Even though I believe Gray Fox is a better ninja, Raiden has better tech giving him the edge
But I prefer Gray Fox but Raiden wins.
-.- I hope my post limit goes away soon.
@cadencev2 well I'm not so sure about the tech specs of both but i do remember Raiden stopping Ocelots ship with one arm I believe his armor is better I could be wrong about that but the one thing that he does have that Gray Fox doesn't is his High Frequency Sword from Olga.
Even though I believe Gray Fox is a better ninja, Raiden has better tech giving him the edge
But I prefer Gray Fox but Raiden wins.
Curious, what better tech? Actually Raiden was lacking the Camo Stealth Tech the Cyborg Ninja had and used in Close Combat. This is Metal Gear Solid 4 Raiden, not Metal Gear Rising where he becomes a super beast.
Uhhh... Raiden? Significantly higher strength based on feats and superior speed (on par with Vamp, who outspeeds Snake, who is about on par with Gray Fox), which are basically the most relevant points since Gray Fox's stealth is useless against an enemy cyborg and his EM shield doesn't matter against a sword.
Edit: I forgot about Gray Fox's railgun, but since Raiden has railgun dodged before I don't think it'll be a factor.
@cadencev2: in mgs4 raiden was tanking wounds that would've killed gray fox. for example in the first vamp fight he was stabbed and cut repeatedly in the chest. and also impaled himself with his own sword (which did leave him in critical condition). also after the shadow moses level where you pilot metal rex raiden cut off both of his arms and was still mobile. he has walked away from some pretty incredible blows. raiden has the edge in everything physically as well. (keeping up with vamps inhuman combat speed and also having a faster reaction time then Vamp as well). He was literally windmilling the gecko mechs in mgs4 that were tied to his legs with their very own cables! pretty good strength feat. I'd give him the tech edge as well given the amount of time between each characters appearance in the games, which is allot of time for technology to be created.
Uhhh... Raiden? Significantly higher strength based on feats and superior speed (on par with Vamp, who outspeeds Snake, who is about on par with Gray Fox), which are basically the most relevant points since Gray Fox's stealth is useless against an enemy cyborg and his EM shield doesn't matter against a sword.
Wow, I have to say you vastly overestimated Vamps speed, after all, Vamp was beaten by Human Raiden. So all that speed is not superior to Fox or Snake in anyway.
Also What Strength Feats does Raiden have over fox to make him superior? The stopping of the ship that he failed to stop and was crushed under? Gray Fox did stop dead and lifted 500 ton Metal Gear Rex Hydralic Power foot stomp with no sweat.
@cadencev2: in mgs4 raiden was tanking wounds that would've killed gray fox. for example in the first vamp fight he was stabbed and cut repeatedly in the chest. and also impaled himself with his own sword (which did leave him in critical condition). also after the shadow moses level where you pilot metal rex raiden cut off both of his arms and was still mobile. he has walked away from some pretty incredible blows. raiden has the edge in everything physically as well. (keeping up with vamps inhuman combat speed and also having a faster reaction time then Vamp as well). He was literally windmilling the gecko mechs in mgs4 that were tied to his legs with their very own cables! pretty good strength feat. I'd give him the tech edge as well given the amount of time between each characters appearance in the games, which is allot of time for technology to be created.
In my opinion, Raiden wins this fight.
Well Im not saying Fox wins, What I will say tanking wounds is not as impressive as Fox who skills where the best in the world and was defeated by the best H2H fighter in the world (pretty much) Solid Snake.
So how does Raiden fare tanking wounds from a Heated High Frequency Blade that can cut ya in half over Vamps dincky Knives and Daggers?
Anyway I am regardless blown away by the overating of Raiden MGS4 Cyborg Body and Skill over Gray Fox who as Null kicked so much butt. That was when he was mere Human.
Cyborg Ninja resume!
This is Grey Fox. One of the best killers in the world and most accomplish member of Fox Hound. At the time he was leagues better than Snake in rankings. On top of this, Fox was already Super Human before being a Cyborg Ninja. Just to grasp how Good Jaeger is, lets look a little at Snake battles with the greatest Mercenary in the World.
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In Metal Gear 2, Snake defeated Gray Fox piloting the Metal Gear itself, then beat Fox in Hand to Hand. Even after the brutal mission Snake been through, he prevails! Frank Jaeger is no mere mercenary either, he was super human before all this!
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Null is Gray Foxe's old name.
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Fox final showdown is with Liquid Snake piloting Rex.
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500+ ton of Hydralic Pressure and Weight of Rex into a stomp. Dodging Vulcan Gun Fire. Mach 2+ Bullets which are far superior to the Ammo Raiden has block which range around Mach 1.5
I think this is alot closer than you all think. My 2 cents anyway.
Wow, I have to say you vastly overestimated Vamps speed, after all, Vamp was beaten by Human Raiden. So all that speed is not superior to Fox or Snake in anyway.
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So fast that he gets behind Raiden without him even realizing it, manhandles Snake showing off superior speed and strength, deflects automatic gun fire (from Raiden) with his knife...
When Raiden tags him, it is because Vamp is screwing around and showing off his bullet timing, which only fails because "his muscles are different". Same deal with the Old Snake fight.
Wow, I have to say you vastly overestimated Vamps speed, after all, Vamp was beaten by Human Raiden. So all that speed is not superior to Fox or Snake in anyway.
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So fast that he gets behind Raiden without him even realizing it, manhandles Snake showing off superior speed and strength, deflects automatic gun fire (from Raiden) with his knife...
When Raiden tags him, it is because Vamp is screwing around and showing off his bullet timing, which only fails because "his muscles are different". Same deal with the Old Snake fight.
Epic wrong....
Vamp here doges 3 shot yet one nicks him. How is this possible? He explains!
Vamp is not faster than bullets at all! He is a Muscle Reader and knows where to dodge before the trigger is pulled. Has nothing to with raw speed or reaction time.
Vamp gets shot by the slow 9mm Round in the head. No didge there.
Vamp gets Sniped in the head, no doge there. He even saw the shot coming!
Shot in the head again by a 5.56 round! No Reaction Bullet Speed at all!
Again your all overating the **** out of non speed feats of Vamp.
Yet Gray Fox has cut 7.56 bullets in half!
This is when he is human.
Here as a Cyborg Ninja he blocks without effort Famas Rifle fire at close range. Doges some of the fastest bullets that is the Vulcan Gun on Metal Gear Rex.
Most of the main characters can deflect bullets with a blade or jump/flip out of the way of an incoming bullet. Heck, mooks in MGS2 equipped with Arsenal Tengu gear can do that. Vamp has shown he can deflect automatic fire with his knife no problem. However, dodging bullets from a stationary position is something else entirely and much more impressive in-universe.
And yeah, he's been sniped twice, but why does he care? He gets shot in the head, he gets up moments later. In both cases he completes his objectives anyways - he knifes Emma and he finishes his phone conversation, so it isn't like getting sniped means "defeat" in any sense.
Most of the main characters can deflect bullets with a blade or jump/flip out of the way of an incoming bullet. Heck, mooks in MGS2 equipped with Arsenal Tengu gear can do that. Vamp has shown he can deflect automatic fire with his knife no problem. However, dodging bullets from a stationary position is something else entirely and much more impressive in-universe.
And yeah, he's been sniped twice, but why does he care? He gets shot in the head, he gets up moments later. In both cases he completes his objectives anyways - he knifes Emma and he finishes his phone conversation, so it isn't like getting sniped means "defeat" in any sense.
Mooks in Tengu Gear can only react and block straight bullets, thus why you shoot their legs. Anyone can block a bullet with a knife if they know where the bullet is going before it is shot.
Point is those are consistent showing of not dodging anything. He could have easily knife Emma and dodge every shot. He didn't. He clearly couldn't.
Seriously, Vamp is so dang overated. As for Grey Fox, why is MGS4 Raiden fatser? I do not see Raiden using any speed feat beside the already over used excuse on forums "He fought Vamp and Vamp is super fast."
Speed is iffy. For all intents and purposes Raiden should be much faster since his tech is superior by the better part of a decade, but by feats they are pretty even. Gray Fox has it by power scaling though, deflecting every shot from expert marksman Solid Snake easily, whereas Vamp (Raiden's better) was tagged by Old Snake. I guess this is on account of the fact that Raiden was cybernetically enhanced whereas Fox had loads of gene therapy in addition to his exoskeleton. Basically, Frank>>Jack, so Cyborg Frank>Cyborg Jack, despite the tech closing the gap a bit.
Raiden has strength quite obviously. Sure Fox could easily hold up REX's foot, and even flip the mech with some effort in the DGN, but in all honesty Raiden could probably do that too. Pinwheeling three Gekko is quite an underrated feat for Jack considering he did it in such an unbelievably awkward way. If he opted to just pick the things up he could probably toss them across the whole town. And speaking of tossing things, it's unclear whether Raiden received any further enhancements by the time of Revengeance, but his suit is visibly exactly the same, so it's safe to say he didn't. And we all know what he did to Ray... If that's not enough the 200,000 ton warship still trumps everything. Yeah sure holding back =/= lifting up, but a 500 ton REX is a far cry from an Arsenal class sub anyway.
Skill is the real reason I give Raiden the win. His feats of dexterity are far superior to Gray Fox -- however as a Metal Gear fan I can not in good conscience say that Raiden is a better fighter than Frank Jaeger. I'm sure anyone who knows the lore will agree with me.
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Now Jack the Ripper on the other hand? An entirely different ball game. Once Raiden accepted his Blood Knight status, he became much closer to Solid Snake and Big Boss in terms of skill. Jack the Ripper, even in his MGS4 body, stomps Gray Fox. If it's Raiden with his pre-Revengeance mentality, then maybe we'll talk.
@cadencev2 In Vamp's defense, muscle reading was his greatest skill, but he by no means required it to bullet time. This is displayed in the very scans you posted - Vamp couldn't read Raiden (whether it be thanks to the Skull Suit or what) by his own admittance, yet he still dodged a barrage of gunfire during the same cutscene without even moving from his position. Old Snake shot him by surprise so that scene has no bearing on his speed (Vamp couldn't dodge by sound since said bullet traveled faster than sound). The sniper scene is kind of cut and dry, but to be fair, Vamp did dodge a whole bunch of Raiden's shots before finally getting nailed. Considering the bullets from such a gun are over mach 2 in speed, and Vamp was holding Emma so he couldn't properly dodge/maneuver, I don't think it's really a strike against him.
@nickzambuto: There is 2 things you did not include in your argument Nick.
1) Gray Fox does have Cloaking and fights invisible as well.
2) Raidens MGS4 Sword has broken and not in anyway a Frequency Blade like Gray Foxes.
3) Also I think him holding the ship back is a BS feat when it clearly was stop by the Concrete Pier it ran aground on, Jack was crushed under it. Not much of a feat. I also have stopped and slow down a 2 ton Humvee that rolled down a slight hill. Means I am not a 2 toner :)
3 things I want you to address. :)
Also in the scans I think Vamp is not a bullet timer. He still read Raidens moves. Just not "as well" as a normal cat.
@nickzambuto: There is 2 things you did not include in your argument Nick.
1) Gray Fox does have Cloaking and fights invisible as well.
2) Raidens MGS4 Sword has broken and not in anyway a Frequency Blade like Gray Foxes.
3) Also I think him holding the ship back is a BS feat when it clearly was stop by the Concrete Pier it ran aground on, Jack was crushed under it. Not much of a feat. I also have stopped and slow down a 2 ton Humvee that rolled down a slight hill. Means I am not a 2 toner :)
3 things I want you to address. :)
Also in the scans I think Vamp is not a bullet timer. He still read Raidens moves. Just not "as well" as a normal cat.
You're right, I forgot to take into account Gray Fox's cloaking. However stealth camo is known for being susceptible to infrared, and Jack has Augment Mode. There's also Monsoon who used red phosphorous grenades so his opponent's wouldn't see him coming, and Raiden beat him.
The FOX Blade is a lot stronger than Raiden's sword, but I don't really see that having much of an affect on the battle. It's not like Frank is going to chop Raiden's sword in half.
I'm having a little trouble deciphering the grammar of your third point. The ship wasn't stopped by the pier, it clearly ran right through until Raiden came over and held it in place for a good minute or two. If you can stop a humvee going downhill than you're a beast; most people get crushed in the same scenario. If you want to argue this then I'll just play Devil's Advocate and say you're right. Strength isn't the reason Raiden wins, it's because of Jack the Ripper.
2) Raidens MGS4 Sword has broken and not in anyway a Frequency Blade like Gray Foxes.
His sword breaks in MGS4? I'll be honest, I don't remember that at all.
3) Also I think him holding the ship back is a BS feat when it clearly was stop by the Concrete Pier it ran aground on
You can see the front of the ship bent inwards due to the force Raiden exerted on it. Metal doesn't just bend like that unless you put some serious force on it.
I can not in good conscience say that Raiden is a better fighter than Frank Jaeger. I'm sure anyone who knows the lore will agree with me.
They've both lived a life dedicated to warfare, but Frank has lived longer, and he's had more experience fighting with a blade, so yeah, skill-wise I think he might have Raiden beat.
I can not in good conscience say that Raiden is a better fighter than Frank Jaeger. I'm sure anyone who knows the lore will agree with me.
They've both lived a life dedicated to warfare, but Frank has lived longer, and he's had more experience fighting with a blade, so yeah, skill-wise I think he might have Raiden beat.
Like I said though, Jack is an entirely different game from Raiden.
You're right, I forgot to take into account Gray Fox's cloaking. However stealth camo is known for being susceptible to infrared, and Jack has Augment Mode. There's also Monsoon who used red phosphorous grenades so his opponent's wouldn't see him coming, and Raiden beat him.
I'm having a little trouble deciphering the grammar of your third point. The ship wasn't stopped by the pier, it clearly ran right through until Raiden came over and held it in place for a good minute or two. If you can stop a humvee going downhill than you're a beast; most people get crushed in the same scenario. If you want to argue this then I'll just play Devil's Advocate and say you're right. Strength isn't the reason Raiden wins, it's because of Jack the Ripper.
Raiden does not have that mode (as far as I know from MGS4 scense) in MGS4.
It happen, It was not a major slope. Just some a$$hole forget to put the E Brake On, left it in neutral, and down it rolled on a slight slope. It is actually not that hard to slow it down when it is going 5-6 MPH. Point is Jack was crushed and the Tanker kept going, not a 200,000 ton feat by any margin.
You're right, I forgot to take into account Gray Fox's cloaking. However stealth camo is known for being susceptible to infrared, and Jack has Augment Mode. There's also Monsoon who used red phosphorous grenades so his opponent's wouldn't see him coming, and Raiden beat him.
I'm having a little trouble deciphering the grammar of your third point. The ship wasn't stopped by the pier, it clearly ran right through until Raiden came over and held it in place for a good minute or two. If you can stop a humvee going downhill than you're a beast; most people get crushed in the same scenario. If you want to argue this then I'll just play Devil's Advocate and say you're right. Strength isn't the reason Raiden wins, it's because of Jack the Ripper.
Raiden does not have that mode (as far as I know from MGS4 scense) in MGS4.
It happen, It was not a major slope. Just some a$$hole forget to put the E Brake On, left it in neutral, and down it rolled on a slight slope. It is actually not that hard to slow it down when it is going 5-6 MPH. Point is Jack was crushed and the Tanker kept going, not a 200,000 ton feat by any margin.
His visor has at least a few vision modes, and infrared is kind of a no brainer.
No it's not a 200,000 ton feat, but it's sure as hell a couple thousand. I'm positive Raiden could physically lift at least 1% of the weight he held back. If you held back 2 tons, one percent of that is 40 pounds. I'm sure you can lift more than that.
His visor has at least a few vision modes, and infrared is kind of a no brainer.
No it's not a 200,000 ton feat, but it's sure as hell a couple thousand. I'm positive Raiden could physically lift at least 1% of the weight he held back. If you held back 2 tons, one percent of that is 40 pounds. I'm sure you can lift more than that.
I like to see a Statement or feat he does, otherwise it is speculation :)
I think the most "Accurate" feat is the Gecko one. He was able to kick swing 2 Geckos around. That is more close to Grey Fox and the only real calculable feat.
Raiden does not have that mode (as far as I know from MGS4 scense) in MGS4.
He has an integrated solid eye, which can detect infrared.
Point is Jack was crushed and the Tanker kept going, not a 200,000 ton feat by any margin.
He survived and only lost his other arm, and he was still in enough shape that he could fight with no arms, although not as well as had before. The Tanker seemed to have been halted enough. He certainly didn't lift the thing, but still impressive.
His visor has at least a few vision modes, and infrared is kind of a no brainer.
No it's not a 200,000 ton feat, but it's sure as hell a couple thousand. I'm positive Raiden could physically lift at least 1% of the weight he held back. If you held back 2 tons, one percent of that is 40 pounds. I'm sure you can lift more than that.
I like to see a Statement or feat he does, otherwise it is speculation :)
I think the most "Accurate" feat is the Gecko one. He was able to kick swing 2 Geckos around. That is more close to Grey Fox and the only real calculable feat.
Well I doubt the visor was there just for decoration. It might be an assumption, but I think it's a pretty fair one. Bladewolf had the same headset in Revengeance, and displayed several vision modes.
Raiden does not have that mode (as far as I know from MGS4 scense) in MGS4.
He has an integrated solid eye, which can detect infrared.
Point is Jack was crushed and the Tanker kept going, not a 200,000 ton feat by any margin.
He survived and only lost his other arm, and he was still in enough shape that he could fight with no arms, although not as well as had before. The Tanker seemed to have been halted enough. He certainly didn't lift the thing, but still impressive.
Ok that works for me. I do remember him telling Snake to use his Infered to pick up the tracks in front of him.
However real world factors come to play. How fast was it traveling? Was it still using engines (if it was it should have never stopped) or cruising on momentum alone? How much of it did Raiden hold back and how much was the Concrete Pier? Was it exactly 200,000 tons? How much (from a physics stance) force did Raiden needed to slow it down at all rather than lift it?
It is a stupid feat to base anything on as it has hundreds of subtle variables playing a role. Add to that it failed as a feat since Raiden was crushed under it, took major damage, and in the end did not actually stopped it at all.
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