@lordofthelight:
"The Junior novel's canonicity( the sources that are endorsed by Lucas himself and followed up by that guy)>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Some random fact file"
Lucas line-edited the adult novel yet left absolute mountains of EU and non-canon content. So I repeat, an objective, OOU fact file > a subjective, in-universe PoV. End of story.
"Also, dude, this quote is basically suicidal for the Dooku supporters because if Dooku expended 'all his energy' in ragdolling Kenobi then obviously he is only slightly more powerful than Kenobi. Kenobi has to be a 99 for a 100 level Dooku to expend all his energy to ragdoll. He can't be an 80 or a 50 lol"
I do not take fan sidings into consideration when determining the authenticity of lore. Moreover, hardly. We can attribute Dooku expending all his energy on ragdolling Kenobi, to him already depleting most of his reserves to physically compete with Anakin and Obi-Wan, enough to hold a noticeable edge over them, to the point where it is draining to dominate a titan Force user like Kenobi.
"Also, there is no sense at all to your logic. Once Dooku has him in the choke hold he can launch him at any speed he wants. It could be that he expended his energy launching him at a speed much higher than usual and then collapsing the platform and launching Kenobi at that speed and collapsing the platform was what costed him his energy"
You are repeating what I said in more detailed terms. Hurling Kenobi's body isn't going to be draining, nor collapsing a small platform.
"Movie Dooku is not at all capable of launching 215 m cruisers lmfao."
We are not talking about a movies-only universe, otherwise Kenobi is trash as he has zero impressive telekinetic feats, and your novel excerpt is gone thus removing any basis for Kenobi being off-guard and therefore Dooku still > Kenobi.
"He is solidly below Yoda who struggles with holding up a 10 m pillar."
AOTC Dooku can hardpress Yoda with his lightning, and ROTS Yoda is the superior of Sidious who can casually toss around multiple senate pods each of which are similar in size to the platform Dooku collapsed.
"The power levels in Legends and the movies are vastly different and you have to reconcile the quote with the movies and only then accept it as a part of Legends unless it is from a story about Legends only"
In other words, you are arguing to cement the film animation limitations and laziness into G-canon fact, and discard legends expansions, thus making everyone in the prequel and OT era indisputable garbage Force users incapable of competing with the bottom tiers of the EU.
AOTC Tano has comparable Force showings to Yoda and Sidious. Rebels Ahsoka clearly one-shots them now.
What are you talking about? Kenobi being caught off guard is not subjective in-universe pov, it is objective narrative fact stated in the Junior Novel. There is nothing subjective about it lmfao. It is as clear as it can be
Junior Novel>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Any fact file. This is not debatable.
Lucas worked closely with the novel authors and has repeatedly edited the novels. Obviously the movies novels have higher priority than any other source
In that case, both Kenobi and Anakin were much more tired in engaging in a deep space battle, and engaging with armies of droids and then battling Dooku himself than Dooku could ever be.
Also, both were using much more energy intensive forms against Dooku( Kenobi was using Ataru and Anakin was using Shien) before they decided to engage him with their real prowess in the battle. Dooku on the other hand has his entire style built around precision and economy and expending as little energy as possible. This is discounting the events of LoE where all Dooku did was sit on his ass but Kenobi and Skywalker repeatedly risked their lives. LoE goes to ROTS without any interruptions, there is no rest for the characters before they come to ROTS
This point looks much worse for Dooku than it did before. Basically Kenobi can boast being better than Dooku since he had expended much more energy than Dooku before coming to the battle.
None of this matters since that quote is invalid anyways
It is going to be draining in the movies considering other feats by characters.
You are still not getting it. The novels etc. are based on the movies themselves. The movies have the highest priority, thus hurling Kenobi and collapsing platforms is not going to be draining to Dooku who is capable of launching ships but it is going to drain Dooku who is much below holding up 10 m pillars
Dooku's lightning was handled easily by Yoda by many more sources than one, including the movie. Sidious is vastly better than Dooku and this point really isn't debatable.
The movies are absolute G-canon lmfao.
I am not discarding legends. I am just saying that quotes that are based on the movies should constrict themselves to movies only since they make very little sense when taken in the broad context of Legends. There are so many things the characters could have done in legends but do not do so in the movies and since the novels and fact files are based on the movies, we cannot mix and mash everything. There are so many things that characters can do in battles in Legends but never do in the movies, there are so many powers they can use, much more logical choices they can make. Characters in any adaptations of the movies are weak, because they are based on the movies and have to adhere to them. Therefore the Dooku in the IH battle, because any source covering the IH battle is based on the movies, cannot throw 215 m cruisers( there is no guarantee they were that long anyway) because the Dooku in the movies is weak. However, going strictly into Legends the powers are wildly exaggerated( this is confirmed by many authors including John Jackson Miller) so we say that the "Legends version" of the character can do all the awesome stuff because the rules of Legends apply to them. Which is why they can stack up to other Legends characters because we take into account the exaggerated things they can do. But as they were created and actually meant to be, by George Lucas, no they are too weak and have trash feats ob
This is how debating is done here, and this is the paradigm followed. You can check the pattern. It's not exclusive, most simply adjust to it because it makes sense rather than trying to somehow argue that character in the main novel can move planets. The movies and their adaptations are used to compare the characters in the same era but all of them have the same limitations ascribed to them. You aren't stupid, you must have noticed that in the PT era most feats are massively inconsistent. More specifically, in sources that are adaptations of the movies the characters are weak beyond belief yet when we go outside the movies into other stories they suddenly become strong, and have raw power and knowledge that wasn't simply shown in the movies or their adaptations( because adaptations of the movies have to stay true to the source material and this is verified by Lucas Licensing). This makes sense too. Because if Dooku in the fact file adaptation was capable of moving 215 m cruisers then the entire style of the battle, and maybe even the story would be completely different. Heck, the entire story would change in dramatic ways
At this point you have two choices
Argue that the characters are stupid and make excuses for why they don't do things Legends allows them to do( you can try but it is impossible to argue, countless others have tried, there are simply too many loopholes and plot points)
Recognize that the characters in movies and their adaptations are toned down and treat them accordingly. As entities different from Legends where the people that are in that very era can be compared due to direct intent by the creator. Else, do you really believe that Yoda or Mace Windu in the novels as Lucas and Matthew Stover wrote them can move planets or at least, lift continents because that is where Legends scaling puts them, as they are in the story? That is a rhetorical question.
This is how the debating has evolved over the years not because of some hive mentality but because this is what makes sense. It makes absolutely no sense to presume that Yoda in the movies or the movie adaptations can do planet busting because he can't. His limit is at lifting pillars and being highly strained to stop a senate pod in the air. Not because of laziness of movie animators( lmfao) but because we visibly see his limit and read it in the novel. We cannot use the movies to compare him to Exar Kun because his powers are toned down there and by extension in any fact file or novel that is an adaptation of the movie.
Legends is basically nothing, we are simply saying that the characters there can do all the exaggerated things they couldn't do in the main sources. The movies say that Yoda>Dooku, Legends says that Yoda>>>>Exar Kun and Dooku>Exar Kun because the exaggerated things are applicable there. Going by the movies or their adaptations, Exar Kun stomps Yoda obviously. Exar Kun stomps the movie Yoda, he stomps the novel Yoda, he stomps the fact file Yoda because Yoda there is simply that weak. It is a deliberate inconsistency, because the latter Yoda is Lucas's Yoda whereas the other Yoda is the exaggerated Yoda in line with the other exaggerated things by Legends
I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used. When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions.
So yeah, only the Disney canon has this Legends policy but going by his original intent, Lucas's Legends was the EU, and his canon was the movies, novels based on his movies or anything that adapted his movies
Jedi Quest is the EU. The main novel, or Junior Novel is Lucas's canon. Obviously both are important but again, you have to understand the intent behind both sources. In the exaggerated universe, Yoda>Dooku won't change, just their powers and abilities and the scale at which they have that power. But the movie adaptations still do the job of letting us know which characters are better than the other and this doesn't change. Basically if exaggerated Yoda can move planets, exaggerated Dooku can move continents.
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