#1 Posted by Sling Shot (3560 posts) - - Show Bio

The yellow fright

vs

Big blue and bright

fight,fight fight!!!

#2 Posted by NightFang (9639 posts) - - Show Bio

The Creeper wins.

#3 Posted by Sling Shot (3560 posts) - - Show Bio

I could direct a major motion picture that would essentially be a fight scene between these two for 90% of the movie. Incorporating all of their  differing characteristics and abilities. Best superhero movie ever! MWahhahahaaaaa!!!


#4 Posted by PowerHerc (78172 posts) - - Show Bio

Beast ftw.
#5 Posted by iLLituracy (13522 posts) - - Show Bio

Creeper should take this with ease.

#6 Posted by OmegaDynasty (9183 posts) - - Show Bio

That laugh....


#7 Posted by White Angel Of Death (691 posts) - - Show Bio

i know who creeper is but is it beast from x-men or we talking about someone else here haha

#8 Posted by not2baad (518 posts) - - Show Bio

beast

#9 Posted by (((Prodigy))) (2444 posts) - - Show Bio

Beast wins. Creeper's laugh is effective, but the effects wear off after a bit of time, and Creeper isn't nearly strong enough to put Beast down for the count during that window of time. Once Beast gets back on his feet, Creeper will get owned.

#10 Posted by iLLituracy (13522 posts) - - Show Bio
@(((Prodigy))) said:
Beast wins. Creeper's laugh is effective, but the effects wear off after a bit of time, and Creeper isn't nearly strong enough to put Beast down for the count during that window of time. Once Beast gets back on his feet, Creeper will get owned.
His strength is superhuman, how is he not strong enough to put Beast down? If anything Beast's enhanced senses would make the effects of Creeper's laugh worse, would it not?

Creeper's pain threshold and durability are more than enough to handle Beast's blows if Beast can even get one off. I'd put Beast above Creeper in terms of agility but not by much.
#11 Posted by starkwood (231 posts) - - Show Bio

Beat is a 10 tonner... I don't think Creeper can handle him.  Beast wins.

#12 Posted by iLLituracy (13522 posts) - - Show Bio
@starkwood said:
Beat is a 10 tonner... I don't think Creeper can handle him.  Beast wins.
We're talking about someone who walks away from massive explosions visibly unharmed. That's how durable he is. 
#13 Posted by (((Prodigy))) (2444 posts) - - Show Bio
@iLLituracy

His strength is superhuman, how is he not strong enough to put Beast down?



Despite his usual stats in Marvel handbooks, Beast has feats that indicate he's somewhere around the 10 ton level. I don't think Creeper has any feats that would put him above 2 tons.
So I guess Creeper technically is strong enough to beat Beast down, but only if he gets like a solid ten minute window to go all out on him.


If anything Beast's enhanced senses would make the effects of Creeper's laugh worse, would it not?



I don't believe Creeper's laugh works that way. The pain is a result of some kind of primal danger instincts activating in the brain. I don't think it has very much to do with the intensity of the laugh or how loudly it's heard.
(quote from Creeper scans that I could post if need be)
"Interesting. Some years ago, a study established an evolutionary basis to the typical reaction to the sound of fingernails on a chalkboard. It seems it matches the acoustic frequency of the "danger cry" of several primate species-- which some atavistic instinct buried in the human brain still responds to. Apparently, the Creeper's laugh evokes a similar, albeit considerably more incapacitating, reaction. From my observations, individual tolerances appear to vary, and severity of effect diminishes rorportionate to length of exposure."
Actually, this makes me wonder if Beast in his current state would be effected at all by the laugh. Creeper's laugh is incapacitating and painful because it matches the frequency of primate species, which the human brain still responds to. Beast, due to his extra mutations, is more feline than anything else. I find it a bit doubtful that his brain is still conditioned to respond to primate danger cries.


Creeper's pain threshold and durability are more than enough to handle Beast's blows if Beast can even get one off.

Creeper's healing factor is very strong, no doubt about that. But characters with powerful healing factors are not immune to knockouts. 


I'd put Beast above Creeper in terms of agility but not by much.



I'd agree to that.


Generally, unless Creeper can manage to beat the crap out of Beast while he's still down due to the laugh. Even if the laugh works on Beast at all (which I somewhat doubt), it will still be a very short window of time for a 2 tonner to beat the crap out of a 10 tonner. Once Beast is capable of fighting again, Creeper doesn't have much of a chance. He's agile enough to keep pace with Beast, and his healing factor will let him tank a heck of a lot of hits, but he just doesn't have the strength needed to hurt Beast back.

 





#14 Posted by iLLituracy (13522 posts) - - Show Bio
@(((Prodigy))): You're equating strength to durability. It doesn't matter how much Beast can lift, that doesn't mean that he can take more shots from someone weaker than him. Beast may be in a ten ton range but that doesn't mean that his body can take shots from someone who can lift ten tons, nor does it mean that his body can even take shots from someone who's in a 2-ton range, though, I won't say that because he does in fact have enhanced durability, but I still don't think that's enough to take blows from someone as strong as Creeper. With that said...

Despite his usual stats in Marvel handbooks, Beast has feats that indicate he's somewhere around the 10 ton level. I don't think Creeper has any feats that would put him above 2 tons.
So I guess Creeper technically is strong enough to beat Beast down, but only if he gets like a solid ten minute window to go all out on him.

Like I said, strength=/=durability.

I don't believe Creeper's laugh works that way. The pain is a result of some kind of primal danger instincts activating in the brain. I don't think it has very much to do with the intensity of the laugh or how loudly it's heard. (quote from Creeper scans that I could post if need be)
"Interesting. Some years ago, a study established an evolutionary basis to the typical reaction to the sound of fingernails on a chalkboard. It seems it matches the acoustic frequency of the "danger cry" of several primate species-- which some atavistic instinct buried in the human brain still responds to. Apparently, the Creeper's laugh evokes a similar, albeit considerably more incapacitating, reaction. From my observations, individual tolerances appear to vary, and severity of effect diminishes rorportionate to length of exposure."
Actually, this makes me wonder if Beast in his current state would be effected at all by the laugh. Creeper's laugh is incapacitating and painful because it matches the frequency of primate species, which the human brain still responds to. Beast, due to his extra mutations, is more feline than anything else. I find it a bit doubtful that his brain is still conditioned to respond to primate danger cries.

Beast has been shown to be cat-like in physical nature as well as mind, but I don't think that necessarily means that Beast's brain was fully mutated from a primate's. Aside from when Cassandra Nova programmed him to act like a cat and his ability to take cat naps I'm not recalling any sort of further indication that his mind is that of a feline's completely. Beast may be cat-like but he's still human, IMO, and he SHOULD still have primate atavistic tendencies, no matter how your mind mutates to my knowledge you can't unlearn atavistic instinct. I don't see why it wouldn't work on him. 

The only person who I can think of that is immune to his laugh was Proteus because he burned out the basil ganglia in his head. 

Creeper's healing factor is very strong, no doubt about that. But characters with powerful healing factors are not immune to knockouts. 

Not what I was suggesting nor do I believe it's tied directly to his regenerative abilities. Apart from his regenerative abilities he's been shown to have a high pain threshold which means he's less susceptible to be knocked out due to pain. 
#15 Posted by (((Prodigy))) (2444 posts) - - Show Bio
@iLLituracy
 

You're equating strength to durability. It doesn't matter how much Beast can lift, that doesn't mean that he can take more shots from someone weaker than him. Beast may be in a ten ton range but that doesn't mean that his body can take shots from someone who can lift ten tons, nor does it mean that his body can even take shots from someone who's in a 2-ton range, though, I won't say that because he does in fact have enhanced durability, but I still don't think that's enough to take blows from someone as strong as Creeper. With that said...



Just about every character who has superhuman strength also has a level of durability that seems to be roughly proportionate to their strength level. In almost every case, the two powers to hand-in-hand. Right off hand, I can recall Hank tanking blows from Spider-Man, Kraven, Wolverine, Ord, Danger, and even glancing hits from WWHulk without sustaining any noticable injury. I believe that indicates that his level of durability is sufficient to withstand blows from a 2 tonner.


Beast has been shown to be cat-like in physical nature as well as mind, but I don't think that necessarily means that Beast's brain was fully mutated from a primate's. Aside from when Cassandra Nova programmed him to act like a cat and his ability to take cat naps I'm not recalling any sort of further indication that his mind is that of a feline's completely. Beast may be cat-like but he's still human, IMO, and he SHOULD still have primate atavistic tendencies, no matter how your mind mutates to my knowledge you can't unlearn atavistic instinct. I don't see why it wouldn't work on him. 



Ok. It wasn't a major point anyway. Just something I started to think of as I was typing.
The important part is the part about the effect diminishing proportionately to length of exposure. In the scans that I was quoting, the gang of thugs that Creeper was fighting were getting back in fighting condition after only a few panels. Of course, it's impossible to measure exactly how long they were incapacitated, but it seems that Creeper's laugh doesn't give him a very large window of opportunity to attack.


Not what I was suggesting nor do I believe it's tied directly to his regenerative abilities. Apart from his regenerative abilities he's been shown to have a high pain threshold which means he's less susceptible to be knocked out due to pain. 



I don't think Beast is the type who would try to knock out an enemy due to pain anyway. Due to his morals and thorough knowledge of human physiology, I think he is much more likely to go for a knockout via weak spots and pressure points (ex. hits to the back of the head, punch to the jaw, ect). 

 

 
#16 Posted by TDK_1997 (13674 posts) - - Show Bio

Creeper

#17 Posted by iLLituracy (13522 posts) - - Show Bio
Sorry for the late response, I've grown too old to debate, it seems. XD

Just about every character who has superhuman strength also has a level of durability that seems to be roughly proportionate to their strength level. In almost every case, the two powers to hand-in-hand. Right off hand, I can recall Hank tanking blows from Spider-Man, Kraven, Wolverine, Ord, Danger, and even glancing hits from WWHulk without sustaining any noticable injury. I believe that indicates that his level of durability is sufficient to withstand blows from a 2 tonner.    

It's safe to assume that the two go hand in hand, but at the same time sometimes they don't. Beast's durability is stated to be at a 4 which is classified as regenerative, Marvel's handbooks have always been tricky when it comes to measuring durability because a 3 is enhanced which is the classification that people who usually have denser skin and more resistance to injury are at, but to my understanding when you're a 4 you're not necessarily eligible to claim Beast's tissue is denser than normal and his regenerative healing factor has been known to only be twice as fast as peak-human [if I recall correctly].

As far as who he's taken shots from that's impressive and all but at the same time Spider-Man [at least in the scenario I'm recalling] didn't hit Beast with everything he had and I know for sure that Hulk wasn't and when it comes down to it I can think of a bunch of examples where people with low level of durability or peak human durability get thrashed by people way out of their league and have gotten back up such as Daredevil, who has normal level durability and his encounters with Mr. Hyde, who is in the 50 ton range.

You mentioned Kraven, who can press two tons, which is what you're assuming Creeper is at [though I'm not sure someone who can lift two tons can pull a street lamp out of the ground and fight off a robot with it] and Kraven managed to not only harm Beast with his strikes but managed to handicap him with a nerve strike in their encounter if memory serves so it's not out of the question to have someone who's as strong as Creeper harm Beast. My point is is that his claws can tear through Beast's tissue, he doesn't have to try and knock Beast out when he can simply bleed him out.

Ok. It wasn't a major point anyway. Just something I started to think of as I was typing.
The important part is the part about the effect diminishing proportionately to length of exposure. In the scans that I was quoting, the gang of thugs that Creeper was fighting were getting back in fighting condition after only a few panels. Of course, it's impossible to measure exactly how long they were incapacitated, but it seems that Creeper's laugh doesn't give him a very large window of opportunity to attack.

In those scans it says that it's dependent on who's exposed to, as well. Even toward the end there was still guys [guards hired by Proteus] clutching their heads in pain. Due to his laughter they weren't able to touch him. I don't really see that as fighting condition.

Also, there's examples of Creeper's laugh that last until he's disposed of all of his enemies. For example in Creeper volume 3 #1, shortly after becoming the Creeper he dispatches a whole group of mobsters before they can even get a shot off.

 

I don't think Beast is the type who would try to knock out an enemy due to pain anyway. Due to his morals and thorough knowledge of human physiology, I think he is much more likely to go for a knockout via weak spots and pressure points (ex. hits to the back of the head, punch to the jaw, ect). 

Maybe, but as much as Beast knows about human physiology I don't think that equates to him knowing how to strike certain points such as someone like Daredevil would. He's trained, but I don't think he's at that level. While I think he could knock out an opponent with well placed hits it would be primarily due to his strength, and for all the punishment that he can deal out Creeper can take it and more, IMO. In his third volume he went toe to toe with a monster known as Gavin [which is the only time I remotely remember Creeper being KOed], Gavin had enough strength to punch through thick prison walls until Gavin managed to brutally put him down again [mind you, this was supposed to be early Creeper]. 
#18 Posted by Dex_Starr (4772 posts) - - Show Bio
@iLLituracy: Nice scans, I think I'll read Creepers series. 
#19 Posted by andre54 (337 posts) - - Show Bio

beast may be stronger but creeper is the more versatile one here. the laugh will be a huge factor.

#20 Posted by (((Prodigy))) (2444 posts) - - Show Bio
@iLLituracy

It's safe to assume that the two go hand in hand, but at the same time sometimes they don't. Beast's durability is stated to be at a 4 which is classified as regenerative, Marvel's handbooks have always been tricky when it comes to measuring durability because a 3 is enhanced which is the classification that people who usually have denser skin and more resistance to injury are at, but to my understanding when you're a 4 you're not necessarily eligible to claim Beast's tissue is denser than normal and his regenerative healing factor has been known to only be twice as fast as peak-human [if I recall correctly].



TBH, I never trust what handbooks say about Beast's power levels. Almost all of them still say that he's a 2-3 tonner, even though he has feats that put him above that level. 


As far as who he's taken shots from that's impressive and all but at the same time Spider-Man [at least in the scenario I'm recalling] didn't hit Beast with everything he had and I know for sure that Hulk wasn't and when it comes down to it I can think of a bunch of examples where people with low level of durability or peak human durability get thrashed by people way out of their league and have gotten back up such as Daredevil, who has normal level durability and his encounters with Mr. Hyde, who is in the 50 ton range.



Daredevil only managed to hurt Mr Hyde because of his nerve strikes. The effectiveness of nerve strikes isn't dependant on how hard you hit, so they kinda bypass any superhuman durability that would protect against normal attacks. If Daredevil tried to beat Mr Hyde just by punching him full force, he would have broken his fists.


You mentioned Kraven, who can press two tons, which is what you're assuming Creeper is at [though I'm not sure someone who can lift two tons can pull a street lamp out of the ground and fight off a robot with it] and Kraven managed to not only harm Beast with his strikes but managed to handicap him with a nerve strike in their encounter if memory serves so it's not out of the question to have someone who's as strong as Creeper harm Beast. My point is is that his claws can tear through Beast's tissue, he doesn't have to try and knock Beast out when he can simply bleed him out.



Creeper has claws?
I don't recall ever seeing any evidence of them in any of his scans.


In those scans it says that it's dependent on who's exposed to, as well. Even toward the end there was still guys [guards hired by Proteus] clutching their heads in pain. Due to his laughter they weren't able to touch him. I don't really see that as fighting condition.



Just because they weren't able to touch him doesn't mean the effects of the laugh weren't already wearing off. Creeper has superhuman strength, agility, and very decent fighting skill. They were basic goons with minimal weaponry. Creeper would have been beating the s**t out of them even without his laugh. At least one of them was able to regain his composure enough to almost hit Creeper with a taser. If Beast can get that same level of composure in the same amount of time, I beleive it will be sufficient to let him start blocking/dodging hits.


Also, there's examples of Creeper's laugh that last until he's disposed of all of his enemies. For example in Creeper volume 3 #1, shortly after becoming the Creeper he dispatches a whole group of mobsters before they can even get a shot off.



In those scans, he was laughing for all of five panels. Time-wise, it honestly doesn't look any longer than a couple of seconds. 


Maybe, but as much as Beast knows about human physiology I don't think that equates to him knowing how to strike certain points such as someone like Daredevil would. He's trained, but I don't think he's at that level. While I think he could knock out an opponent with well placed hits it would be primarily due to his strength, and for all the punishment that he can deal out Creeper can take it and more, IMO. In his third volume he went toe to toe with a monster known as Gavin [which is the only time I remotely remember Creeper being KOed], Gavin had enough strength to punch through thick prison walls until Gavin managed to brutally put him down again [mind you, this was supposed to be early Creeper]. 



Of course he doesn't have the same kind of nerve strike skills that Daredevil has. "There are nerves all over the human body. Touch them just right and it's just a bad or worse than being burned." Beast doesn't have that kind of training. However, there is a difference between knowing nerve strikes and knowing all the basic weak spots on the human body. It's common knowledge even to us that a person can be knocked unconcious with the right kind of blow to the back of the head, or a sufficiently powerful punch to the jaw. Beast should already know all that and more. 

 



 


#21 Posted by iLLituracy (13522 posts) - - Show Bio

   

TBH, I never trust what handbooks say about Beast's power levels. Almost all of them still say that he's a 2-3 tonner, even though he has feats that put him above that level.     

They have him at a 10 ton level last I saw.


Daredevil only managed to hurt Mr Hyde because of his nerve strikes. The effectiveness of nerve strikes isn't dependant on how hard you hit, so they kinda bypass any superhuman durability that would protect against normal attacks. If Daredevil tried to beat Mr Hyde just by punching him full force, he would have broken his fists.

My point was that Daredevil has taken blows from Hyde, not the other way around. Daredevil doesn't have any sort of real durability but has taken blows from people way out of his league when it comes to strength. While Beast has taken blows from people much stronger than him [or Creeper in this instance] that doesn't mean Creeper can't harm him. 

Creeper has claws?
I don't recall ever seeing any evidence of them in any of his scans.

Creeper has control over most of his physiology, on numerous occasions he's made his fingers sharp enough to claw through people. Even the red mane that he grows around his neck has proven prehensile on one or two occasions. In most depictions his fingernails are shown to be rather sharp. It's what he uses to scale walls and he's been known to use them in battle, for example, when he claws out Man-Bat's back during their fight.

Just because they weren't able to touch him doesn't mean the effects of the laugh weren't already wearing off. Creeper has superhuman strength, agility, and very decent fighting skill. They were basic goons with minimal weaponry. Creeper would have been beating the s**t out of them even without his laugh. At least one of them was able to regain his composure enough to almost hit Creeper with a taser. If Beast can get that same level of composure in the same amount of time, I beleive it will be sufficient to let him start blocking/dodging hits.    

But that was only one example of Creeper's laugh, one that was successful until the end of the fight. And it's unfair to point out that someone almost hit Creeper with a taser because we can't tell how aware Creeper was when it comes down to it. I mean, you can't really count it against Batman for every thug that manages to nearly shoot him while he's not even looking at them. The fact that he managed to not only dodge the taser but make it so the guy who fired the shot hit another man in the face suggests that he was very much aware of the man's presence.

Almost doesn't count, especially in a situation where he set the guy up.

And like I said, in most depictions of his laugh it lasts long enough. I don't see how it would differ from his fight with Beast. All he needs is the upper-hand for a little while, IMO.

In those scans, he was laughing for all of five panels. Time-wise, it honestly doesn't look any longer than a couple of seconds.

Afterward he transforms back into Jack Ryder and has a dialog with himself before he notices one of the thugs is still conscious and fires off a round at him. He turns back into the Creeper and uses the laugh on the man again, I think that would have been longer than a few seconds.

   

Of course he doesn't have the same kind of nerve strike skills that Daredevil has. "There are nerves all over the human body. Touch them just right and it's just a bad or worse than being burned." Beast doesn't have that kind of training. However, there is a difference between knowing nerve strikes and knowing all the basic weak spots on the human body. It's common knowledge even to us that a person can be knocked unconcious with the right kind of blow to the back of the head, or a sufficiently powerful punch to the jaw. Beast should already know all that and more. 

Okay. I don't think they'd be as effective on someone with Creeper's superhuman durability [because he has one of those, too], but I won't doubt that he can be knocked out by those means.
   
#22 Posted by (((Prodigy))) (2444 posts) - - Show Bio

They have him at a 10 ton level last I saw.



Really? I thought they were still consistantly listing him as 2 or 3 tons.


My point was that Daredevil has taken blows from Hyde, not the other way around. Daredevil doesn't have any sort of real durability but has taken blows from people way out of his league when it comes to strength. While Beast has taken blows from people much stronger than him [or Creeper in this instance] that doesn't mean Creeper can't harm him. 



Honestly, I don't see how it's anything but PIS that Daredevil could take hits from a 50 tonner without being put straight down. What's the point of having superhuman strength if people with human-level durability can still take your punches? Unless they were just glancing blows, or Daredevil was just rolling with all the hits, then that would have to be PIS.


Creeper has control over most of his physiology, on numerous occasions he's made his fingers sharp enough to claw through people. Even the red mane that he grows around his neck has proven prehensile on one or two occasions. In most depictions his fingernails are shown to be rather sharp. It's what he uses to scale walls and he's been known to use them in battle, for example, when he claws out Man-Bat's back during their fight.



Hmm. Good to know. I didn't know Creeper had that ability.
Our debate about Beast's durability level notwithstanding, I think at the very least his fur would give him a degree of protection against Creeper's claws. It's like lions and their manes. The thicker the hair is, the tougher they are to bite/slash in that area. Beast appears to have a decently thick mat of fur all over.


But that was only one example of Creeper's laugh, one that was successful until the end of the fight. And it's unfair to point out that someone almost hit Creeper with a taser because we can't tell how aware Creeper was when it comes down to it. I mean, you can't really count it against Batman for every thug that manages to nearly shoot him while he's not even looking at them. The fact that he managed to not only dodge the taser but make it so the guy who fired the shot hit another man in the face suggests that he was very much aware of the man's presence.



Good point. 
We can at least determine that that guy was coherent enough to be able to point and shoot a projectile weapon after only about a page, so I'm still not convinced that the window of time during which the laugh is fully effective is all that great.
As for the idea that it was successful until the end of the fight, it's tough to tell near the end of the fight how much of Creeper's superiority was coming from the laugh, and how much of it was just his fighting skill. Like I said before, almost any decent street-leveler would be capable of beating the living crap out of goons like that, even without an incapacitating laugh to help. We can't just say that 'Creeper was still totally owning them at the end of the fight, so that means they were still in terrible pain from his laugh.'


And like I said, in most depictions of his laugh it lasts long enough. I don't see how it would differ from his fight with Beast. All he needs is the upper-hand for a little while, IMO.



 Slight adjustment: It lasts long enough for Creeper do beat down a small group of guys who have no superhuman abilities, no skills beyond the common street thug MAX, and no weapons more dangerous than simple handguns at best.
Beast is superior to those guys in pretty much every concievable way. He is VASTLY physically superior, has a healing factor, and is a far more experienced fighter. Having enough time to beat them down isn't the same as having enough time to beat him down.


Afterward he transforms back into Jack Ryder and has a dialog with himself before he notices one of the thugs is still conscious and fires off a round at him. He turns back into the Creeper and uses the laugh on the man again, I think that would have been longer than a few seconds.



Ok, so altogether maybe 30 seconds max. And the guy was still able to run away at the end, so the laugh didn't seem to be quite as effective as before.
Honestly, I feel like we're starting to split hairs on this particular point. I'm just trying to say that this particular fight really doesn't last long at all, so it can't really be used as proof that Creeper's laugh is fully effective for a long time.


Okay. I don't think they'd be as effective on someone with Creeper's superhuman durability [because he has one of those, too], but I won't doubt that he can be knocked out by those means.



I think they'd still be very effective. Blows like that work perfectly fine for people with equal strength levels (human vs human, ect). Beast is a ten tonner, and Creeper's durability isn't that awesome (he said "That hurt" when he was hit with a billy club in one of his fights.) 

 







 

 

 
#23 Posted by iLLituracy (13522 posts) - - Show Bio

Really? I thought they were still consistantly listing him as 2 or 3 tons.  

 

Honestly, I don't see how it's anything but PIS that Daredevil could take hits from a 50 tonner without being put straight down. What's the point of having superhuman strength if people with human-level durability can still take your punches? Unless they were just glancing blows, or Daredevil was just rolling with all the hits, then that would have to be PIS.

I'd say the same for Beast, especially when it comes to his fight with Hulk during WWH: X-Men. He managed to walk away from a number of blows straight on and Beast kept going despite the fact that Hulk defeated much more durable opponents with seeming ease. Beast is durable, but I don't think he's durable enough to be tanking blows from someone with 100+ ton strength unless said person wasn't really trying, which is arguable. 

Good point.  We can at least determine that that guy was coherent enough to be able to point and shoot a projectile weapon after only about a page, so I'm still not convinced that the window of time during which the laugh is fully effective is all that great.
As for the idea that it was successful until the end of the fight, it's tough to tell near the end of the fight how much of Creeper's superiority was coming from the laugh, and how much of it was just his fighting skill. Like I said before, almost any decent street-leveler would be capable of beating the living crap out of goons like that, even without an incapacitating laugh to help. We can't just say that 'Creeper was still totally owning them at the end of the fight, so that means they were still in terrible pain from his laugh.'

I have no doubt that he could have done it without the laugh, but the laugh was still effective enough to continuously be effective throughout the fight. Were some of the men able to try and fend off the Creeper? Yes. Did they fail horribly in doing so? Yes. How much of that should be attributed to the laugh? I would say that it definitely made things easier. I'll wrap up this in response to your next argument.

 Slight adjustment: It lasts long enough for Creeper do beat down a small group of guys who have no superhuman abilities, no skills beyond the common street thug MAX, and no weapons more dangerous than simple handguns at best. Beast is superior to those guys in pretty much every concievable way. He is VASTLY physically superior, has a healing factor, and is a far more experienced fighter. Having enough time to beat them down isn't the same as having enough time to beat him down.

His vast physical superiority isn't going to factor into his susceptibility to his laugh, neither is his healing factor which isn't really a healing factor but his regenerative abilities that allow him to heal faster than a human but nowhere near as fast as someone like your Wolverines or your Deadpools and Sabretooths. What will factor in is his hearing, which is sharper than that group of guys, and while the laugh targets a pitch that works on specific atavistic portions of the brain, it does so by reaching a paralytic pitch.

Like I said earlier, you mentioned Kraven who maxes at 2 tons according to Marvel. Creeper, who should be above 2 tons, should be able to slip in a number of hits before Beast can recover from the initial laughter and by the time he slips those in Beast would already be hurting and most likely dazed and clawed up from that first wave. Not to sell Beast short, I think he has the instinctual ability to be able to get a decent amount of licks on Creeper, but the laugh, IMO, would keep him from getting a decent lock on him for at least a good portion of the fight which would allow the Creeper to get his damage done. 

Ok, so altogether maybe 30 seconds max. And the guy was still able to run away at the end, so the laugh didn't seem to be quite as effective as before. Honestly, I feel like we're starting to split hairs on this particular point. I'm just trying to say that this particular fight really doesn't last long at all, so it can't really be used as proof that Creeper's laugh is fully effective for a long time.

Maybe. And I don't think he was running away during the laugh, I don't think the laugh came into play until after Creeper landed on him. My point is that it could last longer than the five seconds that you suggested earlier and that it is still effective after initial exposure to it.

I think they'd still be very effective. Blows like that work perfectly fine for people with equal strength levels (human vs human, ect). Beast is a ten tonner, and Creeper's durability isn't that awesome (he said "That hurt" when he was hit with a billy club in one of his fights.) 

You misinterpreted that page. Creeper was never struck by the guard's billy club. He kicked the guard in the face and the billy club flew into his hand. Why would he be hurt by something such as a strike from a billy club when in the very next issue [issue #2] he bashes his skull in on a building purposely while smiling? And in issue 3 he goes on to be cut up by saws and laughs through it? I think it's in issue #5 where he encounters a gunman and laughs through a volley of gunshots. In volume 3 issue 2 he takes an axe to the chest without any visible pain. All of that is his threshold for pain which is ridiculously high in addition to his regenerative abilities that allows him to regenerate from scraps of flesh and makes most injuries disappear within seconds.

As for his actual durability, like I mentioned earlier in this thread he drove a space-plane into a battlefield and emerged from said explosion without a scratch. I think that explosion would trump Beast's strength, but that's just my opinion. 
#24 Posted by (((Prodigy))) (2444 posts) - - Show Bio



Huh. Cool. They're finally catching up.


I'd say the same for Beast, especially when it comes to his fight with Hulk during WWH: X-Men. He managed to walk away from a number of blows straight on and Beast kept going despite the fact that Hulk defeated much more durable opponents with seeming ease. Beast is durable, but I don't think he's durable enough to be tanking blows from someone with 100+ ton strength unless said person wasn't really trying, which is arguable. 



Actually, I think that last part is very accurate. WWHulk was stronger than normal, but he was also much more in control of his strength. He beat the crap out of a whole lot of people with varying power levels, but nobody died during that arc. Heck, he even b**chslapped Trauma (in human form) hard enough to knock him across the street and put him in the hospital, but not quite so hard that Trauma wouldn't survive. 


His vast physical superiority isn't going to factor into his susceptibility to his laugh, neither is his healing factor which isn't really a healing factor but his regenerative abilities that allow him to heal faster than a human but nowhere near as fast as someone like your Wolverines or your Deadpools and Sabretooths. What will factor in is his hearing, which is sharper than that group of guys, and while the laugh targets a pitch that works on specific atavistic portions of the brain, it does so by reaching a paralytic pitch.



His physical superiority isn't going to change his susceptibility to the laugh, but it will very likely effect the number of hits he takes. Superhuman speed and agility can go a long way for blocking and dodging attacks, even while in severe pain. Creeper may be roughly Beast's equal in agility, but I don't think he has any superhuman speed. I can see this factoring in to let Beast block or avoid at least some of the hits that Creeper tries to land while the laugh is still fully effective. 


Like I said earlier, you mentioned Kraven who maxes at 2 tons according to Marvel. Creeper, who should be above 2 tons, should be able to slip in a number of hits before Beast can recover from the initial laughter and by the time he slips those in Beast would already be hurting and most likely dazed and clawed up from that first wave. Not to sell Beast short, I think he has the instinctual ability to be able to get a decent amount of licks on Creeper, but the laugh, IMO, would keep him from getting a decent lock on him for at least a good portion of the fight which would allow the Creeper to get his damage done. 



Mentioning Kraven was actually a bad example. I was just trying to think of superhumanly strong people who have hit Beast before (TBH, there aren't really a whole lot of Beast scans going around). Kraven just hit Beast with a nerve strike rather than a regular punch, and that fight happened back before any of Beast's extra mutations when he was a 2 tonner himself.
I can see what you're saying there, but I still just can't see Creeper having the physical stats necessary to put Beast down for the count once he gets his bearings again. Beast is much stronger, much faster, possibly more agile, ect. Perhaps I'm just selling Creeper's strenth short, but the physical differences between them just seem too great to me.


You misinterpreted that page. Creeper was never struck by the guard's billy club. He kicked the guard in the face and the billy club flew into his hand. Why would he be hurt by something such as a strike from a billy club when in the very next issue [issue #2] he bashes his skull in on a building purposely while smiling?



I get what you're saying there, but I'm confused now. Why then did Creeper say "That hurt"?

 

And in issue 3 he goes on to be cut up by saws and laughs through it? I think it's in issue #5 where he encounters a gunman and laughs through a volley of gunshots. In volume 3 issue 2 he takes an axe to the chest without any visible pain. All of that is his threshold for pain which is ridiculously high in addition to his regenerative abilities that allows him to regenerate from scraps of flesh and makes most injuries disappear within seconds.

As for his actual durability, like I mentioned earlier in this thread he drove a space-plane into a battlefield and emerged from said explosion without a scratch. I think that explosion would trump Beast's strength, but that's just my opinion. 



I would think that his ability to survive the plane crash is due to his healing factor, rather than superhuman durability. The pain-threshold feats you mentioned (axe in the chest, bullet wounds, saws) don't make it sound like his flesh is any more durable than a regular man. His healing factor just knits him back together extremely quickly. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Deadpool or bone-claw-Wolverine or any other mega-healing-factor-but-no-durability guy emerge from the same explosion just fine. 
 

 






 
#25 Posted by Jezer (2845 posts) - - Show Bio

You guys should throw the Jeeper's Creeper into this battle, as well. ('-' )
#26 Posted by Joygirl (15330 posts) - - Show Bio

After reading this entire (very interesting and well-done, I might add) debate, I'm throwing my vote in for Yellow-Skinned Wacky Man. The subject of the claws does it for me... I don't think Beast's fur, of all things, can deflect two-ton claw strikes, especially while he's reeling from the initial laughter. After that, even if the laugh doesn't last any longer than fifteen seconds, he'll be bleeding and hurt, and Creeper won't be. I also think Ryder's healing factor should be more than sufficient to tank whatever Beast can throw at him.

#27 Posted by theDCkid (874 posts) - - Show Bio

It would definitely be a good fight but the creeper wins. Beast doesn't really have a defense for creeper's cackle.