape. If cell doesn't react in time or get's hit in a problematic spot he is going to lose on the spot. If it hits him and, he does react in time by removing the limb, He is gonna have to regenerate which is gonna drain his stamina and energy on top of leaving him open while he regenerates. The Spit is cheap and OP and it's something he reguarly resorts to. Without prior knowledge of it Cell isn't gonna deal with it effectively on the spot.

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#38  Edited By Mike_Fowler
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Cerberus369616

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@dbzk1999: lol me too, it's certainly an entertaining debate but it's been going on for years, it really just depends on how much weight people put on what details. The best I've ever seen it boiled down to is

"OK, so here are the facts. Due to his aura, lightning sparks and the fact that he tells Kibito he'll "become a Super Saiyan that has surpassed the Super Saiyan wall", Gohan is Super Saiyan 2 at the 25th Tenkaichi Budoukai.

Afterwards, during his battles with Dabra and Fat Boo, he doesn't display a SS2-esque aura or lightning sparks...but the story isn't entirely consistent with how it implies Gohan's level of strength, which is part of the reason why the "Bobbodi's spaceship" mini-arc, or the Boo arc in general, has really piss poor writing. If you want to know why, you can trawl through the archive of billions of threads about how shit the Boo arc's writing was, whether or not Gohan was SS or SS2, which form of Cell could be compared to, etc...

Either way, this issue will never get resolved, and I fully understand why. Toriyama messed up, and he messed up big. I think this is probably one of the biggest mistakes he ever made in the series, simply because I personally don't think it makes any in-universe story-wise sense for Gohan not be a SS2, even if you want to handwave it away with some twisted theory that Gohan hadn't practiced the form or he was scared that he'd fuck up like at the Cell Games...but if that was the case, then why didn't Toriyama explain that or suggest it in the story? Why do Gokuu nor Vegeta even comment on the fact that he's clearly not SS2, but seemingly don't know or ignore it, choosing only to comment on how much power he's lost since he was a kid?"

Another post from another forum on the same debate like 2 years ago, and it never ends. It's been going on for years. I've never convinced a person from the other camp and I've never seen a person from my camp convinced, too much evidence on either side.

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DeathHero61

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#40  Edited By DeathHero61
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Dabora in a stomp...

Dabura gets stomped.

Dabura had trouble with an extremely weakened SSJ Gohan, he's not getting any further than Perfect cell (Against SSj Kid Gohan) and that's is giving him too much credit.

Pretty much this.