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#1 Posted by lord_oraculous016 (9282 posts) - - Show Bio

who would win in a battle between these two extra-dimensional beings?

CYTTORAK, RULER OF THE CRIMSON COSMOS

SLORIOTH THE OMNIVOROUS, DESTROYER OF REALITIES..

battle takes place at neutral realms but both participants are in full power..

who would win?

all comments are welcome..

#2 Posted by lord_oraculous016 (9282 posts) - - Show Bio

BUMP..

#3 Posted by czarny_samael666 (17174 posts) - - Show Bio

I won't defend it with my blood, but - Cyttorak ftw. 
 
Slorioth seems to be Universe buster. Cyttorak's power should give more protection than enough for that. 
 
I put him above Vishanti, while Slorioth at the same level as them.

#4 Posted by AlanisMorissette (80 posts) - - Show Bio

LOL Slorioth sounds like a slug. Cyttorak sounds like a rock. Rock > slug?

#5 Posted by Boobster (1608 posts) - - Show Bio

Slorioth.

#6 Posted by Zorn_a_Rust_Red_Scythe (310 posts) - - Show Bio

Slorioth. Cyttorak has not shown that he is at a level high enough to be of great concern to the Vishanti.

#7 Posted by Jedisupermaster (1149 posts) - - Show Bio

Cyttorak wins.

#8 Edited by Killemall (18564 posts) - - Show Bio

At least Slorith has some fighting feats, Cyttorak has 0 (ok 1, where he mocked around Colossus in his realm). I really question the wisdom of having someone like Cyttorak in a fight, whose power level we are totally oblivious about.

#9 Posted by 7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning (3578 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

At least Slorith has some fighting feats, Cyttorak has 0 (ok 1, where he mocked around Colossus in his realm). I really question the wisdom of having someone like Cyttorak in a fight, whose power level we are totally oblivious about.

Slorioth was actually in the same war with Cyttorak, but he didn't want to fight Cyttorak. Instead, he went after the weaker Principalities like Dormammu, but lost. Since Sloroith could not take over the Dark Dimension, he targeted Eternity and almost wrecked Eternity have not been for the Living Tribunal.

The entire War of the 7 Sphere arc pretty much portrayed Slorioth as one of the weaker Extra-Dimensional entities and even the weakest Extra-Dimensional entity has enough power to destroy Eternity.

  • Dormammu beat Slorioth
  • Sloroith almost successfully destroyed Eternity
  • Slorioth, Dormammu, Trinity of Ashes and Vishanti did not want to challenge Cyttorak
  • Farrallah, Balthakk, Ikonn, Raggadorr, Watoomb, Valtorr, Krakkan, Trion all challenged against Cyttorak

The fight lasted for thousands of years, but our HUMAN comprehension can not turn their actions into something we can understand

#10 Posted by fondofpacman (572 posts) - - Show Bio

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning: Can you find scans of eluding to Sloroith chosing to not fight the Principalities or losing to Dormmamu?

Normally I'd say Sloroith wins vs Cyttorak. The Vishanti show up with the LT to get rid of Slorioth--I think that tells me two things.

1) Slorioth is a big deal if LT needs to step in, and I don't recall him ever needing to take out principalities, so I'd say he might be above a principality because of that alone.

2) The Vishanti show up with LT...if they could have beaten him on their own, why would then need LT? So Slorioth seems to be likely above the Vishanti, who are very strong principalities, so again, that's evidence he's above Cyttorak.

#11 Edited by 7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning (3578 posts) - - Show Bio

@fondofpacman said:

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning: Can you find scans of eluding to Sloroith chosing to not fight the Principalities or losing to Dormmamu?

Normally I'd say Sloroith wins vs Cyttorak. The Vishanti show up with the LT to get rid of Slorioth--I think that tells me two things.

1) Slorioth is a big deal if LT needs to step in, and I don't recall him ever needing to take out principalities, so I'd say he might be above a principality because of that alone.

2) The Vishanti show up with LT...if they could have beaten him on their own, why would then need LT? So Slorioth seems to be likely above the Vishanti, who are very strong principalities, so again, that's evidence he's above Cyttorak.

I think you're forgetting the reason why Living Tribunal HAD to step in to intrude the battle.

Slorioth and Vishanti would have destroyed the Multiverse leading to the death of Eternity.

  1. Slorioth DID NOT want to fight the stronger Extra-Dimensional deities. (Deities so large that makes the multiverse unnoticed)
  2. Slorioth used a astral figure of himself just to explore the multiverse that was causing more chaos than Abraxas and when the Vishanti came to stop him, they noticed that if they battled, the death of Eternity would be inevitable.
  3. Before Slorioth targeted the Multiverse, he tried to conquer the Dark Dimension.... He lost.
  4. No, the Vishanti could have beaten Slorioth at the price of the death of Eternity.
  5. Slorioth is weaker than the high tier Extra-Dimensional Deities. Raggaddorr could beat Slorioth. Dormammu, one of the lower tiers of the Extra-Dimension can beat Slorioth.
#12 Posted by Killemall (18564 posts) - - Show Bio

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning said:

Slorioth was actually in the same war with Cyttorak, but he didn't want to fight Cyttorak. Instead, he went after the weaker Principalities like Dormammu, but lost. Since Sloroith could not take over the Dark Dimension, he targeted Eternity and almost wrecked Eternity have not been for the Living Tribunal.

And that changes the fact that cyttorak has 0 fighting feats outside his realm? how?

The entire War of the 7 Sphere arc pretty much portrayed Slorioth as one of the weaker Extra-Dimensional entities and even the weakest Extra-Dimensional entity has enough power to destroy Eternity.

And i didnt say he was weak, i said he has no fighting feats.

  • Dormammu beat Slorioth
  • Sloroith almost successfully destroyed Eternity
  • Slorioth, Dormammu, Trinity of Ashes and Vishanti did not want to challenge Cyttorak
  • Farrallah, Balthakk, Ikonn, Raggadorr, Watoomb, Valtorr, Krakkan, Trion all challenged against Cyttorak

The fight lasted for thousands of years, but our HUMAN comprehension can not turn their actions into something we can understand

0 fighting feats for Cyttorak, and hence we cant make a case. Thats all i am saying.

Also why put stuffs on giant letters ??

#13 Posted by ShootingNova (16979 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall: It'd be like saying TOAA lacks battle feats and thus cannot fight?

The Vishanti (multiversal beings, or at least one of them is) were afraid of Cyttorak, warning Doctor Strange not to mess with his creations. I believe Dormammu (a being who held his own against Eternity) was praying to Cytorrak for power.

Slorioth is on-par with the Vishanti at best. At worst, he fails when compared to them. Cyttorak is powerful enough for the Vishanti to be concerned about facing him.

#14 Posted by Killemall (18564 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova said:

@Killemall: It'd be like saying TOAA lacks battle feats and thus cannot fight?

And did i say anything against it. I think its a horrible Idea to have TOAA in a fight. Lets re-quote what i said, coz you are perhaps the second one who is interpreting it different then what was intended.

At least Slorith has some fighting feats, Cyttorak has 0 (ok 1, where he mocked around Colossus in his realm). I really question the wisdom of having someone like Cyttorak in a fight, whose power level we are totally oblivious about.

I am not saying he CANNOT fight at all, what i am saying is what is the point of having a character in a battle whose abilities we have no clue about. He hasnt been in a single fight.

The Vishanti (multiversal beings, or at least one of them is) were afraid of Cyttorak, warning Doctor Strange not to mess with his creations. I believe Dormammu (a being who held his own against Eternity) was praying to Cytorrak for power.

and in the war of Green Lantern, it was stated on panel, that Spectre is afraid of entities from green lantern corps, are we now saying entities like Butcher and Parallax > Spectre?

Also if you wanna go that way, during Protege saga, Living Tribunal was asking for extra powers from The ancient one, you make your judgement.

Slorioth is on-par with the Vishanti at best. At worst, he fails when compared to them. Cyttorak is powerful enough for the Vishanti to be concerned about facing him.

However you put it that isnt exactly a feat.

#15 Posted by 7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning (3578 posts) - - Show Bio

@fondofpacman:

Innerdimensionsal Reality (Multiverse)

Low-Tier Inner-Dimension:

  • Mephisto
  • Galactus
  • Stranger
  • Pantheons

Mid-Tier Inner-Dimension:

  • Elder Gods
  • Celestials
  • Love and Hate
  • Eon

High-Tier Inner-Dimension:

  • Chaos and Order
  • Eternity and Infinity
  • Death and Oblivion

Top-Tier Inner-Dimension:

  • Living Tribunal

The Splinter Realms Inter-Dimensions:

  • (For the takes of whom ever occupies the vacancies of space.)

Extradimensional Realities (Omniverse)

(The area where the Living Tribunal does NOT safe guard)

Low-Tier Extra-Dimension:

  • Dormammu
  • Umar
  • Rune
  • Zom
  • Slorioth
  • The Hunger
  • Super Ego
  • Cosmic Cube Beings
  • Infinites

Mid-Tier Extra-Dimension:

  • Vishanti
  • Trinity of the Ashes
  • Protege
  • Nebulos
  • Trion
  • Ikkon
  • Valtorr
  • Balthakk
  • Faltine (as the whole entity)
  • Watoomb

High-Tier Extra-Dimension:

  • Farrallah
  • Raggadorr
  • Krakkan
  • Shuma-Gorath

Top-Tier Extra-Dimension:

  • Beyonder
  • Cyttorak
  • Nemesis
#16 Posted by ShootingNova (16979 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

And did i say anything against it. I think its a horrible Idea to have TOAA in a fight.

Yes, but that wasn't my point. Although fights were you get anything from powerless beings to nigh-omnipotent beings get crushed by omnipotent beings. The best you could do is get another omnipotent being, stalemate for TOAA. And that's about it.

Lets re-quote what i said, coz you are perhaps the second one who is interpreting it different then what was intended.

Sure. Hopefully you're not misunderstanding me either.

I am not saying he CANNOT fight at all, what i am saying is what is the point of having a character in a battle whose abilities we have no clue about. He hasnt been in a single fight.

That does not negate the fact that we know how powerful Cyttorak is.

and in the war of Green Lantern, it was stated on panel, that Spectre is afraid of entities from green lantern corps, are we now saying entities like Butcher and Parallax > Spectre?

Also if you wanna go that way, during Protege saga, Living Tribunal was asking for extra powers from The ancient one, you make your judgement.

If you want to do things like that, then we can ignore the praying. It doesn't make a difference.

However you put it that isnt exactly a feat.

It's not a feat, nor did I intend it to be one. But it does show how powerful Cyttorak is. Which is more than Slorioth can handle.

At least Slorith has some fighting feats, Cyttorak has 0 (ok 1, where he mocked around Colossus in his realm). I really question the wisdom of having someone like Cyttorak in a fight, whose power level we are totally oblivious about.

If we know the power level of somebody, feats are not the first priority or necessity.

We do know how powerful Cyttorak is, and that is enough to frighten the Vishanti.

#17 Posted by Killemall (18564 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova said:

Yes, but that wasn't my point. Although fights were you get anything from powerless beings to nigh-omnipotent beings get crushed by omnipotent beings. The best you could do is get another omnipotent being, stalemate for TOAA. And that's about it.

No thats not what i was implying. What i was however saying was do we know the "extent" of TOAA powers. At least, him being a supreme being has no extent, what about cyttorak. Does he have limitation, can he kill LT? How are we to know, can he be beaten by Eternity/ Infinity? how are we to know. We have no idea how powerful he actually is.

Sure. Hopefully you're not misunderstanding me either.

I really hope not , buddy.

That does not negate the fact that we know how powerful Cyttorak is.

Ok so tell me how power is Cyttorak exactly? Coz i sure dont know. And i am hoping you can give me at least something more concrete than people praying him.

If you want to do things like that, then we can ignore the praying. It doesn't make a difference.

My point exactly, prayers dont mean jack about powers. So we should exclude the fact that one is afraid of another entirely.

It's not a feat, nor did I intend it to be one. But it does show how powerful Cyttorak is. Which is more than Slorioth can handle.

and my whole point was it neither show how powerful Cyttorak is, nor does it show anything. Thats not a feat whatsoever. Slorioth actually has a fighting feat, although lost againt Dormammu at least we know he can fight, we dont even know if Cyttorak can even fight. Maybe he is just a giant blob who sits on his chair all day, wait thats exactly what he does.

If we know the power level of somebody, feats are not the first priority or necessity.

We do know how powerful Cyttorak is, and that is enough to frighten the Vishanti.

Two things:

1. If we know someone's power level.

2. So tell me how powerful is Cyttorak exactly?

#18 Posted by Killemall (18564 posts) - - Show Bio

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning said:

@fondofpacman:

Innerdimensionsal Reality (Multiverse)

Low-Tier Inner-Dimension:

  • Mephisto
  • Galactus
  • Stranger
  • Pantheons

Mid-Tier Inner-Dimension:

  • Elder Gods
  • Celestials
  • Love and Hate
  • Eon

High-Tier Inner-Dimension:

  • Chaos and Order
  • Eternity and Infinity
  • Death and Oblivion

Top-Tier Inner-Dimension:

  • Living Tribunal

The Splinter Realms Inter-Dimensions:

  • (For the takes of whom ever occupies the vacancies of space.)

Extradimensional Realities (Omniverse)

(The area where the Living Tribunal does NOT safe guard)

Low-Tier Extra-Dimension:

  • Dormammu
  • Umar
  • Rune
  • Zom
  • Slorioth
  • The Hunger
  • Super Ego
  • Cosmic Cube Beings
  • Infinites

Mid-Tier Extra-Dimension:

  • Vishanti
  • Trinity of the Ashes
  • Protege
  • Nebulos
  • Trion
  • Ikkon
  • Valtorr
  • Balthakk
  • Faltine (as the whole entity)
  • Watoomb

High-Tier Extra-Dimension:

  • Farrallah
  • Raggadorr
  • Krakkan
  • Shuma-Gorath

Top-Tier Extra-Dimension:

  • Beyonder
  • Cyttorak
  • Nemesis

Could i ask you what basis you classified this???

Also is Dormammu actually extradimensional, arent extradimensional entities only 1 in the entire multiverse, we have see 3 different versions of Dormammu till date.

#19 Posted by Zorn_a_Rust_Red_Scythe (310 posts) - - Show Bio

Where does 7am get his crack?

#20 Posted by Killemall (18564 posts) - - Show Bio

@Zorn_a_Rust_Red_Scythe said:

Where does 7am get his crack?

hahahah :) maybe that is what i should be asking :p

#21 Posted by ShootingNova (16979 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

No thats not what i was implying. What i was however saying was do we know the "extent" of TOAA powers. At least, him being a supreme being has no extent, what about cyttorak. Does he have limitation, can he kill LT? How are we to know, can he be beaten by Eternity/ Infinity? how are we to know. We have no idea how powerful he actually is.

All right.

I really hope not , buddy.

I hope not as well.

Ok so tell me how power is Cyttorak exactly? Coz i sure dont know. And i am hoping you can give me at least something more concrete than people praying him.

I suppose he has multiversal power? Or perhaps above.

My point exactly, prayers dont mean jack about powers. So we should exclude the fact that one is afraid of another entirely.

Okay. So we exclude the prayers.

and my whole point was it neither show how powerful Cyttorak is, nor does it show anything. Thats not a feat whatsoever. Slorioth actually has a fighting feat, although lost againt Dormammu at least we know he can fight, we dont even know if Cyttorak can even fight. Maybe he is just a giant blob who sits on his chair all day, wait thats exactly what he does.

A giant blob sitting on a chair all day frightens the Vishanti?

Two things:

Yes?

1. If we know someone's power level.

Well, we kind of know.

2. So tell me how powerful is Cyttorak exactly?

Enough to frighten the Vishanti. So he would be multiversal +

#22 Posted by Killemall (18564 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova said:

All right.

I hope not as well.

cool.

I suppose he has multiversal power? Or perhaps above.

Based on what, he's red and has a awesome chair to sit on?

A giant blob sitting on a chair all day frightens the Vishanti?

Evidently so, the same way entites frightened Spectre (War of Green Lantern), the possibility of interference by Silver Surfer frightened Mistress Death (Infinity Gauntlet Saga), Just like Ereskingal (a thor villian who gets her behind kick by thor) with Quantum Band frightened Lord Chaos and Master Order (Quasar 50) , Galactus being afraid of The Destroyer Armor (The Mighty Thor 06), and so on and so forth.

Thats hardly a feat to show someone powers, a very slim thread to hang on.

Enough to frighten the Vishanti. So he would be multiversal +

Ok lets see.

Last panel on the right, so does that make Destroyer Armor above Galactus in terms of power level? (whom King Thor beat?)

#23 Posted by ShootingNova (16979 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said

@ShootingNova said:

Based on what, he's red and has a awesome chair to sit on?

Possibly :)

Evidently so, the same way entites frightened Spectre (War of Green Lantern), the possibility of interference by Silver Surfer frightened Mistress Death (Infinity Gauntlet Saga), Just like Ereskingal (a thor villian who gets her behind kick by thor) with Quantum Band frightened Lord Chaos and Master Order (Quasar 50) , Galactus being afraid of The Destroyer Armor (The Mighty Thor 06), and so on and so forth.

So you're saying what I said was a misconception?

Thats hardly a feat to show someone powers, a very slim thread to hang on.

I know it's not a feat, I'm just trying to make a case here.

Ok lets see.

Last panel on the right, so does that make Destroyer Armor above Galactus in terms of power level? (whom King Thor beat?)

Because it was a mistaken conception/Galactus was hungry? I know, you can easily apply the same to Cyttorak and the Vishanti's views of him, but it was also multiple others, including Dormammu.

Anyways, Cyttorak has effortlessly crushed Colossus with approximately 1/5 of the PF. It seemed by D'Spayre's speculation that he was more powerful than the Fear Lords, although that doesn't account to much.

I thought he created an entire race?

#24 Posted by Killemall (18564 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova said:

Possibly :)

LOL no arguments there :)

So you're saying what I said was a misconception?

Something similar, i am not saying your argument is entire incorrect, for all we know Cyttorak might actually be more powerful than even what we are thinking. Since the character is essentially removed from the multiverse, writers can assign as much powers to him as they like.

the thing is, those cant be used as a feat.

Because it was a mistaken conception/Galactus was hungry? I know, you can easily apply the same to Cyttorak and the Vishanti's views of him, but it was also multiple others, including Dormammu.

Anyways, Cyttorak has effortlessly crushed Colossus with approximately 1/5 of the PF. It seemed by D'Spayre's speculation that he was more powerful than the Fear Lords, although that doesn't account to much.

I thought he created an entire race?

Galactus wasnt hungry in the given instance (but they i am not arguing it wasnt PIS).

My point was you cant use A is afraid of B to show A is more powerful than B, thats a very bad judge of his powers.

Colossus part took place in his own realm, where he's pretty powerful. I believe i did address that before.

He created an entire race? When was this?

#25 Posted by Bo88gdan (4405 posts) - - Show Bio

Cyttorak

#26 Posted by 7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning (3578 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

And that changes the fact that cyttorak has 0 fighting feats outside his realm? how?

Cyttorak OUTSIDE of his realm. (Part 1)

Cyttorak OUTSIDE of his realm (Part 2)

Cyttorak OUTSIDE of his realm (Part 3)

@Killemall said:

0 fighting feats for Cyttorak, and hence we cant make a case. Thats all i am saying.

Also why put stuffs on giant letters ??

Look up.

@Killemall said:

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning said:

@fondofpacman:

Innerdimensionsal Reality (Multiverse)

Low-Tier Inner-Dimension:

  • Mephisto
  • Galactus
  • Stranger
  • Pantheons

Mid-Tier Inner-Dimension:

  • Elder Gods
  • Celestials
  • Love and Hate
  • Eon

High-Tier Inner-Dimension:

  • Chaos and Order
  • Eternity and Infinity
  • Death and Oblivion

Top-Tier Inner-Dimension:

  • Living Tribunal

The Splinter Realms Inter-Dimensions:

  • (For the takes of whom ever occupies the vacancies of space.)

Extradimensional Realities (Omniverse)

(The area where the Living Tribunal does NOT safe guard)

Low-Tier Extra-Dimension:

  • Dormammu
  • Umar
  • Rune
  • Zom
  • Slorioth
  • The Hunger
  • Super Ego
  • Cosmic Cube Beings
  • Infinites

Mid-Tier Extra-Dimension:

  • Vishanti
  • Trinity of the Ashes
  • Protege
  • Nebulos
  • Trion
  • Ikkon
  • Valtorr
  • Balthakk
  • Faltine (as the whole entity)
  • Watoomb

High-Tier Extra-Dimension:

  • Farrallah
  • Raggadorr
  • Krakkan
  • Shuma-Gorath

Top-Tier Extra-Dimension:

  • Beyonder
  • Cyttorak
  • Nemesis

Could i ask you what basis you classified this???

Also is Dormammu actually extradimensional, arent extradimensional entities only 1 in the entire multiverse, we have see 3 different versions of Dormammu till date.

They are all the same Dormammu. Only displayed by astral projections.

#27 Posted by 7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning (3578 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@ShootingNova said:

Possibly :)

LOL no arguments there :)

So you're saying what I said was a misconception?

Something similar, i am not saying your argument is entire incorrect, for all we know Cyttorak might actually be more powerful than even what we are thinking. Since the character is essentially removed from the multiverse, writers can assign as much powers to him as they like.

the thing is, those cant be used as a feat.

Because it was a mistaken conception/Galactus was hungry? I know, you can easily apply the same to Cyttorak and the Vishanti's views of him, but it was also multiple others, including Dormammu.

Anyways, Cyttorak has effortlessly crushed Colossus with approximately 1/5 of the PF. It seemed by D'Spayre's speculation that he was more powerful than the Fear Lords, although that doesn't account to much.

I thought he created an entire race?

Galactus wasnt hungry in the given instance (but they i am not arguing it wasnt PIS).
My point was you cant use A is afraid of B to show A is more powerful than B, thats a very bad judge of his powers.
Colossus part took place in his own realm, where he's pretty powerful. I believe i did address that before.
He created an entire race? When was this?

ShootingNova is not using ABC Logic.

The Vishianti would rather fight Shuma-Gorath than Cyttorak. And they HAVE fought Shuma-Gorath and took all 3 of them just to stalemate it.

However, they don't ever want to challenge Cyttorak, because Cyttorak has the power to negate their power. (Cited: Strange Tales #44)

Apparently, Cyttorak has the aura to that has a multiplier by 0 (zero) so anyone that 'fights' Cyttorak, their power level is times 0 (zero).

Ex:

  • 100 x 0 = ______
  • 1000 x 0 = ______
  • 10000 x 0 = ______
  • 9999999999 x 0 = _______
#28 Posted by Killemall (18564 posts) - - Show Bio

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning said:

Cyttorak OUTSIDE of his realm. (Part 1)

Cyttorak OUTSIDE of his realm (Part 2)

Cyttorak OUTSIDE of his realm (Part 3)

If you wanna show him fighting would you mind showing more than one scans coz they dont look like they are from same issue. Also is the person on scan 1 cyttorak, doesnt look anything like it. Would you have the issue no?

Second scan i cant even see.

Can you post full scans, rather than one page, or one or two panels, its easier to read.

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning said:

They are all the same Dormammu. Only displayed by astral projections.

I dont think they are, any reason to believe Dormammu from 616 universe is the same as Dormammu from Ultimate Universe and Dormammu from Mangaverse? Coz they dont even look alike. While i assume Dormammu from Zombie verse is the same as 616 Universe.

Also i asked what basis did you form that list form?

Galactus > Celestial and Eon (who Galactus almost had for lunch, he did the same with Epooch, or however you spell that), you put them are different leagues altogether.

And arent all abstract meant to be around same power level, why would shire hate and mistress love be in a completely different league .

#29 Posted by Killemall (18564 posts) - - Show Bio

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning said:

ShootingNova is not using ABC Logic.

The Vishianti would rather fight Shuma-Gorath than Cyttorak. And they HAVE fought Shuma-Gorath and took all 3 of them just to stalemate it.

However, they don't ever want to challenge Cyttorak, because Cyttorak has the power to negate their power. (Cited: Strange Tales #44)

Apparently, Cyttorak has the aura to that has a multiplier by 0 (zero) so anyone that 'fights' Cyttorak, their power level is times 0 (zero).

Ex:

  • 100 x 0 = ______
  • 1000 x 0 = ______
  • 10000 x 0 = ______
  • 9999999999 x 0 = _______

And how is THAT a feat?

Superboy prime choose to fight as many GL as there might be (32 is what he ended up killing) instead of kid flash, now are we saying Kid flash >>> all those GLs?

I mean come on , thats just not a feat.

Also stop typing on giant letters :p i'll kill u.

#30 Posted by 7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning (3578 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning said:

Cyttorak OUTSIDE of his realm. (Part 1)

Cyttorak OUTSIDE of his realm (Part 2)

Cyttorak OUTSIDE of his realm (Part 3)

If you wanna show him fighting would you mind showing more than one scans coz they dont look like they are from same issue. Also is the person on scan 1 cyttorak, doesnt look anything like it. Would you have the issue no?

Second scan i cant even see.

Can you post full scans, rather than one page, or one or two panels, its easier to read.

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning said:

They are all the same Dormammu. Only displayed by astral projections.

I dont think they are, any reason to believe Dormammu from 616 universe is the same as Dormammu from Ultimate Universe and Dormammu from Mangaverse? Coz they dont even look alike. While i assume Dormammu from Zombie verse is the same as 616 Universe.

Also i asked what basis did you form that list form?

Galactus > Celestial and Eon (who Galactus almost had for lunch, he did the same with Epooch, or however you spell that), you put them are different leagues altogether.

And arent all abstract meant to be around same power level, why would shire hate and mistress love be in a completely different league .

I keep telling you. The 1st scan is from War of the 7 Sphere Arc. It takes place outside of the Multiverse because the entities are so big.

Similar to:

Also, Cyttorak has more than one form (ASPECT). He can look like anything you want. Or it wants....

They are all the same Dormammus. He can spread his image across the multiverse with just using astral projections. (Ethereal Holograms of himself)

Also i asked what basis did you form that list form?
Galactus > Celestial and Eon (who Galactus almost had for lunch, he did the same with Epooch, or however you spell that), you put them are different leagues altogether.
And arent all abstract meant to be around same power level, why would shire hate and mistress love be in a completely different league .

That list is provided at base form levels.

Galactus base form is weaker than any Celestial

If Galactus eats, he gets stronger... the more he eats, the stronger he gets...

Use Goku for example:

  • Base Form: Planet Buster
  • Channeling Ki: The more he takes, the stronger he gets.
#31 Posted by Zorn_a_Rust_Red_Scythe (310 posts) - - Show Bio

Okay, it's clear now that Lance Bastro is back on a new account.

That explains everything :)

On topic - Slorioth stomps.

#32 Posted by Killemall (18564 posts) - - Show Bio

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning said:

I keep telling you. The 1st scan is from War of the 7 Sphere Arc. It takes place outside of the Multiverse because the entities are so big.

I apparently cant find the story arc, so would you be kind enough to post the entire battle rather than 1 panel, that makes it a lot easier to see and assess what happen.

And why out of random did you choose to post a video from Man in Black ?? LOL

Also, Cyttorak has more than one form (ASPECT). He can look like anything you want. Or it wants....

They are all the same Dormammus. He can spread his image across the multiverse with just using astral projections. (Ethereal Holograms of himself)

Good for Cyttorak.

Any thing to back it up?? OR is it just a fan made assumption. Coz i honestly see absolutely no connection there

That list is provided at base form levels.

Galactus base form is weaker than any Celestial

If Galactus eats, he gets stronger... the more he eats, the stronger he gets...

Use Goku for example:

  • Base Form: Planet Buster
  • Channeling Ki: The more he takes, the stronger he gets.

Again with the giant font, can we not have a debate with "normal fonts" ?

Also by base from do you mean, starving and dying?

Also anything to prove Celestials > Galactus?

He outlasted an entire celestial hoards during Annihilation, he has better feats (tripple solar system busting attack), and killed 2 celestials recently (while initially he had fed on 4 planets, that does not apply after he was brought back to life via Franklin Richards.

And since Galactus =/= Goku, i am going to ignore the DBZ reference.

#33 Edited by Jedisupermaster (1149 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning said:

ShootingNova is not using ABC Logic.

The Vishianti would rather fight Shuma-Gorath than Cyttorak. And they HAVE fought Shuma-Gorath and took all 3 of them just to stalemate it.

However, they don't ever want to challenge Cyttorak, because Cyttorak has the power to negate their power. (Cited: Strange Tales #44)

Apparently, Cyttorak has the aura to that has a multiplier by 0 (zero) so anyone that 'fights' Cyttorak, their power level is times 0 (zero).

Ex:

  • 100 x 0 = ______
  • 1000 x 0 = ______
  • 10000 x 0 = ______
  • 9999999999 x 0 = _______

And how is THAT a feat?

Superboy prime choose to fight as many GL as there might be (32 is what he ended up killing) instead of kid flash, now are we saying Kid flash >>> all those GLs?

I mean come on , thats just not a feat.

Also stop typing on giant letters :p i'll kill u.

Well, yeah. Kid Flash can beat all those GLs, if they'll be near surface of planet, you know.

And Cyttorak is still a powerful entity. He is a ruler of demention with limitless energy and you probably remember what Trion Juggs did with only fraction of his power - he was destroying dementional barriers and shattering dementions (he also would destroy one if he wasnt stoped, as i remember). You probably remember about Juggs durability and thats all because of Cyttorak. Now imagine how powerful Cyttorak is and how indistructible and unstoppable he would be outside his realm.

#34 Posted by Killemall (18564 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jedisupermaster said:

Well, yeah. Kid Flash can beat all those GLs, if they'll be near surface of planet, you know.

I disagree, while i would believe Wally West for one could do it, i dont believe Kid Flash (Bart Allen) could do that at all. He's not even FLT, or wasnt at that time (be became FLT after Flash: The fastest Man alive after taking the mantle of Flash quite recently)

And Cyttorak is still a powerful entity. He is a ruler of demention with limitless energy and you probably remember what Trion Juggs did with only fraction of his power - he was destroying dementional barriers and shattering dementions (he also would destroy one if he wasnt stoped, as i remember). You probably remember about Juggs durability and thats all because of Cyttorak. Now imagine how powerful Cyttorak is and how indistructible and unstoppable he would be outside his realm.

While i have never disagreed Cyttorak is powerful, what i am however saying is, using him in a battle is a bad idea, because we have little to no clue to the extent of his powers. Note, if you read my post i have never said who wins, all i said was Slorioth for one has fought and lost to Dormammu, which lets us gauge where he stands. We dont know this about Cyttorak.

Also the issue seem to say he merged with the gem, so he had the full power of the gem, not sure how gem compares with the entire cyttorak though. Again, i am not saying he is weak, i am sure we dont know how far he stands. Its like trying to judge a guardian's power seeing how GL perform.

#35 Posted by ShootingNova (16979 posts) - - Show Bio

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning: Actually Cyttorak is below Shuma-Gorath, at least when it's in it's own dimension.

@Killemall said:

LOL no arguments there :)

I'd torture you if there was one :P

Something similar, i am not saying your argument is entire incorrect, for all we know Cyttorak might actually be more powerful than even what we are thinking. Since the character is essentially removed from the multiverse, writers can assign as much powers to him as they like.

LOL.

the thing is, those cant be used as a feat.

Not everything has to be a feat. Again, I already admitted twice that it was not a feat.

Galactus wasnt hungry in the given instance (but they i am not arguing it wasnt PIS).

Okay.

My point was you cant use A is afraid of B to show A is more powerful than B, thats a very bad judge of his powers.

Ummm.... what? You mean I shouldn't use A is afraid of B to show B is more powerful than A, right? Because someone who is afraid of someone else is more powerful?

Colossus part took place in his own realm, where he's pretty powerful. I believe i did address that before.

Yes, but he effortlessly did so. So even if the Colossus PF got multiplied by five (the entire Phoenix Force) I'm pretty sure Cyttorak would still win.

He created an entire race? When was this?

I thought he created a race of elves/magicians/whatever they were to worship him? I just read if off the Internet.

#36 Posted by fondofpacman (572 posts) - - Show Bio

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning: So Cyttorak's up there with the Beyonder eh? You got greedy.

Cyttorak's likely around the same level as the other Octessence Principalities, if he wasn't, they wouldn't be holding contests to determine who's the most powerful among them, and I don't see anything to imply that classic Dormammu isn't right up there with them. I've actually got too many issues with that list to name so I'll just stop here. Take a step back and really look at this, do you really think the writers intended for Cyttorak to be up there with Beyonder? That's delusional.

But yes, I remember the scan now where the Vishanti talk about how their fight with Slorioth would cause too much damage, so I'll concede my earlier point about that suggesting that Slorioth being stronger than principalities...but it doesn't mean the Vishanti are above Slorioth either; rather, it probably implies that they're close in terms of power since the Vishanti can't handle this without making a mess of things. (scan below...as if you couldn't notice it)

"However, they don't ever want to challenge Cyttorak, because Cyttorak has the power to negate their power. (Cited: Strange Tales #44)"

And provide scans where the Vishanti say this...although I'm not expecting to see any.

#37 Posted by Simon_the_digger (2949 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jedisupermaster said:

Cyttorak wins.

#38 Posted by 7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning (3578 posts) - - Show Bio

@Zorn_a_Rust_Red_Scythe: Since you brought it up, let's post one of his posts.

@Killemall: @fondofpacman: @ShootingNova:

fact: one celestial can over come a skyfather with relative ease.

Ashema
just a hand full of celestiels

a hand full of celestiels attack odin's and zeus' realms. in defense after the rest of the other sky fathers lost, asgard united all occupants including odin (except thor) into the destroyer armor as a final resort.

the odin sword destroyer....
was no match...
for the celestiels..
even as thor tries to aid destroyer to no prevail...
ODIN SWORD destroyer is defeated...

note: the scans up above are the weaker celestials. as compared to the ones above galactus

The Beyonder and The Guardians of the Galaxy suddenly find themselves in the palm of...SCATHAN!

for those that do NOT know who the boy that scathan is holding is, his name is protege!! protege is the nigh omnipotent that copies other neigh omnipotents and stacks their powers under himself to be closer to true omnipotence.

protege defeats beyonder and the living tribunal in the power game....
and they are nothing but small fries to him....

yet... scanthan defeated protege!

however, in spite of this, scathan is known as a being of the hyperspace area of "inner-dimension". so therefore he shares the same reality under the multiverse with the living tribunal all the way down the ladder to the skyfather and then to the demigods and demons (odin, nightmare, doramarru, despyare, mephisto etc...)

note: the living tribunal acts as the scale that keeps each universe within the multiverse in order and tries to protect that order from loosing its balance. scathan is basically the peripheral of that scale that acts like a fail switch device when living tribunal fails to over rule his decision.

the omniverse and extra-dimension.

the extra dimensional plane is the space that floats around the multiverse inside the omniverse.

the schematics might make you understand.

this is the universe... around the sphere is the barrior known as the crunch wall so that the galaxies etc doesn't fly out into the extra dimensional plane into the omniverse.

its the reality of space-time continuum. everything is inside it. in marvel, one universe is namely the essences of eternity and infinity. within it is time and space (space includes sub and hyper)

there are pockets within these space that are hidden (sub-space). in marvel, there dwells deity entities. let's call them the inner-dimensional beings. for instance, mephisto, loki, zeus, dormamuu etc.. then there are the entities that live in hyperspace within the universe like the celestriels. and then the abstracts of the universe whom exist everywhere and nowhere within the universe (death etc...)

this is how a parallel universe is stringed together by time.

consisting of 616, 1610, 811, 2949, 94831, what-if comics.... etc... the living tribunal manages these and all of these universe combined is eternity times many (multi-eternity) with its abstract brothers and sisters. every reality branches off to different realities due to the cause & effect paradox of quantum theory. (what-if comics and other parallel comics like astonishing x-men and ultimate x-men are a prime example)

that's the crimson universe displaced by normal reality. marvel already mentioned that it is a space with "no time", therefore it is not linked to the multiverse and their pockets.

let me add malibu comics in here, where the crimson cosmos is able to effect it, while Living Tribunal nor any other marvel abstract (but NEMESIS) can not. don't mind shuma gorath; he will be mentioned later on.

and that cyttorak was well influenced between marvel and malibu which not even the Living Tribunal can not influence.

any extra dimensional entity is far above the inner dimensional powerhouses save for living tribunal or possibly protege, PR beyonder and all of the inner dimensional defenses known as the celestiels. inner dimensional entities like mephisto, loki, odin, dormarru, atum, etc are not higher than beings that control the out space portions of the marvel continuity.

rune was a minor extra dimensional being which the living tribunal could not affect to stop him from stealing the soul gem from the marvel continuity so tribunal summons dr. strange due to strange's ties with the outside dimension.

further more, the living tribunal did not even want to show its face at the presence of extra dimensional parasite destroying hundreds of universes within the marvel multiverse

so tribunal had the power to scare away zom jut for threatening the universe, but he can't do the same thing when shuma actually did consume "hundreds of realities" within and out of the multiverse?

who is nemesis and why did living tribunal fear it and why he couldn't he stop rune from stealing the infinity gems?

i would also like to mention about the extra dimensional entity named NEMESIS whom extra dimensional minor rune help to bring back to existence.

thanos already proved that with just 6 of the infinite gems the living tribunal took a whole series to nagate! and thanos was virtually in control with everything within the marvel universe save outside in the extra dimensional plane. however; the 7th gem ('ego') completed the sentient known as nemesis who is btw the mother of marvel's entire creation. the living tribunal did not want her to be revived wich is why only the ego gem exist in the malibu continuity, and not marvel's. so in essance, cyttorak and nemesis are somewhat related along with the living tribunal and other abstracts out side of the inner dimensional plane. of course however, entities like nemesis and her extra dimensional reletives are so powerful that only PIS can defeat them. she was defeated pretty much the same way juggernaut "defeated" cyttorak in his trails. but despite of all that, nemesis was the ultimate god right under TOAA. she was the seed that bursted and created the entire omniverse of marvel AND malibu.

why is this relevant? well, apparently when nemesis spread her power through out the omniverse, she sprouted abstract sentient beings. living tribunal among them, but who are the rest of them? cyttorak and the octessence have too vague a past to pin point exactly how they came to be, but marvel has given hints that these beings were created before time hence why the crimson cosmos is timeless AND vast.

fact: nemesis is the living tribunal superior

sorcerer supreme! the most powerful mortal that ever existed in marvel next to siseg-neg! and shuma gorath the entity that nearly devoured the infinite multiverse along with the omniverse.

genesis
sorcerer supreme
shuma gorath

three beings that achieved higher than living tribunal status.

fact:

  • shuma gorath had devoured hundrends of realities parallel to 616 where the living tribunal was helpless to contain
  • genesis manages to contain shuma gorath prime and put it to sleep before recotconning the 616 universe and it's branches of parallel realities.
  • dr. strange manages to contain shuma after it awakens and then manages to destroy it thanks to shuma gorath's own TRANS-INFINITE power.

do you know what those three facts mean????

it means that all three of them are more powerful than the living tribunal! period.

why?

let's look back at protege and scathan.

protege is a inner-dimensional entity. he resides in the 616 universe, yet manages to over come the living tribunal. if it wasn't for scathan, the entire multiverse would had been replaced in protege's hands.

fact:

  • protege is more powerful than the living tribunal and PR beyonder
  • scathan DID NOT approve of this and protege lost all his powers and everything in the multiverse was restored and protege disappeared .... forever.....
  • the living tribunal, scathan and the celstiels could not defend multi-eternity from shuma gorath feeding off of him and gaining 'TRANS-INFINITE' power.

but this does not say anything about how power cyttorak is. dr. strange can not defeat galactus and nor can cyttorak.. mikaboshi can defeat odin and galactus!

this is a foolish assumption. galactus had been defeated and killed by much powerful beings with relative ease! observes. dr. strange uses the spell of the extra-dimensional plane on galactus.

dr. doom vs galactus and odin! and thanos ADMITS how dangerous dr. doom can be!

this is guy that thanos must always never let his guard down, thus said in IW too. and when he siphoned the power of galactus, he utilizes it better than galactus.

has a better fight against odin than thanos did

PR beyonder ADMITS that dr. doom is too dangerous to exist and still can not banish him! beyonder has to fight him in physical form just to fight him.

galactus helpless under the mercy of cyttorak!

how does this make cyttorak stronger than the living tribunal?

before dr. strange absorbed alot of the most powerful beings in the universe and bored powers and artifacts from several extra-dimensional deities like cyttorak and fought with shuma gorath, dr. strange had already fought the a "living tribunal amped in-betweener AND the LIVING TRIBUNAL itself. (using just a few octessence's & the vishanti's power ALONE.

fact:

  • dr. strange was so powerful that he was disturbing the balance of power in the universe that the living tribunal ruled that dr. strange must be stopped
  • the living tribunal amps up the in-betweener to fight dr. strange.
  • in-betweener lost.
  • the living tribunal fights dr. strange itself
  • living tribunal's neigh-omnipotent reality warping powers do not work so the living tribunal has a contest with dr. strange on WHO CAN INVOKE MORE POWER FROM THE EXTRA DIMENSIONAL PLANE (namely the octessence!)
  • strange and tribunal agree on a temporary truths.
  • strange won.
  • then shuma gorath shows up.

who are raggadorr and seraphim and why is the living tribunal calling to them to invoke their power?

1st off, let us define the word "INVOKE".

in·voke

–verb (used with object), -voked, -vok·ing.1.to call for with earnest desire; make supplication or pray for: to invoke God's mercy.

2.to call on (a deity, Muse, etc.), as in prayer or supplication.

3.to declare to be binding or in effect: to invoke the law; to invoke a veto.

4.to appeal to, as for confirmation.

5.to petition or call on for help or aid.

6.to call forth or upon (a spirit) by incantation.

7.to cause, call forth, or bring about.

raggadorr and the seraphim are both extra-dimension deities of the extra-dimensional plane. raggadorr being one of the octessence. knowing that dr. strange had tipped the scale of power in large degree, the living tribunal could not simply use it's use power to simply cancel powers, let alone, blink dr. strange out of existence so he needed the extra power to fight dr. strange.

soooo... does this mean the raggadorr and the seraphim are stronger than cyttorak?

well... let's see......

it is known inside the marvel HQ, that cyttorak is the champion of the extra-dimensional plane. according to the vishanti, cyttorak almost conquered the entire extra-dimension, but instead took a chunk out of it to claim all his own. no deity in existence of the extra-dimensional plane wish to challenge cyttorak alone. in the scan above, you can see just how helpless dr. strange is inside the extra-dimensional plane where lives these deities.

fact: cyttorak is far stronger more powerful compared to the vishanti, seraphim, trion, zom, raggadorr AND the rest of the octessence!

raggadorr and the octessence onvine cyttorak to wager on a contest of power using avatars....

note: juggernaut solos the entire octessence's exemplars

note 2: each of these exemplars are significantly stronger than thor by a large margin

keep in mind that these powers presented to you are mere fraction of a fraction of a fraction of these deities powers.

well, what else can this so called infinite power do?

the trion recognizes that the power of the crimson cosmos was the ONLY power that could destroy their extra dimensional universe.

despyare was utilizing juggernaut's portion of power to larger effects.

means this....

entities that juggernaut has battled with and could not destroy him.

  • nightmare (who in that arc defeated eternity)
  • d'spyare (who had the power to control the universe w/o the IG)
  • dr. strange (who was powerful enough to negate the IG and truths with the living tribunal as sorerer supreme, but he needed help from cyttorak to defeat the juggernaut)
  • obvion (who is the master of the gateway to nothingness can not blink juggernaut out of existence)
  • doramarru (who was trying to hide from the juggernaut because doramarru knows he's bad news)
  • thor (who could not defeat the juggernaut so he have to summon the odinforce to open a portal that juggernaut accidently fell into and got back out after ruling the dimension of limbo)
  • beyonder who could not blink juggernaut out of existence so he left him on an asteroid in some unknown part of space.

fact: mikaboshi managed to killed nightmare, but juggernaut with only a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of cyttorak's power was enough to make a complete fool out of nightmare inside nightmare's own realm.

despayre believes that using the crimson magic was the only way to kill the juggernaut, but apparently cyttorak favors cain more.

who invokes cyttorak's power?

  • dr. strange
  • juggernaut
  • dormamarru
  • zom
  • dr. doom
  • mordo
  • umar
  • azrael
  • living tribunal

elder gods of earth vs the elder deities of the extra-dimentional plane.

  • demogorge can scare the elder gods of earth
  • the elder gods are no match for the vishanti
  • the vishanti are hardly a match for the octassence
  • the octessence are weaker than cyttorak

fact: parallel universe to 616 (within the multiverse) elder god set was expanding his dimension until agamotto trapped set inside the eye of agamotto there for all eternity due to quasars sacrafice.

what about dr. strange who who arrogantly fought with the living tribunal? can he arrogantly fight cyttorak the same?

the answer is NO ...

cyttorak was so powerful that all of strange's powers where simply negated. remember, the vishanti had already told strange prior to meeting with cyttorak, that they will not aid him if or whenever he encountered cyttorak. even the seraphim who help living tribunal reflect the powers of raggadorr did not want to help dr. strange.

why?

because everyone of them are scared of him!

let's see how we know it's true...

INFINITY WAR. Dr. Strange. Living Tribunal. and CYTTORAK.

the time when dr. strange encountered cyttorak was during the middle of the INFINITY WAR. cyttorak uses a plan to kill two birds with one stone by using dr. strange to call in the juggernaut

in the infinity war. the living tribunal took a whole series negate the power of the Infinity Gauntlet! warning thanos more than twice to stop using the infinty gems and turn them over. on the other hand, during the entire series dr. strange negated the infinity gauntlet twice! and defended himself from each individual gem some time before.

another proof that the extra-dimensional plane > overshadows anything inside the inner-dimension.

a guy who has the power to negate the IG vs the crimson cosmos

figuring a solution by humbly negotiating with cyttorak and not even daring to insult him by any possible way just makes this sorcerer supreme look like a taco supreme before one who is truly THAT MIGHTY.

hence....

convinced yet?

let's recap...

from this!

to this!

so i ask again.....

can mikaboshi defeat the living tribunal?????

if not, then mikaboshi is way inferior to cyttorak.

@ShootingNova said:

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning: Actually Cyttorak is below Shuma-Gorath, at least when it's in it's own dimension.

How? Strange beat Shuma, but couldn't with Cyttorak

Why does Marvel say Cyttorak is stronger?

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning said:

Cyttorak is above Shuma-Gorath stated by Marvel and supported by Marvel through the Vishanti and Ancient One.

Brevoort also knows about this. (Current Marvel Executive)

shuma gorath

cyttorak

#39 Posted by Jedisupermaster (1149 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@Jedisupermaster said:

Well, yeah. Kid Flash can beat all those GLs, if they'll be near surface of planet, you know.

I disagree, while i would believe Wally West for one could do it, i dont believe Kid Flash (Bart Allen) could do that at all. He's not even FLT, or wasnt at that time (be became FLT after Flash: The fastest Man alive after taking the mantle of Flash quite recently)

And Cyttorak is still a powerful entity. He is a ruler of demention with limitless energy and you probably remember what Trion Juggs did with only fraction of his power - he was destroying dementional barriers and shattering dementions (he also would destroy one if he wasnt stoped, as i remember). You probably remember about Juggs durability and thats all because of Cyttorak. Now imagine how powerful Cyttorak is and how indistructible and unstoppable he would be outside his realm.

While i have never disagreed Cyttorak is powerful, what i am however saying is, using him in a battle is a bad idea, because we have little to no clue to the extent of his powers. Note, if you read my post i have never said who wins, all i said was Slorioth for one has fought and lost to Dormammu, which lets us gauge where he stands. We dont know this about Cyttorak.

Also the issue seem to say he merged with the gem, so he had the full power of the gem, not sure how gem compares with the entire cyttorak though. Again, i am not saying he is weak, i am sure we dont know how far he stands. Its like trying to judge a guardian's power seeing how GL perform.

Well, Cyttorak probably doesnt have some fighting experience (although i remember him confrontating with Octeccence...), but he is definetly more powerfull then Slorioth. Because if only an avatar of him can make such things... By the way, i want to know how Slorioth will be able to hurt Cyttorak.

#40 Posted by ThanoStomp (788 posts) - - Show Bio

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning said:

Cliff notes please. Kidding, but really, sum that up for me because it appears you are saying that the only entities above Cyttorak are Nemesis and the The One Above All (not the Celestial).

Also, I thought the Crimson Cosmos was always referred to by Marvel as a dimension, which implies it is part of a Multiverse/Universe, inside the Omniverse. Marvel Handbook states that dimensions are "realms" inside a Universe.

#41 Posted by fondofpacman (572 posts) - - Show Bio

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning:

Before I make rebuttals, I'll say thanks for posting those exemplar fight scans. That actually seems like a cool saga, and I wasn't expecting Spidey to show up in this one...might needa order those issues online. But I'm still waiting on the scan where the Vishanti mention how Cyttorak could have conquered the multiverse or omniverse or whatever though.

If anything it looks like Raggaddor is the strongest principality. Raggaddor's exemplar's primary power is the building of mystic technology, raw mystic strength seems a secondary characteristic, which still seemed enough to be on par with Juggernaut and simultaneously resist Bedlam's mental attacks...this is also while the other exemplars are less experienced with their powers than Cain who's had his power for decades. Also, the Living Tribunal invoked Raggaddor against Classic Strange, when he could have invoked Cyttorak.

And just to clear this up, the Living Tribunal is not a "good guy". He pops in and gets involved when he thinks he needs to fix some sort of imbalance in the omniverse, that's his thing, not saving universes from destruction. An example of LT's indifference was when he chose not to get involved when Thanos threatened to conquer/destroy 616--it was no concern to him since Thanos committed no cosmic "crime", and LT mentioned that the conquering of the 616 universe (the usurping of Eternity) would just be a form of natural selection. LT will let Shuma go on conquering universes since it isn't throwing anything out of balance; there's nothing to suggest that LT was ever harmed by or scared-off by either Protege or Shuma. Zom's evil energy release via Classic Strange, however, threatened to bring omniversal imbalance; that's why he stepped in there. And when did Zom ever invoke Cyttorak?

And the opinions of a current Marvel exec does not sway me. The editor in chief said himself that he thinks Odin is created the universe and can beat the Phoenix Force, so many of the current heads of Marvel are ignorant to the classic hierarchy that their senior writers/editors have established.

#42 Posted by TheSecondOpinion (614 posts) - - Show Bio

@fondofpacman said:

And the opinions of a current Marvel exec does not sway me. The editor in chief said himself that he thinks Odin is created the universe and can beat the Phoenix Force, so many of the current heads of Marvel are ignorant to the classic hierarchy that their senior writers/editors have established.

If you are talking about Tom Brevoort, he's the most credible guy in Marvel right now since Stan Lee, having been a fan and reader of Marvel before entering they company over 20 years ago. So yes, Tom saying that Cyttorak is above Shuma is solid, because he was working with the writers back in 88 or 89'. Tom is the Executive...

Alex Alonso is the Editor-in-Chief.....

Alex only been with Marvel since 00'., but before that, he was a dedicated DC Editor. Him and Joe Quasada were both DC Editors.

#43 Posted by OneDoesNotSimplyWalkIntoMordor (117 posts) - - Show Bio

One does not simply enter the Crimson Cosmos and expect to see a man sitting in a chair and live to tell about it.

#44 Posted by OneDoesNotSimplyWalkIntoMordor (117 posts) - - Show Bio

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning said:

@Zorn_a_Rust_Red_Scythe: Since you brought it up, let's post one of his posts.

@Killemall: @fondofpacman: @ShootingNova:

fact: one celestial can over come a skyfather with relative ease.

Ashema
just a hand full of celestiels

a hand full of celestiels attack odin's and zeus' realms. in defense after the rest of the other sky fathers lost, asgard united all occupants including odin (except thor) into the destroyer armor as a final resort.

the odin sword destroyer....
was no match...
for the celestiels..
even as thor tries to aid destroyer to no prevail...
ODIN SWORD destroyer is defeated...

note: the scans up above are the weaker celestials. as compared to the ones above galactus

The Beyonder and The Guardians of the Galaxy suddenly find themselves in the palm of...SCATHAN!

for those that do NOT know who the boy that scathan is holding is, his name is protege!! protege is the nigh omnipotent that copies other neigh omnipotents and stacks their powers under himself to be closer to true omnipotence.

protege defeats beyonder and the living tribunal in the power game....
and they are nothing but small fries to him....

yet... scanthan defeated protege!

however, in spite of this, scathan is known as a being of the hyperspace area of "inner-dimension". so therefore he shares the same reality under the multiverse with the living tribunal all the way down the ladder to the skyfather and then to the demigods and demons (odin, nightmare, doramarru, despyare, mephisto etc...)

note: the living tribunal acts as the scale that keeps each universe within the multiverse in order and tries to protect that order from loosing its balance. scathan is basically the peripheral of that scale that acts like a fail switch device when living tribunal fails to over rule his decision.

the omniverse and extra-dimension.

the extra dimensional plane is the space that floats around the multiverse inside the omniverse.

the schematics might make you understand.

this is the universe... around the sphere is the barrior known as the crunch wall so that the galaxies etc doesn't fly out into the extra dimensional plane into the omniverse.

its the reality of space-time continuum. everything is inside it. in marvel, one universe is namely the essences of eternity and infinity. within it is time and space (space includes sub and hyper)

there are pockets within these space that are hidden (sub-space). in marvel, there dwells deity entities. let's call them the inner-dimensional beings. for instance, mephisto, loki, zeus, dormamuu etc.. then there are the entities that live in hyperspace within the universe like the celestriels. and then the abstracts of the universe whom exist everywhere and nowhere within the universe (death etc...)

this is how a parallel universe is stringed together by time.

consisting of 616, 1610, 811, 2949, 94831, what-if comics.... etc... the living tribunal manages these and all of these universe combined is eternity times many (multi-eternity) with its abstract brothers and sisters. every reality branches off to different realities due to the cause & effect paradox of quantum theory. (what-if comics and other parallel comics like astonishing x-men and ultimate x-men are a prime example)

that's the crimson universe displaced by normal reality. marvel already mentioned that it is a space with "no time", therefore it is not linked to the multiverse and their pockets.

let me add malibu comics in here, where the crimson cosmos is able to effect it, while Living Tribunal nor any other marvel abstract (but NEMESIS) can not. don't mind shuma gorath; he will be mentioned later on.

and that cyttorak was well influenced between marvel and malibu which not even the Living Tribunal can not influence.

any extra dimensional entity is far above the inner dimensional powerhouses save for living tribunal or possibly protege, PR beyonder and all of the inner dimensional defenses known as the celestiels. inner dimensional entities like mephisto, loki, odin, dormarru, atum, etc are not higher than beings that control the out space portions of the marvel continuity.

rune was a minor extra dimensional being which the living tribunal could not affect to stop him from stealing the soul gem from the marvel continuity so tribunal summons dr. strange due to strange's ties with the outside dimension.

further more, the living tribunal did not even want to show its face at the presence of extra dimensional parasite destroying hundreds of universes within the marvel multiverse

so tribunal had the power to scare away zom jut for threatening the universe, but he can't do the same thing when shuma actually did consume "hundreds of realities" within and out of the multiverse?

who is nemesis and why did living tribunal fear it and why he couldn't he stop rune from stealing the infinity gems?

i would also like to mention about the extra dimensional entity named NEMESIS whom extra dimensional minor rune help to bring back to existence.

thanos already proved that with just 6 of the infinite gems the living tribunal took a whole series to nagate! and thanos was virtually in control with everything within the marvel universe save outside in the extra dimensional plane. however; the 7th gem ('ego') completed the sentient known as nemesis who is btw the mother of marvel's entire creation. the living tribunal did not want her to be revived wich is why only the ego gem exist in the malibu continuity, and not marvel's. so in essance, cyttorak and nemesis are somewhat related along with the living tribunal and other abstracts out side of the inner dimensional plane. of course however, entities like nemesis and her extra dimensional reletives are so powerful that only PIS can defeat them. she was defeated pretty much the same way juggernaut "defeated" cyttorak in his trails. but despite of all that, nemesis was the ultimate god right under TOAA. she was the seed that bursted and created the entire omniverse of marvel AND malibu.

why is this relevant? well, apparently when nemesis spread her power through out the omniverse, she sprouted abstract sentient beings. living tribunal among them, but who are the rest of them? cyttorak and the octessence have too vague a past to pin point exactly how they came to be, but marvel has given hints that these beings were created before time hence why the crimson cosmos is timeless AND vast.

fact: nemesis is the living tribunal superior

sorcerer supreme! the most powerful mortal that ever existed in marvel next to siseg-neg! and shuma gorath the entity that nearly devoured the infinite multiverse along with the omniverse.

genesis
sorcerer supreme
shuma gorath

three beings that achieved higher than living tribunal status.

fact:

  • shuma gorath had devoured hundrends of realities parallel to 616 where the living tribunal was helpless to contain
  • genesis manages to contain shuma gorath prime and put it to sleep before recotconning the 616 universe and it's branches of parallel realities.
  • dr. strange manages to contain shuma after it awakens and then manages to destroy it thanks to shuma gorath's own TRANS-INFINITE power.

do you know what those three facts mean????

it means that all three of them are more powerful than the living tribunal! period.

why?

let's look back at protege and scathan.

protege is a inner-dimensional entity. he resides in the 616 universe, yet manages to over come the living tribunal. if it wasn't for scathan, the entire multiverse would had been replaced in protege's hands.

fact:

  • protege is more powerful than the living tribunal and PR beyonder
  • scathan DID NOT approve of this and protege lost all his powers and everything in the multiverse was restored and protege disappeared .... forever.....
  • the living tribunal, scathan and the celstiels could not defend multi-eternity from shuma gorath feeding off of him and gaining 'TRANS-INFINITE' power.

but this does not say anything about how power cyttorak is. dr. strange can not defeat galactus and nor can cyttorak.. mikaboshi can defeat odin and galactus!

this is a foolish assumption. galactus had been defeated and killed by much powerful beings with relative ease! observes. dr. strange uses the spell of the extra-dimensional plane on galactus.

dr. doom vs galactus and odin! and thanos ADMITS how dangerous dr. doom can be!

this is guy that thanos must always never let his guard down, thus said in IW too. and when he siphoned the power of galactus, he utilizes it better than galactus.

has a better fight against odin than thanos did

PR beyonder ADMITS that dr. doom is too dangerous to exist and still can not banish him! beyonder has to fight him in physical form just to fight him.

galactus helpless under the mercy of cyttorak!

how does this make cyttorak stronger than the living tribunal?

before dr. strange absorbed alot of the most powerful beings in the universe and bored powers and artifacts from several extra-dimensional deities like cyttorak and fought with shuma gorath, dr. strange had already fought the a "living tribunal amped in-betweener AND the LIVING TRIBUNAL itself. (using just a few octessence's & the vishanti's power ALONE.

fact:

  • dr. strange was so powerful that he was disturbing the balance of power in the universe that the living tribunal ruled that dr. strange must be stopped
  • the living tribunal amps up the in-betweener to fight dr. strange.
  • in-betweener lost.
  • the living tribunal fights dr. strange itself
  • living tribunal's neigh-omnipotent reality warping powers do not work so the living tribunal has a contest with dr. strange on WHO CAN INVOKE MORE POWER FROM THE EXTRA DIMENSIONAL PLANE (namely the octessence!)
  • strange and tribunal agree on a temporary truths.
  • strange won.
  • then shuma gorath shows up.

who are raggadorr and seraphim and why is the living tribunal calling to them to invoke their power?

1st off, let us define the word "INVOKE".

in·voke

–verb (used with object), -voked, -vok·ing.1.to call for with earnest desire; make supplication or pray for: to invoke God's mercy.

2.to call on (a deity, Muse, etc.), as in prayer or supplication.

3.to declare to be binding or in effect: to invoke the law; to invoke a veto.

4.to appeal to, as for confirmation.

5.to petition or call on for help or aid.

6.to call forth or upon (a spirit) by incantation.

7.to cause, call forth, or bring about.

raggadorr and the seraphim are both extra-dimension deities of the extra-dimensional plane. raggadorr being one of the octessence. knowing that dr. strange had tipped the scale of power in large degree, the living tribunal could not simply use it's use power to simply cancel powers, let alone, blink dr. strange out of existence so he needed the extra power to fight dr. strange.

soooo... does this mean the raggadorr and the seraphim are stronger than cyttorak?

well... let's see......

it is known inside the marvel HQ, that cyttorak is the champion of the extra-dimensional plane. according to the vishanti, cyttorak almost conquered the entire extra-dimension, but instead took a chunk out of it to claim all his own. no deity in existence of the extra-dimensional plane wish to challenge cyttorak alone. in the scan above, you can see just how helpless dr. strange is inside the extra-dimensional plane where lives these deities.

fact: cyttorak is far stronger more powerful compared to the vishanti, seraphim, trion, zom, raggadorr AND the rest of the octessence!

raggadorr and the octessence onvine cyttorak to wager on a contest of power using avatars....

note: juggernaut solos the entire octessence's exemplars

note 2: each of these exemplars are significantly stronger than thor by a large margin

keep in mind that these powers presented to you are mere fraction of a fraction of a fraction of these deities powers.

well, what else can this so called infinite power do?

the trion recognizes that the power of the crimson cosmos was the ONLY power that could destroy their extra dimensional universe.

despyare was utilizing juggernaut's portion of power to larger effects.

means this....

entities that juggernaut has battled with and could not destroy him.

  • nightmare (who in that arc defeated eternity)
  • d'spyare (who had the power to control the universe w/o the IG)
  • dr. strange (who was powerful enough to negate the IG and truths with the living tribunal as sorerer supreme, but he needed help from cyttorak to defeat the juggernaut)
  • obvion (who is the master of the gateway to nothingness can not blink juggernaut out of existence)
  • doramarru (who was trying to hide from the juggernaut because doramarru knows he's bad news)
  • thor (who could not defeat the juggernaut so he have to summon the odinforce to open a portal that juggernaut accidently fell into and got back out after ruling the dimension of limbo)
  • beyonder who could not blink juggernaut out of existence so he left him on an asteroid in some unknown part of space.

fact: mikaboshi managed to killed nightmare, but juggernaut with only a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of cyttorak's power was enough to make a complete fool out of nightmare inside nightmare's own realm.

despayre believes that using the crimson magic was the only way to kill the juggernaut, but apparently cyttorak favors cain more.

who invokes cyttorak's power?

  • dr. strange
  • juggernaut
  • dormamarru
  • zom
  • dr. doom
  • mordo
  • umar
  • azrael
  • living tribunal

elder gods of earth vs the elder deities of the extra-dimentional plane.

  • demogorge can scare the elder gods of earth
  • the elder gods are no match for the vishanti
  • the vishanti are hardly a match for the octassence
  • the octessence are weaker than cyttorak

fact: parallel universe to 616 (within the multiverse) elder god set was expanding his dimension until agamotto trapped set inside the eye of agamotto there for all eternity due to quasars sacrafice.

what about dr. strange who who arrogantly fought with the living tribunal? can he arrogantly fight cyttorak the same?

the answer is NO ...

cyttorak was so powerful that all of strange's powers where simply negated. remember, the vishanti had already told strange prior to meeting with cyttorak, that they will not aid him if or whenever he encountered cyttorak. even the seraphim who help living tribunal reflect the powers of raggadorr did not want to help dr. strange.

why?

because everyone of them are scared of him!

let's see how we know it's true...

INFINITY WAR. Dr. Strange. Living Tribunal. and CYTTORAK.

the time when dr. strange encountered cyttorak was during the middle of the INFINITY WAR. cyttorak uses a plan to kill two birds with one stone by using dr. strange to call in the juggernaut

in the infinity war. the living tribunal took a whole series negate the power of the Infinity Gauntlet! warning thanos more than twice to stop using the infinty gems and turn them over. on the other hand, during the entire series dr. strange negated the infinity gauntlet twice! and defended himself from each individual gem some time before.

another proof that the extra-dimensional plane > overshadows anything inside the inner-dimension.

a guy who has the power to negate the IG vs the crimson cosmos

figuring a solution by humbly negotiating with cyttorak and not even daring to insult him by any possible way just makes this sorcerer supreme look like a taco supreme before one who is truly THAT MIGHTY.

hence....

convinced yet?

let's recap...

from this!

to this!

so i ask again.....

can mikaboshi defeat the living tribunal?????

if not, then mikaboshi is way inferior to cyttorak.

@ShootingNova said:

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning: Actually Cyttorak is below Shuma-Gorath, at least when it's in it's own dimension.

How? Strange beat Shuma, but couldn't with Cyttorak

Why does Marvel say Cyttorak is stronger?

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning said:

Cyttorak is above Shuma-Gorath stated by Marvel and supported by Marvel through the Vishanti and Ancient One.

Brevoort also knows about this. (Current Marvel Executive)

shuma gorath

cyttorak

One does not simply take Lance Bastro's post without permission.

#45 Posted by ShootingNova (16979 posts) - - Show Bio

@OneDoesNotSimplyWalkIntoMordor: LOL, you do realize he is Lance Bastro?

I appreciate the time you used to construct such a long post, but the way you have presented said post makes it very vulnerable; you turned all of your "evidence" into a single chain, thus, should any of your "evidence" be refuted, the entire chain will simply fall apart.

For example, looking at your "Dr. Strange vs. the Living Tribunal", the first part isn't too relevant. The only thing that happened was when Strange attempted to cast a spell, the Tribunal deflected it and Strange got caught by his own spell. So all he broke out of was his own spell. And then the Tribunal summoned that spell again (albeit it was twice as powerful). Then Strange simply broke out of that. Strange himself was the first one to invoke Raggadorr's power, so yeah.......

Nowhere did Strange actually overpower/defeat the Tribunal. At all. He simply held off the Tribunal (who may possibly have been holding back) and then simply convinced him to give him time to save the Earth/prove it had goodness/whatever.

Also, as far as Killemall's speech goes, you've posted several fan-made pictures in that post. If that's true, then they have no right to be there.

#46 Posted by KingUranus (218 posts) - - Show Bio

Okaydokie. Soome intense debating going on here. I guess cytoraks gots tehis one.

#47 Posted by fondofpacman (572 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheSecondOpinion: I'm glad you have faith in their ability to keep stories constant, but being a fan of Marvel does not instantly mean you possess well-reasoned opinions about characters as obscure as Cyttorak Vs Zom Vs Shuma. The three of them are rarely appearing characters that may have even been written to be intentionally ambiguous as far as their true power goes.

Before he was brought back in that recent arc where he possessed Dr. Strange, Zom was only in 2 comics (I think the new arc came out after that comment). Zom appeared, scared off Umar, fought Strange for a few panels, then got resealed away by the first appearance of the Living Tribunal. There's clearly not enough info to go on to make any of this definate; Brevoort putting Cyttorak above Zom is nothing more than his own personal opinion (and one that seems sort of arbitrary to me). I'm just saying, despite the fact that he's a big man at Marvel, unless he discussed and confirmed his opinions with Stan Lee himself (the writer of the Zom/LT arc), his opinion is no more valid than any of ours regarding Cyttorak/Zom/Shuma.

#48 Posted by TheSecondOpinion (614 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova said:

The only thing that happened was when Strange attempted to cast a spell, the Tribunal deflected it and Strange got caught by his own spell.

I think the point was that Strange invoked a spell so powerful that the Living Tribunal had to invoke the Shields of the Serephim in order to protect himself. The Living Tribunal didn't deflect Strange's Rings with his own power; he too invoked a power entity to shield himself.

And then the Tribunal summoned that spell again

Yes, the Living Tribunal had to invoke the power of Raggaddorr.

http://www.answers.com/topic/invoke

Strange himself was the first one to invoke Raggadorr's power, so yeah..

And the Living Tribunal was the first one to invoke the Serephim since his own defenses could not deflect the curse.

7's argument was that the Living Tribunal needed to invoke the Seraphim and cross-referenced that the Shields of the Serephim is barely any use to defend against Cyttorak as the picture proves.

Cyttorak's hand cracks the Shields of the Serephim
Nowhere did Strange actually overpower/defeat the Tribunal.

That wasn't 7's point. Did you even read the post? 7 never said anything that Dr. Strange beat the Living Tribunal. Where does it say that in the post?

7 said:

"cyttorak was so powerful that all of strange's powers where simply negated. remember, the vishanti had already told strange prior to meeting with cyttorak, that they will not aid him if or whenever he encountered cyttorak. even the seraphim who help living tribunal reflect the powers of raggadorr did not want to help dr. strange."

I think the point is clear.

When Dr. Strange fought the Living Tribunal, he had the will and power to defend himself, but when Dr. Strange fought Cyttorak, Cyttorak negated all of his powers and all of the powers of the other Principalities trying to help Strange.

He simply held off the Tribunal

No, he denied and defied the Living Tribunal's will.

In contrast, Dr. Strange could not deny nor defy Cyttorak.

Also, as far as Killemall's speech goes, you've posted several fan-made pictures in that post. If that's true, then they have no right to be there.

I hardly call those fan pictures, but more like Laymen Term examples for the people that do not understand the differences between inner-realities and outer-realities.

#49 Posted by fondofpacman (572 posts) - - Show Bio

And LT using the principality powers doesn't mean that he couldn't have defended himself using his own powers. At the time of that comic, the Seraphim and Raggador were not delineated characters (they could have been places or something), so there was no intended suggestion that LT was borrowing anyone's powers on the writer's part.

#50 Edited by TheSecondOpinion (614 posts) - - Show Bio

@fondofpacman said:

characters as obscure as Cyttorak Vs Zom Vs Shuma. The three of them are rarely appearing characters that may have even been written to be intentionally ambiguous as far as their true power goes.

The differences between the three are that:

  1. Shuma acts as a leach and becomes stronger as far as he drains energy. This; however, can have an opposite effect which; therefore, he can ultimately weaken.
  2. Zom acts as a corrupted/infected file which embeds a virus to the mainframe that can spread and ultimately destroy something of order. Like a virus, it can be contained with the right tools.
  3. Cyttorak is a source of unlimited ambient power from a universe that is not parallel to the multiverse. In Laymen's terms, it is similar to THE FORCE in Star Wars. But unlike the FORCE, Cyttorak reflects reality's image of it only to the perception of the barer and becomes a manifestation of what your subconscious wants to believe you see. Some characters see him as a ruby, some characters see him as a demon, some characters see him as a god, some characters see him as a whole universe. But being a 'source of unlimited power' means that Cyttorak does not weaken since its power is constant. Unlike Zom and Shuma-Gorath, Cyttorak's power does not fluctuate.
Brevoort putting Cyttorak above Zom is nothing more than his own personal opinion (and one that seems sort of arbitrary to me). I'm just saying, despite the fact that he's a big man at Marvel, unless he discussed and confirmed his opinions with Stan Lee himself (the writer of the Zom/LT arc), his opinion is no more valid than any of ours regarding Cyttorak/Zom/Shuma.

Stan Lee already told the world about why he created the Juggernaut and Cyttorak long before Tom Brevoort became an intern worker at Marvel. In one of Stan Lee's "Soap Boxes" (http://www.amazon.com/Stans-Soapbox-Collection-Stan-Lee/dp/0979760291) Stan told the world that he created Juggernaut for a specific reason, and that reason was to create a character that would be flexible enough to fight any character so that any character can unleash their utmost and fullest potential on him with out them able to kill him. Point being that the Juggernaut was meant to bring the fullest potential out of any character he fought. He created Cyttorak before Juggernaut as a result to Dr. Strange's comics having to create a deity that is outside of the realm of normal space so that it is able to provide unlimited energy to power any one who invokes it.

So Tom is not simply stating an opinion; he is merely enforcing what Stan Lee has already mentioned.