Count Dooku Vs. Exar Kun

  • 85 results
  • 1
  • 2
Avatar image for shroudofsorrow
shroudofsorrow

13512

Forum Posts

4048

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 17

User Lists: 70

#1  Edited By shroudofsorrow

Done for the sole purpose of further determining just how uber a lightsaber duelist Dooku is. Setting is Nar Shadda, strictly lighsaber duel, with the Force only being allowed for enhancing of physical strength and the like. No "conventional" force powers allowed.

Who wins?

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Versus

Avatar image for jameskm716
JamesKM716

2018

Forum Posts

1

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 4

#2  Edited By JamesKM716

Interesting battle. I give it p Dooku though, at least 8/10 if not more

Avatar image for seanakamisery
SeanAKAMisery

1957

Forum Posts

85

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 2

#3  Edited By SeanAKAMisery

Exar Kun easily wins this He beat his master Vodo-Siosk Baas in a saber duel quite easily. Vodo-Siosk Baas is arguably a better Jedi master then Yoda. Dooku could not even best Yoda in a saber duel, so there is your answer.

Avatar image for shootingnova
ShootingNova

25785

Forum Posts

313

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 2

#4  Edited By ShootingNova

@SeanAKAMisery said:

Vodo-Siosk Baas is arguably a better Jedi master then Yoda.

No, he is not. Yoda is the most powerful Jedi up to his time:

Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chamber, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two engaged in a spectacular duel—a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force’s light and dark sides.

--Taken from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...

-- Taken from Revenge of the Sith

Avatar image for jodokon
Jodokon

128

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#5  Edited By Jodokon

I give it to the inventor of the Double Bladed Lightsaber.

Avatar image for shroudofsorrow
shroudofsorrow

13512

Forum Posts

4048

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 17

User Lists: 70

#6  Edited By shroudofsorrow

Bump

Avatar image for seanakamisery
SeanAKAMisery

1957

Forum Posts

85

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 2

#7  Edited By SeanAKAMisery
@ShootingNova: In their time Yoda was the most powerful Jedi, but it never states he is the most powerful Jedi ever. Besides Exar was one of the 5 great dark lords, and Dooku was barley a sith lord.
Avatar image for shroudofsorrow
shroudofsorrow

13512

Forum Posts

4048

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 17

User Lists: 70

#8  Edited By shroudofsorrow

@SeanAKAMisery: Yoda is one of the most powerful Jedi period and I would say he's the 2nd best behind post New Republic Era Luke.

Dooku is very much a full-fledged Sith Lord.

Avatar image for jameskm716
JamesKM716

2018

Forum Posts

1

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 4

#9  Edited By JamesKM716

Save for Luke Skywalker himself, Yoda is the greatest Jedi ever. Dooku defeated Mace, and was second to Yoda. Dooku wins. 8/10

Avatar image for shootingnova
ShootingNova

25785

Forum Posts

313

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 2

#10  Edited By ShootingNova

@SeanAKAMisery said:

@ShootingNova: In their time Yoda was the most powerful Jedi, but it never states he is the most powerful Jedi ever.

Did you even read? Yoda was the most powerful Jedi up to his time. Including all the beings before.

that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...

-- Taken from Revenge of the Sith

It says "ever known". So yes, Yoda is the most powerful Jedi up to his time.

Besides Exar was one of the 5 great dark lords, and Dooku was barley a sith lord.

Really it's just your opinion and it doesn't make Exar Kun stomp Dooku. Dooku was a Dark Lord as well.

Avatar image for thegirugamesh
TheGirugamesh

497

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#11  Edited By TheGirugamesh

I see Dooku winning this if no conventional force powers are allowed here.

Avatar image for steelhound56
steelhound56

1076

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#12  Edited By steelhound56

Dooku is the superior duelist...

Exar Kun defeating Siosk Bass in a duel isn't what I would call definitively impressive, unless I'm missing out on something Siosk Baas did during the Exar Kun war.

Kun being the "inventor" of the double bladed lightsaber is somewhat debatable, considering the events of The Old Republic trailers. Remember, Malgus' Sith Master Vindican wielded a double bladed lightsaber, and the Sith Empire had been gone in self imposed exile on Dromund Kaas for around 1,000 years when Korriban fell.

If Exar Kun is the true inventor of the double bladed lightsaber, how did Vindican have knowledge of how to construct a double bladed lightsaber if the Sith Empire had little to no knowledge of such a weapon even existing?

Exar Kun rose to power around 700 years after the Vitate's Empire had been driven into the Unknown Regions beyond the fringes of known galactic space. Evidence of contact with the Sith Empire only arose when Revan and Malak came back from the Unknown Regions around 30 years later. I guess it is plausible that the Sith Empire learned of the weapon's existence when they first infiltrated the Republic a few hundred years before they attacked, but I'm not buying it.

Dooku wins this at least 8/10 times. He was one of the Order's best lightsaber combatants in a time where duelists such as Yoda, Mace Windu and Qui Gon Jinn were there to compete with him. I would say the overall order goes something like this (prior to Dooku leaving the Order)

1. Yoda

2. Dooku

3, Mace Windu (although it is debateable that Dooku and Mace could be interchangable for that 2nd spot)

4. Qui Gon Jinn (in his prime)

Avatar image for shroudofsorrow
shroudofsorrow

13512

Forum Posts

4048

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 17

User Lists: 70

#13  Edited By shroudofsorrow

@steelhound56: I think the explanation of Sith agents learning of the weapon's existence is feasible. Also, more than one person can come up with the same idea.

Feats for Qui-Gon in his prime? I know he was considered one of the best lightsaber duelists but I need more than lip-service. What I saw of him in TPM showed a lightsaber duelist who was decent, but not even close to top tier.

I'd rank the best lightsaber duelists of the Prequel-Era Jedi Order as such.

1. Yoda

2-3. Dooku and Mace

4-5. Obi-Wan and Anakin Skywalker at their best

6. Kit Fisto

Avatar image for shootingnova
ShootingNova

25785

Forum Posts

313

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 2

#14  Edited By ShootingNova

@steelhound56 said:

1. Yoda

2. Dooku

3, Mace Windu (although it is debateable that Dooku and Mace could be interchangable for that 2nd spot)

4. Qui Gon Jinn (in his prime)

Is this the Order of the PT era? Because if not, where is Luke Skywalker, Satele Shan, the JK, and possibly the JC.

@shroudofsorrow said:

Feats for Qui-Gon in his prime?

Stalemating Mace Windu, but Windu was not in his prime at that stage.

Avatar image for shroudofsorrow
shroudofsorrow

13512

Forum Posts

4048

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 17

User Lists: 70

#15  Edited By shroudofsorrow

@ShootingNova said:

Is this the Order of the PT era? Because if not, where is Luke Skywalker, Satele Shan, the JK, and possibly the JC.

I think its just Prequel-Era Jedi.

And wait: the Hero of Tython and Jedi Consular aren't completely featless?

@ShootingNova said:

Stalemating Mace Windu, but Windu was not in his prime at that stage.

Hmmm....eh, I'll put him in 7th place then.

Avatar image for steelhound56
steelhound56

1076

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#16  Edited By steelhound56

@ShootingNova: yeah, thats the list for just in that era...

I honestly couldnt tell you if I would put Satele up there with Luke and company though. But I haven't played TOR yet so I'll just stay out of that argument.

Avatar image for shootingnova
ShootingNova

25785

Forum Posts

313

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 2

#17  Edited By ShootingNova

@steelhound56 said:

@ShootingNova: yeah, thats the list for just in that era...

I honestly couldnt tell you if I would put Satele up there with Luke and company though. But I haven't played TOR yet so I'll just stay out of that argument.

LOL......

Yes, Satele deserves to be in the top.

@shroudofsorrow said:

And wait: the Hero of Tython and Jedi Consular aren't completely featless?

Cutscenes count. So the Hero of Tython has defeated two Dark Jedi (one of which had an actual lightsaber) with a training saber. He/she defeated Vitiate (or the Voice of the Emperor, but that's just the Emperor's essence in another body, but same powers and abilities etc.), Darth Angral, Valis, and so on. So all of that counts.

Same with the Barsen'thor. Whoever he/she defeated counts, though most (if not all) are (or nearly are) featless. Also, he/she rippped through some blast doors on Belsavis at one point, without interference or help.

Avatar image for kellar21
Kellar21

446

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#18  Edited By Kellar21

Hmm Dooku takes this,one thing people have to realize is that when someone especifically uses something in the movies they are the best ones with that(Dooku=Makashi,Mace=Vaapad,Obi-Wan=Soresu and possibly Force Push,Yoda=Ataru,though he has mastered ALL lightsaber forms)

Makashi is especifically designed to fight opponents with lightsabers,it's weakness is that it's poor for anything else(deflecting blaster's)also Dooku has always been considered one of the best duelist's ever,he lost to Anakin more because his age and some weakness in his form against the one Skywalker was using.

This TOR vs PT era debate has already been done and by GLs mouth the PT era was the Order's best moment only behind Luke's NJO.As for Sateele Shan,put Yoda on her place at that battle and he would utterly stomp Malgus.From the trailer's I don't see her as being that powerful IMO only when she used tutanimis to absorb Magul's lightsaber's energy she was able to defeat him.

Avatar image for royharperblow
RoyHarperBLOW

1764

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#19  Edited By RoyHarperBLOW

@JediXMan

Avatar image for shroudofsorrow
shroudofsorrow

13512

Forum Posts

4048

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 17

User Lists: 70

#20  Edited By shroudofsorrow

@ShootingNova said

Cutscenes count. So the Hero of Tython has defeated two Dark Jedi (one of which had an actual lightsaber) with a training saber. He/she defeated Vitiate (or the Voice of the Emperor, but that's just the Emperor's essence in another body, but same powers and abilities etc.), Darth Angral, Valis, and so on. So all of that counts.

Same with the Barsen'thor. Whoever he/she defeated counts, though most (if not all) are (or nearly are) featless. Also, he/she rippped through some blast doors on Belsavis at one point, without interference or help.

So by this logic the Emperor's Wrath and Kallig II also have feats, yes?

And I thought you didn't consider Vitiate to be all that impressive...

Avatar image for shootingnova
ShootingNova

25785

Forum Posts

313

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 2

#21  Edited By ShootingNova

@Kellar21: If you read Fatal Alliance/played TOR or did something similar, you would see GM Shan's power.

@shroudofsorrow: Yes. Also, when did I say Vitiate was "unimpressive"? Just not to be wanked to Palpatine-level.

Avatar image for kellar21
Kellar21

446

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#22  Edited By Kellar21

@ShootingNova

I played TOR had to stop because of college but I went into Chapter 2 in 3 chars and never saw Shan do anything impressive,but them I don't have a Consular I ambasing my opinion on the videos with her where she get's her ass handed to her almost everytime by Malgus,her Master had to save her once and Jace had to save her too.She owned Malgus with force push but that was because she had absorbed lot's of energy,also because people who are much more versed in the EU that me find her underwhelming.

Vitiate is very powerful but to do his more impressive feats(drain a planet full of Sith Lords of all Life and Force to become virtually immortal) he needed to use rituals.While Palpatine could do most of his big things by himself.

Avatar image for lord_tenebrous
Lord_Tenebrous

10357

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Kun. A superior duelist and Force user.

Avatar image for greysentinel365
Greysentinel365

12695

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

What a relic.

Anyway, Dooku.

Avatar image for lord_tenebrous
Lord_Tenebrous

10357

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#25  Edited By Lord_Tenebrous

I revise my previous stance. Dooku takes a saber duel. Kun's confirmed Traya hype can't get him past Dooku competing with Yoda himself while exhausted, plus a massive host of accolades Kun cannot match.

Kun still takes the Force though. Dooku may have casually tossed a 215 meter Sith cruiser from the shadows, but Kun has a similar feat in levitating a buried derriphan-class battleship from the depths of a temple, said battleship also being 215 meters in size. Thing is, Kun accomplished this while significantly pre-prime. Not to mention post-DE Luke scaling.

Avatar image for deactivated-5cae4704c27f5
deactivated-5cae4704c27f5

1660

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

Dooku.

Avatar image for sithrevenant
SithRevenant

1165

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#27  Edited By SithRevenant

Kun > Hord > Pall > Muur > spirit!Muur > Darth Krayt >>> Hett < Kenobi in combative skill. No reason to believe Dooku wins in a duel in the face of that.

Kun obviously wins solidly in a Force exchange

Avatar image for arkhamasylum3
ArkhamAsylum3

3920

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

But Kenobi vs Dooku ended like this:

No Caption Provided

Avatar image for ancientdarksider
AncientDarksider

31

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Exar Kun's advantages are sith spells, and his weapon. His weapon changes blade length giving him a huge advantage.

Avatar image for sithrevenant
SithRevenant

1165

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@arkhamasylum3: Exactly, he couldn't outduel Kenobi so he abused his Force advantage. In the novel he admits he would never be able to break Kenobi's Soresu technique.

Avatar image for deactivated-60fae469e992f
deactivated-60fae469e992f

18027

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Kun, extremely convincingly

Avatar image for deactivated-60fae469e992f
deactivated-60fae469e992f

18027

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Kun still takes the Force though. Dooku may have casually tossed a 215 meter Sith cruiser from the shadows, but Kun has a similar feat in levitating a buried derriphan-class battleship from the depths of a temple, said battleship also being 215 meters in size. Thing is, Kun accomplished this while significantly pre-prime. Not to mention post-DE Luke scaling.

Kun can also scale massively from Hord, who according to Khem Val pulled a ship 315 meters from the sky. Even if we lowball it extremely and say he was exaggerating, we can easily half the size and the scaling is really really good.

Avatar image for lordofthelight
LordOfTheLight

2679

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Dooku ragdolls

Avatar image for lordofthelight
LordOfTheLight

2679

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#34  Edited By LordOfTheLight

@arkhamasylum3 said:

But Kenobi vs Dooku ended like this:

No Caption Provided

But Krayt vs Cade ended like this

No Caption Provided

Obviously Cade>Krayt

Avatar image for lordofthelight
LordOfTheLight

2679

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Kun > Hord > Pall > Muur > spirit!Muur > Darth Krayt >>> Hett < Kenobi in combative skill. No reason to believe Dooku wins in a duel in the face of that.

Kun obviously wins solidly in a Force exchange

Hett isn't comparable to Kenobi at all though.

Avatar image for arkhamasylum3
ArkhamAsylum3

3920

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

#36  Edited By ArkhamAsylum3
Avatar image for sithrevenant
SithRevenant

1165

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@lordofthelight: Yes he is, he demonstrated he was in their duel. He lost, eventually, but he was clearly good enough to give him a good fight. Krayt is obviously vastly better than he was in that duel. I even put 'Hett < Kenobi' in recognition of this.

Avatar image for lordofthelight
LordOfTheLight

2679

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@lordofthelight: The two situations aren't remotely the same.

Both were caught off guard?

Yeah, they are "exactly" the same. Denial is all good, but let's acknowledge that this is a non existent showing for Dooku, only thrown around because of the lack of awareness of the context behind it in the novel.

Avatar image for lordofthelight
LordOfTheLight

2679

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#39  Edited By LordOfTheLight

@sithrevenant said:

@lordofthelight: Yes he is, he demonstrated he was in their duel. He lost, eventually, but he was clearly good enough to give him a good fight. Krayt is obviously vastly better than he was in that duel. I even put 'Hett < Kenobi' in recognition of this.

He lasted that long only because Kenobi didn't want to kill him and heavily employing Jedi restraint. The moment Kenobi decided he wanted to kill, both his lightsaber and his arm are claimed by Kenobi

Jedi restraint is a massive thing you know? It makes the difference between Mace struggling with Ventress to being beyond Dooku

Avatar image for lord_tenebrous
Lord_Tenebrous

10357

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#40  Edited By Lord_Tenebrous

Kenobi wasn't caught off-guard. Objective sources state that Dooku drained himself ragdolling Kenobi:

"[Dooku] lifted Obi-Wan in a choke-hold, simultaneously kicking Anakin out of the way and hurling Kenobi across the room, bringing down a section of walkway to trap him there. However, in expending all his energy to dispatch Kenobi, the Count was left helpless before Skywalker's rage."

-- The Official Starships and Vehicles Collection #3

Clearly lifting a human body and hurling it (which would be Dooku's feat if Kenobi did have his defenses down) is not a draining feat for someone who can casually chuck 215 meter cruisers years prior to ROTS. Only logical explanation is that he ripped through Kenobi's defenses, which would expend energy.

Objective source > subjective in-universe opinion PoV

Avatar image for sithrevenant
SithRevenant

1165

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@lordofthelight: He fights like that consistently though, restraint is his fighting style. When Kenobi isn't showing restraint he goes from walling off Dooku to walling off freaking Vader. Of course Hett loses to Kenobi in that mindset.

What you're ignoring is that Krayt spent the next century perfecting his skills in combat before he was getting pushed back by the spirit of Karness Muur in a duel.

Avatar image for arkhamasylum3
ArkhamAsylum3

3920

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

#42  Edited By ArkhamAsylum3

@lordofthelight: Both caught off guard lmao. Yes I'm sure Kenobi was "caught off guard" despite running at Dooku and staring him right in the face... Whether or not Kenobi couldn't raise an active Force Barrier in time is not of importance. The result will always be the same. Please explain to me how it could possibly be different especially when you consider the fact that Kenobi had backup from Anakin who could press Dooku from one angle while he could do so from the other. Regardless I don't really want to have another debate about this given we're literally doing a CaV on the damn subject (which I expect I'll lost but still) so don;t bother responding to me.

Avatar image for lordofthelight
LordOfTheLight

2679

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Kenobi wasn't caught off-guard. Objective sources state that Dooku drained himself ragdolling Kenobi:

"[Dooku] lifted Obi-Wan in a choke-hold, simultaneously kicking Anakin out of the way and hurling Kenobi across the room, bringing down a section of walkway to trap him there. However, in expending all his energy to dispatch Kenobi, the Count was left helpless before Skywalker's rage."

-- The Official Starships and Vehicles Collection #3

Clearly lifting a human body and hurling it (which would be Dooku's feat if Kenobi did have his defenses down) is not a draining feat for someone who can casually chuck 215 meter cruisers. Only logical explanation is that he ripped through Kenobi's defenses, which would expend energy.

Objective source > subjective in-universe opinion PoV

The Junior novel's canonicity( the sources that are endorsed by Lucas himself and followed up by that guy)>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Some random fact file

Apparently you didn't know that such a quote is there?

Also, dude, this quote is basically suicidal for the Dooku supporters because if Dooku expended "all his energy" in ragdolling Kenobi then obviously he is only slightly more powerful than Kenobi

Kenobi has to be a 99 for a 100 level Dooku to expend all his energy to ragdoll. He can't be an 80 or a 50 lol

Also, there is no sense at all to your logic. Once Dooku has him in the choke hold he can launch him at any speed he wants. It could be that he expended his energy launching him at a speed much higher than usual and then collapsing the platform and launching Kenobi at that speed and collapsing the platform was what costed him his energy

Movie Dooku is not at all capable of launching 215 m cruisers lmfao. He is solidly below Yoda who struggles with holding up a 10 m pillar. The power levels in Legends and the movies are vastly different and you have to reconcile the quote with the movies and only then accept it as a part of Legends unless it is from a story about Legends only

Surely if Yoda can struggle with holding up a 10 m pillar, Dooku will have his hands full with collapsing a platform and chucking Kenobi at a high velocity

Avatar image for lordofthelight
LordOfTheLight

2679

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#44  Edited By LordOfTheLight

@sithrevenant said:

@lordofthelight: He fights like that consistently though, restraint is his fighting style. When Kenobi isn't showing restraint he goes from walling off Dooku to walling off freaking Vader. Of course Hett loses to Kenobi in that mindset.

What you're ignoring is that Krayt spent the next century perfecting his skills in combat before he was getting pushed back by the spirit of Karness Muur in a duel.

Obviously we have to take characters at their highest level of performance else, explain to me the point here? You don't have any issues with taking Anakin at his best level despite the fact that he is only there for minutes at best.

That's for others to address and hasn't it already been addressed by many others?

Avatar image for sithrevenant
SithRevenant

1165

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@lordofthelight:

Anakin's version of restraint is him seeking permission to stop holding back. Kenobi's version of not holding back is more like a mindset he enters when at the utmost need. When he fights Vader, he completely lets go of his attachments and fights emotionlessly. Which isn't what he usually does. He's fighting at a much higher level than normal.

My point is that Hett can contend with Kenobi on an average day. Krayt punches far beyond that due to massive growth in all aspects.

The chain still stands.

Avatar image for lord_tenebrous
Lord_Tenebrous

10357

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@lordofthelight:

"The Junior novel's canonicity( the sources that are endorsed by Lucas himself and followed up by that guy)>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Some random fact file"

Lucas line-edited the adult novel yet left absolute mountains of EU and non-canon content. So I repeat, an objective, OOU fact file > a subjective, in-universe PoV. End of story.

"Also, dude, this quote is basically suicidal for the Dooku supporters because if Dooku expended 'all his energy' in ragdolling Kenobi then obviously he is only slightly more powerful than Kenobi. Kenobi has to be a 99 for a 100 level Dooku to expend all his energy to ragdoll. He can't be an 80 or a 50 lol"

I do not take fan sidings into consideration when determining the authenticity of lore. Moreover, hardly. We can attribute Dooku expending all his energy on ragdolling Kenobi, to him already depleting most of his reserves to physically compete with Anakin and Obi-Wan, enough to hold a noticeable edge over them, to the point where it is draining to dominate a titan Force user like Kenobi. 

"Also, there is no sense at all to your logic. Once Dooku has him in the choke hold he can launch him at any speed he wants. It could be that he expended his energy launching him at a speed much higher than usual and then collapsing the platform and launching Kenobi at that speed and collapsing the platform was what costed him his energy"

You are repeating what I said in more detailed terms. Hurling Kenobi's body isn't going to be draining, nor collapsing a small platform.

"Movie Dooku is not at all capable of launching 215 m cruisers lmfao."

We are not talking about a movies-only universe, otherwise Kenobi is trash as he has zero impressive telekinetic feats, and your novel excerpt is gone thus removing any basis for Kenobi being off-guard and therefore Dooku still > Kenobi. 

"He is solidly below Yoda who struggles with holding up a 10 m pillar."

AOTC Dooku can hardpress Yoda with his lightning, and ROTS Yoda is the superior of Sidious who can casually toss around multiple senate pods each of which are similar in size to the platform Dooku collapsed.

"The power levels in Legends and the movies are vastly different and you have to reconcile the quote with the movies and only then accept it as a part of Legends unless it is from a story about Legends only"

In other words, you are arguing to cement the film animation limitations and laziness into G-canon fact, and discard legends expansions, thus making everyone in the prequel and OT era indisputable garbage Force users incapable of competing with the bottom tiers of the EU.

AOTC Tano has comparable Force showings to Yoda and Sidious. Rebels Ahsoka clearly one-shots them now.

Avatar image for lordofthelight
LordOfTheLight

2679

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@lordofthelight:

"The Junior novel's canonicity( the sources that are endorsed by Lucas himself and followed up by that guy)>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Some random fact file"

Lucas line-edited the adult novel yet left absolute mountains of EU and non-canon content. So I repeat, an objective, OOU fact file > a subjective, in-universe PoV. End of story.

"Also, dude, this quote is basically suicidal for the Dooku supporters because if Dooku expended 'all his energy' in ragdolling Kenobi then obviously he is only slightly more powerful than Kenobi. Kenobi has to be a 99 for a 100 level Dooku to expend all his energy to ragdoll. He can't be an 80 or a 50 lol"

I do not take fan sidings into consideration when determining the authenticity of lore. Moreover, hardly. We can attribute Dooku expending all his energy on ragdolling Kenobi, to him already depleting most of his reserves to physically compete with Anakin and Obi-Wan, enough to hold a noticeable edge over them, to the point where it is draining to dominate a titan Force user like Kenobi.

"Also, there is no sense at all to your logic. Once Dooku has him in the choke hold he can launch him at any speed he wants. It could be that he expended his energy launching him at a speed much higher than usual and then collapsing the platform and launching Kenobi at that speed and collapsing the platform was what costed him his energy"

You are repeating what I said in more detailed terms. Hurling Kenobi's body isn't going to be draining, nor collapsing a small platform.

"Movie Dooku is not at all capable of launching 215 m cruisers lmfao."

We are not talking about a movies-only universe, otherwise Kenobi is trash as he has zero impressive telekinetic feats, and your novel excerpt is gone thus removing any basis for Kenobi being off-guard and therefore Dooku still > Kenobi.

"He is solidly below Yoda who struggles with holding up a 10 m pillar."

AOTC Dooku can hardpress Yoda with his lightning, and ROTS Yoda is the superior of Sidious who can casually toss around multiple senate pods each of which are similar in size to the platform Dooku collapsed.

"The power levels in Legends and the movies are vastly different and you have to reconcile the quote with the movies and only then accept it as a part of Legends unless it is from a story about Legends only"

In other words, you are arguing to cement the film animation limitations and laziness into G-canon fact, and discard legends expansions, thus making everyone in the prequel and OT era indisputable garbage Force users incapable of competing with the bottom tiers of the EU.

AOTC Tano has comparable Force showings to Yoda and Sidious. Rebels Ahsoka clearly one-shots them now.

What are you talking about? Kenobi being caught off guard is not subjective in-universe pov, it is objective narrative fact stated in the Junior Novel. There is nothing subjective about it lmfao. It is as clear as it can be

Junior Novel>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Any fact file. This is not debatable.

Lucas worked closely with the novel authors and has repeatedly edited the novels. Obviously the movies novels have higher priority than any other source

In that case, both Kenobi and Anakin were much more tired in engaging in a deep space battle, and engaging with armies of droids and then battling Dooku himself than Dooku could ever be.

Also, both were using much more energy intensive forms against Dooku( Kenobi was using Ataru and Anakin was using Shien) before they decided to engage him with their real prowess in the battle. Dooku on the other hand has his entire style built around precision and economy and expending as little energy as possible. This is discounting the events of LoE where all Dooku did was sit on his ass but Kenobi and Skywalker repeatedly risked their lives. LoE goes to ROTS without any interruptions, there is no rest for the characters before they come to ROTS

This point looks much worse for Dooku than it did before. Basically Kenobi can boast being better than Dooku since he had expended much more energy than Dooku before coming to the battle.

None of this matters since that quote is invalid anyways

It is going to be draining in the movies considering other feats by characters.

You are still not getting it. The novels etc. are based on the movies themselves. The movies have the highest priority, thus hurling Kenobi and collapsing platforms is not going to be draining to Dooku who is capable of launching ships but it is going to drain Dooku who is much below holding up 10 m pillars

Dooku's lightning was handled easily by Yoda by many more sources than one, including the movie. Sidious is vastly better than Dooku and this point really isn't debatable.

The movies are absolute G-canon lmfao.

I am not discarding legends. I am just saying that quotes that are based on the movies should constrict themselves to movies only since they make very little sense when taken in the broad context of Legends. There are so many things the characters could have done in legends but do not do so in the movies and since the novels and fact files are based on the movies, we cannot mix and mash everything. There are so many things that characters can do in battles in Legends but never do in the movies, there are so many powers they can use, much more logical choices they can make. Characters in any adaptations of the movies are weak, because they are based on the movies and have to adhere to them. Therefore the Dooku in the IH battle, because any source covering the IH battle is based on the movies, cannot throw 215 m cruisers( there is no guarantee they were that long anyway) because the Dooku in the movies is weak. However, going strictly into Legends the powers are wildly exaggerated( this is confirmed by many authors including John Jackson Miller) so we say that the "Legends version" of the character can do all the awesome stuff because the rules of Legends apply to them. Which is why they can stack up to other Legends characters because we take into account the exaggerated things they can do. But as they were created and actually meant to be, by George Lucas, no they are too weak and have trash feats ob

This is how debating is done here, and this is the paradigm followed. You can check the pattern. It's not exclusive, most simply adjust to it because it makes sense rather than trying to somehow argue that character in the main novel can move planets. The movies and their adaptations are used to compare the characters in the same era but all of them have the same limitations ascribed to them. You aren't stupid, you must have noticed that in the PT era most feats are massively inconsistent. More specifically, in sources that are adaptations of the movies the characters are weak beyond belief yet when we go outside the movies into other stories they suddenly become strong, and have raw power and knowledge that wasn't simply shown in the movies or their adaptations( because adaptations of the movies have to stay true to the source material and this is verified by Lucas Licensing). This makes sense too. Because if Dooku in the fact file adaptation was capable of moving 215 m cruisers then the entire style of the battle, and maybe even the story would be completely different. Heck, the entire story would change in dramatic ways

At this point you have two choices

Argue that the characters are stupid and make excuses for why they don't do things Legends allows them to do( you can try but it is impossible to argue, countless others have tried, there are simply too many loopholes and plot points)

Recognize that the characters in movies and their adaptations are toned down and treat them accordingly. As entities different from Legends where the people that are in that very era can be compared due to direct intent by the creator. Else, do you really believe that Yoda or Mace Windu in the novels as Lucas and Matthew Stover wrote them can move planets or at least, lift continents because that is where Legends scaling puts them, as they are in the story? That is a rhetorical question.

This is how the debating has evolved over the years not because of some hive mentality but because this is what makes sense. It makes absolutely no sense to presume that Yoda in the movies or the movie adaptations can do planet busting because he can't. His limit is at lifting pillars and being highly strained to stop a senate pod in the air. Not because of laziness of movie animators( lmfao) but because we visibly see his limit and read it in the novel. We cannot use the movies to compare him to Exar Kun because his powers are toned down there and by extension in any fact file or novel that is an adaptation of the movie.

Legends is basically nothing, we are simply saying that the characters there can do all the exaggerated things they couldn't do in the main sources. The movies say that Yoda>Dooku, Legends says that Yoda>>>>Exar Kun and Dooku>Exar Kun because the exaggerated things are applicable there. Going by the movies or their adaptations, Exar Kun stomps Yoda obviously. Exar Kun stomps the movie Yoda, he stomps the novel Yoda, he stomps the fact file Yoda because Yoda there is simply that weak. It is a deliberate inconsistency, because the latter Yoda is Lucas's Yoda whereas the other Yoda is the exaggerated Yoda in line with the other exaggerated things by Legends

I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used. When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions.

So yeah, only the Disney canon has this Legends policy but going by his original intent, Lucas's Legends was the EU, and his canon was the movies, novels based on his movies or anything that adapted his movies

Jedi Quest is the EU. The main novel, or Junior Novel is Lucas's canon. Obviously both are important but again, you have to understand the intent behind both sources. In the exaggerated universe, Yoda>Dooku won't change, just their powers and abilities and the scale at which they have that power. But the movie adaptations still do the job of letting us know which characters are better than the other and this doesn't change. Basically if exaggerated Yoda can move planets, exaggerated Dooku can move continents.

Avatar image for deactivated-5d446f1367ece
deactivated-5d446f1367ece

295

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Dooku in a good fight