#1 Edited by the_mighty_Beyonder (701 posts) - - Show Bio

this is the greatest Cosmic Battle tournament, we have 8 of the most powerful Marvel beings fighting for the title of the greatest champion of the Marvel universe.

  • the arena of battle is a neutral realm as vast as the entire multiverse,
  • no one get advantages or restraints from the arena of battle
  • the arena of battle is strong enough to resist destructive power of all fights
  • no one get advantage of won battles for the use in next battles (like absorbing a being and using his power for the next fight)
  • no morals
  • quarter-final :

    round1 :

    Nemesis

    Vs

    Abraxas

    Round2:

    The Beyonder (pre retcon)

    Vs

    Sise-Neg

    round3:

    Molecule Man (pre retcon)

    Vs

    Adam Warlock with the Infinity Gauntlet

    round4:

    Thanos with the Heart Of The Universe

    Vs

    Protege

    Semi final:

    round5 : winner of round1 vs winner of round2

    round6 : winner of round3 vs winner of round4

    final round : winner of round5 vs winner of round6 (obviously)

    it's up to you to decide now how the Battle tournament goes.

    #2 Posted by the_mighty_Beyonder (701 posts) - - Show Bio

    that's how it goes in my opinion :

    #3 Posted by Butcher_Pete (259 posts) - - Show Bio

    That looks about right.

    #4 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (3909 posts) - - Show Bio

    @the_mighty_Beyonder said:

    that's how it goes in my opinion :

    Thanos wins, and why does MM beat Adam with the IG exactly?

    #5 Posted by the_mighty_Beyonder (701 posts) - - Show Bio

    @LordOfAllHumans said:

    @the_mighty_Beyonder said:

    that's how it goes in my opinion :

    Thanos wins, and why does MM beat Adam with the IG exactly?

    1- it's the pre retcon version of Molecule Man he's stronger than all Beings in the multiverse combined, including Living Tribunal, this latter is stronger than Infinity Gauntlet, so MM wins round 3.

    2- Beyonder is at least millions time stronger than all multiverse combined, that means HOTU included. also Thanos/HOTU showed a big limit when he couldn't heal directly a mere universe from close destruction, in the other hand Beyonder healed the multiverse from every aspect of death.

    #6 Posted by lolcattz (74 posts) - - Show Bio

    Aunt May takes this.

    #7 Posted by tomlikesfries (4625 posts) - - Show Bio

    Hmm... I don't know, so I'll say Batman with prep.

    #8 Posted by DocFatalis (1419 posts) - - Show Bio

    @the_mighty_Beyonder said:

    @LordOfAllHumans said:

    @the_mighty_Beyonder said:

    that's how it goes in my opinion :

    Thanos wins, and why does MM beat Adam with the IG exactly?

    1- it's the pre retcon version of Molecule Man he's stronger than all Beings in the multiverse combined, including Living Tribunal, this latter is stronger than Infinity Gauntlet, so MM wins round 3.

    2- Beyonder is at least millions time stronger than all multiverse combined, that means HOTU included. also Thanos/HOTU showed a big limit when he couldn't heal directly a mere universe from close destruction, in the other hand Beyonder healed the multiverse from every aspect of death.

    Ha, ha ha! Hilarious!

    So you're still there?

    Well, considering the SW arc happened well before the IG run... wait, I don't need to present you with logical arguments, it doesn't work with you, I remember ( has been trying the rational way with you for ever and only got insults in return), so let's just state that you're a liar ready to pretend anything is a fact as long as it keeps the Beyonder on top of the power chain.

    Anyone who doubts this, just check the following thread: http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/pre-retcon-beyonder-vs-thanos-w-hotu-vs-coie-anti-monitor/692800/

    Sorry, Fanboy, no honor, no respect.

    #9 Edited by Killemall (18255 posts) - - Show Bio

    @the_mighty_Beyonder said:

    2- Beyonder is at least millions time stronger than all multiverse combined, that means HOTU included. also Thanos/HOTU showed a big limit when he couldn't heal directly a mere universe from close destruction, in the other hand Beyonder healed the multiverse from every aspect of death.

    Among various other stuffs that i disagreed that particular sentence simply cant be correct. You are comparing not being able to heal the prime universe (which TOAA was said unable to do so) to killing Death. Firstly, it has nothing to do with insufficient power, Thanos did show he could destroy and re-create that whole universe out of nothing, so anyone being rational would know it has nothing to do with limited powers (after all wouldnt you think it would take more power/energy to create the universe out of nothing than to heal it?). Then we have a comparision of Beyonder killing Lady Death being compared to Thanos not healing the universe, notwithstanding killing Lady Death did NOT solve the problem in Secret Wars 2, and Beyonder had to re-resurrect Lady Death and Lady death has always been Thanos's love interest, his motivation to everything he has done thus far. Also given the fact that Thanos did kill Eternity, Infinity and Living Tribunal together with little to no trouble and resurrected them afterwards just fine, saying he couldnt kill Death if he wanted to seem incorrect in every way.

    Also when was it ever stated Molecule Man was stronger than all of the beings combined?? The only statement i remember is Molecule Man being stated the second most powerful being in creation after Beyonder.

    #10 Posted by CalebHara (2329 posts) - - Show Bio

    Next battle should be, Yommamgeddon by Deadpool, against Everyone. The last person that hasn't killed themselves wins.

    #11 Posted by Sethlol (1296 posts) - - Show Bio

    Beyonder comes on top imo.

    #12 Posted by the_mighty_Beyonder (701 posts) - - Show Bio

    @DocFatalis said:

    @the_mighty_Beyonder said:

    @LordOfAllHumans said:

    @the_mighty_Beyonder said:

    that's how it goes in my opinion :

    Thanos wins, and why does MM beat Adam with the IG exactly?

    1- it's the pre retcon version of Molecule Man he's stronger than all Beings in the multiverse combined, including Living Tribunal, this latter is stronger than Infinity Gauntlet, so MM wins round 3.

    2- Beyonder is at least millions time stronger than all multiverse combined, that means HOTU included. also Thanos/HOTU showed a big limit when he couldn't heal directly a mere universe from close destruction, in the other hand Beyonder healed the multiverse from every aspect of death.

    Ha, ha ha! Hilarious!

    So you're still there?

    Well, considering the SW arc happened well before the IG run... wait, I don't need to present you with logical arguments, it doesn't work with you, I remember ( has been trying the rational way with you for ever and only got insults in return), so let's just state that you're a liar ready to pretend anything is a fact as long as it keeps the Beyonder on top of the power chain.

    Anyone who doubts this, just check the following thread: http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/pre-retcon-beyonder-vs-thanos-w-hotu-vs-coie-anti-monitor/692800/

    Sorry, Fanboy, no honor, no respect.

    aha, ahaha, what!! hahahahahahaha!!!! so to summarize, you don't have the courage or the intelligence to debate in debate forums, well, big L to you sir, do you do that often? do you go from thread to thread and put those stupid words everywhere!!!! you think you're so right that you don't have to debate and just insult people!! well, hail the absolute truthful, hail and bow to the prophet of truth. -_-'

    pathetic, get the hell out of here.

    #13 Edited by the_mighty_Beyonder (701 posts) - - Show Bio

    @Killemall said:

    @the_mighty_Beyonder said:

    2- Beyonder is at least millions time stronger than all multiverse combined, that means HOTU included. also Thanos/HOTU showed a big limit when he couldn't heal directly a mere universe from close destruction, in the other hand Beyonder healed the multiverse from every aspect of death.

    Among various other stuffs that i disagreed that particular sentence simply cant be correct. You are comparing not being able to heal the prime universe (which TOAA was said unable to do so) to killing Death. Firstly, it has nothing to do with insufficient power, Thanos did show he could destroy and re-create that whole universe out of nothing, so anyone being rational would know it has nothing to do with limited powers (after all wouldnt you think it would take more power/energy to create the universe out of nothing than to heal it?). Then we have a comparision of Beyonder killing Lady Death being compared to Thanos not healing the universe, notwithstanding killing Lady Death did NOT solve the problem in Secret Wars 2, and Beyonder had to re-resurrect Lady Death and Lady death has always been Thanos's love interest, his motivation to everything he has done thus far. Also given the fact that Thanos did kill Eternity, Infinity and Living Tribunal together with little to no trouble and resurrected them afterwards just fine, saying he couldnt kill Death if he wanted to seem incorrect in every way.

    Also when was it ever stated Molecule Man was stronger than all of the beings combined?? The only statement i remember is Molecule Man being stated the second most powerful being in creation after Beyonder.

    mmm, i think we have a stalemate you and I on this HOTU/Beyonder limits. we discussed that and couldn't get to agreement.

    but anyway to avoid a clash between us, and stay friendly :D i'll get around that, and say it seems they have both limits in different matters that can't give an absolute respond on who's better.

    I would like to ask you this question : according to storyline HOTU existed in universe at least thousands of years before now, that means when Beyonder came to earth, HOTU was there somewhere in space. and since Beyonder is stronger than all the multiverse combined that surely put him above HOTU. what can you say about that?

    about MM, it was stated in scans to letter : "he is mighier than all other beings of the multiverse", no doubt abou that.

    #14 Posted by Killemall (18255 posts) - - Show Bio

    @the_mighty_Beyonder said:

    mmm, i think we have a stalemate you and I on this HOTU/Beyonder limits. we discussed that and couldn't get to agreement.

    No worries, :)

    Although my argument was more directed towards (@LordOfAllHumans: ) so he would know all the relevant facts before making a judgement based on what you have said, but lets leave it at that.

    but anyway to avoid a clash between us, and stay friendly :D i'll get around that, and say it seems they have both limits in different matters that can give an absolute respond on who's better.

    No problem, i neither mind an argument nor a disagreement. I get a bit annoyed when people repeatedly call names, as long as you are willing to avoid it i am always happy with your response.

    I would like to ask you this question : according to storyline HOTU existed in universe at least thousands of years before now, that means when Beyonder came to earth, HOTU was there somewhere in space. and since Beyonder is stronger than all the multiverse combined that surely put him above HOTU. what can you say about that?

    There are few things that gets muzzeled. HOTU was created after the whole Secret Wars story arc, a significant years later I do not think its reasonable to assume it retroactive covers that to Beyonder. Also if we go by what Starlin was said, he believed HOTU was the most powerful thing ever shown on marvel canon, so there are conflicting reports about it. Furthermore, it being the power of a TOAA and assuming that is correct, would mean Beyonder is a million times more powerful than TOAA combined with every other abstracts makes little sense.

    about MM, it was stated in scans to letter : "he is mighier than all other beings of the multiverse", no doubt abou that.

    Thats not what i asked. My question was in response to this statement:

    1- it's the pre retcon version of Molecule Man he's stronger than all Beings in the multiverse combined

    Molecule Man was more powerful than any being in the multiverse and second only to Beyonder, that much i agree. What i dont understand is where is this being more powerful than "all of them combined" coming from.

    #15 Posted by the_mighty_Beyonder (701 posts) - - Show Bio

    @Killemall said:

    @the_mighty_Beyonder said:

    mmm, i think we have a stalemate you and I on this HOTU/Beyonder limits. we discussed that and couldn't get to agreement.

    No worries, :)

    Although my argument was more directed towards (@LordOfAllHumans: ) so he would know all the relevant facts before making a judgement based on what you have said, but lets leave it at that.

    but anyway to avoid a clash between us, and stay friendly :D i'll get around that, and say it seems they have both limits in different matters that can give an absolute respond on who's better.

    No problem, i neither mind an argument nor a disagreement. I get a bit annoyed when people repeatedly call names, as long as you are willing to avoid it i am always happy with your response.

    I would like to ask you this question : according to storyline HOTU existed in universe at least thousands of years before now, that means when Beyonder came to earth, HOTU was there somewhere in space. and since Beyonder is stronger than all the multiverse combined that surely put him above HOTU. what can you say about that?

    There are few things that gets muzzeled. HOTU was created after the whole Secret Wars story arc, a significant years later I do not think its reasonable to assume it retroactive covers that to Beyonder. Also if we go by what Starlin was said, he believed HOTU was the most powerful thing ever shown on marvel canon, so there are conflicting reports about it. Furthermore, it being the power of a TOAA and assuming that is correct, would mean Beyonder is a million times more powerful than TOAA combined with every other abstracts makes little sense.

    about MM, it was stated in scans to letter : "he is mighier than all other beings of the multiverse", no doubt abou that.

    Thats not what i asked. My question was in response to this statement:

    1- it's the pre retcon version of Molecule Man he's stronger than all Beings in the multiverse combined

    Molecule Man was more powerful than any being in the multiverse and second only to Beyonder, that much i agree. What i dont understand is where is this being more powerful than "all of them combined" coming from.

    1- no problem :)

    2- okey

    3- yes, HOTU was created after, simply because the story came after the Beyonder's story which was retconned, but i'm not talking about real timeline (writers timeline), i'm talking about fictional timeline, Beyonder's story came after HOTU according to that. since he's more powerful than all multiverse then he's more powerful than HOTU. Starlin was probably talking about official stories, according to him HOTU is the most powerful thing in official stories, that exclude all retconned stories like Beyonder's.

    and about TOAA, sorry but i can't accept that the supreme God of Marvel can"t heal directly 1 universe. it was stated that he can't by Thanos, it was on Thanos panels not writers panel, it's an important detail for me. Thanos himself stated that he has only assemptions about TOAA and that he was wrong on certain things, that means he's not sure about anything he says about TOAA, he even said that TOAA is only a mindless vast energy which contradict all the appearences that TOAA had in Marvel stories.

    4- my bad, i used a fancy expression there, the wrongness is in one word "combined" and i agree with you it wasn't mentionned at all in comics.

    #16 Posted by Killemall (18255 posts) - - Show Bio

    @the_mighty_Beyonder said:

    1- no problem :)

    2- okey

    3- yes, HOTU was created after, simply because the story came after the Beyonder's story which was retconned, but i'm not talking about real timeline (writers timeline), i'm talking about fictional timeline, Beyonder's story came after HOTU according to that. since he's more powerful than all multiverse then he's more powerful than HOTU. Starlin was probably talking about official stories, according to him HOTU is the most powerful thing in official stories, that exclude all retconned stories like Beyonder's.

    The statement about Beyonder being more powerful than Marvel multiverse combined comes from the writer, but at the time the writer wrote the story arc HOTU did not exist. Its just like saying Eternity was the most powerful abstract, because when it was stated Living Tribunal wasnt created nor was he listed under abstract.

    and about TOAA, sorry but i can't accept that the supreme God of Marvel can"t heal directly 1 universe. it was stated that he can't by Thanos, it was on Thanos panels not writers panel, it's an important detail for me.

    Its up to you but things like that has happened multiple times. Also taking the most relevant example, Presence, DC omnipotent god had similar problem. Lucifer Morningstar was capable of creating a door, and even Presence couldnt erase it from existence. It was stated on panel, now you will have to find a reason why Thanos would lie to himself. Not to mention, that was the whole Plot of the arc, they cant simply have Thanos keep power of that magnitude so Starlin had to come up with something.

    Thanos himself stated that he has only assemptions about TOAA and that he was wrong on certain things, that means he's not sure about anything he says about TOAA, he even said that TOAA is only a mindless vast energy which contradict all the appearences that TOAA had in Marvel stories.

    Thats not true, before he got the power of HOTU, during an earlier story arc he believed Nemesis, or the phased used in that story arc "Infinity Being" was a god, and the statement about wrongly assuming supreme being being a vast mindless energy was made in his regards.

    He doesnt actually state TOAA as mindless in the story though.

    4- my bad, i used a fancy expression there, the wrongness is in one word "combined" and i agree with you it wasn't mentionned at all in comics.

    Cool, i agree with the outcome though, i would think Molecule Man is more powerful than IG or Nemesis for that matter.

    #17 Posted by the_mighty_Beyonder (701 posts) - - Show Bio

    @Killemall: this is where he said it

    but, reading it now again made me see that he meant the opposite of what i thought. sorry :P

    #18 Posted by AssertingValor (5380 posts) - - Show Bio

    @Sethlol said:

    Beyonder comes on top imo.

    #19 Edited by Killemall (18255 posts) - - Show Bio

    @the_mighty_Beyonder: No problem, certainly seemed like he was talking about IG story arc.

    Also in line with discussion what do you think Seis-Neg in the thread had this been ranked them in order as opposed to one on one fight? He is by far the most difficult character to debate for or against. We know nothing about his limits apart from that fact that he can and did drain/ beat Shuma Gorath, and that was before he truly ascended to godhood, how much did his powers increased, what happened after that no body knows.

    #20 Posted by the_mighty_Beyonder (701 posts) - - Show Bio

    @Killemall said:

    @the_mighty_Beyonder: No problem, certainly seemed like he was talking about IG story arc.

    Also in line with discussion what do you think Seis-Neg in the thread had this been ranked them in order as opposed to one on one fight? He is by far the most difficult character to debate for or against. We know nothing about his limits apart from that fact that he can and did drain/ beat Shuma Gorath, and that was before he truly ascended to godhood, how much did his powers increased, what happened after that no body knows.

    as stated in comics, he was absorbing all magical powers in the universe from different places, and times. if i remember, before he recreate the multiverse, he absorbed the power of the big bang, that makes him with power equal or slightly superior to the power of the multiverse.

    #21 Posted by Killemall (18255 posts) - - Show Bio

    @the_mighty_Beyonder said:

    as stated in comics, he was absorbing all magical powers in the universe from different places, and times.

    Yes that part i understand, i am having problem putting a limit to how powerful or potential he could be.

    if i remember, before he recreate the multiverse, he absorbed the power of the big bang, that makes him with power equal or slightly superior to the power of the multiverse.

    The term multiverse was never even mentioned during the story arc. It was a universal power he housed, powered from all magical artifacts and magical power stolen from various mystics upto and including Shuma Gorath.

    I certainly interpreted this as being a universal big bang.

    Marvel Premier 14

    I have read about the character, the only issue i am missing is his appearance in What If vol 2 , after all he has only 2 appearances. Based on feat i would put him, below anyone here on the line up , by quite a huge margin, that's one reason i was surprised he put him against Beyonder, it was pretty much GTFO kick to start, given there is pretty much no leeway to keep him even 1/100 the power of Beyonder.

    That is why i asked, because Seis-Neg felt a little out of place in the given hierarchy.

    #22 Edited by the_mighty_Beyonder (701 posts) - - Show Bio

    @Killemall: i always thought there is one big bang from where emerge all multiverse, but i changed my mind about that a long time ago, yes it's only mentioned universe not multiverse, i just read the issue. but it shouldn't be a problem to speculate the limit of his power, he only did absorb eneriges that make him as i said equal or slightly above all the power of a universe. he can't evolve to more than that he's not a pokemon :P

    Based on feat i would put him, below anyone here on the line up , by quite a huge margin, that's one reason i was surprised he put him against Beyonder, it was pretty much GTFO kick to start, given there is pretty much no leeway to keep him even 1/100 the power of Beyonder.

    loool !! actually i couldn't think of more powerful than him, besides the Abstracts, he still more powerful than any other character i know like Alien Entity, Mikaboshi, CWHerc, Genis-Vell...

    #23 Posted by Killemall (18255 posts) - - Show Bio

    @the_mighty_Beyonder: I am not sure if I would put Seis Neg more powerful than Genis-Vell (At least during Mad God Saga) or CW Hercules. Mikaboshi has much better feats than Seis Neg and Alien Entity seemed pretty same.

    Also Seis Neg never actually absorbed all the energies of the universe or the big bang, he only absorbed mystical energies, and that is what he was shown capable of. Makes sense that he went after guys like Merlyn and Shuma-gorath as opposed to guys like Eternity or Galactus. Also given none of the guys actually are magical in nature, i dont see Seis Neg being able to absorb there energy in the fight.

    #24 Posted by the_mighty_Beyonder (701 posts) - - Show Bio

    @Killemall said:

    @the_mighty_Beyonder: I am not sure if I would put Seis Neg more powerful than Genis-Vell (At least during Mad God Saga) or CW Hercules. Mikaboshi has much better feats than Seis Neg and Alien Entity seemed pretty same.

    Also Seis Neg never actually absorbed all the energies of the universe or the big bang, he only absorbed mystical energies, and that is what he was shown capable of. Makes sense that he went after guys like Merlyn and Shuma-gorath as opposed to guys like Eternity or Galactus. Also given none of the guys actually are magical in nature, i dont see Seis Neg being able to absorb there energy in the fight.

    mmm good point, but Mkaboshi and CW Herc don't have better feat, the events of Chaos War were in one universe. the multiverse statement is a PIS, all the events were in one universe, there is no clue that it's multiversal, except what Cho said, which i find irrelevent, how would he know if Mikaboshi absorbed 98% of the multiverse, it makes no sense.

    Alien Entity did the same as Sise-Neg, but he needed help from Reed Richards to create the universe, that suely put him below Sise-Neg

    about Genis-Vell, it's actually very debatable, nothing show that he's as powerful as universe, and the event of killing Eternity is very ambiguous, we can only assume that Genis-Vell and Entropy worded together to beat Eternity with possible acceptance from Eternity to die as Genis said. also when the universe was recreated, Entropy has a hand in that, Genis killed him to make him be Eternity,i don't see Genis creating universe on his own.

    #25 Posted by DocFatalis (1419 posts) - - Show Bio

    @the_mighty_Beyonder: Debating with a liar? I am afraid you don't understand: you have ridiculed yourself in so many instances that you are not being considered as someone to reason out with: you're just a clown with no sense of honor whatsoever. Now you want to talk about courage? Well, try going to a war theatre and standing up for the civilian populations even when you are almost sure that some of them will try to kill you with an IED later. This requires real courage, as opposed to keeping your butt on a chair in front of a computer and making up things about comic characters you have no real knowledge about.

    You are a liar, a dishonest person, a poster with so many fails you shouldn't even be allowed to post, and I can quote you to support each and everyone of those statements.

    Do you want to remind us your little theory about the Beyonder being TOAA maybe?

    #26 Posted by Killemall (18255 posts) - - Show Bio

    @the_mighty_Beyonder said:

    mmm good point, but Mkaboshi and CW Herc don't have better feat, the events of Chaos War were in one universe. the multiverse statement is a PIS, all the events were in one universe, there is no clue that it's multiversal, except what Cho said, which i find irrelevent, how would he know if Mikaboshi absorbed 98% of the multiverse, it makes no sense.

    You cant say the statement was PIS, after all bios and future story Thor Annual 01 (2012) verifies the universe being destroyed.

    Alien Entity did the same as Sise-Neg, but he needed help from Reed Richards to create the universe, that suely put him below Sise-Neg

    Alien Entity did not need help from Reed Richard, he however user Reed's mind to create a universe he thought was perfect. Not to mention Reed himself says his heart had stopped beating and he was no longer breathing. Reed power did not contributed in creating a universe, after all what can Reed on his own accord even do. He was but a witness much like Sise Neg had Baron Mordo and Dr. Strange his withness. Here are the relevant scan from Fantastic Four Graphic Novel.

    about Genis-Vell, it's actually very debatable, nothing show that he's as powerful as universe, and the event of killing Eternity is very ambiguous, we can only assume that Genis-Vell and Entropy worded together to beat Eternity with possible acceptance from Eternity to die as Genis said. also when the universe was recreated, Entropy has a hand in that, Genis killed him to make him be Eternity,i don't see Genis creating universe on his own.

    The point was,with his gun he was capable of creating a multiversal big bang, thereby changing/ shaping Entrophy to Eternity. A on panel creation of multiversal big bang should put him above Seis Neg or Alien Entity, who's feat are limited to universal in scope. I believe i have already shown you those scans so i dont want to re-post the whole thing again.

    #27 Posted by the_mighty_Beyonder (701 posts) - - Show Bio

    @Killemall: read the 6th scan you put

    Alien Entity couldn't controle what he created, he said it's beyond him, it's falling appart, without Reed's help the universe would be falling appart.

    Sise-Neg needed help from no one. it's still a slight advantage to Sise-Neg.

    The point was,with his gun he was capable of creating a multiversal big bang, thereby changing/ shaping Entrophy to Eternity. A on panel creation of multiversal big bang should put him above Seis Neg or Alien Entity, who's feat are limited to universal in scope. I believe i have already shown you those scans so i dont want to re-post the whole thing again

    well, that's a PIS, how could such important event as killing Eternity not be illustrated, that writer really piss me off. and it's illogical, two guys decide to end existence at multiversal level, and Living Tribunal do nothing, it's hilarious.

    i couldn't provide scans, but it state that Entropy decide to make creation and that he will need discharge of energy for that, that's where Genis intervened with the help and blow him, they both participated in creation.

    #28 Posted by God_Spawn (37314 posts) - - Show Bio

    @DocFatalis: Watch the insults.

    Moderator
    #29 Edited by Shuma-Gorath (433 posts) - - Show Bio

    Ah, yet again the the fleshlings place Sise-Neg at universal power because of Steve Englehart's use of the word "universe" at a time when no authors were using the term "multiverse". Alas, I knew this was bound to happen. Once more Shuma-Gorath has been summoned to clarify the scope of Sise-Neg's magnificent - - multiversal power!

    Read well, fleshlings!

    The 616 reality is representative of the present reality of Marvel Universe. Any and all realities that are located in the past or in the future of 616's present reality are held within alternate universes. Sise-Neg came from the future, his present reality, and traveled through time all the way to the point before the creation of all things by the Big Bang, as he so reveals.

    What this translates to is Sise-Neg absorbed the mystical energies from multiple universes outside of the prime reality (616) - - as was said, the past and the future are located within alternate realities that diverge from the prime reality, and he was absorbing magical energy from these alternate realities.

    Let us look at the panels to prove that this is true and not hyperbole or a rude chaos lord using trickery to deceive you fleshlings.

    Sise-Neg stopped within Paris, France of the 18th Century in order to leave behind a book that would describe the basics of his time-travelling technique and give humans a reason to remember him. Baron Mordo found this book by charming it from Lilia Calderu, Queen of the Gypsies. Within it he found writings by Sise-Neg with knowledge that he gained in the 31st Century - - the knowledge to change one's past without endangering one's existence in the present. Mordo travels into the past in order to change it and become the Sorcerer Supreme of his present reality rather than Doctor Strange, who solidified his superiority over Mordo by succeeding the Ancient One. By entering a void between time, Strange travels back in time to chase after Mordo.

    Narration: "Dr. Strange Sorcerer Supreme of our cosmos, has hurled himself into a void between time -- a gulf which never was, is, or shall be..."

    ===

    Once Strange finds Mordo they begin to battle - - and it is clear from their statements before and during battle that they are located outside of the 616 reality.

    Mordo: "Then I had learned you had finally succeeded the Ancient One, completely ensuring your unassailable superiority over me - - in our reality! ... But when I discovered the Book of Cagliostro, and how I could alter that reality to make myself supreme --!

    ===

    Yet while outside of the prime reality, or any reality in fact, both Mordo's and Strange's powers are being absorbed and they do not know how.

    Mordo: "In this non-place, our strengths may be transformed..."

    ...

    Mordo: "Yes -- I feel it, too! A wave of weakness washes over me --!"

    Strange: "He's right! Head -- spinning -- what's causing it? ...Can't -- pull myself together yet! Everything's hazy -- can't see straight enough -- to pinpoint the exact spot Mordo's leaving this void..."

    ===

    Strange and Mordo leave the void by entering a portal that leads to Paris, France of the 18th Century, where Sise-Neg has been disguising himself as the dark magician, Cagliostro. As Strange approaches a dreaming Calgiostro (Sise-Neg) within his dwelling, he begins to feel the weakness flow over him again and his power start to drain - - Sise-Neg had been absorbing power from Strange and Mordo during their battle while they were outside his own reality. In fact - - as Strange and Mordo were in a void where no reality existed, it shows that Sise-Neg was absorbing even beyond time and space!

    Strange: "As I approach him - - the weakness slides through me again! Can he be the cause? He sits so still -- completely immobile save for the slow rise and fall of his chest. He only dreams."

    Strange starts to become certain that Cagliostro (Sise-Neg) is the cause of his weakness as well as the strange incidents of time repeating itself...

    Strange: "I must assume this diplacement of the past, and my curious weakness and inability to combat my foes, are connected with Cagliostro--"

    Sise-Neg eventually stops in another alternate universe where it is the 5th Century at the time of King Arthur. He does this in order to steal all the mystical energy from the wizard Merlin after sensing the magical concentration from an alternate reality. It is here where he even states that he is absorbing much more than from just a single universe.

    Sise-Neg: "And once I become God, the universe and beyond shall be mine -- to do with as I will! Everything will be reborn as I desire it--!

    Sise-Neg then goes to yet another alternate reality to Sodom and Gomorrah, where their Priests of Death attack Sise-Neg, Mordo and Strange. Here it is seen that Sise-Neg's absorption was not only making the egocentric magic (spells of personal power) of the sorcerers weaker - - but also making the exocentric spells (power granted by otherworldly entities) of Baron Mordo and Doctor Strange weaker - - This means that Sise-Neg was weakening the very dimensional gods themselves!

    This is shown as Strange's Shield of the Seraphim crumbles when attacked by the Priests of Death in the twin cities of Sodom and Gommorah, and as others are sure to know, the Seraphim are what grant the power to use the shield. The power granted by the Seraphim for the spell's use was weaker than usual - - All thanks to Sise-Neg.

    Their final stop is in prehistoric times - - Sise-Neg had been attracted by my very own energy, as I, Shuma-Gorath, possessed the very last mystical energy in Marvel Universe. Unfortunately I had no idea of his presence and he stole my energy and cast me away to another dimension.

    Steve Englehart may have used the term "universe" at the end, but the term "universe" was used when Thanos with THOTI recreated Marvel, as with the Alien Entity and Reed, and Entropy/Genis. Every single time the term "universe" was used - - yet we know it was all of Marvel that was recreated each time by the Big Bang, and this is supported by Marvel on its website.

    http://marvel.com/universe/Marvel_Universe

    From the scans above proving that Sise-Neg was drawing power from multiple realities outside the main universe, the narration stating that Sise-Neg held "all extant [existing] power" - - and that "all time and space melt with power" clearly mean that Sise-Neg recreated ALL of Marvel.

    The scans of Sise-Neg recreating Marvel have been posted already, thus there is no reason to post them here - - the proof that Sise-Neg affected multiple universes rather than one has just been given - - he recreated ALL of Marvel's realities.

    Shuma-Gorath hopes that you accept this revelation, otherwise you are but wastes of flesh!

    #30 Posted by Killemall (18255 posts) - - Show Bio

    Seis Neg feat was in fact universal, as the word "universe" as opposed to "multiverse" has been constantly used throughout the scan.

    Not to mention the bios also put Seis-Neg feat as universal

    #31 Edited by Shuma-Gorath (433 posts) - - Show Bio

    @Killemall said:

    Seis Neg feat was in fact universal, as the word "universe" as opposed to "multiverse" has been constantly used throughout the scan.

    Not to mention the bios also put Seis-Neg feat as universal

    The proof that Sise-Neg recreated ALL of Marvel and not just a fraction of it as you say is in the story arc itself - - shown when Sise-Neg absorbs the energy from Strange and Mordo while they are located outside all time and space. He even states specifically that he is absorbing beyond the universe. You are simply stuck on the term "multiverse" when such term was not even used in comics in the early 70s.

    The author referred to all of reality as The Universe in the Sise-Neg story arc, but so did the authors when Insane Genis-Vell/Entropy recreated Marvel, as well as when Thanos/THOTI and the Alien Entity/Reed Richards recreated everything - - yet it was literally stated each time to involve all of creation. With that said, according to Marvel itself there was only a single beginning to Marvel's multiverse, and five are credited with recreating Marvel's beginning - - first Sise-Neg, then Entropy, then Thanos with THOTI, then the Alien Entity using Reed's mind as a guide. Marvel is simply a universe that has multiplied into many universes - - all of which are part of the original universe that was created by the Big Bang. Sise-Neg's Big Bang resulted in the creation of the multiverse. It is that simple, fleshling.

    http://marvel.com/universe/Marvel_Universe

    #32 Posted by Killemall (18255 posts) - - Show Bio

    @Shuma-Gorath: It certainly isnt you are just trying to attribute him better feats.

    Firstly you are using wiki, unofficial, i am using Marvel Handbook 2001 more official. The world Multiverse was already coined in 2001. Then you are saying Genis-Vell/ Entrophy where it was clearly stated to be "multiversal", then Thanos was always stated to be universal. Alien Entity / Reed Richard was also always stated to be universal. There is no way when the comics, the bios everything puts you as universal, thats just refusing to accept facts.

    #33 Edited by Shuma-Gorath (433 posts) - - Show Bio

    @Killemall said:

    @Shuma-Gorath: It certainly isnt you are just trying to attribute him better feats.

    Firstly you are using wiki, unofficial, i am using Marvel Handbook 2001 more official. The world Multiverse was already coined in 2001. Then you are saying Genis-Vell/ Entrophy where it was clearly stated to be "multiversal", then Thanos was always stated to be universal. Alien Entity / Reed Richard was also always stated to be universal. There is no way when the comics, the bios everything puts you as universal, thats just refusing to accept facts.

    I use the panels and knowledge of Marvel cosmology to simply attribute to Sise-Neg the feat that he accomplished - - recreating all of Marvel. Sise-Neg was affecting outside his universe even before he reached godhood - - outright shown as he absorbed the energy from Strange and Mordo while they were battling in another reality. Sise-Neg stated outright that he was absorbing BEYOND the universe. I will ask you a question, fleshling. Which entities represent time and space? Eternity/Infinity. These abstract concepts are beyond universal in scope. Who, according to the panel narration, absorbed ALL time and space? Sise-Neg. Who, according to the panels, held "ALL extant power"? Sise-Neg. It is astounding that you are stuck on this universe/multiverse wordplay when Marvel, a company with many stories encompassing many universes, calls itself Marvel Universe.

    In any case, all those beings listed recreated Marvel in its entirety, and Marvel is beyond Universal in scope. Starting with the Infinity Being creating the first universe with a Big Bang after committing suicide, Sise-Neg replicated the same feat by reaching the void and unleashing a Big Bang. Doctor Strange even speculates that he may have witnessed the first creation. Entropy had all reality go back to the void, as Sise-Neg did, and created a Big Bang. Thanos absorbed all of creation and returned it to the void and recreated everything with a big bang. The Alien Entity did the same thing. Every Big Bang spawned multiple universes which all began from the same atom coming from the void.

    Narration: "In a process you have come to call the Big Bang. All the black hole's stored matter and energy is spit out to interact and form gases...to form worlds - - and universes - - all flying outward in an ever-expanding cosmos. But eventually the expansion comes to a halt...then the universe begins to shrink - - contracting back toward its source. And when enough of it is swallowed by the black hole - - there is another big bang to begin the cycle anew."

    Notice above that one Big Bang spawns multiple universes, and all these universes are referred to in a group as "the universe".

    Besides, even the co-author of the Sise-Neg arc tells his audience that Sise-Neg became the Supreme Being within Marvel at the end of his journey.

    http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2005/12/22/comic-book-urban-legends-revealed-30/

    Co-author Frank Brunner:

    We had just completed Marvel Premiere #14-well, I had just completed the pencils, most of the art, but for some reason or another, nobody took notice of what we were doing. When the book came out, Stan finally got a hold of it, and I don’t know, somebody pointed it out, or he read it, and he wrote us a letter saying, “We can’t do God. You’re going to have to print in the letters column a retraction saying this is not ‘the’ God, this is just a god.” Steve and I said, “Oh, come on! This is the whole point of the story! If we did that retraction of God, this is meaningless!” So, Steve happened to be on his way to Texas for something, this is when we were in California, and we cooked up this plot-we wrote a letter from a Reverend Billingsley in Texas, a fictional person, saying that one of the children in his parish brought him the comic book, and he was astounded and thrilled by it, and he said, “Wow, this is the best comic book I’ve ever read.” And we signed it “Reverend so-and-so, Austin Texas”-and when Steve was in Texas, he mailed the letter so it had the proper postmark. Then, we got a phone call from Roy, and he said, “Hey, about that retraction, I’m going to send you a letter, and instead of the retraction, I want you to print this letter.” And it was our letter! We printed our letter!

    You wish to belive a supreme being is restricted to a mere fraction of all reality?

    *tentaclepalm*

    #34 Posted by Killemall (18255 posts) - - Show Bio

    @Shuma-Gorath: Just because he was said to be "GOD" by the writer doesnt change the fact. The word used in comics is universe, bio is universe. I am going to check few more bios and see if Seis Neg is never stated to have done anything on multiversal scale, without a bio to support that, everything you are saying, including tentical facepalm, i do not believe.

    Either show us a canon evidence, like bio that clearly says multiverse or you are just making stuffs up to make a character look good beyond what he was shown.

    #35 Posted by DocFatalis (1419 posts) - - Show Bio

    @Killemall:

    @Shuma-Gorath:

    I am not familiar with the Sise-Neg story arc, but I do agree with the fact that the word "universe" can be exchanged in many occasions with the word "multiverse". I think marvel has always had difficulties struggling with those terms and that the Multiverse appeared when writer started wanted to give a larger scale to stories, a way to raise the stakes all in all.

    The MU is by definition a multiverse to me, an ensemble encompassing an infinity of dimensions.

    #36 Posted by 7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning (3578 posts) - - Show Bio

    @Killemall said:

    @Shuma-Gorath: Just because he was said to be "GOD" by the writer doesnt change the fact. The word used in comics is universe, bio is universe. I am going to check few more bios and see if Seis Neg is never stated to have done anything on multiversal scale, without a bio to support that, everything you are saying, including tentical facepalm, i do not believe.

    Either show us a canon evidence, like bio that clearly says multiverse or you are just making stuffs up to make a character look good beyond what he was shown.

    Sise-Neg pretty much created the Multiverse. Time was linear in the 60's Marvel. After the total recton of 616 (the creation of Genesis), parallel universes started to branch off because time became non-linear. That's one of the main reasons why Genesis didn't change ANYTHING except for the fact that times can change with the actions and decisions of a character or collection of characters.

    #37 Posted by Zorn_a_Rust_Red_Scythe (310 posts) - - Show Bio

    @7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning:When Sise-Neg recreated the Multiverse along with everything/everyone inside of it, I wonder what the gods and entities located in the outer omniverse were doing. Must have been very amusing to them, and probably scary to see someone that was a mere human eventually wield all that power.

    #38 Posted by 7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning (3578 posts) - - Show Bio

    @Zorn_a_Rust_Red_Scythe said:

    @7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning:When Sise-Neg recreated the Multiverse along with everything/everyone inside of it, I wonder what the gods and entities located in the outer omniverse were doing. Must have been very amusing to them, and probably scary to see someone that was a mere human eventually wield all that power.

    In the perspective of Extradimensional beings, they would see a 2D Circle (being Eternity's realm) disappear and then reappear as a 3D sphere.

    #39 Posted by lol (4005 posts) - - Show Bio
    #40 Edited by Justanotheromnipotentguy12 (45 posts) - - Show Bio

    First of all-toaa is omnipotent, which means he has all the power there was, is and will be. When someone becomes stronger ,toaa also becomes stronger.

    Second HOTU is universal and has a small fraction of his/her power. Otherwise, adam warlock wouldn't have been there to throw sense in him. And the LT he absorbed was a M-body

    #41 Posted by lol (4005 posts) - - Show Bio

    bumpy