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#1 Edited by Dane (10596 posts) - - Show Bio

Location


Church
 
 

Teams

Ferro Vida 
Cable - PM-9 sub machine gun, M6OE4 light machine gun, Barrett 50cal with scope, SPAS 12 shotgun, frag and semtex grenades, claymores, flash and concussive grenades, 2 desert eagles, 2 plasma carbines
Toph - Unarmed.
Angel - broadsword, spring-loaded wrist blades.
Blink - Quiver of throwing-quills.
Iron Fist  - Unarmed.
 
Dane
Deathstroke - Prometheum Armor, Prometheum Broadsword, Prometheum Staff, M16A3 Assault Rifle, Silenced Colt .45, Frag Grenades, Flashbangs.
Bullseye - Hawkeye Costume, Custom Bow, Hawkeye's Trick Arrows, Throwing Knives, Twin Sai.
Daken - Muramasa Claws.
Temugin - Unarmed.
Adam Jensen -  Fully Augmented, Whisperhead Silenced .416 Sniper Rifle, Diamondback .357 Revolver, Zenith 10mm Silenced Pistol, Gas Grenades, EMP Grenades, Frag Grenades, Mine Templates.
#2 Posted by Illuminatus (9509 posts) - - Show Bio

Bullseye? Weren't reality-manipulators not allowed?

#3 Posted by _Black (2302 posts) - - Show Bio

@Illuminatus said:

Bullseye? Weren't reality-manipulators not allowed?

Lol.

#4 Posted by Dane (10596 posts) - - Show Bio

Let's do this Ferro :D. Best of luck to you my friend.
 

Opening Arguments

Ok, basically I think my biggest advantage over you is Gypsy. She can make my whole team invisible and untrackable. Daken's senses and Adam Jensen's enhanced vision mean I will know where your team is. For you it will appear as if the Church is empty. For we get into Cable's telepathy countering this I'll say that her abilities have worked against everyone she has used them on in DCU. Including Despero (scans at bottom of page). It's open and shut after that. Deathstroke is far too tactically intelligent to fail to get the job done with every advantage in his favor. We're invisible, you can't attack us. We can attack you.
 
-Adam Jensen runs at your team (invisible and at super speed) and uses his Typhoon (a rather large 360 degree claymore-type explosive from the future) and obliterates most of your team.
-Daken stabs Angel through the heart, Muramasa Claw rendering Angel's small healing factor useless. Angel dies.
-Jensen throws an EMP grenade at what is left of Cable, rendering his cybernetic regenerative system inert. Cable also dies.
-Bullseye complains loudly that he didn't get to kill anyone.
-Deathstroke shouts everyone pizza.
 
I mean there are honestly 50 ways my team could kill yours, but that one probably takes less than 2 seconds. Look forward to your rebuttal, have plenty of scans of Adam Jensen if you're unfamiliar with him.
 
 
Gypsy vs Despero - Just to show that her invisibility works against high-order telepaths.
 
#5 Posted by Ferro Vida (34678 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane: Best of luck to you too, friend. 
 
It is for this very possibility that I included Toph on my team. As long as her feet are on the ground she can essentially "see" everything that is connected to the stone of the Church. That means I get an instant map of the location, and, because your team is all standing in the Church, their location. Even is she IS invisible, she wouldn't be able to phase the team and still have them be effective, and as long as they are solid Toph can pinpoint their location. On top of that Danny Rand has heighten awareness. These aren't any old enhanced senses, though. They are enhanced to the point that he can do this (see bottom of page). 
 
Now that alone gives me a chance to avoid instant destruction. But if you add to that the fact that Cable telepathy is linking the minds of my team then they should be able to avoid your attack.  
 
- Blink opens up a portal for the charging Jensen to run in to, teleporting him behind the rest of his team mates so that the explosive hits you instead. 
- Cable uses Toph's mental map to put a bullet in Gypsy's head. 
- In the confusion, Blink teleports Angel and IF into the middle of your team. Angel snaps Bullseye's neck. Daken wouldn't know to aim for his heart or to cut his head off, so even if he does manage to hit Angel the odds of it being fatal are minimal, and Angel has the speed and skill to compete with him, and a huge advantage in strength. 
- IF punches Adam's head off. 
- Blink teleports Slade a moment out of time, knocking him out (she displaces the person for a fraction of a second, causing no permanent damage, but incapacitating them). 
 
I look forward to you telling me why I'm wrong :)
 
#6 Posted by Dane (10596 posts) - - Show Bio
@Ferro Vida: I think I may have miscommunicated how Gypsy's powers work. She is unconsciously, but telepathically telling everyone around her (unless she chooses otherwise) "There is no one here." Even if someone has enhanced senses, their brain is telling them nothing is there. Just because Toph has another sense, doesn't mean it can override her brains interpretation of that sense. She could be standing in front of you, your eyes actually do register she is there, but when your eyes send that signal to the brain, the brain is saying "Sorry eyes, I've got different information, there is nothing here". It wouldn't matter if it was Wolverine, Daredevil, Toph, anyone. That is the illusion. And as I said, it even works on extremely high tier telepaths, so it can't be defended against by Cable.
 
Although the rest of your post may or may not be irrelevant, I would suggest Blink cannot teleport Adam Jensen. He is moving far, far too fast for her to react.
 
#7 Posted by Ferro Vida (34678 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane: Alright, this is new information. The scan led me to believe it was simple invisibility. Does she automatically focus on a particular sense, or does it block off all senses of the target? And would your party start off cloaked, or would she have to activate it after the fight began? 
 
And in response to the Adam Jensen bit, then Iron Fist would go after him instead. Danny is fast enough to react to him, and his chi manipulation has let him survive bigger explosions unscathed. I'll dig up the scans if you want.
#8 Posted by Dane (10596 posts) - - Show Bio
@Ferro Vida: It's totally unconscious in that affects everyone without her concentrating specifically. But it is certainly an illusion that she casts over herself and others. I can't say if my party starts cloaked, she can keep the ability up for about an hour or two afaik. I don't even know if we start within visible distance from/to each other.
 
I believe you about Iron Fist, but ultimately I don't think it will matter. He will be blasted off his feet either way, which is enough for an escape. Did I mention Adam Jensen has his own technological invisibility and total sound dampener? Apart from Gypsy's abilities he can also operate totally invisible and his cybernetic body can operate in total silence even when he is sprinting, jumping, doing acrobatics etc and as a Cyborg he has virtually very little actual bodily tissue left. There wouldn't be a lot Iron Fist could do to detect him.
#9 Edited by Ferro Vida (34678 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane: Does it even affect the people she is cloaking? Does she have to remain touching them in order for them to stay cloaked? And does it only affect regular senses? Toph doesn't see the way most people do; she's blind, and instead sees through Earthbending. Would Gypsy's powers still affect something like that? 
 
Ah, Jensen can't turn invisible. That is explicitly against the rules of the tournament (EDIT: Scratch that, I just double checked). And would his body still give off heat? Would the air still rush past him as he moved? He would still show up as a empty spot in the world, even if he was invisible.
#10 Posted by Andy Steven Summers (5234 posts) - - Show Bio

Best of luck with the debate guys.

#11 Posted by Ferro Vida (34678 posts) - - Show Bio
@Andy Steven Summers: Thanks, Andy!
#12 Posted by Dane (10596 posts) - - Show Bio
@Andy Steven Summers: Cheers Andy :D
#13 Posted by Dane (10596 posts) - - Show Bio
@Ferro Vida said:
@Dane: Does it even affect the people she is cloaking? Does she have to remain touching them in order for them to stay cloaked? And does it only affect regular senses? Toph doesn't see the way most people do; she's blind, and instead sees through Earthbending. Would Gypsy's powers still affect something like that?  Ah, Jensen can't turn invisible. That is explicitly against the rules of the tournament (EDIT: Scratch that, I just double checked). And would his body still give off heat? Would the air still rush past him as he moved? He would still show up as a empty spot in the world, even if he was invisible.
It does. She doesn't have to touch them, she can even cloak a car. While it's moving. But she does have to be within close proximity. A few meters maybe. From what I can tell, it affects all senses because it is an illusion in the mind. It's altering their perception, not turning on/off the senses themselves. I'm not sure if Cyborgs in Deus Ex give off heat. Jensen's own Smart Vision seems to detect anything it thinks would be tactically useful to him so I can't tell if the other Cyborgs are giving off heat or not. But I know he can bend light and operate completely silent.
#14 Posted by Ferro Vida (34678 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane: And how far away can the people that she is affecting be? Was she IN the car when it was moving? And would it be possible for someone with sufficiently powerful senses to see through the illusion? If she is tricking the mind instead of the senses then wouldn't it follow that the senses could tell the mind otherwise? And would her powers affect Cable's cybernetics? 
 
Our teams start 100 meters away, and I would imagine that you do not automatically begin cloaked. I'd also like to point out that Gypsy is the only hero on a team of villains. Would she be okay with working with them? 
 
Logically, if he is made up of moving parts he is generating some heat. And if there is no upgrade in the game to mask that, then wouldn't it follow that he is producing heat here? And while his body might not make noise, the air around him still would. Someone with sufficient senses or awareness could detect him, so Toph, IF, Cable, and even Angel potentially could (vampires are good at detecting heat).
#15 Posted by Dane (10596 posts) - - Show Bio
@Ferro Vida: She was in the car afaik. I don't think your senses can override your brains interpretation of them. However, I know she outright cannot affect robotic enemies. Whatever she does affect has to have a biological brain. Now the question is, which portion of Cable's brain functions like a computer and which portion functions in a human way. I consider myself pretty knowledgeable on Cable and even I couldn't say for sure. I know at least part of it does function like a computer but I also know at least part of it does have biological human brain-bits. Because his mutant powers stem from his that part of his brain (which he had destroyed by Deadpool, which is why he shouldn't have any powers but apparently it healed (which brains don't really do) and then had powers again, whatever.)
 
So a better question might be: Which version of Cable did you use?
 
The reason I picked Deathstroke for a leader is he has an interesting way of commanding loyalty. Jensen himself is an anti-hero so they aren't all villains. But Deathstroke seems to be able to get anyone to do what he wants. Cassandra Cain,  Rose and Joseph Wilson, Roy Harper, even Dick Grayson have worked for Deathstroke using his methods (though in Grayson's case he never killed for him). He can generally manipulate into doing what he wants, how he wants. So I don't think it is a huge stretch for Slade to get Gypsy to cloak them, especially when you consider how dangerous (and alien) your team is. It wouldn't be that hard to convince someone that Cable is a super dangerous asshole who needs to be put down. 
 
Also, I had no idea you meant Angel from Buffy. I was thinking Warren Worthington sans metallic wings, etc and wondering why on earth you wanted a feathery winged bullet magnet. This makes much more sense.
 
I think it's fair to assume he is producing heat. But it may not to be fair assume Angel is fast enough to detect the body heat of a person (who has far less heat than a normal person) and still have time to react to his speed blitz/explosion.
#16 Posted by Ferro Vida (34678 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane: So she does have to be in contact with the people she is cloaking in some way then. I'm also curious as to the effective range of her powers. Will they work on people that are as far away as my team is? 
 
I wanted a version that had SOME sort of TP so that the team can stay connected, but the version that first came to mind when I thought of using him was post-civil war era Cable. The one who has the tech necessary to affect gravity and scan an area for life forms. That's the version I have read the most about and thus that I am most familiar with. I don't believe he had any TP at the time, though. He was using a technological substitute for them. Sorry for not making that clear before. I wasn't sure how to describe his artificial TP, and I was only planning on using it for communication. 
 
Fair points, I can accept Slade's charisma as a motivator (and Cable as an asshole). 
 
I was worried that would be a problem LOL. That's why I tried to specify I was using IDW Angel. 
 
I didn't mean to say that Angel could react to his speed (though I think he has the potential to). I was just pointing out that people would still be able to track him in spite of his tech cloaking him. 
 
The best speed feat I can think of for Angel is when Faith fired a crossbow bolt at him from behind at point blank range. In the time it took the arrow to travel around five feet, he spun around and caught it when it was an inch from his body. He has also killed a demon with the strength and speed of one hundred men, but take that as you will. I'll see if I can find more scans of him. 
#17 Posted by Ferro Vida (34678 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane
      This guy
#18 Posted by Dane (10596 posts) - - Show Bio

My favorite costume. Honestly? his gravimetric sheath probably breaks the rule with it's force fields. But who cares.
 
Let us assume quite appropriately that he has all of his gear. I have every Cable issue ever printed so if you need something let me know. But I can't ever remember him fighting an illusionist. I know he does have extremely good telepathic resistance even without overt powers. He basically always has some low level of telepathy to protect himself.

#19 Posted by Ferro Vida (34678 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane: Mine too. It was the last Liefeldian. And I'll remove the gravimetric sheaths. I wasn't going to use them, anyway. 
 
I trust you. Has telepathic resistance affected Gypsy before?
#20 Posted by Dane (10596 posts) - - Show Bio
@Ferro Vida: I'm fine with you keeping them, he has only used them to deflect bullets and the rules state that you cannot have force fields with durability greater than Tombstone. Tombstone himself is bulletproof and thus they are legal.
 
To be totally honest I have only seen a few appearances of Gypsy before. I know in JLA she was able to use them against Despero but I haven't seen her use them against anyone else. Telepaths in DCU are far less common and don't really come in different flavors like in Marvel Universe.
#21 Posted by Ferro Vida (34678 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane: Works for me, then. Thanks. I'll try to dig up some Civil War era scans for Cable. 
 
That's fair. I don't really know anything about her either, which is why I was asking so many questions. Really, I just need to know the range of her abilities.
#22 Posted by Dane (10596 posts) - - Show Bio

Basically I know she can create a telepathic illusion to make her team invisible to people's senses. I know they have at least a small radius which they operate in and they affect even high-order telepaths. Not much more I can say without reading Birds of Prey (yuck).

#23 Posted by Ferro Vida (34678 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane: I can't blame you for wanting to avoid that fate ;) 
 
So the big question for me is whether or not she could even affect my team from 100 feet away.
#24 Posted by Dane (10596 posts) - - Show Bio

Hmm, or more the point: It's up to me to prove that she can.
 
*shakes fist at Gail Simone*
 
Let's get this over with you hag.

#25 Posted by Ferro Vida (34678 posts) - - Show Bio

You're a brave soul. I'll pray for you.

#26 Posted by Dane (10596 posts) - - Show Bio

So far I've learned this:
 
At some point Huntress went on a "muffins and ice cream" diet.
 

#27 Posted by Ferro Vida (34678 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane: Nothin' wrong with a few curves.
#28 Posted by Dane (10596 posts) - - Show Bio

'fwip fwip fwip' indeed.

#29 Posted by Mercy_ (92695 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dane said:

So far I've learned this:

At some point Huntress went on a "muffins and ice cream" diet.

..........who the hell drew this? O___o

It's nearly Liefeldian in how terrible the grasp of anatomy is.

Moderator
#30 Posted by Dane (10596 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Dark Huntress: It's pretty lolsy that her thighs are like 8x the width of her head.
#31 Posted by Decoy Elite (30041 posts) - - Show Bio

@The Dark Huntress: Maybe it was Liefeld. He has gotten "better" and the eyes are his "style".

#32 Posted by Mercy_ (92695 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dane: And her torso appears to be nearly as long as her legs...my eyes hurt.

LMFAO @ the title of the image. "Huskytress". I can't breathe.

Moderator
#33 Posted by Mercy_ (92695 posts) - - Show Bio

@Decoy Elite: I don't think it is. Liefeld sucks at hair and her's is probably the best part of that image.

Moderator
#34 Posted by Dane (10596 posts) - - Show Bio

It wasn't Liefeld. It was Adriana Melo.

#35 Posted by Ferro Vida (34678 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Dark Huntress said:

@Dane said:

So far I've learned this:

At some point Huntress went on a "muffins and ice cream" diet.

..........who the hell drew this? O___o

It's nearly Liefeldian in how terrible the grasp of anatomy is.

It's pretty bad, but it's NOT Liefdeld bad.
#36 Posted by Ferro Vida (34678 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane: Anyway, presuming her powers will work on my guys right from the get-go, I'd say that they won't work on Cable. The version I'm using may not have any mutant powers, but he does have highly developed resistance to telepathy from his years of training by the Clan Askani. At least part of his brain is not human, which means that Gypsy's power won't be able to affect at least that part of him, and his cybernetic eye would almost certainly be able to see through her illusions. 
#37 Edited by Dane (10596 posts) - - Show Bio
@Ferro Vida: This seems legitimate. Also, I'm far too large of a Cable fan to ever dispute his unbridled aptitude at anything, ever. Some may call it a disadvantage in this situation but them I say: You're obviously correct but do me a favor and shut up anyway. So, Cable can possibly use his cybernetic eye to see through illusions or else use the more mechanical/digital thought processes to assess the room in such a way.
 
That opens things up significantly.  I'll run through some points of interest.
 
Problem for you: Deathstroke could predict and dodge Terra's earthquakes. He may be able to do the same with Toph.
Problem for me: Toph is still super dangerous.
Problem for me: Cable has a pretty solid force field.
Problem for you: Two of my characters have EMP devices.
Neutral point: Deathstroke and Iron Fist are both incredible fighters and objectively I couldn't call one over the other.
Problem for me: Blink could potentially tele-spastic-win my team.
Problem for you: Bullseye is still a vastly superior marksman and could probably shoot her projectiles out of the air.
Problem for you: I have no idea who on your team could match Daken with a M-Blade shard in his claw. The dude is a wreckshop.
Problem for me: Aside from her illusions, Gypsy is basically null and void. She is a skilled martial artist and I think she could take Blink in a standing fight h2h, but other than that she isn't much use.
Problem for you: I don't think Angel can hang with fighters like Daken or Deathstroke. Even with his enhanced physicals I just don't see the sort of martial arts mastery that a lot of comic book characters have. Willing to be proven wrong though.
Problem for you: Adam Jensen is still by far the fastest character in the scenario. And did I mention he has wrist blades that can cut through steel with ease and can just... you know.. explode?
#38 Posted by Ferro Vida (34678 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane: 1) Toph doesn't make earthquakes. Although she can literally manipulate the building we are currently in in any way she pleases. I'll see if I can find videos of her in action. 
2) If Cable gets hit by those EMPs I'm in trouble. Which is why I'm keeping him back. He's more valuable to me as a leader and support. 
Neutral point: Agreed on them in terms of skill. If we include some of IF's powers, especially since his upgrades, I see him winning, though not easily. 
3) Bullseye can shoot her projectiles out of the air, but she can hit you from pretty much any angle. Or she could pull a Portal 2 and get you caught in an endless fall.  
4) Daken struggled against Punisher ;) But seriously, he was beaten by Wolverine. Danny is better than Wolverine, and I'd say Angel could take him too. Do the M-claws work on all healing factors? Angel's is supernatural in nature, which is why I ask. 
5) I'd say Angel CAN hang with Daken and Deathstroke, though he couldn't beat Deathstroke. It would be a close fight between him and Daken imo, especially since Daken doesn't know how to kill him. I'll try to find scans for him. 
6) IF is fast enough to keep up with Adam Jensen, and he has hands that can shatter steel and... you know... Explode ;)
#39 Posted by Ferro Vida (34678 posts) - - Show Bio
@Ferro Vida:   
  Best Angel speed feat from the show.
#40 Posted by Dane (10596 posts) - - Show Bio

1. Possibly concerning.
2. Agreed.
Neutral: It's a hard sell either way. Even with high-tier damage output, Slade is wearing DC's version of adamantium in a chainmail suit and he has a significant healing factor.
3. She has to tag the wall in order to pull a Portal maneuver. That's why he is shooting the projectiles/her forehead with arrows. He has tagged Spider-Man with ease, can she boast such reflexes? Trick question, since Spider-Man is the limitation for physical speed/reflexes it's not possible.
4. Struggled against Punisher? Did we read the same comic? He eviscerated him and cut him into dog food. He defeated Deadpool and Wolverine at the same time with unerring ease, sir. When did Wolverine beat Daken let alone Daken with M-Blade claws? Angel isn't even close to Daken. M-Blades not only disable healing factors. They can cut through even Adamantium with ease. He can basically wreck anything it comes into contact with.
5. I need scans for that. That is a stretch considering I'd say Daken could beat Deathstroke his bad self. Can Angel survive being decapitated and dismembered? Because at the very least I'll call that being disabled from the fight.
6. Prooooof. I've never seen Iron Fist dodge sniper rifle rounds an inch from his face.

#41 Posted by Ferro Vida (34678 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane:  
Neutral: Danny did this: 
  
3) Fair point. I wasn't actually planning on employing that tactic, but it made me smile. 
4) It took him a whole story arc to take down Frank when it should have taken a page! I thought that whole thing was BS, to be honest. And in his first appearance Daken manhandled Wolverine and Deadpool, yeah. But do you recall the issue in which Daken lost the M-Blade claws? I happened after Wolverine whupped him into unconsciousness, then took the claws out of his arms. Daken CAN be beaten, especially now that he doesn't have pheromones anymore (correct me if I'm wrong on that). 
5) I'll do some looking, but if I can't find anything then I will gladly withdraw the point. Angel has beaten Faith before on two occasions. Slayers are similar to Captain America in terms of stats. I'll try to find a source to back that up, if you want. If they decapitate him then he is dead. But he can survive dismemberment.  
6) He didn't dodge it... 
 
      He caught it ;)
#42 Posted by Dane (10596 posts) - - Show Bio

I am familiar with Daniel Rand's feats, sir. But I shall have to address your points tomorrow, as I am going to bed nao.

#43 Posted by Ferro Vida (34678 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane: I look forward to you ripping me a new one. Good night, sir.
#44 Posted by Sherlock (7258 posts) - - Show Bio

Well im glad to see this heating up nicely...even more Glad that Dane survived birds of prey lol

#45 Posted by Ferro Vida (34678 posts) - - Show Bio
@Sherlock: I'm tempted to give him the victory just for that.
#46 Posted by Sherlock (7258 posts) - - Show Bio
@Ferro Vida: I cant blame you in the slightest there...Dont do that BTW that would be boring lol
#47 Posted by Ferro Vida (34678 posts) - - Show Bio

bump

#48 Posted by crackerjack82 (2606 posts) - - Show Bio

I know it is not my Place, and Dane please forgive me for this, i know you asked for a point blank Sniper rifle shot, but i can offer this up in its stead that is a 9MM gun which should have Muzzle velocity, 375 m/s or (1230 ft/s) Just a dodging and speed feat

Again Sorry dane. but aside from that so far i think dane has it

#49 Posted by Ferro Vida (34678 posts) - - Show Bio
@crackerjack82: Thanks, but I have a couple of bullet timing feats for IF tucked away.
#50 Posted by Charmix (11958 posts) - - Show Bio

Good luck :)