Cyttorak v Insane Genis-Vell

Battle takes place in the Marvel Uni..
Neutral venue for the start of this encounter.
Cyttorak & Insane Genis-Vell have full information on each other. 
No outside help for either character.
Anything goes.
Who Wins?

Genis puts a cosmic .45 to his head and pushes his wig back.

@CapitolPunishment:Pretty much what you said

^^ IGV

Cyttorak.  The only information Insane Genis-Vell will get from prep-time is:  Cyttorak = transinfinite unlimited endless power.     Cyttorak can actually observe anything around the universe if he so pleases and that includes watching events that include Genis-Vell. But Genis-Vell has no way of observing Cyttorak. This match would be more fair if it were Insane Genis-Vell vs 8th Day Juggernaut. (Or possibly Trion Juggernaut)

@CitizenBane said:

I pick the guy who actually has relevant feats.

Cyttorak

genis -vell wins....i dont think he even as limit?!

@tron_bonne said:

@Chaos Prime said:

@tron_bonne said:

Cyttorak. The only information Insane Genis-Vell will get from prep-time is: Cyttorak = transinfinite unlimited endless power. Cyttorak can actually observe anything around the universe if he so pleases and that includes watching events that include Genis-Vell. But Genis-Vell has no way of observing Cyttorak. This match would be more fair if it were Insane Genis-Vell vs 8th Day Juggernaut. (Or possibly Trion Juggernaut)

This battle begins in a neutral venue be it the Marvel Uni but not Cytorak backyard where the following statement could be true.

Cyttorak is above Entropy and all of Eternity's children including Eternity himself. That said; This is a problem for Genis-Vell. This means that in order for IGV to see Cyttorak, Cyttorak would have to will itself to manifest to a level were IGV can see him, but even if IGV is able to see him and make an M-Body of Cyttoak explode, it does nothing because Cyttorak simply has a higher perception and level of existence. This would be equal to throwing hand grenades at a ghost. Or launching nukes at a ghost.

How is Cyttorak above Eternity?

@Prince CortSether said:

@iLLituracy said:

@tron_bonne said:

@Chaos Prime said:

@tron_bonne said:

Cyttorak. The only information Insane Genis-Vell will get from prep-time is: Cyttorak = transinfinite unlimited endless power. Cyttorak can actually observe anything around the universe if he so pleases and that includes watching events that include Genis-Vell. But Genis-Vell has no way of observing Cyttorak. This match would be more fair if it were Insane Genis-Vell vs 8th Day Juggernaut. (Or possibly Trion Juggernaut)

This battle begins in a neutral venue be it the Marvel Uni but not Cytorak backyard where the following statement could be true.

Cyttorak is above Entropy and all of Eternity's children including Eternity himself. That said; This is a problem for Genis-Vell. This means that in order for IGV to see Cyttorak, Cyttorak would have to will itself to manifest to a level were IGV can see him, but even if IGV is able to see him and make an M-Body of Cyttoak explode, it does nothing because Cyttorak simply has a higher perception and level of existence. This would be equal to throwing hand grenades at a ghost. Or launching nukes at a ghost.

How is Cyttorak above Eternity?

He isn't. You'll only hear that from 1) tron_bonne 2) Lance Bastro 3) Kenshiroo

I figured it was hogwash, but on the off-chance he actually has substantial proof...I'd like to hear it.

In a resent comic a bunch of evil underworld characters were around Satans vacant throne. The ones who dared sit closest were considered the highest ranked.

Mephisto was there and so was Cyttorak whose seats were pretty close to each other.

I don't know much about Insane Genis-Vell but Cyttorak is way overrated/overranked in the battle forum.

@iLLituracy said:

@tron_bonne said:

@Chaos Prime said:

@tron_bonne said:

Cyttorak. The only information Insane Genis-Vell will get from prep-time is: Cyttorak = transinfinite unlimited endless power. Cyttorak can actually observe anything around the universe if he so pleases and that includes watching events that include Genis-Vell. But Genis-Vell has no way of observing Cyttorak. This match would be more fair if it were Insane Genis-Vell vs 8th Day Juggernaut. (Or possibly Trion Juggernaut)

This battle begins in a neutral venue be it the Marvel Uni but not Cytorak backyard where the following statement could be true.

Cyttorak is above Entropy and all of Eternity's children including Eternity himself. That said; This is a problem for Genis-Vell. This means that in order for IGV to see Cyttorak, Cyttorak would have to will itself to manifest to a level were IGV can see him, but even if IGV is able to see him and make an M-Body of Cyttoak explode, it does nothing because Cyttorak simply has a higher perception and level of existence. This would be equal to throwing hand grenades at a ghost. Or launching nukes at a ghost.

How is Cyttorak above Eternity?

Because it is a different conception of a different universe that watches over the multiverse like a TV.  
Kenshrioo explained how the Crimson Cosmos is omniversal 
Lance Bastro explained Perception vs Reality 
 
Eternity is what exactly? An abstract..... Abstract of what? The answer is simple. 
Now reverse the question on Cyttorak. He's a concept of many things, but why is that? Perception. Heck, Juggernaut himself as the Trion Juggernaut is 1/8 of the physical aspect of Cyttorak alone. 
 
So it's Reality vs Perception and Actuality vs Comprehension 
 
 
 Example of Comprehension 
 
  
 Skip this video here if not wish to watch it all.
 
  

 All of this has to be watched in order to grasp it.

  
    
 
 
With all mentioned above already, Cyttorak is a higher level of perception and comprehension than Eternity. He is from a plane of existence Dr. Strange and the Ancient One call,  
"World Beyond World; Idea Beyond Ideas"

omgwutno

cyttorak>eternity!! really!?

@Chaos Prime said: 

@tron_bonne said: 

Cyttorak.  The only information Insane Genis-Vell will get from prep-time is:  Cyttorak = transinfinite unlimited endless power.     Cyttorak can actually observe anything around the universe if he so pleases and that includes watching events that include Genis-Vell. But Genis-Vell has no way of observing Cyttorak. This match would be more fair if it were Insane Genis-Vell vs 8th Day Juggernaut. (Or possibly Trion Juggernaut)

This battle begins in a neutral venue be it the Marvel Uni but not Cytorak backyard where the following statement could be true.

 Cyttorak is above Entropy and all of Eternity's children including Eternity himself. That said; This is a problem for Genis-Vell. This means that in order for IGV to see Cyttorak, Cyttorak would have to will itself to manifest to a level were IGV can see him, but even if IGV is able to see him and make an M-Body of Cyttoak explode, it does nothing because Cyttorak simply has a higher perception and level of existence. This would be equal to throwing hand grenades at a ghost. Or launching nukes at a ghost.  

 Because it gets much deeper than that. Cyttorak provides hints of his powers whenever featured through name and what not. Let me throw in one example: The Ancient One vs Eternity and Eternity vs Nightmare. 
 You have to find the scans through either Kenshioo or Lance, but Ancient One woships Cyttorak as most powerful deity and he single handedly defeated Eternity with his bare hand.

Nightmare before he was retconned  was also able to submit Eternity and Nightmare is in par to the original Juggernaut and Juggernaut is nothing without Cyttorak.

@Dernman said:

In a resent comic a bunch of evil underworld characters were around Satans vacant throne. The ones who dared sit closest were considered the highest ranked.

Mephisto was there and so was Cyttorak whose seats were pretty close to each other.

I don't know much about Insane Genis-Vell but Cyttorak is way overrated/overranked in the battle forum.

Yeah, I took note of Cytorrak in that issue too. Personally I enjoy reading Lance's stuff but I do think much of it is conjecture and the use of old fights (like Ancient One and Eternity) that happened while Marvel was still evolving their ideas about the various universal powers. I mean, we all understand that Classic Strange and Current Strange have entirely different power levels, and that's true for many other entities from that time period as well.

I think Cytorrak, like other rulers of pocket dimensions, has a lot of power, but those power levels vary depending on the size of the pocket dimension. I also tend to see him in the same basic ballpark as Mephisto, Agamotto, or Dormammu, maybe a bit more powerful. I could even buy that he's near Shuma-Gorath (who, incidentally, was also in that same issue of Journey into Mystery where the devils are all sitting around Satan's throne). But I don't buy that he's equal to Eternity or LT. (Or that Shuma is equal to them either.)

@Owie said:

@Dernman said:

In a resent comic a bunch of evil underworld characters were around Satans vacant throne. The ones who dared sit closest were considered the highest ranked.

Mephisto was there and so was Cyttorak whose seats were pretty close to each other.

I don't know much about Insane Genis-Vell but Cyttorak is way overrated/overranked in the battle forum.

Yeah, I took note of Cytorrak in that issue too. Personally I enjoy reading Lance's stuff but I do think much of it is conjecture and the use of old fights (like Ancient One and Eternity) that happened while Marvel was still evolving their ideas about the various universal powers. I mean, we all understand that Classic Strange and Current Strange have entirely different power levels, and that's true for many other entities from that time period as well.

I think Cytorrak, like other rulers of pocket dimensions, has a lot of power, but those power levels vary depending on the size of the pocket dimension. I also tend to see him in the same basic ballpark as Mephisto, Agamotto, or Dormammu, maybe a bit more powerful. I could even buy that he's near Shuma-Gorath (who, incidentally, was also in that same issue of Journey into Mystery where the devils are all sitting around Satan's throne). But I don't buy that he's equal to Eternity or LT. (Or that Shuma is equal to them either.)

Agreed. It's hard to believe some of the characters people believe can take out Eternity and LT

@Dernman: @Owie: I agree. Most people are almost unstoppable in their own dimension. But even in their dimension they can't take powers like Phoenix, PR Beyonder or LT. I don't see Cyttorak as any different. If Cyttorak is so bad how did he get banished in the first place?

@Dernman: @Owie: I agree. Most people are almost unstoppable in their own dimension. But even in their dimension they can't take powers like Phoenix, PR Beyonder or LT. I don't see Cyttorak as any different. If Cyttorak is so bad how did he get banished in the first place?

@Dernman said:

In a resent comic a bunch of evil underworld characters were around Satans vacant throne. The ones who dared sit closest were considered the highest ranked.

Mephisto was there and so was Cyttorak whose seats were pretty close to each other.

I don't know much about Insane Genis-Vell but Cyttorak is way overrated/overranked in the battle forum.

Yeah, I took note of Cytorrak in that issue too. Personally I enjoy reading Lance's stuff but I do think much of it is conjecture and the use of old fights (like Ancient One and Eternity) that happened while Marvel was still evolving their ideas about the various universal powers. I mean, we all understand that Classic Strange and Current Strange have entirely different power levels, and that's true for many other entities from that time period as well.

I think Cytorrak, like other rulers of pocket dimensions, has a lot of power, but those power levels vary depending on the size of the pocket dimension. I also tend to see him in the same basic ballpark as Mephisto, Agamotto, or Dormammu, maybe a bit more powerful. I could even buy that he's near Shuma-Gorath (who, incidentally, was also in that same issue of Journey into Mystery where the devils are all sitting around Satan's throne). But I don't buy that he's equal to Eternity or LT. (Or that Shuma is equal to them either.)

   that happened while Marvel was still evolving their ideas about the various universal powers.

If anything.... Marvel is trying to re-evolve there ideas now. 
Or maybe trying to fix up their mistake within the last 10 years of failed continuities.

I don't know where you got that pic from but it wasn't from that issue.

If he was as great as these forums try to make him out to be he would have been closer if not in fact sat on that thrown himself.

Where he sat shows his rank and power.

Because he wasn't banished in the 1st place. It was the influence that was banished.

1st of all that issue was WIS since all the demons collected to the throne of Satan where inner realm level demons. Cyttorak (perhaps an M-Body wanting to participate) was the only odd ball "demon" in that issue because he is the only extra realm abstract present in that feature presentation. It's like he was just there to cameo, and had nothing to do with the story.

Cyttorak is placed well above Mephisto OR ANY Inner/inter realm demon. 
Cyttorak is placed on the extra-dimsionsional level 

The legend is this: 
Extra-dimension (out of reality) >>> Inter-dimension (splinter realms that boarder reality with idea) >>> Inner-dimension (within reality)

As mentioned above on my link: Dr. Doom acknowledges this by fighting Mephisto and Dormammu. Unlike these two, who Dr. Doom spites without a care of respect, Dr. Doom can not do the same with Cyttorak, but is forced to respect and worship him at the humblest he can get.

No, no, no.... Marvel had their power hierarchy water tight back then. Back when Stan became head Chief, the heirachy was water tight all the way until his retirement.

Haven't you noticed that since Stan left, new writers have been rectconning Marvel's continuity at least 10 times already? Why do they need to retcon the continuity that many times within just that 10 years?

So is there a big contradiction here on "Marvel Evolution" or has someone been trying to change Marvel from it's 30 plus years of water tight ideas since the leave of his predecessor?

Not sure who Genis is...but he looks like Ion after stealing magnetos helmet :)

Also Shuma wouldn't just sit there afloat when thousands of mini demons are around him like that.... 
Using Shuma's in-character logic.... He would drain all of there powers at once and eat all of them for lunch!