#1 Posted by BigCimmerian (7851 posts) - - Show Bio

- Full power both 
- Battle is on earth 
-Surtur has twilight sword 
 
 
VS 

#2 Posted by TheFallenOne (1093 posts) - - Show Bio

Cyttorak stomps !!!
#3 Posted by Illuminatus (9491 posts) - - Show Bio
@TheFallenOne said:
Cyttorak stomps !!!
Why?
#4 Posted by PikminMania (4628 posts) - - Show Bio
@Illuminatus: Cyttorak took out Galactus and Silver Surfer at the same time
#5 Posted by Deadcool (6809 posts) - - Show Bio
@PikminMania: I need to learn more about Cyttorak, but, Do you think that his feats are more impresive than Surtur feats?
#6 Posted by TheFallenOne (1093 posts) - - Show Bio
@Illuminatus said:


                    @TheFallenOne said:


                    Cyttorak stomps !!!

                   

               
Why?

                   

               

cyttorak >= Vishanti. When Vishanti foguth Slorioth it was stated that universe will be busted as a said effect. Also it was stated that Slorioth would actually kill Eternity. Not to mention that Cyttorak makes Juggernuat trully immortal and unable to be dekleted from existance - which shows his superiority to Oblivion and Death. Also Cyttorak powered up Cain even when he was out of the marvel Multiverse- in Ultraverse. Which belongs to Marvel Megaverse. That's above anything any skyftaher or Odin did so far.
#7 Posted by demifiend (3575 posts) - - Show Bio

cyttorak

#8 Posted by isaac_clarke (5448 posts) - - Show Bio

 
Surtur, cause Cyttorak really doesn't have any feats outside empowering the Juggernaut lol.

#9 Posted by tron_bonne (2286 posts) - - Show Bio

Cyttorak. Just like TOAA, he needs no feats.

#10 Posted by karrob (4276 posts) - - Show Bio

Surtur

#11 Posted by isaac_clarke (5448 posts) - - Show Bio
@tron_bonne said:
Cyttorak. Just like TOAA, he needs no feats.
TOAA has feats. Like showings of absolute control over reality, creating LT, etc. 
Cyttorak empowers the Juggernaut, that the Serpent can hijack to his will.
#12 Posted by TheFallenOne (1093 posts) - - Show Bio
@isaac_clarke said:


                    @tron_bonne said:


                    Cyttorak. Just like TOAA, he needs no feats.

                   

               
TOAA has feats. Like showings of absolute control over reality, creating LT, etc. Cyttorak empowers the Juggernaut, that the Serpent can hijack to his will.

                   

               

Mate it was stated in Thunderbolts 160 that Cain with Cyttorak's power which remaind in him (and Cain was depowered) could get rid of Kuurth easily, but chose not to.
#13 Posted by Thor's hammmer (7184 posts) - - Show Bio

Cyttorak. easy.
#14 Posted by Jedisupermaster (1112 posts) - - Show Bio

@Thor's hammmer said:

Cyttorak. easy.
#15 Posted by Outside_85 (8124 posts) - - Show Bio

Surtur, because its outside Cyttorak's place of power.

#16 Posted by Jedisupermaster (1112 posts) - - Show Bio

@Outside_85 said:

Surtur, because its outside Cyttorak's place of power.

Even outside, Cyttorak still beats Surtur.

#17 Posted by Outside_85 (8124 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jedisupermaster: Hmm since he is heavily affected by location and his feats are really abyssmal when outside of it...no, I dont think so.

#18 Posted by Jedisupermaster (1112 posts) - - Show Bio

@Outside_85 said:

@Jedisupermaster: Hmm since he is heavily affected by location and his feats are really abyssmal when outside of it...no, I dont think so.

Well, Juggernaut has very impressive durability feats. And trion Juggernaut with only one Cyttoraks aspect was doing crazy things (he was able to destroy dementions by his fists). Now imagine how powerful Cyttorak would be outside Crimson Cosmos. I want to know what Surtur will do to overcome Cyttoraks durability.

#19 Posted by Bo88gdan (4393 posts) - - Show Bio

Cyttorak for sure wins

#20 Posted by a88378438 (3421 posts) - - Show Bio

cyttorak easily

#21 Posted by Outside_85 (8124 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jedisupermaster said:

@Outside_85 said:

@Jedisupermaster: Hmm since he is heavily affected by location and his feats are really abyssmal when outside of it...no, I dont think so.

Well, Juggernaut has very impressive durability feats. And trion Juggernaut with only one Cyttoraks aspect was doing crazy things (he was able to destroy dementions by his fists). Now imagine how powerful Cyttorak would be outside Crimson Cosmos. I want to know what Surtur will do to overcome Cyttoraks durability.

The problem is that Cyttorak is not the Juggernaut and whatever one can do does not translate as feats for the other. As for what Surtur will do; cleaving him in two with that sword of his seems like a good bet.

#22 Posted by Jedisupermaster (1112 posts) - - Show Bio

@Outside_85 said:

@Jedisupermaster said:

@Outside_85 said:

@Jedisupermaster: Hmm since he is heavily affected by location and his feats are really abyssmal when outside of it...no, I dont think so.

Well, Juggernaut has very impressive durability feats. And trion Juggernaut with only one Cyttoraks aspect was doing crazy things (he was able to destroy dementions by his fists). Now imagine how powerful Cyttorak would be outside Crimson Cosmos. I want to know what Surtur will do to overcome Cyttoraks durability.

The problem is that Cyttorak is not the Juggernaut and whatever one can do does not translate as feats for the other. As for what Surtur will do; cleaving him in two with that sword of his seems like a good bet.

Wrong. We can translate Juggernauts feats as feats for Cyttorak since Juggernaut is an avatar of Cyttorak. All Juggernauts powers are from Cyttorak. So Cyttorak would win, even outside Crimson Cosmos.

#23 Posted by Outside_85 (8124 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jedisupermaster said:

@Outside_85 said:

@Jedisupermaster said:

@Outside_85 said:

@Jedisupermaster: Hmm since he is heavily affected by location and his feats are really abyssmal when outside of it...no, I dont think so.

Well, Juggernaut has very impressive durability feats. And trion Juggernaut with only one Cyttoraks aspect was doing crazy things (he was able to destroy dementions by his fists). Now imagine how powerful Cyttorak would be outside Crimson Cosmos. I want to know what Surtur will do to overcome Cyttoraks durability.

The problem is that Cyttorak is not the Juggernaut and whatever one can do does not translate as feats for the other. As for what Surtur will do; cleaving him in two with that sword of his seems like a good bet.

Wrong. We can translate Juggernauts feats as feats for Cyttorak since Juggernaut is an avatar of Cyttorak. All Juggernauts powers are from Cyttorak. So Cyttorak would win, even outside Crimson Cosmos.

Being an avatar of someone doesn't mean you can apply ABC logic, take a look at Animal Man and Swamp Thing, they are both avatars of the red and green respectively, but they aren't anything like the Parliament of Trees or the Red equal. So no, you cant.

#24 Posted by Jedisupermaster (1112 posts) - - Show Bio

@Outside_85 said:

@Jedisupermaster said:

@Outside_85 said:

@Jedisupermaster said:

@Outside_85 said:

@Jedisupermaster: Hmm since he is heavily affected by location and his feats are really abyssmal when outside of it...no, I dont think so.

Well, Juggernaut has very impressive durability feats. And trion Juggernaut with only one Cyttoraks aspect was doing crazy things (he was able to destroy dementions by his fists). Now imagine how powerful Cyttorak would be outside Crimson Cosmos. I want to know what Surtur will do to overcome Cyttoraks durability.

The problem is that Cyttorak is not the Juggernaut and whatever one can do does not translate as feats for the other. As for what Surtur will do; cleaving him in two with that sword of his seems like a good bet.

Wrong. We can translate Juggernauts feats as feats for Cyttorak since Juggernaut is an avatar of Cyttorak. All Juggernauts powers are from Cyttorak. So Cyttorak would win, even outside Crimson Cosmos.

Being an avatar of someone doesn't mean you can apply ABC logic, take a look at Animal Man and Swamp Thing, they are both avatars of the red and green respectively, but they aren't anything like the Parliament of Trees or the Red equal. So no, you cant.

But here, in this thread, ABC logic works.

#25 Posted by xxxddd (3572 posts) - - Show Bio

Cyttorak.

#26 Posted by XiiX (7421 posts) - - Show Bio

Surtur.

#27 Posted by Outside_85 (8124 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jedisupermaster: ABC logic never works.

#28 Posted by Jedisupermaster (1112 posts) - - Show Bio

@Outside_85 said:

@Jedisupermaster: ABC logic never works.

It depends on situation.

#29 Posted by Simon_the_digger (2842 posts) - - Show Bio

Surtur

#30 Posted by 7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning (3578 posts) - - Show Bio

@Outside_85 said:

@Jedisupermaster said:

@Outside_85 said:

@Jedisupermaster said:

@Outside_85 said:

@Jedisupermaster: Hmm since he is heavily affected by location and his feats are really abyssmal when outside of it...no, I dont think so.

Well, Juggernaut has very impressive durability feats. And trion Juggernaut with only one Cyttoraks aspect was doing crazy things (he was able to destroy dementions by his fists). Now imagine how powerful Cyttorak would be outside Crimson Cosmos. I want to know what Surtur will do to overcome Cyttoraks durability.

The problem is that Cyttorak is not the Juggernaut and whatever one can do does not translate as feats for the other. As for what Surtur will do; cleaving him in two with that sword of his seems like a good bet.

Wrong. We can translate Juggernauts feats as feats for Cyttorak since Juggernaut is an avatar of Cyttorak. All Juggernauts powers are from Cyttorak. So Cyttorak would win, even outside Crimson Cosmos.

Being an avatar of someone doesn't mean you can apply ABC logic, take a look at Animal Man and Swamp Thing, they are both avatars of the red and green respectively, but they aren't anything like the Parliament of Trees or the Red equal. So no, you cant.

They are Avatars like what? Placing a Icon next to their name Avatar? That's like someone voting for Mitt Romney and then stating they voted for him because of his cause and they follow that cause claiming that they are Romney's avatars. That's completely different about the relations between Juggernaut and Cyttorak. Even if the avatar was an off-spring, it doesn't count as the same way.

Cyttorak is different than the Red or the Green.

It is an extra-dimension consciousness of an entire infinity and has many different aspects of itself. Cyttorak doesn't have "evolution" like the Green and the Red. Cyttorak is TIMELESSNESS. It only granted Juggernaut a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of his powers ONLY BECAUSE the Wager. The Wager was a bet to determine which extra-dimensionsal universe has more Infinite Power. And each of the Universes poured 1/8 of a specific aspect into a living creature inside each of the universes of the multiverse. Cain Marko received 1/8th of the power of physical destruction of Crimson Cosmos. All other "Examplars" (Avatars) had 1/8th of another aspect.

Cyttorak is all aspects that are 100%

Juggernaut is only 12% of only ONE of his aspects. Trion Juggernaut is ONLY 12% of Physical Power.

Juggernaut is only considered an avatar because he is a walking Crimson Band of Cyttorak. So even if Surtur uses his sword to cut Juggernaut successfully, Juggernaut would instantly heal the moment he is cut. If his probability forcefield is on, The Twilight Sword would a) Repel back a Surtur b) loose momentum and speed c) or shatter it.

And that Juggernaut alone. Cyttorak would blink Surtur and all his alternative versions off of the face of every universe of the multiverse.

Surtur stands a better chance against a well fed Galactus than facing against Cyttorak.

#31 Posted by Prince_RehteStroC (137 posts) - - Show Bio

Cyttorak doesn't really have feats but I have a feeling he's more powerful than Surtur, who's really not all that great to begin with.

#32 Posted by Outside_85 (8124 posts) - - Show Bio

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning: One problem with your rant, Juggernaut has been beaten time and again by far lesser beings than Surtur who would simply kill him and not even notice.

#33 Edited by Illuminatus (9491 posts) - - Show Bio

Surtur stomps.

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning: Go back to KMC.

#34 Posted by Azathoth_The_Dread_Sleeper (597 posts) - - Show Bio

We don't even know how powerful Cyttorak is outside his Crimson Cosmos.

This fight will go to Surtur.

#35 Posted by ShootingNova (15523 posts) - - Show Bio

Cyttorak isn't exactly the best being to use in combat threads.......

Surtur stomps by feats, wins overall (especially due to the Twilight Sword) and Cyttorak hasn't done much outside of his realm. Apart from the Juggernaut stuff, Cyttorak's power was used outside of his realm only to create worshippers, and he was powerless to stop Oblivion from killing Juggernaut via aging him to death.

#36 Posted by Killemall (18252 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova said:

Cyttorak isn't exactly the best being to use in combat threads.......

Surtur stomps by feats, wins overall (especially due to the Twilight Sword) and Cyttorak hasn't done much outside of his realm. Apart from the Juggernaut stuff, Cyttorak's power was used outside of his realm only to create worshippers, and he was powerless to stop Oblivion from killing Juggernaut via aging him to death.

Thats the best argument i have seen thus far :)

#37 Posted by 7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning (3578 posts) - - Show Bio

@Outside_85 said:

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning: One problem with your rant, Juggernaut has been beaten time and again by far lesser beings than Surtur who would simply kill him and not even notice.

Yes but describe "beaten". How do they beat him? What means of PIS does it take to beat him?

Don't forget before you answer to compare the top characters Juggernaut has fought against to Surtur:

What is Surtur compared to Cosmic Stranger?

What is Surtur compared to Nightmare?

What is Surtur compared to D'Spayre?

What is Surtur compared to Beyonder?

#38 Posted by Agent9149 (2893 posts) - - Show Bio

The lord of sitting down loses unless someone shows me scans of him doing more than sitting down.

#39 Posted by Outside_85 (8124 posts) - - Show Bio

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning: Well lets see, Spider-Man just dropped him in 9 feet of fast drying concrete, added Sutur has the Twilight Sword so carving him up seems like a perfectly viable option. Finally there is that minor bit that Cyttorak is virtually feat-less outside of the Crimson Cosmos.

#40 Posted by 7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning (3578 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova said:

Cyttorak isn't exactly the best being to use in combat threads.......

Surtur stomps by feats, wins overall (especially due to the Twilight Sword) and Cyttorak hasn't done much outside of his realm. Apart from the Juggernaut stuff, Cyttorak's power was used outside of his realm only to create worshippers, and he was powerless to stop Oblivion from killing Juggernaut via aging him to death.

He never died. Read the real stories behind your statement.

(First read this)

(Then Follow up with this)

You will know for a fact, after reading these two issues that Juggernaut had never died facing Oblivion.

  • The REAL story is that AFTER Eternity banished Juggernaut into Outer Void, Oblivion tried to kill and delete Juggernaut out of existence.
  • Juggernaut escaped from the clutches of Oblivion 3 times.
  • Oblivion had to search for Juggernaut 3 times.
  • Juggernaut reversed his age at will being able to stay young while Oblivion tries to accelerate time.
  • Juggernaut stays young by feeling hate.
  • When Juggernaut escaped the 3rd time, he fought Beast....
  • When Beast pulled off the helmet Juggernaut got scared due to the presence that Xavier might get him.
  • Being scared triggered Cyttorak to depower Juggernaut.
  • Juggernaut was reverted back to old age.
  • Juggernaut did not die.
  • Oblivion told Juggernaut that since he can not die and be deleted, he does not want Juggernaut to corrupt his dimension (Outer Void)
  • Oblivion told Juggernaut that if Juggernaut gives him the knowledge of the magic he used to fight Nightmare, he will let Juggernaut go.
  • Juggernaut agreed to the terms and gave Oblivion his memories of magic spells so they can be deleted from existence.
  • Juggernaut was returned to Earth

(Lastly read this)

Seals the fact that Juggernaut never died when facing Oblivion.

  • Explains that Juggernaut tried to attempt suicide in Outer Void but was unsuccessful.
  • Oblivion itself was unsuccessful to kill Juggernaut so both of them made a deal exchanging the knowledge of Crimson Spells
  • After Juggernaut was returned to Earth
  • He teamed up with Hulk to fight off the U.S Army
  • Hulk and Juggernaut turn against each other only to stalemate
  • The X-Men came
  • And thanks to Hulk knocking off Juggernaut's helmet, Xavier puts Juggernaut to sleep.

These are three issues that support in canon that Juggernaut never once died when he was in Outer Void. And explains:

  1. Nightmare could not kill Juggernaut [[Nightmare was powerful trapping Eternity and destroying Earth (past) and Earth (future) with his bare hands]]
  2. Eternity could not kill Juggernaut [[After Eternity was released by the help of Juggernaut, Eternity's own power wasn't able to kill Juggernaut so he had to summon Oblivion to deal with Juggernaut]]
  3. Oblivion could not kill Juggernaut [[reasons already explained]]

@Outside_85 said:

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning: Well lets see, Spider-Man just dropped him in 9 feet of fast drying concrete, added Sutur has the Twilight Sword so carving him up seems like a perfectly viable option. Finally there is that minor bit that Cyttorak is virtually feat-less outside of the Crimson Cosmos.

A few years later he fought against Spiderman and fell into a 40 feet drop of cement and fell asleep.

  • After Juggernaut escaped his sleep from cement, Selene wanted to take his powers.
  • The Incident started a Bar Fight between Juggernaut and Colossus.

Cyttorak's feat OUTSIDE of Crimson Cosmos

..

Cyttorak sticks his 'fingers' inside the Multiverse to grab a hold of Galactus.

#41 Posted by Jedisupermaster (1112 posts) - - Show Bio

Cyttorak... stomps.

#42 Posted by 7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning (3578 posts) - - Show Bio

@Azathoth_The_Dread_Sleeper said:

We don't even know how powerful Cyttorak is outside his Crimson Cosmos.

This fight will go to Surtur.

He's powerful enough.

a) Surtur is a demon who can potentially destroy the physical aspect of Galaxies with the Twilight Sword.

b) Cyttorak is a universe larger than the Multiverse. He is not a physical being.

Question: How can Surtur cut something that is not physical?

#43 Posted by Azathoth_The_Dread_Sleeper (597 posts) - - Show Bio

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning said:

@Azathoth_The_Dread_Sleeper said:

We don't even know how powerful Cyttorak is outside his Crimson Cosmos.

This fight will go to Surtur.

He's powerful enough.

a) Surtur is a demon who can potentially destroy the physical aspect of Galaxies with the Twilight Sword.

b) Cyttorak is a universe larger than the Multiverse. He is not a physical being.

Question: How can Surtur cut something that is not physical?

Question 1: How did Juggernaut pull out Cyttorak's gem from his forehead?

Question 2: What's to stop Surtur from doing it to Cyttorak?

#44 Posted by 7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning (3578 posts) - - Show Bio

@Azathoth_The_Dread_Sleeper said:

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning said:

@Azathoth_The_Dread_Sleeper said:

We don't even know how powerful Cyttorak is outside his Crimson Cosmos.

This fight will go to Surtur.

He's powerful enough.

a) Surtur is a demon who can potentially destroy the physical aspect of Galaxies with the Twilight Sword.

b) Cyttorak is a universe larger than the Multiverse. He is not a physical being.

Question: How can Surtur cut something that is not physical?

Question 1: How did Juggernaut pull out Cyttorak's gem from his forehead?

Question 2: What's to stop Surtur from doing it to Cyttorak?

Answer: The Gem is metaphorical for power and prize.

Answer 2: Surtur can't because he has to be worthy of Cyttorak's blessing before he can see the gem let alone, "Pull it"

#45 Posted by rondoudou (182 posts) - - Show Bio

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning: i dont know i think cyttorak is a phyiscal being

#46 Posted by rondoudou (182 posts) - - Show Bio

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning:

Galactus was completely depleted, if you read the comic, you would know that Nova stated it herself,Cyttorak cannot destroy universes, unless you prove it otherwise. And worlds do not equal universes, Since when did multi-Universe = dimension?

#47 Posted by New_World_Order (12489 posts) - - Show Bio

Cyttorak.