Cyttorak vs Shuma-Gorath

you DO realize that it was stated by the vishanti themselves that they are "afraid to anger cyttorak", right? 
that they were in fear that cyttorak could over power them even in their own dimension. that's why the elder gods, vishianti plus the celestrial had to seal him from stepping out of the crimson cosmos. 

that's why the elder gods, vishianti plus the celestrial had to seal him from stepping out of the crimson cosmos. 

Strange III#44   even the trion elder dimensional gods want to use cyttoraks power to destroy dimensions. who else? d'spypre wants to invoke cyttorak's power to recreate the 616 universe.  what's next?  "

And when did Vishanti destroy the universe? 

Combined might ? If everyone you listed actually were there, they would demolish Agamotto in moments. Galactus gives him a fight, but falls before Ikonn's magic.      

And Cyttorak's magic can command the very fabric of the universe, so what ? 

Hoggoth is a Great One One ? LOL    

I don't see Vishanti destroying the universe. You fail.     

A spell ? I see no " Crimson Bands, Images, Roving Rings". No spell. You fail again.     

Didn't read Juggernaut one-shot ? Fail agan.     

You can't even read carefully. Great One one ? Fail again.    

They didn't refuse to fight. That guy said that if V were to fight S, the energy release from their fight ( not only from V, but from S too ) would destroy the plane. I don't see Universe mentioned. You fail.     

No spell was there. Just words. You fail.     

Nonsense ? Eat that.

"

Where is it stated that Slorioth can destroy a universe or thousands ? He isn't destroying anything.    

No, that was not the spell. He didn't mentioned any spell there. He just named them. It's just like Thor often says " By all-mighty father Odin..." , and so on. It doesn't add Odin's power to him, it's just more of like.... a battle cry or something. Something that you do in someone's name.  
Oh, I beg you....     

How is that not impressive ? Juggernaut has only a portion of Cyttorak's power, and if even a small portion of Cyttorak's might can affect the very fabric of the universe, can you imagine how powerful Cyttorak trully is ?    

"  "

 keep in mind that the juggernaut is an avatar only using 0.0000000000000000010% of the entire crimson cosmos. trion juggernaut was using 0.0001% 
 

" @Lance Bastro said:

 keep in mind that the juggernaut is an avatar only using 0.0000000000000000010% of the entire crimson cosmos. trion juggernaut was using 0.0001% 
 

WHAT??????? I thought Juggernaut had 1/8 of Cyttorak's power.  I thought the Octessence all gave their Exemplars 1/8 of their power?? "

" @fallenangel5991 said:

" @Lance Bastro said:

 keep in mind that the juggernaut is an avatar only using 0.0000000000000000010% of the entire crimson cosmos. trion juggernaut was using 0.0001% 
 

WHAT??????? I thought Juggernaut had 1/8 of Cyttorak's power.  I thought the Octessence all gave their Exemplars 1/8 of their power?? "

That sounds like 8th day Juggernaut. "

" @Lance Bastro said:

 keep in mind that the juggernaut is an avatar only using 0.0000000000000000010% of the entire crimson cosmos. trion juggernaut was using 0.0001% 
 

WHAT??????? I thought Juggernaut had 1/8 of Cyttorak's power.  I thought the Octessence all gave their Exemplars 1/8 of their power?? "

"
"

" @fallenangel5991 said:

" @Lance Bastro said:

 keep in mind that the juggernaut is an avatar only using 0.0000000000000000010% of the entire crimson cosmos. trion juggernaut was using 0.0001% 
 

WHAT??????? I thought Juggernaut had 1/8 of Cyttorak's power.  I thought the Octessence all gave their Exemplars 1/8 of their power?? "

No. "

" @lord_oraculous016: It was said by whom ? By that fanatic ? Slorioth didn't destroy a universe, neither did Vishanti. Stop lying. When Doctor Strange invokes the spell, he names the spell. He didn't name any spell there. He just named the deities. Just like Thor, Hercules and others. And what if Chthon claimed that ? Odin claims himself as an omnipotent, is he ? No. I can claim anything. Not an argument.Nor Chthon, nor Vishanti are on Cyttorak's level.  "

you've mistaken. the vishanti are "worry" for the purpose of them knowing it's power. you keep mentioning that the vishanti created the fabrics of magic, but that is just elemental. you DO know that there are magics much older than whatever the vishanti and the elder gods claimed to create, right? dr. strange even stated this while he was comparing himself to dr. doom. cyttorak's magic, is unlike the vishanti. he's from a whole different playing field and is hinted by the creators of marvel that he is older than even the elder gods.    

answer this. why hasn't marvel released features of cyttorak other than "testing juggernaut on trails"? 
 
you're going to tell me that trail feature are the only thing you'll accept? dr. strange does fear cyttorak, however, dr. strange knows that cyttorak is reasonable unlike shuma gorath. 
 
now answer this. why does shuma hunger for power and cyttorak does not? 

also, i'm going to repeat what dr. strange said.  despite himself being sorcerer supreme and knowing virtually any magic, especially from the vishanti, "DR. DOOM had traveled trillions of years into the passed and now he knows magic that i was never aware of."     

question. why can't nightmare, d'spyre, oblivion, death, eternity, set, trion etc... kill the juggernaut? keep in mind that the juggernaut is an avatar only using 0.0000000000000000010% of the entire crimson cosmos. trion juggernaut was using 0.0001%      

why can't the vishanti exist out side of marvel but cyttorak can? the vishanti may be multi-dimension in the multiverse, but that's just their limit. cyttorak can exist everywhere in the omniverse and that includes the capcom universe and EA and malibu.      

again, who is Cyttorak compared to Eternity? Cyttorak is far bellow the cosmic ladder my friend.. 
 

Whole heartedly agree.

"He didn't name it when hurled Agamotto. Stop making up things, Galactus can deal with Agamotto in his own realm, while the spells of Ikonn can defeat him. "

" @Cypher's Gambit said:

" If Cyttorak has unlimited power, but Shuma gets more powerful absorbing powers then should that count this battle as a tie?  "

Kenshiro is simply twisting facts to suit Cyttorak winning. Shuma-Gorath is a God and like any other God it is omnipotent within its pocket dimension. Based on feats, Shuma-Gorath wins. "

"   "

"  
The Celestials would literally SLAUGHTER the Vishanti and the Octessence.   
First of all there are too many of them. 
Second of all, Scathan himself could solo this with ease.  Scathan was the only one capable of defeating Protege, who was too much for even the Living Tribunal to handle. 
Third of all, Tiamut, Exitar or Arishem could solo this too. 
No explanation needed.  Celestials outclasses the Octessence and the Vishanti in power by several magnitudes. 
 
Now, if you take out Scathan, Tiamut, Arishem, and Exitar, and move this battle to the Octessence's dimension, it will be a better battle, though the celestials still win. 
 
Here, this is what happened when the entire race of Asgardian Gods attacked a single Celestial known as ARISHEM the JUDGE.  They were repelled like little annoying fleas.  
 
 

   Now, imagine an ARMY of Celestials like the one above.  ( three of them, Tiamut, Scathan and Exitar, are vastly more powerful than Arishem ) "

@lord_oraculous016:

@fallenangel5991

"  @Lance Bastro said: 

" where is oro lord at? i lost the thread. 
cyttorak is more powerful than zom and the vishanti for reasons that strange is humble at the presence of cyttorak than he is in front of the LT, ZOM, galactus etc.. 
why is it dr. strange can be arrogant before mephisto, dormarru, death and oblivion yet he is humble before cyttorak? 

I respect Cyttorak, but this is just going too far.  In your opinion then, Cyttorak is more powerful than Death, Oblivion, Galactus, and even the Living Tribunal?? That's insanity.  Cyttorak is not even close to the abstracts like Eternity, Death, and Oblivion.  I say Zom takes this fight. "

@lord_oraculous016

"  "

@lordoraculous @fallenangel @riseofapocalypse

Shuma-Gorath.

Nice explanation Lance, I agree 95% of everything you said. The physical and logical law of crimson cosmos (which is a pocket reality) is totally different and unrelated the actually Earth -616- reality.

" @Prince CortSether said:

" @Cypher's Gambit said:

" If Cyttorak has unlimited power, but Shuma gets more powerful absorbing powers then should that count this battle as a tie?  "

Kenshiro is simply twisting facts to suit Cyttorak winning. Shuma-Gorath is a God and like any other God it is omnipotent within its pocket dimension. Based on feats, Shuma-Gorath wins. "

Too bad Cort, you did fall darker than you already were, making this kind of slanderous comments of me to others; (typical slanderous comments from desperate and coward people who have lost all their wit, honesty and ability to respectfully debate or understand other points of view. Sorrowfully, most of them start acting like trolls) is this really your case? Because if it is, what a shame of you sincerely.By the way, do you really know what means Omnipotence? Please, define the Omnipotence concept here and I would like to see what Omnipotence was shown in Shuma's realm, because I have understood that Omnipotence does not mean to be owned or handled in its own realm by a mortal (Dr. Stephen Strange) under any circumstances.That’s incredible, too much confusion and misuse with the application of the Omnipotence term.  X_________________________________________________________X "

why? i really don't know.. probably because he is not really a well known character.. i know Strange fears Cyttorak but to what extent.. he still invokes his powers.. Cyttorak is one of the deities under Exocentric Magic.. he is a vital source of power for magicians.. Why does Shuma hungers? because it is simply his character.. you cannot say Cyttorak is more powerful because he does not need to feed.. again, you cab base a factual opinion based on that idea alone..  
  "

don't you get it already? of course they won't bring up cyttoraks name on the panel bc they know he wants fame in his name. you keep on telling me and others that we are using speculations, but youre failing to realize that SPECULATIONS are all part of this system of debate! see the thing is that you are blinded by the fact, that you must be proven with your own eyes to believe. keep in mind that these are COMIC book chatacters that we are talking about. our logic can only go so far explaining the laws of comics, let alone a power of a god.       

tell me. do we need proof from the bible that god created the universe? where are the feats? there are none. but do we deny that it ever happened? some think yes, some think no. it's speculation correct. in other words, there are just some things you DON"T need proof in. 

so if, marvel says that cyttorak "could be billions to trillions of years old", that means he can be anywhere from between there give or take a few thousand years. so of course we don't know his exact age compared to the elder gods. none the less, speculation takes part here if proof is not possible.

let me ask you something..... what came 1st? the chicken or the egg? 
 
this is relating to a time paradox which relates to the space-time continuum i've written above. 
 
did the egg come 1st or did the chicken??? 
ok, now answer this. who is older? the elder gods? or Sise-Neg? 
 
  
do you know what a causality paradox is? this is the perfect example. logic claims that the elder gods are billions of years old but Sise-Neg is a man of the future who created the universe. 
 
now let's apply other beings that are proved to be older than the elder gods. Nemesis. why is nemesis older than the elder gods? because she was created before space-time continuum. before there was a universe. nemesis is older than eternity, living tribunal, death and oblivion. 
 
who else exist out of time-space? guess who... Cyttorak.      

soooo, that goes back to the question of who exactly is older? beings that are restricted of/to/through time.... or the beings displaced of time?  
hypothesis should suggest that nemisis and cyttorak are brother and sister while Genesis is the father of the elder gods, celestials, and universal abstracts. 
so if you ask me.... cyttorak and nemesis are way older than the elder gods.

  i'm not being biased here.   i'm being as logical as can be. "

 
ok, i'm going to have to outline it for you.  you're beating around the bush with text in a book and not understanding what's beyond the text and visual eye pleasers.   maybe schematics might make you understand better and i'm getting tired of typing. 
 
this is the universe... 
  
 
 
 its the reality of space-time continuum. everything is inside it. in marvel, one universe is namely the essences of eternity and infinity. within it is time and space (space includes sub and hyper) 
 there are pockets within these space that are hidden (sub-space). in marvel, there dwells deity entities. let's call them inner-dimensional beings for now. for instance, mephisto, loki, zeus, dormamuu etc.. then there are the entities that live in hyperspace within the universe like the celestriels. and then the abstracts of the universe whom exist everywhere and nowhere within the universe (death etc...)
 
 
this is how a parallel universe is stringed together by time. 
 
   
 
 consisting of 616, 1610, 811, 2949, 94831, what-if comics.... etc... the living tribunal manages these and all of these universe combined is eternity times many (multi-eternity) with its abstract brothers and sisters. 
  
 
that's the crimson universe displaced by normal reality. marvel already mentioned that it is a space with "no time", therefore it is not linked to the multiverse and their pockets.
  

 
 
 
let me add malibu comics in here, where the crimson cosmos is able to effect it, while Living Tribunal nor any other marvel abstract can not. don't mind shuma gorath; he will be mentioned later on.
 
   
 

  
 
 

  
 
 
 juggernaut was pushed into the mailbu universe to find his way back to the marvel universe. cyttorak brings him from both places and juggernaut is still just as unstoppable.
 
  
 
 
 
  the vishanti are somewhat displaced as well. they are extra dimensional and freely roam the multiverse. shuma gorath is also extra dimensional along with others...
 
  
 
 
  
no one knows what extra dimensional god created zom, but zom is also extra-dimensional, however is not match for the Living Tribunal when it attacked 616.

  
 
 
the living tribunal is only bound to maintain balance within the marvel "continuity" aka - multiverse. it can not, regulate anything that is outside of it. (reference: extra-dimensional demon, Rune was able to cross into the marvel continuity and steal the soul gem from marvel and brought it to the malibu universe). that said, Living Tribunal can not or has little effect against shuma-gorath, the vishanti, and the octessence outside the marvel continuity.
 
 

  
 
  
  
  
 don't confuse inner dimensional (mephisto etc..) beings with extra dimensional (shuma gorath etc..)
  
 
   
 
the vishanti, the trion, and the rest of the octessence are well aware of how powerful cyttorak is. it took all of them to defend from his attacks. moreover, the trion recognizes that the power of the crimson cosmos was the ONLY power that could destroy their extra dimensional universe.
 

   
  
there was also an instance, when one inner-dimensional entity recognized that the power of the crimson cosmos surpassed the rest of the extra dimensional beings. wanting to use the power of the crimson to gain control of his universe.
 
 
  
  
 
lastly, since this is a shuma/cyttorak thread. the reason why shuma is so dangerous, is bc it acts like a leech and feeds off every kind of energy. this parasite had already fed through hundreds of universes from the multiverse. the living tribunal couldn't even get rid of it. shuma has no limit of feeding... it can eat trans-infinite energy of all kinds.
 
 
 
 
 

  
  

Lance Bastro's posts sure are entertaining...

lance is insane! 

" @lord_oraculous016 said:

"   "

@fallenangel5991 said: 

"  
The Celestials would literally SLAUGHTER the Vishanti and the Octessence.   
First of all there are too many of them. 
Second of all, Scathan himself could solo this with ease.  Scathan was the only one capable of defeating Protege, who was too much for even the Living Tribunal to handle. 
Third of all, Tiamut, Exitar or Arishem could solo this too. 
No explanation needed.  Celestials outclasses the Octessence and the Vishanti in power by several magnitudes. 
 
Now, if you take out Scathan, Tiamut, Arishem, and Exitar, and move this battle to the Octessence's dimension, it will be a better battle, though the celestials still win. 
 
Here, this is what happened when the entire race of Asgardian Gods attacked a single Celestial known as ARISHEM the JUDGE.  They were repelled like little annoying fleas.  
 
 

   Now, imagine an ARMY of Celestials like the one above.  ( three of them, Tiamut, Scathan and Exitar, are vastly more powerful than Arishem ) "

asgardian race... or any skyfather level are not multiversal threats. they can't even control the fabrics of reality. what i'm basically saying here is that if the entire asgardian race plus their counterparts like olypians, hell lords and other godlings/demigodlings/and demons were to come after cyttorak like that, he would blink them all out of existence. same said for the vashanti and the rest of the ectessence. these are beings not bounded to the rules of reality. especially cyttorak. but the celestrial race are still bounded by reality unlike the two other teams. their presence belong to hyperspace. 
 
space (where all things are in a 3rd dimesional plane) 
sub-space (the barrier that scratches the surface  of the normal space to the hyperspace) 
hyperspace (the most condensed area under sub space and normal space where exist hyper matter and particles) 
 
all are tied to time which threads them all together making a reality. (space-time continuum)
 
 
however, within this reality exist pockets in space. "pocketed dimensions". these consist of areas like hell, asgard, dormarru's realm etc... 
all of these areas are bound with the same quantum signatures with that reality through the same space-time laws. (ie: dormamrru, nightmare, mephisto realms could be hidding in sub-space while the celestriel realms reside in the hyperspace)
 
 but if you look at the crimson cosmos or the area the vishanti dwell in, you will find that their reality has no time and is separate from regular reality. they are not "pocketed dimensions". they exist out side another plane. this means that none of the vishanti nor the octessence oblige by the rules of the Living Tribunal and his subordinates (master order, death, oblivion, galactus, eternity, etc..). and this explains clearly, why strange can defeat any hell lord inside their respected realm or how juggernaut can not die inside another deities or abstract's respected realm. but look on the other side.... when strange, is in lets say the crimson cosmos, doesn't fight his way out. because he can't! he has to negotiate and keep promises to leave.
 
 and speaking of juggernaut again, with what little power he has of cyttorak, can not be physically beaten in any realm in the marvel continuity. the realm of d'spyre, the realm of nightmare, the realm of limbo, and the realm of oblivion... they can not dispose of juggernaut bc his powers defy the natural order of reality other than the crimson cosmos. does anyone know what i'm saying??? juggernaut's physics (mathematically) does not comply with this reality. he's physics are the crimson cosmos physics. our reality, 1+1=2  .... their reality, 1+1=3 
 
different languages, different set of rules. 
here's another analogy... 
 
x-box 360 
ps3 
 
  
can you naturally play ps3 games on 360? can you use an xbox controller to play PS3? or how about this? can windows run linux? can the pentium 3 run linux? no... 
 
"if thats the case, how does juggernaut exist in another reality?" 
 
consider cyttorak as a hacker. and juggernaut is a trojan horse or some kind of spyware/adware etc...  so he's a virus. cyttorak programs that virus to be accepted to exist in a computer. to harm it... however, cyttorak likes fame, so juggernaut acts more like an adware. annoying and mischievous rather than destructive although it can be. you have the virus program to "try" destroy the virus (thor, x-men whatnot) and then the "quarantine area" to "banish" and destroy that virus (let's say oblivion).  however.... this is a virus that can't be destroyed. so you have to update your computer for the latest virus definitions, right? naturally, yes! but the developer of this anti-virus (namely TOAA or the writers of marvel) decided not to.. well what do you have? a virus that can't be destroyed. 
 
juggernaut can not be destroyed because cyttorak doesn't allow it. and TOAA wants to not do anything about it. what does this say about the other abstracts? what does it say about the celestiels?
 
does anyone see my point?     
 
 
 
 

@lord_oraculous016:

 
cyttorak is more powerful than zom and the vishanti for reasons that strange is humble at the presence of cyttorak than he is in front of the LT, ZOM, galactus etc.. 
why is it dr. strange can be arrogant before mephisto, dormarru, death and oblivion yet he is humble before cyttorak? 
 
  
 
 
  
 
 
  
 
 
 
  

   

@fallenangel5991

  said:  

"  @Lance Bastro said: 

" where is oro lord at? i lost the thread. 
cyttorak is more powerful than zom and the vishanti for reasons that strange is humble at the presence of cyttorak than he is in front of the LT, ZOM, galactus etc.. 
why is it dr. strange can be arrogant before mephisto, dormarru, death and oblivion yet he is humble before cyttorak? 

I respect Cyttorak, but this is just going too far.  In your opinion then, Cyttorak is more powerful than Death, Oblivion, Galactus, and even the Living Tribunal?? That's insanity.  Cyttorak is not even close to the abstracts like Eternity, Death, and Oblivion.  I say Zom takes this fight. "

and i respect your opinion as well, but my post was towards lord_oraculous and riseofapocalypes.  
cyttorak  IS  abstract. it is not conceptual nor is it physical. he is the crimson cosmos as eternity is the universe outside of it. they are parallel abstracts of different realities. i will look for the scan where strange confirms this statement. 
 
strange also dares to challenge non crimson universal abstracts like death and eternity. 
 
      
  
one who's presence can destroy are universe.
 
  
 
dares to challenge the LT while both are using octessence power. 
 
  
 
  

  
 
 
 
and yet, all strange can do or say in front of cyttoraks are niceties and humble gestures? 
 
i mean is it just me or is there something wrong with the big picture here???   
 
 
 
  
 

@lord_oraculous016

said:

"  "

don't you get it already? of course they won't bring up cyttoraks name on the panel bc they know he wants fame in his name. you keep on telling me and others that we are using speculations, but youre failing to realize that SPECULATIONS are all part of this system of debate! see the thing is that you are blinded by the fact, that you must be proven with your own eyes to believe. keep in mind that these are COMIC book chatacters that we are talking about. our logic can only go so far explaining the laws of comics, let alone a power of a god.   tell me. do we need proof from the bible that god created the universe? where are the feats? there are none. but do we deny that it ever happened? some think yes, some think no. it's speculation correct. in other words, there are just some things you DON"T need proof in.  so if, marvel says that cyttorak "could be billions to trillions of years old", that means he can be anywhere from between there give or take a few thousand years. so of course we don't know his exact age compared to the elder gods. none the less, speculation takes part here if proof is not possible.  let me ask you something..... what came 1st? the chicken or the egg?  this is relating to a time paradox which relates to the space-time continuum i've written above.  did the egg come 1st or did the chicken??? ok, now answer this. who is older? the elder gods? or Sise-Neg?    do you know what a causality paradox is? this is the perfect example. logic claims that the elder gods are billions of years old but Sise-Neg is a man of the future who created the universe.  now let's apply other beings that are proved to be older than the elder gods. Nemesis. why is nemesis older than the elder gods? because she was created before space-time continuum. before there was a universe. nemesis is older than eternity, living tribunal, death and oblivion.  who else exist out of time-space? guess who... Cyttorak.  soooo, that goes back to the question of who exactly is older? beings that are restricted of/to/through time.... or the beings displaced of time?  hypothesis should suggest that nemisis and cyttorak are brother and sister while Genesis is the father of the elder gods, celestials, and universal abstracts. so if you ask me.... cyttorak and nemesis are way older than the elder gods. "

"Strange had turned into Shuma-Gorath and was capable of wielding Shuma's power in order to make Shuma-Gorath blow up by throwing his own energy at it, Shuma-Gorath was defeated by its own power. Why do you still keep on with the "mortal" thing when referring to Doctor Strange? He wasn't mortal at all when in Shuma's realm. "
 

" All Gods are "omnipotent" when inside their realms because they can do whatever they want, that is until someone with a higher degree of omnipotence or power comes in because they can simply destroy the realm. Cyttorak has never encountered a God powerful enough within the Crimson Cosmos that threatened to destroy his realm. He defeated a "mortal" Doctor Strange, not God Strange. "

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Omnipotence

Cyttorak is restricted in his realm to have only an infinite power to possess super-strength, durability, immortality, to create crimson bands, tentacles and rings, to create simple forms of life (elves) and teleport his pocket realm, artifacts and other beings in different dimensional planes. But with all this Cyttorak isn’t omnipotent in his own realm, because his power is restricted to the crimson cosmos and can’t do everything he wants to bring his will, as I’ve indicated in the previous paragraph.

Doc. Strange did have the whole knowledge and preparation of have beaten Shuma Gorath before when later faced Cyttorak in his C.C. realm. Yes, Strange was just as powerful as when he faced Shuma Gorath because he always did have something back to help himself successfully to deal with a powerful Demon as Shuma Gorath again: Strange did have Knowledge / Experience of battle, unfortunately this did not work with Cyttorak because it is a God (unlike Shuma who is a Demon and is in a lesser category than Cyttorak, this is the only logical and coherent point that explains and justifies its defeat by Doc. Strange), to the point Doc. Strange humbly had to negotiate with Cyttorak for pay tribute and homage calling his powers and spreading his fame of God for all the universe in exchange of his ticket out.

Honestly Cort, with all the respect you deserve, the most illogical thing I’ve heard is that you tell me that Dr. Strange was a God and, according to your trite illogical argument, a mortal (Doc Strange) became God because he forced a God merger with him in its own realm and in addition, he did manage to have more power (alleged omnipotence as erroneously you've assumed) to defeat him, simply this is completely illogical for me, but well, is your -illogical- interpretation, everyone draw their own conclusions.

" @Lance Bastro: OMG.. nice explanation, but sadly not based in nay of Marvel's official continuity.. Marvel has already explanation the distribution of mystical realms.. and if i were to chose between yours and marvel, well i pick Marvel any day.. and this is the distribution of Mystical realms ACCORDING TO MARVEL..  
 

this will also help to explain it more thoroughly.. 
 

Gallery

^_^   "

"  @RiseofApocalypse said: 

"
"

nova NEVER broke out of the crimson bands! stop saying that. cyttorak released her thanks to dr. strange and juggernaut. "

" @Lance Bastro said: 

"  @RiseofApocalypse said: 

"
"

nova NEVER broke out of the crimson bands! stop saying that. cyttorak released her thanks to dr. strange and juggernaut. "

I already posted the scan for you.  She broke the bands and got out.  "

Shuma-Gorath cant beat Cyttorak.

stalemate! (if shuma leaches of cyttorak bc trans-infinite absorber -/- unlimited and constant power) 
cyttorak wins if shuma is not latched to the crimson cosmos.

Shuma based on feats and inherent powers.

Shuma Gorath was destroyed which Cyttorak was not. However, Cyttorak doesn't have a lot of features backing him up so I'll vote for the one who shows more feats.

"Shuma-Gorath cant beat Cyttorak. "

"@Jedisupermaster said:

"Shuma-Gorath cant beat Cyttorak. "

"

"@FLCL1 said:

"@Jedisupermaster said:

"Shuma-Gorath cant beat Cyttorak. "

"

"