First off, Hal doesn't have a decent way to put Surfer down. His blasts can be tanked and or absorbed, and the same thing goes to his constructs.
Surfer also can transmute Hal, or his ring, and IIRC, Hal doesn' have any feats shown to resist transmuting, and neither has the ring. Though I'm willing to budge on the surfer transmuting the ring if shown substantial evidence to prove otherwise. Next off, Surfer can and will atomize and or obliterate hal. Unless Hal can resist molecular deconstruction or matter manipulation.
First off, Hal doesn't have a decent way to put Surfer down. His blasts can be tanked and or absorbed, and the same thing goes to his constructs.
Surfer also can transmute Hal, or his ring, and IIRC, Hal doesn' have any feats shown to resist transmuting, and neither has the ring. Though I'm willing to budge on the surfer transmuting the ring if shown substantial evidence to prove otherwise. Next off, Surfer can and will atomize and or obliterate hal. Unless Hal can resist molecular deconstruction or matter manipulation.
First off, Hal doesn't have a decent way to put Surfer down. His blasts can be tanked and or absorbed, and the same thing goes to his constructs.
Well, I would retort that his blasts have proven strong enough to blow through Amazo who had scanned the powers of the entire Justice League, blow up planets, deconstruct stars, has energy beams that are as hot as the sun, etc. So tanking might not be the best way to go about it.
In addition, I'd also like to point out that Hal can just as easily block Surfer's blasts as well, as he was shown capable of holding back the power of an exploding star, and much more with his shields.
As for absorbing, we can't assume that Surfer can absorb a power source he's never come across before. Being able to absorb radiation and such doesn't equate to being able to absorb Hal's constructs. He can block them/defend against them, but not absorb them.
Surfer also can transmute Hal, or his ring, and IIRC, Hal doesn' have any feats shown to resist transmuting, and neither has the ring. Though I'm willing to budge on the surfer transmuting the ring if shown substantial evidence to prove otherwise.
Both Hal and his ring are protected by auto-shields, which are pretty much exactly for Hax abilities like transmuting and such.
And on top of that, he can transmute as well. He was able to transmute Flash, Superman, Batman, and himself into "Negative Radiant Energy."
So I think as far as transmutation goes, Jordan is safe.
Next off, Surfer can and will atomize and or obliterate hal. Unless Hal can resist molecular deconstruction or matter manipulation.
Again, that's pretty much the same thing as transmutation. And Hal and his ring have auto-shields to protect him from that.
Not that it should matter, as Surfer never EVER goes for transmutation, likely because he isn't powerful enough to do so to a powerful being.
Thor is able to smack Surfer around, and yet Surfer's never just transmuted him and his hammer.
Well, I would retort that his blasts have proven strong enough to blow through Amazo who had scanned the powers of the entire Justice League, blow up planets, deconstruct stars, has energy beams that are as hot as the sun, etc. So tanking might not be the best way to go about it.
In addition, I'd also like to point out that Hal can just as easily block Surfer's blasts as well, as he was shown capable of holding back the power of an exploding star, and much more with his shields.
As for absorbing, we can't assume that Surfer can absorb a power source he's never come across before. Being able to absorb radiation and such doesn't equate to being able to absorb Hal's constructs. He can block them/defend against them, but not absorb them.
Thats all very well, but's it's really nothing Surfer can't tank to the face.
I'm aware of the contain a star feat, but proof he can block a planetary level blasts with just his shields?
And surfers been described as a cosmic battery, he can absorb all forms of energy, not just radiation. He can very well absorb his attacks.
Both Hal and his ring are protected by auto-shields, which are pretty much exactly for Hax abilities like transmuting and such.
And on top of that, he can transmute as well. He was able to transmute Flash, Superman, Batman, and himself into "Negative Radiant Energy."
I'm aware of auto shields, but those really only protect against energy blasts and the like. Unless you can provide scans of him and his ring blocking transmutation or matter manipulation on the level of surfer
And fair point, but having transmution abilities don't grant you protection against them :p
Again, that's pretty much the same thing as transmutation. And Hal and his ring have auto-shields to protect him from that.
Not that it should matter, as Surfer never EVER goes for transmutation, likely because he isn't powerful enough to do so to a powerful being.
Scans?
And surfer does go for atomization/transmutation/ and matter manipulation a lot
He even atomized a foe recently
and he was able to transmute a guy into a liquid,
Thor is able to smack Surfer around, and yet Surfer's never just transmuted him and his hammer.
In their most recent fight, Surfer wasn't trying to fight Thor. But he still stomped him when he got serious.
Thats all very well, but's it's really nothing Surfer can't tank to the face.
Surfer can tank the power of the sun to the face? Hardly, he's certainly been hurt by less.
I'm aware of the contain a star feat, but proof he can block a planetary level blasts with just his shields?
With just his shields? When did I say that? No, his shields would likely go down to a planetary blast. However, he has used those shields to block Superman, who as we know is a bonafied planet buster, as well as many other planetary threats. Just food for thought.
And surfers been described as a cosmic battery, he can absorb all forms of energy, not just radiation. He can very well absorb his attacks.
Even if we assume that Surfer can absorb his attacks, Hal can do this to all of Surfer's:
Turns an energy blast into confetti
Plus, Hal can absorb energy as well:
I'm aware of auto shields, but those really only protect against energy blasts and the like. Unless you can provide scans of him and his ring blocking transmutation or matter manipulation on the level of surfer
Auto shields protect against everything, that's why they're auto! And again, Surfer hasn't shown that he can manipulate someone on Hal's level, whereas Hal has shown capable of transmuting even Superman!
And fair point, but having transmution abilities don't grant you protection against them :p
Pshh, then where are Surfer's transmutation resistance feats? Hmmm?!?!?
As for all the transmutation feats you showed, none of them showed anything against an opponent as powerful as Hal Jordan.
Plus, everything Surfer's done, Hal could replicate easily!
Heck, Hal did the EXACT opposite of one of the feats you posted!
Gallery
Turns Adam Strange from water, back to human form.
I see nothing proving that Surfer has anything on good ole Hal!
And as for this...
In their most recent fight, Surfer wasn't trying to fight Thor. But he still stomped him when he got serious.
Not the point! The point is, Surfer doesn't transmute Thor or Mjolnir because his powers aren't on that level! So likewise it wouldn't work against Hal!
Oh, and btw. Thor has more wins against Surfer in their fights then vice-versa. Just sayin!
Thats all very well, but's it's really nothing Surfer can't tank to the face.
Given Thor can dent Surfers head with a heabutt...it kind of is.
Only problem is it won't knock him out, it'll burst him into pieces which is actually less effective.
Precisely this. We're talking about a guy who did this casually:
With no real signs of exertion.
Not to mention his time manipulation, phasing, telepathy, and molecular/matter manipulation which I believe is at the very least comparable to Surfer, if not equal/superior.
Surfer can tank the power of the sun to the face? Hardly, he's certainly been hurt by less.
Hal only rekindled a dyng star, he didn't put out that much energy. But surfer can most certainly absorb the energy of a star
With just his shields? When did I say that? No, his shields would likely go down to a planetary blast. However, he has used those shields to block Superman, who as we know is a bonafied planet buster, as well as many other planetary threats. Just food for thought.
Pre-52 superman is a moon buster, and not even casually . But you said yourself planetary blasts would take down his shields, so its really moot point for now. However, this does mean all surfer has to do is fire two blasts. One to break the shield, and another to one-shot hal
Even if we assume that Surfer can absorb his attacks, Hal can do this to all of Surfer's:
Really now? :p I doubt that clowns blasts were even city level. And Hals not exactly absorbing an energy blast, more or less doing something involving the lantern
Auto shields protect against everything, that's why they're auto! And again, Surfer hasn't shown that he can manipulate someone on Hal's level, whereas Hal has shown capable of transmuting even Superman!
Auto implies automatic, not protect against everything mate. And someone on hals level? What? Why should status matter when matter manipulating? All of hals stats are irrelevant to the fact of surfer manipulating hal. Now again mate, scans of hal resisting manipulation on the scale of surfers level
Pshh, then where are Surfer's transmutation resistance feats? Hmmm?!?!?
As for all the transmutation feats you showed, none of them showed anything against an opponent as powerful as Hal Jordan.
Plus, everything Surfer's done, Hal could replicate easily!
I said having transmutation doesn't grant one resistance against not, not the other way around :P
And I reiterate, Being powerful doesn't make you resistant to transmutation or matter manipulation
And really? Show me hal doing something like this
that, or rebuilding a city, permanently
Heck, Hal did the EXACT opposite of one of the feats you posted!
Thats cool mate, but turning someone from a liquid into a solid on't warrant much use in battle unless you battling a bucket of water.
I see nothing proving that Surfer has anything on good ole Hal!
Oh i haven't even started yet
For one, Surfer is capable of messing with hal's insides and then killing him
He could also constrict him by his clothing, or turn his costume into a cocoon
Gallery
Not the point! The point is, Surfer doesn't transmute Thor or Mjolnir because his powers aren't on that level! So likewise it wouldn't work against Hal!
Surfer didn't transmute Mjlornir or thor because he wasn't trying to hurt thor in that incident. However, he hasn't tried yet to my knowledge, so it's still possible he could :p
Oh, and btw. Thor has more wins against Surfer in their fights then vice-versa. Just sayin!
They only fought once since post annihilation, and surfer won that time I recall!
Hal only rekindled a dyng star, he didn't put out that much energy. But surfer can most certainly absorb the energy of a star
Nooo, I mean actually put out the power of the sun!
Pre-52 superman is a moon buster, and not even casually .
Um, no. Pre52 Superman has the strength to pull planets and stuff.
But you said yourself planetary blasts would take down his shields, so its really moot point for now.
Not in one hit, but yeah they would eventually wear down. But then Hal could just put more up, or block attacks with his constructs.
However, this does mean all surfer has to do is fire two blasts. One to break the shield, and another to one-shot hal
No sir. Again, Hal can absorb the attack. Or he can turn it into confetti. Or he can block it with the constructs. Or he can phase through it.
And even IF we assume that Surfer manages to take down his shields, Surfer isn't gonna take him out with just one blast. Hal's durability is too high.
Plus, you haven't even shown me Surfer busting out a planet busting attack! So ha!
Really now? :p I doubt that clowns blasts were even city level.
Oh, so what you're saying is that because Hal hasn't demonstrated the ability to transmute the energy blasts of someone on the level of Surfer, that we can't assume he can?
Hmm, that argument sounds EXACTLY like the one I'm trying to say about transmutation! You're assuming that because Surfer transmutes people weaker than Hal, he can also transmute Hal. Likewise, I'm assuming that because Hal can transmute energy beams weaker than Surfer's, he can transmute Surfer's!
Sooo, either we're both right, or we're both wrong. (Hint, we're both wrong.)
And Hals not exactly absorbing an energy blast, more or less doing something involving the lantern
Oh no, he's absorbing the energy of the Yellow Corps. That's energy absorption my friend. And since you seem to be under the idea that Surfer can just absorb Green Lantern's blast even though he's never shown to be able to do so, the same could be said vice-versa.
No double standards my friend!
Auto implies automatic, not protect against everything mate.
They automatically adapt and protect against any threat, whether it be speed, power, magic, etc. That would include matter manipulation.
And someone on hals level? What? Why should status matter when matter manipulating? All of hals stats are irrelevant to the fact of surfer manipulating hal.
Because Hal can manipulate matter and energy as well, so we can't assume it will work on him.
Now again mate, scans of hal resisting manipulation on the scale of surfers level
I'll ask again mate! Scans of SURFER resisting manipulation on the scale of Hal's?
And Hal has done this:
Casually transmutes multiple nuclear missiles into green snow.
I said having transmutation doesn't grant one resistance against not, not the other way around :P
And I reiterate, Being powerful doesn't make you resistant to transmutation or matter manipulation
Exactly. So, I'm saying where are Surfer's molecular manipulation/transmutation resistance feats? You're asking them from Hal, what about Surfer? What's stopping Hal from doing the exact same thing you say Surfer's gonna do?!?!
And really? Show me hal doing something like this
I don't see what was so impressive about that. He turned something into gold. I literally just showed you Hal turning nuclear missiles into snow, and he did is casually too!
Multiple nuclear missiles >>>> A napkin dispenser.
that, or rebuilding a city, permanently
Cuz you asked so nicely...
Gallery
Hal recreates the entirety of his hometown Coast City, complete with people and buildings and wildlife, ect.
In fact, I'll do even better.
Hal's power is so strong, that even after he DIED, the remaining sentient energy of him left in his ring was able to do this:
Gallery
The pictures are backwards for whatever reason, but you get the point! Read them from right to left
I don't know if you can tell, but that's Hal rebuilding the ENTIRE PLANET OF OA, with its advanced technology and everything.
What has Surfer done that can top THAT?!?!?!
Thats cool mate, but turning someone from a liquid into a solid on't warrant much use in battle unless you battling a bucket of water.
Well you felt the need to post Surfer turning someone into a solid to a liquid, so I just countered by posting Hal doing the exact opposite. Just because I can!
Oh i haven't even started yet
For one, Surfer is capable of messing with hal's insides and then killing him
Heck no he can't, Hal can phase!
He could also constrict him by his clothing, or turn his costume into a cocoon
It's not a costume bro!
What you see there is pure energy Hal is wearing. It's the same energy that he makes constructs with, it's not actually clothing. Soooo no Surfer-clothes-constricting tonight! Booyah!!!
Surfer didn't transmute Mjlornir or thor because he wasn't trying to hurt thor in that incident. However, he hasn't tried yet to my knowledge, so it's still possible he could :p
They only fought once since post annihilation, and surfer won that time I recall!
Thor and Silver Surfer have fought EIGHT times if my memory serves me correctly.
And in those eight times, Surfer has only won ONCE, and it doesn't count because he was amped by Loki.
Thor has won FIVE times.
I will admit though, one of those times Thor was amped by the Power Gem, and the other he was mind-controlled and bloodlusted, while Surfer was trying to protect Beta Ray Bill.
So really, he's only won three times.
BUT that's still three times when he's NEVER used Molecular/Matter Manipulation against an enemy with no real resistance to it! That shows that he might not be able to do it on an opponent as powerful as Thor and Hal!
Nooo, I mean actually put out the power of the sun!
Thats just the heat of the sun mate :p
And surfer resists that regularly
Um, no. Pre52 Superman has the strength to pull planets and stuff.
Naw brah. Pulling strength =/= striking force
Not in one hit, but yeah they would eventually wear down. But then Hal could just put more up, or block attacks with his constructs.
He'lll get hit eventually when Surfers firing in quick succession, and one-shotting them in quick succession at the same time. And that one hit from surfer is all it'll take to kill Hal
No sir. Again, Hal can absorb the attack. Or he can turn it into confetti. Or he can block it with the constructs. Or he can phase through it.
And even IF we assume that Surfer manages to take down his shields, Surfer isn't gonna take him out with just one blast. Hal's durability is too high.
Plus, you haven't even shown me Surfer busting out a planet busting attack! So ha!
He really can't do any of those. And I'll explain why later in the post
And the main reason for hal's shields to to protect him from extreammly strong attacks, I'm not sure he can take a planetary attack without them.
And you want planet busting? Sure, and I'll provide a recent one too >:U
And that was just to make a point. And, this happened before his upgrade
Oh, so what you're saying is that because Hal hasn't demonstrated the ability to transmute the energy blasts of someone on the level of Surfer, that we can't assume he can?
Hmm, that argument sounds EXACTLY like the one I'm trying to say about transmutation! You're assuming that because Surfer transmutes people weaker than Hal, he can also transmute Hal. Likewise, I'm assuming that because Hal can transmute energy beams weaker than Surfer's, he can transmute Surfer's!
No, not at all!. I'm saying the blasts can't be transmuted because their not even city level. Your saying Hal can't be transmuted because surfer never did it to someone on his level. However
Those two are very different things. To transmute blasts, loggically it would become harder and harder depending on the power the blasts contains.
To resist transmuting, you'll need to have feats of doing said thing.
Following me?
Oh no, he's absorbing the energy of the Yellow Corps. That's energy absorption my friend. And since you seem to be under the idea that Surfer can just absorb Green Lantern's blast even though he's never shown to be able to do so, the same could be said vice-versa.
No double standards my friend!
Well thats neat again, but has the energy he's absorbing shown to bust a planet? Like-wise, all of it is being divied up among the other green ;lanterns, and not just himself; So, even if all the energy their absorbing is planetary level, it still wouldn't count much a against someone who regularly puts out that amount of energy on a whim
They automatically adapt and protect against any threat, whether it be speed, power, magic, etc. That would include matter manipulation.
Do you have any proof to back this claim up? Or direct feats of it resisting matter manip?
Because Hal can manipulate matter and energy as well, so we can't assume it will work on him.
Read above mate
I'll ask again mate! Scans of SURFER resisting manipulation on the scale of Hal's?
And Hal has done this:
Surfer was able to take matter manipulation from galactus and fully heal himself :p
and also shrugged off a blast from a gun that atomizes
Exactly. So, I'm saying where are Surfer's molecular manipulation/transmutation resistance feats? You're asking them from Hal, what about Surfer? What's stopping Hal from doing the exact same thing you say Surfer's gonna do?!?!
See above :p And now mate, the burden of proof is on you.
n fact, I'll do even better.
Hal's power is so strong, that even after he DIED, the remaining sentient energy of him left in his ring was able to do this:
Gallery
The pictures are backwards for whatever reason, but you get the point! Read them from right to left
I don't know if you can tell, but that's Hal rebuilding the ENTIRE PLANET OF OA, with its advanced technology and everything.
What has Surfer done that can top THAT?!?!?!
Theres a difference between matter manipulation and constructs. But I recall that wasn't hal who reconstructed OA, it was tom? Now that it really matters, rebuilding doesn't really warrant attention in a battle
Well you felt the need to post Surfer turning someone into a solid to a liquid, so I just countered by posting Hal doing the exact opposite. Just because I can!
Fair enough then.
Heck no he can't, Hal can phase!
Phaseing doesn't protect someone from having their insides scrambled like eggs!
t's not a costume bro!
What you see there is pure energy Hal is wearing. It's the same energy that he makes constructs with, it's not actually clothing. Soooo no Surfer-clothes-constricting tonight! Booyah!!!
Then.. Can't surfer just absorb his clothing? Im sure that'll make for an awkward moment for Hal that surfer can take advantage of!
Thor and Silver Surfer have fought EIGHT times if my memory serves me correctly.
And in those eight times, Surfer has only won ONCE, and it doesn't count because he was amped by Loki.
Thor has won FIVE times.
I will admit though, one of those times Thor was amped by the Power Gem, and the other he was mind-controlled and bloodlusted, while Surfer was trying to protect Beta Ray Bill.
So really, he's only won three times.
BUT that's still three times when he's NEVER used Molecular/Matter Manipulation against an enemy with no real resistance to it! That shows that he might not be able to do it on an opponent as powerful as Thor and Hal!
Do you have scans of any of the encounters where surfer was fully serious?
Plus, none of those loses really count, due to the fact none of them are post annihilation.
Post annihilation surfer was able to tank thors planet level attacks and beat him handily. Though I believe the fight was interrupted, still, surfer got the clear upper-hand whenever he got serious! :>U
P.S. Not bad for an uphill battle, huh? ;)
Not bad at all mate. This is one of the funnest and casual debates I've had since Pokergeist/CadenceV2.
@highaccuser: It only bothered him, he showed no sign of real damage or hurt.
Doesn't matter if he ignored the harm, it was still there.
All things considered, Surfer shouldn't be able to ignore Supernovas and tank the cores of sun given how often attacks many magnitudes weaker than that have harmed him.
@highaccuser: It only bothered him, he showed no sign of real damage or hurt.
Doesn't matter if he ignored the harm, it was still there.
All things considered, Surfer shouldn't be able to ignore Supernovas and tank the cores of sun given how often attacks many magnitudes weaker than that have harmed him.
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