why batman and aquaman are in this fight? They can't help at all, and green lantern can just hold someone of the team enemy for some minutes, superman and MMH have weakness too easy to SS take advantage and wonder woman have little chance to win against any of them alone
Someone made a great arguement for Aquaman a couple days back and I figured most people agreed with his assessment. I've also noticed people think Batman is almost = Doom with his prep. Thought it would be a good match on these forums.
Who would you switch them for to make it a more even match?
You would need some heavy JLA hitters to deal with bloodlusted Surfer and Ronan with his cosmic weapon.Wally West could do a lot of damage as far as overpowered former leaguers go -- also it's kind of weird you've made a Justice League team with no Flash, so it'd be a fitting adition. Maybe Captain Atom if you take his strongest incarnation(but he's not in the league as of yet in his very powerful New-52 showing) or Kyle Rayner as Ion would be a strong addition.
It's really hard to contend with a bloodlusted Surfer. FTL reactions and absurd Power Cosmic bucketlist of abilities. Wally could lend speed to others to work at his reaction time and that'd stop Surfer from just deconstructing everyone at the atomic level as soon as round 2 starts. I think JL could put up a respectable fight in round 1 as you have it, with my additions putting them over the edge.
Someone made a great arguement for Aquaman a couple days back and I figured most people agreed with his assessment. I've also noticed people think Batman is almost = Doom with his prep. Thought it would be a good match on these forums.
Who would you switch them for to make it a more even match?
switch batman and aquaman for black adam and captain marvel , but team 2 is still going to lose, and no batman is not in Doom level of prep not even close
Depends: If Quasar will block Martian's TP, then Annihilators will win for sure. I don't see many of this people being able to take planet busting shots from BRB, Gladiator and Surfer. Similar with destroying Quasar's constructs - army made out of X-Men, FF and Avengers couldn't, so they won't do it too. At least not without bloodlust.
If Quasar won't block it, then Ronan will be controlled (IMO), Gladiator will fight, but he will be depowered for sure and Bill will be slowed down. In that case, everything will depend on Surfer. Is it possible for him to solo? I doubt it. Cap Atom by himself won't get down easily, similar with Martian. So, no in that case JLA should win, since Nova can be hold by WW and Hal should be able to hold Quasar, at least for few seconds.
Depends: If Quasar will block Martian's TP, then Annihilators will win for sure. I don't see many of this people being able to take planet busting shots from BRB, Gladiator and Surfer. Similar with destroying Quasar's constructs - army made out of X-Men, FF and Avengers couldn't, so they won't do it too. At least not without bloodlust. If Quasar won't block it, then Ronan will be controlled (IMO), Gladiator will fight, but he will be depowered for sure and Bill will be slowed down. In that case, everything will depend on Surfer. Is it possible for him to solo? I doubt it. Cap Atom by himself won't get down easily, similar with Martian. So, no in that case JLA should win, since Nova can be hold by WW and Hal should be able to hold Quasar, at least for few seconds.
@czarny_samael666 Martian Manhunter will find most TP resistance from BRB and Surfer and even some offensive TP from Surfer. Once he feels the TP offensive from Surfer, he will not be concentrating on Gladiator. And IIRC the last time someone tried to mess with Kallark's mind he snapped out of it and speed blitzed killed everyone in the room.
And hasn't Thanos beaten Surfer on the astral plane?
Round 2 : Annihilators , but Atom is the problem here.
A problem for the JLA or for the CA?
CA
How so?
I dunno...maybe becuz of his potential energy that can destroys the whole Universe. If he is allowed to tap into Quantum Field...oh, baby...
Interesting point. :) Thanks for your input! I know a little about Captain Atom, but not enough to counter your argument. If you're talking about Monarch then I'd ask you if he is considered as CA or is he Monarch? Two different characters I thought...
Since some changes have been made it's JLA FTW here in Round 2.
Superman>Gladiator though only just with more experience to boot.
Manhunter could TP Surfer into unconsciousness
Hal can hold off Quasar long enough for one of the Annihilators , most likely Ronan to go down.
Wonder Woman can keep up with BRB since he's a less held back and less of a jobber Thor in essence
Atom can probably KO Ronan and BA won't be willing to hold back at all against the Annihilators
1.Gladiator has better punching feats. 2.He can't Surfer is unbeatable in astral plane. And he was able psi-bolt whole Galador to calm them down. And Quasar's shields can stop everyone in JLA actually (depends on version of Cap Atom).
1. Such as? If you refer to the ones where he's shattered planets, Superman has those feats too.
2. How is Surfer unbeatable in the astral plane? Manhunter's telepathically thrust himself into the Spectre's mind when he possessed Hal Jordan and has far more versatile plus high level TP feats than Surfer. Just look at CitizenBane's respect thread for MM and you'll see what I'm talking about.
3. I think this is Pre New 52 Captain Atom based on the picture. And how strong are Quasar's shields?
Since some changes have been made it's JLA FTW here in Round 2.
Superman>Gladiator though only just with more experience to boot.
Manhunter could TP Surfer into unconsciousness
Hal can hold off Quasar long enough for one of the Annihilators , most likely Ronan to go down.
Wonder Woman can keep up with BRB since he's a less held back and less of a jobber Thor in essence
Atom can probably KO Ronan and BA won't be willing to hold back at all against the Annihilators
1.Gladiator has better punching feats. 2.He can't Surfer is unbeatable in astral plane. And he was able psi-bolt whole Galador to calm them down. And Quasar's shields can stop everyone in JLA actually (depends on version of Cap Atom).
1. Such as? If you refer to the ones where he's shattered planets, Superman has those feats too.
2. How is Surfer unbeatable in the astral plane? Manhunter's telepathically thrust himself into the Spectre's mind when he possessed Hal Jordan and has far more versatile plus high level TP feats than Surfer. Just look at CitizenBane's respect thread for MM and you'll see what I'm talking about.
3. I think this is Pre New 52 Captain Atom based on the picture. And how strong are Quasar's shields?
1.Then show them, but not ones in which he is saying he can do it, but actually doing it. 2.Doesn't matter how good Martian is, Surfer's power comes from Astral Plane: Surfer can't be defeated in Astral Plane p1Surfer can't be defeated in Astral Plane p2 3.I don't have his scans in my images now, but try to google Quasar shields. Two of his feats really matters: one against Avengers, X-Men and FF (he was holding Hulk, Hercules, Thor, Colossus, She-Hulk, Human Torch, Jean Grey, Wonder Man and others) and one agaisnt Imperial Guard (including Gladiator and Neutron).
Since some changes have been made it's JLA FTW here in Round 2.
Superman>Gladiator though only just with more experience to boot.
Manhunter could TP Surfer into unconsciousness
Hal can hold off Quasar long enough for one of the Annihilators , most likely Ronan to go down.
Wonder Woman can keep up with BRB since he's a less held back and less of a jobber Thor in essence
Atom can probably KO Ronan and BA won't be willing to hold back at all against the Annihilators
1.Gladiator has better punching feats. 2.He can't Surfer is unbeatable in astral plane. And he was able psi-bolt whole Galador to calm them down. And Quasar's shields can stop everyone in JLA actually (depends on version of Cap Atom).
1. Such as? If you refer to the ones where he's shattered planets, Superman has those feats too.
2. How is Surfer unbeatable in the astral plane? Manhunter's telepathically thrust himself into the Spectre's mind when he possessed Hal Jordan and has far more versatile plus high level TP feats than Surfer. Just look at CitizenBane's respect thread for MM and you'll see what I'm talking about.
3. I think this is Pre New 52 Captain Atom based on the picture. And how strong are Quasar's shields?
1.Then show them, but not ones in which he is saying he can do it, but actually doing it. 2.Doesn't matter how good Martian is, Surfer's power comes from Astral Plane: Surfer can't be defeated in Astral Plane p1Surfer can't be defeated in Astral Plane p23.I don't have his scans in my images now, but try to google Quasar shields. Two of his feats really matters: one against Avengers, X-Men and FF (he was holding Hulk, Hercules, Thor, Colossus, She-Hulk, Human Torch, Jean Grey, Wonder Man and others) and one agaisnt Imperial Guard (including Gladiator and Neutron).
1. And does Gladiator have non hyperbole ones? Besides it's not in Superman's nature to overplay his abilities unlike in DBZ where planet busting Kamehamehas turn out to be nowhere near that level. And he's actually moved planets to boot.
2. Impressive. But we don't know how he'd perform against a far more veteran telepath like MM whose telepathy feats are far more versatile and powerful than that one showing you've given me.
3. Found the first scan you were talking about and one against Galactus. Very impressive. But what are his speed feats like because Superman has micro second reaction times and is able to speed up his senses to match Flash's speed. He could attack Quasar before he knows what hits him.
@Lvenger: 1.If You have narrator's words - ok, no problem, since we have to belive narrators. But if only Superman was saying what he can or people who don't have any actual info how strong someone should be to destroy a planet. 2.Point is that in Astral Plane Surfer will not lose. Possibly, Martian will succesfully use persuasion on him, or other kind of telepathy. Possibly his psi-bolts as way of energy projection can hurt Surfer - IDK, since I don't Martian's feats of other kinds of telepathy. Generally, people belvie that there are only one-two kinds of TP, which is wrong. There are telepaths (sorry, I can't name out of hand) that are telepathic-vampires, others that uses persuasion, hypnosis or are just putting illusions into minds of their enemies. For example Mastermind and even strongest telepths can't defend themselves from his illusions. Maybe it is a way for Martian, but Surfer won't be mindr@ped or mind-controlled. I would rather belive that Despero could control him (but only if he would actually touch Surfer with his beam), than MM. 3.I haven't use Galactus one on purpose because I don't belive that Galan was using full (close to universal) power. Superman has even nanosecond reaction speed confirmed, similar like Gladiator, so I doubt that Superman will fight with Quasar. Out of morals - both will use nanosecond reaction speed on each other. In morals - none of them will use it. +Quasar did this in Thanos Imperative and of his drainning feats - it is his fauvorite tactic, so in character for him is using it agaisnt Superman and Hal Jordan: EDIT: And Quasar can also You use BFR tactic to Quantum Zone in which he commands whole zone full of quantum energy: Quasar taking Presence to Quantum Zone p1Quasar taking Presence to Quantum Zone p2 Quasar draining C.A. in nanosecond Quasar drainning Jack of Hearts
1. Hey you have the same problem as you've described seeing as you haven't shown me any planet busting feats for Gladiator.
2. Given that Manhunter's broken through the Spectre's TP defense with ease amongst other accomplished feats coupled with Silver Surfer's low showings on astral/mental feats, I think Manhunter will be able to harm and overpower Surfer on the mental plane too.
3. Finally something good evidence wise. Draining feats might work (can he do solar radiation) and BFR sounds plausible (though it doesn't count as a physical victory)
1. Hey you have the same problem as you've described seeing as you haven't shown me any planet busting feats for Gladiator.
2. Given that Manhunter's broken through the Spectre's TP defense with ease amongst other accomplished feats coupled with Silver Surfer's low showings on astral/mental feats, I think Manhunter will be able to harm and overpower Surfer on the mental plane too.
3. Finally something good evidence wise. Draining feats might work (can he do solar radiation) and BFR sounds plausible (though it doesn't count as a physical victory)
1. Gladiator vs. Hyperion part 2And he isn't the only planet buster in this team: Plus Nova survived Galactus Rage and Ronan's shields aren't easy to break too, while his matter manipulation will be a problem for JLA for sure: Ronan using molecular manipulation And his enemy above? She (yes, "She") was made by Celestials, she tought that they were her enemies, but they created her to store energy. And it was that woman who destroyed Black Galaxy creating new Celestial in the process. 2. He can't because Surfer can't be harmed there. 3.Yes, his only limitation is magic energy. He also punched Watcher with star's energy. He can also just BFR 5 memebers of JLA, allowing Annihilators to defeat last one. Then he can bring back one of them and repeat that tactic until all of them will be taken down.
@czarny_samael666: The only thing I can quibble with is 2. You still haven't shown that based on MM's feats, Surfer won't be overpowered. Surfer has never faced a telepath as powerful or versatile as MM. And Superman's busted one of Saturn's moons plus shown that he can knock Wonder Woman from the Sun to the Earth in less than 2 minutes which is how Lord timed the fight between Superman and Wonder Woman. So to say he's outclassed striking wise isn't apt I'm afraid. CA would win Round 1 though due to morals on and most of the team being concerned about the citizens than fighting the other team.
@czarny_samael666: The only thing I can quibble with is 2. You still haven't shown that based on MM's feats, Surfer won't be overpowered. Surfer has never faced a telepath as powerful or versatile as MM. And Superman's busted one of Saturn's moons plus shown that he can knock Wonder Woman from the Sun to the Earth in less than 2 minutes which is how Lord timed the fight between Superman and Wonder Woman. So to say he's outclassed striking wise isn't apt I'm afraid. CA would win Round 1 though due to morals on and most of the team being concerned about the citizens than fighting the other team.
1.These are narrator's words, not Gladiator's nor Hyperion's. Which moon? Punching from one place to other =/= planet busting. I know that that Superman destroyed object as big as our Moon (Dark Moon) and KOd himself, which means that he isn't much weaker striker than Gladiator/BRB, but he still is weaker and point is that Gladiator and Superman are very close to each other in almost all areas so this difference will give Gladiator win. Not easy won, not "fast" one, but it will. All besides Quasar's ability to take him out with energy draining. 2.No, You haven't shown a way in which Martian will be able to take out Surfer without using Astral Plane. 3.Out of morals it is even easier win for CA. Superman has weakness and Surfer has Cosmic Awareness, so he will deal with him in one move. Quasar and Hal will try to cover all their teammates with energy constructs. Wonder Woman and Superman are confirmed speedsters from JLA and Gladiator with Surfer are ones from CA. Supreman is going down by Surfer's attack (matter mainpulation/kryptonie/red sun radiation energy blast on planet level), than they go after Wonder Woman. All of it nanoseconds, so Gladiator and Surfer will fast be free and JLA will be taken from 2 speedsters. Next in reaction speed is Quasar with shields and Nova Prime + Martian Manhunter from JLA. But Martian isn't good enough to take this three people. Atom, Black Adam, Hal, Bill and Ronan are slower (even while all have some speed feats), so in second round it comes down to Surfer, Nova and Gladiator. Yet, Black Adam, Martian nor Atom can't survive with Black Hole in their chests, so they actually doesn't have a chance here. Plus Quasar will BFR each JLA member that is not taken out. Few scans, Surfer creating black hole, Nova Prime boosted with full Nova Force and showing how fast Novas (these are rookies!) can be. Whole fight took them 1.8 second.
1. Ha please. Superman's survived planet busting explosions so Gladiator's punches won't be anything new. And besides he's far more experienced with using his powers in addition to having several skills and abilities to boot. Like pressure point training from Batman, 1,000 years of combat experience with Wonder Woman, boxing from Wildcat and additional training from Mongul. On near equal to superior foes, Superman does pull out his combat abilities to edge the fight in his favour. Like he did with Mongul II, a near equal opponent and Commander Gor on New Krypton and Ultraman during Trinity, 2 equally powerful foes. Take that with his other feats and Superman can pull off a well hard fought win here. Plus Superman's power source, the Sun, is far more reliable to keep Superman going than Gladiator's psionic/confidence based source can. I do agree that Gladiator would be the fairest match up as a Marvel character to fight Superman but he doesn't have a greater than half chance of winning IMO.
2. Again you haven't shown it either. Surfer doesn't have any showings of say resisting mind domination, mental assaults, mind control or any other tactics MM could throw at Surfer. Someone who can effortlessly break through the Spectre's mental defenses is not someone who even the Surfer could resist.
A few other flaws. Surfer's cosmic awareness would only extend to knowledge in the Marvel universe of which the JLA are not a part of. The other 2 speedsters would be able to keep up with Gladiator no problem and Hal can set his ring to auto fire at any object moving faster than a set speed like Stewart did when Superman was mind controlled. So Hal can't move as fast but his ring can react fast enough for the other team. And Quasar's spped feats aren't on a par to the JLA to my knowledge so if they can move fast enough to take him down, Quasar's shields won't be standing up to any attacks. From there Superman takes down Gladiator, MM mentally overpowers Surfer, Wonder Woman engages Nova and Hal and Atom can double team BRB and Ronan respectively.
1.Surviving =/= not being KO Superman was KOd by collision of two planets and by destroying Dark Moon. When he survived such an explosion and wasn't KOd? Gladiator was best skilled warrior in his academy on his home planet. He also won a battle only thanks to fighting skills with his equal - Hyperion. Mongul II isn't impresive at all, atl east from what I've seen with him (vs. Hal, vs. rookie Hal & Pre-Blue Supe). Glaidator's confidence doesn't drop just like that and it won't during the fight with equal enemy. Again: Which of his enemies used planet level strength against him/which of them ever shown such a level of strength? 2.I have shown You that Surfer can't be hurt in Astral Plane. Now You have to show me, how in different way Martian can hurt him by TP. 3.It gives him knowledge about the place in which he is present. It was ever stated to have this limitation. If they would be placed in different universe/dimension, then he wouldn't have this knowledge, but they wouldn't be a part of this battle. Not too mention that it doesn't matter at all. When we're using IG in battles it doesn't lose just becasue battle take place in different universe. We assume that all of thier powers works in the same way. 4.Which other 2 speedsters? Surfer and Gladiator vs. WW and Superman - out of morals only ones that can achieve this level of speed (and this, giving huge benefit to WW, who doesn't have nanosecond reaction feats, based only on Bat's opinion). Surfer one-shots Superman and takes out Wonder Woman by Black Hole-move/tp psi-bolt or just hold her by energy shield to give Gladiator clear shot. 5.Hal would have to turn ring in this way and to do it he would have to react. Which bring us back to point in which Hal doesn't have nanosecond reaction speed. 6.Quasar reacted in nanosecond by creating shield that protected them from Lord MAr-Vell's attack. And You last sentence is just completly wrong. Gladiator > Superman, but Surfer one-shots Superman. Martian can't take out Surfer, but it doesn't matter since he isn't as fast as Surfer, so Surfer can take him out before Martian will try to attack. Surfer and Gladiator are actually only ones needed in battle without morals, becuase they have nanosecond reaction speed. BTW, You forgot about Nova. Nova Prime in full power is level above other people here. Similar with Post-A Surfer (one from pic).
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