#1 Posted by throughmyeyez (501 posts) - - Show Bio

Well, here we have it! Both beings are beyond even Galactus, like RKT. d:

Who wins!!!

#2 Posted by P0rtal (872 posts) - - Show Bio

Mandrakk. He pushed back the entire might of a multiverse of Superman(s) and is already proven to be one of DCs most serious threats. He can wipe out universes with ease, as his bio states.

#3 Posted by Sethlol (1296 posts) - - Show Bio

@P0rtal said:

Mandrakk. He pushed back the entire might of a multiverse of Superman(s) and is already proven to be one of DCs most serious threats. He can wipe out universes with ease, as his bio states.

How is Mandrakk in the battle?

Asides from that, going with CA Superman.

#4 Posted by beautifulrevery (1507 posts) - - Show Bio

WPotC takes this. 100% of the PF, access to the White Hot Room? The ability to burn away entire timelines of the multiverse? AND recreate them? Phoenix has got this

#5 Posted by Laurcus (1299 posts) - - Show Bio

The Thought Robot takes this. Don't really see how it couldn't.

#6 Posted by matmatxm8 (587 posts) - - Show Bio

Cosmic armor superman has my vote, he's far powerful than superman prime 1 million who is just a match with white phoenix

#7 Posted by P0rtal (872 posts) - - Show Bio

Gosh that was a drunken post, sorry. I meant CA Superman BECAUSE of what Mandrakk is capable of.

#8 Posted by throughmyeyez (501 posts) - - Show Bio

Phoenix for the win!

#9 Posted by justleader (1708 posts) - - Show Bio

CA Superman

#10 Posted by logy5000 (5733 posts) - - Show Bio

You sure do like Rune King Thor.

Anyway Superman wins.

#11 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

PotWC erases him from the White Hot Room. He cant even reach her there.

#12 Posted by throughmyeyez (501 posts) - - Show Bio

@logy5000 said:

You sure do like Rune King Thor.

Anyway Superman wins.

rofl so!

#13 Posted by ssejllenrad (12847 posts) - - Show Bio

I might be the only Superman fan that would say Phoenix. Yes. I said it. WPOTC. Both are beyond the multiverse. But whereas Superman Thoughtbot has only shown feats that are similar to his "normal" self, albeit on a extra-multiversal scale, her hasn't really shown other powers. WPOTC on the other hand, demonstrated reality manipulation.

If you're a Superman fanboy that can refute me, please do? The fact that I'm siding with Phoenix in this battle eats me up! Arrrrrgggghhhhhh!!!!!!

#14 Posted by throughmyeyez (501 posts) - - Show Bio

Phoenix, with the ability to control matter, should be more than enough of a match for Cosmic Armour Superman. Although, it's hard to say, as both beings are of the multiverse level.

#15 Posted by logy5000 (5733 posts) - - Show Bio

@throughmyeyez said:

@logy5000 said:

You sure do like Rune King Thor.

Anyway Superman wins.

rofl so!

How old are you? That's kind of a childish response.

#16 Edited by throughmyeyez (501 posts) - - Show Bio

@logy5000 said:

@throughmyeyez said:

@logy5000 said:

You sure do like Rune King Thor.

Anyway Superman wins.

rofl so!

How old are you? That's kind of a childish response.

People do childish things all the time. If I were to continue my adult-like actions, and way of thinking, after my responsibilities have been fulfilled through every-day life, I would indeed be a serious individual. Regardless, you're more than welcome to maintain this way of thinking, even after you've done what you think makes you an "adult". Also, I'm 22 years old, and won't stop the partying, or wild life until I'm older. If you have a problem with that, take it somewhere else.

#17 Posted by Sniber (317 posts) - - Show Bio

@matmatxm8 said:

Cosmic armor superman has my vote, he's far powerful than superman prime 1 million who is just a match with white phoenix

wpotc > superman prime > ca supes

#18 Posted by Jayfournines (4024 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sniber said:

@matmatxm8 said:

Cosmic armor superman has my vote, he's far powerful than superman prime 1 million who is just a match with white phoenix

wpotc > superman prime > ca supes

not really, not even, Superman Prime is LEAGUES below the Thought Robot. Thought Robot is a multiversal entity IIRC

#19 Posted by Bo88gdan (4397 posts) - - Show Bio

Phoenix of the White Crown

#20 Posted by matmatxm8 (587 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sniber said:

@matmatxm8 said:

Cosmic armor superman has my vote, he's far powerful than superman prime 1 million who is just a match with white phoenix

wpotc > superman prime > ca supes

Cosmic armor superman>Mandrakk (dark monitor) > Anti-monitor > fully fed Galactus = White crown birdie bird

#21 Posted by Sniber (317 posts) - - Show Bio

@matmatxm8 said:

@Sniber said:

@matmatxm8 said:

Cosmic armor superman has my vote, he's far powerful than superman prime 1 million who is just a match with white phoenix

wpotc > superman prime > ca supes

Cosmic armor superman>Mandrakk (dark monitor) > Anti-monitor > fully fed Galactus = White crown birdie bird

dark phoenix > galactus. no matter if galactus is fully fed, he still have limited power. dark phoenix have unlimited power.

and wpotc >>>>>>>>>>>> dark phoenix. even if you combine all characters you have listed(except wpotc) still wpotc can beat them all.

wpotc >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any superman

#22 Posted by matmatxm8 (587 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sniber said:

@matmatxm8 said:

@Sniber said:

@matmatxm8 said:

Cosmic armor superman has my vote, he's far powerful than superman prime 1 million who is just a match with white phoenix

wpotc > superman prime > ca supes

Cosmic armor superman>Mandrakk (dark monitor) > Anti-monitor > fully fed Galactus = White crown birdie bird

dark phoenix > galactus. no matter if galactus is fully fed, he still have limited power. dark phoenix have unlimited power.

and wpotc >>>>>>>>>>>> dark phoenix. even if you combine all characters you have listed(except wpotc) still wpotc can beat them all.

wpotc >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any superman

are you high?

Since when did dark phoenix top-notched Galactus?

anyway Cosmic Armor superman is stronger than your white bird since he defeated a multiversal threat and the strongest kind of monitor.

Now enjoy :-)

#23 Edited by LordOfAllHumans (4034 posts) - - Show Bio

@matmatxm8 said:

@Sniber said:

@matmatxm8 said:

@Sniber said:

@matmatxm8 said:

Cosmic armor superman has my vote, he's far powerful than superman prime 1 million who is just a match with white phoenix

wpotc > superman prime > ca supes

Cosmic armor superman>Mandrakk (dark monitor) > Anti-monitor > fully fed Galactus = White crown birdie bird

dark phoenix > galactus. no matter if galactus is fully fed, he still have limited power. dark phoenix have unlimited power.

and wpotc >>>>>>>>>>>> dark phoenix. even if you combine all characters you have listed(except wpotc) still wpotc can beat them all.

wpotc >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any superman

are you high?

Since when did dark phoenix top-notched Galactus?

anyway Cosmic Armor superman is stronger than your white bird since he defeated a multiversal threat and the strongest kind of monitor.

Now enjoy :-)

Since only half of the Phoenix that became Dark Phoenix beat him nearly to death, and Eternity telling Jean Grey that all abstract beings were afraid when she became Phoenix.

This is the only scan anybody uses to say this version of Superman wins, what exactly is he doing in this scan that makes him above her?

#24 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (16834 posts) - - Show Bio

Quite hard, but Going with CA superman. Not because I like superman, he Gives me a better impression of power here..

Online
#25 Posted by Sniber (317 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@matmatxm8 said:

@Sniber said:

@matmatxm8 said:

@Sniber said:

@matmatxm8 said:

Cosmic armor superman has my vote, he's far powerful than superman prime 1 million who is just a match with white phoenix

wpotc > superman prime > ca supes

Cosmic armor superman>Mandrakk (dark monitor) > Anti-monitor > fully fed Galactus = White crown birdie bird

dark phoenix > galactus. no matter if galactus is fully fed, he still have limited power. dark phoenix have unlimited power.

and wpotc >>>>>>>>>>>> dark phoenix. even if you combine all characters you have listed(except wpotc) still wpotc can beat them all.

wpotc >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any superman

are you high?

Since when did dark phoenix top-notched Galactus?

anyway Cosmic Armor superman is stronger than your white bird since he defeated a multiversal threat and the strongest kind of monitor.

Now enjoy :-)

Since only half of the Phoenix that became Dark Phoenix beat him nearly to death, and Eternity telling Jean Grey that all abstract beings were afraid when she became Phoenix.

This is the only scan anybody uses to say this version of Superman wins, what exactly is he doing in this scan that makes him above her?

agreed. infact I was going to post the similar comment. matmatxm8 don't know that wpotc is multiversal. and dark phoenix have defeated galactus

#26 Posted by Killemall (18559 posts) - - Show Bio

Where is the whole talk about White Phoenix being multiversal coming from? She certainly did not have any multiversal feat or even close during X-men: Here Comes Tomorrow and i do not think White Phoenix has actually appeared anywhere else to significantly perform a feat.

Healing a universe really doesnt translate to a multiversal power level.

Also Dark Phoenix > a fully fed Galactus is a pure myth.

#27 Posted by terry2012 (5101 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall: Thanks for clearing that up for me. Whom is you choosing here?

#28 Posted by Killemall (18559 posts) - - Show Bio

@terry2012: They both have limited feats as they both appeared only in 1 story arc X-men: Here Comes Tomorrow for white Phoenix and Final Crisis: Superman Beyond for Cosmic Armor. However, at least Cosmic Armor fought and beat a being who is multiversal in powerlevel. I am going with Superman because he has better feat,and he is the only one of the two who actually has a fighting feat.

#29 Posted by terry2012 (5101 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall: OKay, Thanks. Do you have scans of the fight?

#30 Posted by Killemall (18559 posts) - - Show Bio

@terry2012 said:

@Killemall: OKay, Thanks. Do you have scans of the fight?

Yes but it might be a little hard to read. The issue was in 3D.

Anyhow here are the relevant scans of the fight:

#31 Posted by terry2012 (5101 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall: Thanks.

#32 Edited by LordOfAllHumans (4034 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

Where is the whole talk about White Phoenix being multiversal coming from? She certainly did not have any multiversal feat or even close during X-men: Here Comes Tomorrow and i do not think White Phoenix has actually appeared anywhere else to significantly perform a feat.

Healing a universe really doesnt translate to a multiversal power level.

Also Dark Phoenix > a fully fed Galactus is a pure myth.

White Phoenix is regarded as multiversal because there is a Phoenix in every universe and she controls them all, in the What If when Vulcan takes all the power from all Phoenix avatars it was White Phoenix controlling him from the nexus of all realities making that a canon feat for White Phoenix. The Phoenix force that Feron wielded has an omniversal feat and is only the Phoenix from 616, LT has said that single a Phoenix from an alternate universe is a threat to the multiverse, canon for him and as stated before White Phoenix is more powerful than all single Phoenixes. Green Phoenix had power enough to contain the multiversal M'Kraan crystal.

Her feat was more complicated than just healing a universe, she amputated and discarded the future of one, which was HCT, which wounded the megasystem, because there was no more future, making it necessary to heal 616 by pushing Scott, and there is the whole fact that she did this by manipulating every atom of the universe at once.

Please disprove the myth then, he was fully fed when he came after Rachel the first time with just a fraction of the Phoenix and she surrendered to him, nothing happened to actually test their powers against one another, except he tried to remove the force from it's chosen vessel and was told it was impossible, and merely attempting it was killing the universe, however when he was about to snack on a planet it was quite clear that his power is based on reserves that will be depleted, while hers only grow stronger, by his own words and this is a Phoenix that was stated too many times on panel to not be on par with a Jean Grey Manifestation (Dark Phoenix)

White Phoenix can simply remove his timeline and re-write it anyway she pleases or discard it, thus ending him if she so desires.

#33 Posted by Killemall (18559 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans said:

White Phoenix is regarded as multiversal because there is a Phoenix in every universe and she controls them all, in the What If when Vulcan takes all the power from all Phoenix avatars it was White Phoenix controlling him from the nexus of all realities making that a canon feat for White Phoenix. The Phoenix force that Feron wielded has an omniversal feat and is only the Phoenix from 616, LT has said that single a Phoenix from an alternate universe is a threat to the multiverse, canon for him and as stated before White Phoenix is more powerful than all single Phoenixes. Green Phoenix had power enough to contain the multiversal M'Kraan crystal.

I understand, just because she controls various version of Phoenix doesnt automatically make her at multiversal level. Thats rather different.

Now rest seem more like theories, i gotta be honest with you, the underlined issue i have not read. The M'Kraan Crystal feat she had help and its a multiversal nexus containing it isnt as high end a feat, as say taking a full blunt of its explosion would be. But thats different

Her feat was more complicated than just healing a universe, she amputated and discarded the future of one, which was HCT, which wounded the megasystem, because there was no more future, making it necessary to heal 616 by pushing Scott, and there is the whole fact that she did this by manipulating every atom of the universe at once.

How does that make it any greater than a universal feat?

Please disprove the myth then, he was fully fed when he came after Rachel the first time with just a fraction of the Phoenix and she surrendered to him, nothing happened to actually test their powers against one another, except he tried to remove the force from it's chosen vessel and was told it was impossible, and merely attempting it was killing the universe, however when he was about to snack on a planet it was quite clear that his power is based on reserves that will be depleted, while hers only grow stronger, by his own words and this is a Phoenix that was stated too many times on panel to not be on par with a Jean Grey Manifestation (Dark Phoenix)

Galactus has never been fully fed in 616. The closest we can get is The Black Celestial Arc where he was more powerful than all the abstracts combined, and was a genuine threat to the multiverse. There is no way Dark Phoenix would be comparable to him in that power level.

Not to mention while Phoenix power level has gone down a notch or two, as evidence by AvX, Galactus in his fight with Scarier and The Other nearly destroyed the multiverse as a side effect of his fight.

White Phoenix can simply remove his timeline and re-write it anyway she pleases or discard it, thus ending him if she so desires.

Based on. Who has she erased from a time line in a straight up fight? Not to mention we are talking about a suit of armor made to adapt to anything. Also he fights and beats Mandraxx a cosmic vampire of multiversal order.

Hyperbole wise: an undefeatable armor capable of adapting to anything

Feat wise: an armor that took on and defeated a genuinely multiverse threat.

I still dont see how you can say Phoenix is superior .

#34 Posted by ComocYahweh (661 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@Killemall said:

Where is the whole talk about White Phoenix being multiversal coming from? She certainly did not have any multiversal feat or even close during X-men: Here Comes Tomorrow and i do not think White Phoenix has actually appeared anywhere else to significantly perform a feat.

Healing a universe really doesnt translate to a multiversal power level.

Also Dark Phoenix > a fully fed Galactus is a pure myth.

White Phoenix is regarded as multiversal because there is a Phoenix in every universe and she controls them all, in the What If when Vulcan takes all the power from all Phoenix avatars it was White Phoenix controlling him from the nexus of all realities making that a canon feat for White Phoenix. The Phoenix force that Feron wielded has an omniversal feat and is only the Phoenix from 616, LT has said that single a Phoenix from an alternate universe is a threat to the multiverse, canon for him and as stated before White Phoenix is more powerful than all single Phoenixes. Green Phoenix had power enough to contain the multiversal M'Kraan crystal.

Her feat was more complicated than just healing a universe, she amputated and discarded the future of one, which was HCT, which wounded the megasystem, because there was no more future, making it necessary to heal 616 by pushing Scott, and there is the whole fact that she did this by manipulating every atom of the universe at once.

Please disprove the myth then, he was fully fed when he came after Rachel the first time with just a fraction of the Phoenix and she surrendered to him, nothing happened to actually test their powers against one another, except he tried to remove the force from it's chosen vessel and was told it was impossible, and merely attempting it was killing the universe, however when he was about to snack on a planet it was quite clear that his power is based on reserves that will be depleted, while hers only grow stronger, by his own words and this is a Phoenix that was stated too many times on panel to not be on par with a Jean Grey Manifestation (Dark Phoenix)

White Phoenix can simply remove his timeline and re-write it anyway she pleases or discard it, thus ending him if she so desires.

You do realize that CA sups isn't even inside the Multiverse, he is much bigger than the entire multiverse. He could stomp and destroy the multiverse.

#35 Edited by matmatxm8 (587 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sniber said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@matmatxm8 said:

@Sniber said:

@matmatxm8 said:

@Sniber said:

@matmatxm8 said:

Cosmic armor superman has my vote, he's far powerful than superman prime 1 million who is just a match with white phoenix

wpotc > superman prime > ca supes

Cosmic armor superman>Mandrakk (dark monitor) > Anti-monitor > fully fed Galactus = White crown birdie bird

dark phoenix > galactus. no matter if galactus is fully fed, he still have limited power. dark phoenix have unlimited power.

and wpotc >>>>>>>>>>>> dark phoenix. even if you combine all characters you have listed(except wpotc) still wpotc can beat them all.

wpotc >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any superman

are you high?

Since when did dark phoenix top-notched Galactus?

anyway Cosmic Armor superman is stronger than your white bird since he defeated a multiversal threat and the strongest kind of monitor.

Now enjoy :-)

Since only half of the Phoenix that became Dark Phoenix beat him nearly to death, and Eternity telling Jean Grey that all abstract beings were afraid when she became Phoenix.

This is the only scan anybody uses to say this version of Superman wins, what exactly is he doing in this scan that makes him above her?

agreed. infact I was going to post the similar comment. matmatxm8 don't know that wpotc is multiversal. and dark phoenix have defeated galactus

Because CA superman is a cosmic being and he has beaten Mandrakk which is stronger than Anti-monitor

and Anti-monitor is just equal or even better than a fully fed Galactus.

and I know that White Phoenix is multiversal threat, but he's just equal to a fully fed galactus

now let me repeat the logical reasoning.

Cosmic Armor Superman > Mandrakk > Anti-monitor > Imperiex > fully fed Galactus = White Phoenix

and to give you a clear and bold message

Cosmic Being > Abstract Being

#36 Edited by LordOfAllHumans (4034 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

White Phoenix is regarded as multiversal because there is a Phoenix in every universe and she controls them all, in the What If when Vulcan takes all the power from all Phoenix avatars it was White Phoenix controlling him from the nexus of all realities making that a canon feat for White Phoenix. The Phoenix force that Feron wielded has an omniversal feat and is only the Phoenix from 616, LT has said that single a Phoenix from an alternate universe is a threat to the multiverse, canon for him and as stated before White Phoenix is more powerful than all single Phoenixes. Green Phoenix had power enough to contain the multiversal M'Kraan crystal.

I understand, just because she controls various version of Phoenix doesnt automatically make her at multiversal level. Thats rather different.

Now rest seem more like theories, i gotta be honest with you, the underlined issue i have not read. The M'Kraan Crystal feat she had help and its a multiversal nexus containing it isnt as high end a feat, as say taking a full blunt of its explosion would be. But thats different

Her feat was more complicated than just healing a universe, she amputated and discarded the future of one, which was HCT, which wounded the megasystem, because there was no more future, making it necessary to heal 616 by pushing Scott, and there is the whole fact that she did this by manipulating every atom of the universe at once.

How does that make it any greater than a universal feat?

Please disprove the myth then, he was fully fed when he came after Rachel the first time with just a fraction of the Phoenix and she surrendered to him, nothing happened to actually test their powers against one another, except he tried to remove the force from it's chosen vessel and was told it was impossible, and merely attempting it was killing the universe, however when he was about to snack on a planet it was quite clear that his power is based on reserves that will be depleted, while hers only grow stronger, by his own words and this is a Phoenix that was stated too many times on panel to not be on par with a Jean Grey Manifestation (Dark Phoenix)

Galactus has never been fully fed in 616. The closest we can get is The Black Celestial Arc where he was more powerful than all the abstracts combined, and was a genuine threat to the multiverse. There is no way Dark Phoenix would be comparable to him in that power level.

Not to mention while Phoenix power level has gone down a notch or two, as evidence by AvX, Galactus in his fight with Scarier and The Other nearly destroyed the multiverse as a side effect of his fight.

White Phoenix can simply remove his timeline and re-write it anyway she pleases or discard it, thus ending him if she so desires.

Based on. Who has she erased from a time line in a straight up fight? Not to mention we are talking about a suit of armor made to adapt to anything. Also he fights and beats Mandraxx a cosmic vampire of multiversal order.

Hyperbole wise: an undefeatable armor capable of adapting to anything

Feat wise: an armor that took on and defeated a genuinely multiverse threat.

I still dont see how you can say Phoenix is superior .

1. it does make her multiversal, because each one of those Phoenixes have a piece of the whole, that manifest in a universe, multiversal means multiple universes, she controls all Phoenix in every universe from the nexus of all creation and is a singular being in all those realities thus making her multiversal. Very much like Multi-Eternity being the culmination of all Eternity's.

2. nothing is theory they are all on panel, if you don't know about them find out, but don't dismiss them simply because you don't know about them

3.I was not translating it to a multiversal feat only correcting your post that make it look like a simple healing, when it was much more than that. It also involved two universes (making it multi) and wounded the megasystem making it beyond universal.

4.The definition of a fully fed Galactus is a Galactus that has just fed and is in the state before his hunger strikes again, this Galactus ate a world thus sating his hunger, to prep for Rachel.

5. Phoenix from AVX has never been stated to be the whole of the Phoenix, because there is one in every universe and even that one can split, nor has the fact that it was shattered into a billion pieces ever been resolved. There was a Phoenix that was supposed to come to Earth and split itself into five, oddly enough there were 5 pieces of the Phoenix removed by Jean from Korvus, Rachel, and 3 Cuckoos, and the Phoenix that first encountered that Nova was blue.

6.Because in an instant she can absorb things into her realm and control them atom by atom to decided their fate. Regardless of his stats or the stats of his opponent their fight was purely physical, White Phoenix transcends that and we've have seen too many times that pure fighting and throwing energy blasts at the Phoenix is not the way to defeat it ever, unless the consciousness has other plans. So what makes him superior when he can touch her?

@ComocYahweh said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@Killemall said:

Where is the whole talk about White Phoenix being multiversal coming from? She certainly did not have any multiversal feat or even close during X-men: Here Comes Tomorrow and i do not think White Phoenix has actually appeared anywhere else to significantly perform a feat.

Healing a universe really doesnt translate to a multiversal power level.

Also Dark Phoenix > a fully fed Galactus is a pure myth.

White Phoenix is regarded as multiversal because there is a Phoenix in every universe and she controls them all, in the What If when Vulcan takes all the power from all Phoenix avatars it was White Phoenix controlling him from the nexus of all realities making that a canon feat for White Phoenix. The Phoenix force that Feron wielded has an omniversal feat and is only the Phoenix from 616, LT has said that single a Phoenix from an alternate universe is a threat to the multiverse, canon for him and as stated before White Phoenix is more powerful than all single Phoenixes. Green Phoenix had power enough to contain the multiversal M'Kraan crystal.

Her feat was more complicated than just healing a universe, she amputated and discarded the future of one, which was HCT, which wounded the megasystem, because there was no more future, making it necessary to heal 616 by pushing Scott, and there is the whole fact that she did this by manipulating every atom of the universe at once.

Please disprove the myth then, he was fully fed when he came after Rachel the first time with just a fraction of the Phoenix and she surrendered to him, nothing happened to actually test their powers against one another, except he tried to remove the force from it's chosen vessel and was told it was impossible, and merely attempting it was killing the universe, however when he was about to snack on a planet it was quite clear that his power is based on reserves that will be depleted, while hers only grow stronger, by his own words and this is a Phoenix that was stated too many times on panel to not be on par with a Jean Grey Manifestation (Dark Phoenix)

White Phoenix can simply remove his timeline and re-write it anyway she pleases or discard it, thus ending him if she so desires.

You do realize that CA sups isn't even inside the Multiverse, he is much bigger than the entire multiverse. He could stomp and destroy the multiverse.

You do realize that neither is White Phoenix? She is beyond all space time and reality.

@matmatxm8 said:

@Sniber said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@matmatxm8 said:

@Sniber said:

@matmatxm8 said:

@Sniber said:

@matmatxm8 said:

Cosmic armor superman has my vote, he's far powerful than superman prime 1 million who is just a match with white phoenix

wpotc > superman prime > ca supes

Cosmic armor superman>Mandrakk (dark monitor) > Anti-monitor > fully fed Galactus = White crown birdie bird

dark phoenix > galactus. no matter if galactus is fully fed, he still have limited power. dark phoenix have unlimited power.

and wpotc >>>>>>>>>>>> dark phoenix. even if you combine all characters you have listed(except wpotc) still wpotc can beat them all.

wpotc >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any superman

are you high?

Since when did dark phoenix top-notched Galactus?

anyway Cosmic Armor superman is stronger than your white bird since he defeated a multiversal threat and the strongest kind of monitor.

Now enjoy :-)

Since only half of the Phoenix that became Dark Phoenix beat him nearly to death, and Eternity telling Jean Grey that all abstract beings were afraid when she became Phoenix.

This is the only scan anybody uses to say this version of Superman wins, what exactly is he doing in this scan that makes him above her?

agreed. infact I was going to post the similar comment. matmatxm8 don't know that wpotc is multiversal. and dark phoenix have defeated galactus

Because CA superman is a cosmic being and he has beaten Mandrakk which is stronger than Anti-monitor

and Anti-monitor is just equal or even better than a fully fed Galactus.

and I know that White Phoenix is multiversal threat, but he's just equal to a fully fed galactus

now let me repeat the logical reasoning.

Cosmic Armor Superman > Mandrakk > Anti-monitor > Imperiex > fully fed Galactus = White Phoenix

and to give you a clear and bold message

Cosmic Being > Abstract Being

The Phoenix is not an abstract or a being for that matter, it gets it's form by taking on hosts, it's native state is just a force of nature pure creation and destruction so to give you a clear and bold message. There is no logical reasoning when some will argue that there is no such thing as a fully fed Galactus and what others consider a fully fed Galactus is just one that has eaten a planet, and that is not even on par with 1/2 of Dark Phoenix let alone White Phoenix. He's not in her league even by position she trumps him, he devours worlds, she judges universes and timelines, and he was even afraid that left unchecked she would devour the cosmos.

Creation/Destruction incarnate that scared all abstracts per Eternity >>>>> than cosmic and abstract beings.

#37 Posted by Killemall (18559 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans said:

1. it does make her multiversal, because each one of those Phoenixes have a piece of the whole, that manifest in a universe, multiversal means multiple universes, she controls all Phoenix in every universe from the nexus of all creation and is a singular being in all those realities thus making her multiversal. Very much like Multi-Eternity being the culmination of all Eternity's.

I suppose its a difference in opinion. A football captain control 10 players in a football field. Does that makes him as powerful as 10 men? So unless you are saying she somehow gets the various Phoenix's from various avatar to fight this battle, i do not see how she can be considered multiversal.

2. nothing is theory they are all on panel, if you don't know about them find out, but don't dismiss them simply because you don't know about them

All i said was i was and still am unaware of the Feron feat, i did not discredit it, i didnt say it was wrong, just said i am unaware of this feat thats all.

Using the containment of M'kraan Crystal to suggest she was multiversal does seem like a theory. That certainly doesnt translate into being a multiversal feat.

3.I was not translating it to a multiversal feat only correcting your post that make it look like a simple healing, when it was much more than that. It also involved two universes (making it multi) and wounded the megasystem making it beyond universal.

How exactly where there 2 universe involved. She healed a collapsing universe, but changing it. Not sure where beyond universal is coming from.

4.The definition of a fully fed Galactus is a Galactus that has just fed and is in the state before his hunger strikes again, this Galactus ate a world thus sating his hunger, to prep for Rachel.

Could you quote me a issue number, a scan, or a bio that says Fully Fed Galactus is a Galactus that just fed on a planet? If so what would you call a Galactus that just fed on 4 planets at a go to face Celestials?

I do not remember there ever been a statement about fully fed Galactus. Resonable to assume it would mean Galactus feeding on as much as he can. He has never shown an upper limit, and the best we have is MC2 Galactus nearly eating the entire universe, so where exactly is your definition coming from?

5. Phoenix from AVX has never been stated to be the whole of the Phoenix, because there is one in every universe and even that one can split, nor has the fact that it was shattered into a billion pieces ever been resolved. There was a Phoenix that was supposed to come to Earth and split itself into five, oddly enough there were 5 pieces of the Phoenix removed by Jean from Korvus, Rachel, and 3 Cuckoos, and the Phoenix that first encountered that Nova was blue.

Well Tom Breevroot seem to think it was the whole Phoenix, never was it one stated it was a fragement of the Phoenix force. Not to mention the fire bird has always been indication of the entire phoenix force. Apart from on in Ultimate Universe and One in 616, making it perfectly clear than they are not related, phoenix for 616 is the firebird. Its the same thing that came to Earth. We seem see an avatar transcend into White Phoenix, for a short time during AvX at Kaulong (or however you spell that, the karate place :p ). we also see Hope accept the phoenix as white phoenix for a short time. Certainly implies it was the whole Phoenix as opposed to a fragment.

6.Because in an instant she can absorb things into her realm and control them atom by atom to decided their fate. Regardless of his stats or the stats of his opponent their fight was purely physical, White Phoenix transcends that and we've have seen too many times that pure fighting and throwing energy blasts at the Phoenix is not the way to defeat it ever, unless the consciousness has other plans. So what makes him superior when he can touch her?

Firstly, Phoenix has been defeated by purely physical means. Tony Shark shattered in into 5 peices, Shiar canon shattered it into billion peices. Avatars have also been vulnerable to physical attack, albiet to a higher degree. Wolverine repeatedly stabbed Emma to weaken the Phoenix during Endsong. Xron killed Jean as Phoenix. Wolverine also killed Jean as a Phoenix, but then she wanted to die. So i do not understand where that is coming from.

And are we ignoring Mandrax could do the same thing. He is a cosmic vampire of multiversal Order who feed upon an entire universe yet he lost. If we are going to hang onto saying Phoenix can erase his timeline (although she will have to find out about the time line of Superman someone she has never met, through a kick ass robot) there is nothing that implies she could bypass the "evolve to any threat".

He has better fighting feats, after all cosmic armor superman fought a multiversal being (well 52 universe at least) and beat him, showing he is superior.

#38 Edited by Sniber (317 posts) - - Show Bio

@matmatxm8: you are wrong. WPOTC(unlimited powers) >Dark phoenix(unlimited powers)>>>>>>infinite times>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fully fed galactus(limited powers)

and you are only telling feats like supes defeated so and so. how can you say that those monitor or mandrak or.... whatever else are on phoenix levels.

Phoenix once holded a universe in her palms.and healed it. Does supes has any feats like that? or has he ever destroyed a universe or galaxy?

and wpotc = phoenix force (a multiversal cosmic entity) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cosmic being.

#39 Edited by Killemall (18559 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sniber said:

@matmatxm8: you are wrong. WPOTC(unlimited powers) >Dark phoenix(unlimited powers)>>>>>>infinite times>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fully fed galactus(limited powers)

That is not correct. The only time Galactus has actually been beaten by Phoenix avatar was when Galactus fought Rachel. It was against a starving Galactus, and Rachel while physically beat the starving Galactus, Galactus manage to mentally screw with her. Using that to say Phoenix > Galactus seems foolhardy.

Also what do you actually mean by unlimited powers, that Phoenix Avatar does not need to replinish his powers in a fight. Silver Surfer has the same thing going for him, would you consider him above Galactus.

Also that was Rachel fully bonded to phoenix force, here's Phoenix telling Rachel all i have become you are too, i take that to intrepret she was at the least just as powerful as Jean Grey, so a decently powerful phoenix avatar (Still weaker than WPOC) defeated Galactus who was starving physically but Galactus beat her in a mental duel, doesnot at least to me, imply that she is infinitely more powerful than a Galactus when he is fully fed, or even normally fed for that matter.

Here's the relevant scan

and you are only telling feats like supes defeated so and so. how can you say that those monitor or mandrak or.... whatever else are on phoenix levels.

Phoenix once holded a universe in her palms.and healed it. Does supes has any feats like that? or has he ever destroyed a universe or galaxy?

Actually quite the contrary, that feat is generally overplayed. I have debated with you a couple of times and you seem like a very reasonable guy so i will try and give you some facts, lets see if i can change your mind about it. Feel free to agree or disagree.

Holding universe in her hands, few small facts:

1. She never actually held 616 universe but rather a baby universe on her hand, reality 15104.

2. Reality 15104 was a baby universe , only 150 years old as opposed to 616 which have been said to be billion of years old.

3. What Phoenix actually did in the scan was prevent the reality from collapsing, good feat indeed, then time travelled in the past and made Cyclops do something that prevented the creating of that universe altogether, i..e Made Cyclops re-open Xavier institute.

Rather than taking my words for it, here's the bio that explains the same thing, hope this helps.

This feat is downplayed by the fact that Utau, the watcher did exactly the same thing during Marvel 1602 story arc, to an alternate reality Earth 311. That was a past version of 616 universe, while that Phoenix did was the future version of 616. Both baby universe and both comparable feats. (I dont have the scan with atm, although story arc should suffice, but if you are interested give me few days and i can get the scan for you, because i have to look for the series)

Dont get me wrong i am not trying to downplay her feat its still good but that doesnt necessarily put her above Galactus himself let alone Mandraxx, a cosmic vampire capable of pushing back the multiverse in Final Crisis: Superman Beyonde, someone Superman beat in his own realm.

Hope this helps.

I dont know why Phoenix force gets so over-rated in comicvine when it has little feats. 6 months ago i though Phoenix Force was like LT level, after reading relevant issues and scans and details from MR Masters (KMC cosmic expert) i have changed my mind.

#40 Posted by Sniber (317 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall: I know that it was baby universe. but phoenix holded it effortlessly. she can do the same with other universes also.

about galactus vs phoenix, though surfer has unlimited powers still his powers are way weaker than galactus. they are not on galactus level. I mean to say that though surfer has more amount of power than galactus but galactus is the one who give him that power thus its natural that even if galactus has limited amount of power stilll he is beyond surfer's power. I hope you are understanding my point. In simple words galactus has stronger type of power hence amount of power does not matter. But phoenix's power are greater in amount as well as in level hence she is far beyond galactus.

and phoenix is prime force of life and death. she can remove antimoniter and mandrak completely out of existence(if they are living things).

though LT > phoenix still its not true that he is way beyond her. there powers differs by a narrow margin. she is on same level as LT.

and do supes have any feat except defeating those guys. I want feats like destroying or reforming any galaxy or universe or something like that. I don 't want fighting feats.

#41 Posted by Killemall (18559 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sniber said:

@Killemall: I know that it was baby universe. but phoenix holded it effortlessly. she can do the same with other universes also.

Yes it is , but the point was baby universe was so small (well not like a house or a city) but small enough for Watcher (being that have been killed by Celestial, who in turns are weaker than Galactus, sorry have to use ABC logic here which i normally try to avoid it). Also her feats are hardly universal.

Lets try to expand on this hopefully try and put more details and maybe i can change your mind. Before reading this, please do not think i am accusing you of being wrong or a fanboy, i am just trying to see if i can get you to think the way i see things. I will post scans, bios and my interpretation its up to you to decide how impressive it is, sounds fair?

Lets start (Please do understand i am not saying White Phoenix is not powerful at all but her power are being greatly exaggerated here).

Firstly, the reality Jean affected wasnt 616 but a future counter part of it reality 15104, and the reality was created because Scott at one time in his past, decided to not go with Emma and X-men but rather stay with Jean. I showed you a bio, i hope you understand what happened. Ok so thats out of the way.

In Here Comes Tomorrow we see a future version of 616 universe, created thus because Scott used to abandon Emma and X-men. In that Universe, at least to me, it looks like Jean extracted Sublime’s atoms from the universe (the now created baby reality). The Sublime was explained as Intelligent bacterial colony gone rogue and in order to save the reality Jean herself explained she had to amputate the whole future (her own words).

To support this

On panel evidence from the story

Lets look at bios as well.

Official Handbook of Marvel Universe - Here comes tomorrow bio

Then, second part:

Jean herself says extracting Sublime essence wasnt easy for her.

Even this took her 6 pages of prep, here are the relevant scans

Then we see the manifestation of the reality on her hand, something even Jean doesnt understand what it is. Is it the whole universe, was it just the manifestation of the universe, what was it was never explained

She however knows the universe is wounded and has to be healed, what does she do, she goes to the past and changes Scott's mind. It was Scott's decision that changed the universe, not her action at all.

On panel evidence

Bios:

Explantion Grant Morrision gave to fans in X-men 155, he is the writer of the issue so he knows what he is talking about :p

Here is an extract from Marvel Official Handbook: Here comes Tomorrow bio

So in short what happened (this is ALL of white Phoenix feat). She removed sublime's atom from the universe who were insignificant bacterias gone rogue, which wasnt even easy and took her 6 pages of prep. Then she had to change the universe so she made Cyclops change his mind.

How does this feat, in any shape or form, show she is capable of fighting a giant Robot, created to adapt to anything thrown at him, which defeated a multiversal cosmic vampire who was capable of pushing back the DC multiverse? (I already posted this fight earlier feel free to check it out)

See this is where we disagree.

about galactus vs phoenix, though surfer has unlimited powers still his powers are way weaker than galactus. they are not on galactus level. I mean to say that though surfer has more amount of power than galactus but galactus is the one who give him that power thus its natural that even if galactus has limited amount of power stilll he is beyond surfer's power. I hope you are understanding my point. In simple words galactus has stronger type of power hence amount of power does not matter. But phoenix's power are greater in amount as well as in level hence she is far beyond galactus.

Firstly, its not only Galactus who needs sustanence, Phoenix needs the same sustenance and there really isnt that big a difference between the nature of 2 powers, as both get their powers from planets and stars (Galactus generally focuses on planets).

Secondly you seem convienced that Galactus is weaker than Phoenix, might i asked based on what?

You seem to be referring to when Rachel beat a hungry Galactus, but ignoring that Galactus did screw with her mind and she was left crying and mentally distrubed. Also beating a hungry, starving Galactus doesnt automatically show you are more powerful than Galactus, nor is it the only encounter between Galactus and Phoenix.

Lets look at some more.

A normally fed Galactus nearly ripped out the Phoenix Force from Rachel but was stopped by 2 other cosmic abstracts:

Excalibur Volume 1, Issue 25

A second instance, non canon, just wanted to show this as it add a bit more stuffs, but its not canon so feel free to ignore.

What If Volume 1, Issue 27

So apart from Excalibur Volume 1, Issue 61, a Phoenix that was fully bonded to its host managed to defeat a hungry, starving Galactus, at least to me doesnt sufficient show Phoenix force will always beat Galactus, specially given Galactus has better feats, but will address that some other time :)

and phoenix is prime force of life and death. she can remove antimoniter and mandrak completely out of existence(if they are living things).

I will be honest with you i have not read every Phoenix appearances but from what i have read i have never seen her do anything even remotely close to his. Would you happen to have an issue number or scan or bio which shows her doing anything like this, let alone to a being who is multiversal in power level, that also to a robot which is controlled conciously from Superman which is in a different universe altogether?

I dont think there is, but lets ask someone who has read more phoenix appearances than i have( @LordOfAllHumans: ),perhaps if he can give me something i can at least work to see if it would work on not, as it stand i do not think Phoenix has the power to do so. I couldnt give 2 hoots to character hyperbole but if thats a power, shown on panel, against a being comparable to the one in question, i will gladly accept, and tilt my hat in respect.

though LT > phoenix still its not true that he is way beyond her. there powers differs by a narrow margin. she is on same level as LT.

Ok i am honestly surprised, where are you getting that from? Because a drunk Watcher said she is only second to the creator, when everything else in her story arc contradicts that. Heck she has yet to perform a feat that is above universal, let alone be even remotely close to a being whose stats at the moment is megaversal in power level. I mean the flamebird, the purest manifestation of Phoenix power has problem fighting Thor who managed to clip its wing and Phoenix momentary ran away, Xorn killed Jean and made the Phoenix force explode, Shair made Phoenix its b*&^h, Iron Man broke it into 5 peices with a giant gun, a collection of 6 heroes from X-men and Ultraforce got the better of Phoenix and we are comparing it with the Living Tribunal?

On what basis might i ask?

Also if you need scan for any of the feat i listed, feel free to ask.

and do supes have any feat except defeating those guys. I want feats like destroying or reforming any galaxy or universe or something like that. I don 't want fighting feats.

No he doesnt, its only 1 feat as it appearened in pretty much only 1 fight. However, frankly neither does White Phoenix, i gave you the whole detail of her feat, with relevant bio and nothing there, at least to me puts her above universal, let alone multiversal, which she would need to be to have any chance against the cosmic armor.

Agree? Disagree? Let me know what you think, i hope i have made my case clear, provided relevant supporting documents. Anyother details you would like feel free to ask.

#42 Edited by LordOfAllHumans (4034 posts) - - Show Bio

It was not a baby universe, it was an orphan universe (as stated on panel) because it was amputated from the multiverse, it was clearly 616 since the push directly effected 616 Scott.

#43 Edited by LordOfAllHumans (4034 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

1. it does make her multiversal, because each one of those Phoenixes have a piece of the whole, that manifest in a universe, multiversal means multiple universes, she controls all Phoenix in every universe from the nexus of all creation and is a singular being in all those realities thus making her multiversal. Very much like Multi-Eternity being the culmination of all Eternity's.

I suppose its a difference in opinion. A football captain control 10 players in a football field. Does that makes him as powerful as 10 men? So unless you are saying she somehow gets the various Phoenix's from various avatar to fight this battle, i do not see how she can be considered multiversal.

2. nothing is theory they are all on panel, if you don't know about them find out, but don't dismiss them simply because you don't know about them

All i said was i was and still am unaware of the Feron feat, i did not discredit it, i didnt say it was wrong, just said i am unaware of this feat thats all.

Using the containment of M'kraan Crystal to suggest she was multiversal does seem like a theory. That certainly doesnt translate into being a multiversal feat.

3.I was not translating it to a multiversal feat only correcting your post that make it look like a simple healing, when it was much more than that. It also involved two universes (making it multi) and wounded the megasystem making it beyond universal.

How exactly where there 2 universe involved. She healed a collapsing universe, but changing it. Not sure where beyond universal is coming from.

4.The definition of a fully fed Galactus is a Galactus that has just fed and is in the state before his hunger strikes again, this Galactus ate a world thus sating his hunger, to prep for Rachel.

Could you quote me a issue number, a scan, or a bio that says Fully Fed Galactus is a Galactus that just fed on a planet? If so what would you call a Galactus that just fed on 4 planets at a go to face Celestials?

I do not remember there ever been a statement about fully fed Galactus. Resonable to assume it would mean Galactus feeding on as much as he can. He has never shown an upper limit, and the best we have is MC2 Galactus nearly eating the entire universe, so where exactly is your definition coming from?

5. Phoenix from AVX has never been stated to be the whole of the Phoenix, because there is one in every universe and even that one can split, nor has the fact that it was shattered into a billion pieces ever been resolved. There was a Phoenix that was supposed to come to Earth and split itself into five, oddly enough there were 5 pieces of the Phoenix removed by Jean from Korvus, Rachel, and 3 Cuckoos, and the Phoenix that first encountered that Nova was blue.

Well Tom Breevroot seem to think it was the whole Phoenix, never was it one stated it was a fragement of the Phoenix force. Not to mention the fire bird has always been indication of the entire phoenix force. Apart from on in Ultimate Universe and One in 616, making it perfectly clear than they are not related, phoenix for 616 is the firebird. Its the same thing that came to Earth. We seem see an avatar transcend into White Phoenix, for a short time during AvX at Kaulong (or however you spell that, the karate place :p ). we also see Hope accept the phoenix as white phoenix for a short time. Certainly implies it was the whole Phoenix as opposed to a fragment.

6.Because in an instant she can absorb things into her realm and control them atom by atom to decided their fate. Regardless of his stats or the stats of his opponent their fight was purely physical, White Phoenix transcends that and we've have seen too many times that pure fighting and throwing energy blasts at the Phoenix is not the way to defeat it ever, unless the consciousness has other plans. So what makes him superior when he can touch her?

Firstly, Phoenix has been defeated by purely physical means. Tony Shark shattered in into 5 peices, Shiar canon shattered it into billion peices. Avatars have also been vulnerable to physical attack, albiet to a higher degree. Wolverine repeatedly stabbed Emma to weaken the Phoenix during Endsong. Xron killed Jean as Phoenix. Wolverine also killed Jean as a Phoenix, but then she wanted to die. So i do not understand where that is coming from.

And are we ignoring Mandrax could do the same thing. He is a cosmic vampire of multiversal Order who feed upon an entire universe yet he lost. If we are going to hang onto saying Phoenix can erase his timeline (although she will have to find out about the time line of Superman someone she has never met, through a kick ass robot) there is nothing that implies she could bypass the "evolve to any threat".

He has better fighting feats, after all cosmic armor superman fought a multiversal being (well 52 universe at least) and beat him, showing he is superior.

1. that is a horrible analogy, a football player is only a man we are talking about cosmic powers beyond human scope.

2. the power of the Crystal is multiversal, you cannot contain something without having something big enough to contain it, you can't hold the Ocean with a bucket, you need something bigger that has enough size and volume to contain it so that it does not overflow, she had to recreated the stasis field that had to be powerful enough to contain a force that would destroy the multiverse.

3.it common sense is Galactus hungry immediately after he eats? No, so then that would suggest at the moment he is fully fed. This other so called fully fed Galactus is a fan myth that has gotten way out of hand for years. Using a feat from a Galactus that is from another universe, is in no way proving that he is not sated after simply eating a planet, because years of of him being sated between meals speaks volumes. The Galactus from that story was also manipulated and altered and in that instance was nothing like 616 Galactus.

4. Hope wearing white does not make her White Phoenix, Emma wears white when she is Phoenix so I guess she is a White Phoenix too, right? The Fire Bird is not indicative of the whole Phoenix because we know from canon and years of stories that there are several Phoenixes that manifest in many other realities as a fire bird, we also know that the Phoenix in it's native form is not a fire bird, it's the White Hot Room.

5.Tony did not defeat the Phoenix, What is your definition of defeat? all he did was speed up a process that was supposed to happen, the Phoenix was supposed to find 5 beings to ride to restore evolution as it had already done this on another planet centuries ago, Wolverine never went near Emma in Endsong, he stabbed Jean repeatedly because she allowed him too, Xorn killed Jean because the Phoenix was judging her and she failed to complete her task, which was the point of HCT to show what her inaction had brought about as far as Sublime, Jean told Wolverine after she brought them back that she had no idea how much longer the Phoenix would let her stay. She had come out of the Sun, the surface of the Sun alone produces EMPs of far greater magnitude than a planetary anything PIS at it's finest. As I stated if the Phoenix does not want to die or it's not dictated by the consciousness then it doesn't happen, every example you have given are examples of want or dictum.

She is the guardian of evolution and should be the most powerful psi talent in existence (being the nexus of all psi energy in the omniverse, I'm sure she can come up with something. Especially since the 616 Phoenix was used to perform an omniversal feat and is the reason the Captain Britain Corps exists and the so called guardians of the omniverse (Roma etc..) have jobs, it was also stated that the energy convergence that was a result of the Phoenix projecting the lighthouse throughout the omniverse, (originally multiverse but retconned into the omniverse) paled in comparison to the power of the Phoenix which is why Necrom (the sorcerer that wanted that power) ignored it to get the Phoenix, which resulted in Merlyn getting that power. Necrom also was using his home grown piece of the Phoenix to compress all Earths in the omniverse into a singularity. When it come to Phoenix I'm not impressed by multiversal beings when single Phoenix manifestation can do things on omniversal scales and be called more powerful than a convergence of omniversral energy, and prove to be so when the recipient of that onmiversal energy are afraid of the Phoenix.

Forget one....the feat involved HCT and 616, HCT was amputated and the megasytem was wounded she then took control of 616 atom by atom to grow a new future. When timelines diverge the divergence is now a different universe from the prime that is why marvel even has a multiverse.

#44 Posted by Killemall (18559 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans said:

1. that is a horrible analogy, a football player is only a man we are talking about cosmic powers beyond human scope.

I think the analogy fits perfectly. After all the Phoenix has its corps called the Phoenix corps, which operate from a headquarter called White Hot Room, which is located inside a multiversal nexus Mkran Crystal. White Phoenix is like the leader of the corps, its not like she weilds all their powers.

2. the power of the Crystal is multiversal, you cannot contain something without having something big enough to contain it, you can't hold the Ocean with a bucket, you need something bigger that has enough size and volume to contain it so that it does not overflow, she had to recreated the stasis field that had to be powerful enough to contain a force that would destroy the multiverse.

Yes while thats what bio says, that the power of the crystal is indeed multiversal, the story arced said otherwise. After all , to the best of my knoweledge that was the only issue where Mkran crystal was destroyed, assuming we are talking about the same instance X-men Volume 1, 108. In the issues the Mkraan crystal exploded, it destroyed a universe The World and was later resurrect. Furthermore, Phoenix didnt do it on her own accord, in fact she herself on panel said he has insufficient powers. She then asks Storm and Croisair for help and manipulating their lifeforce the cystal is contained.

In addition, Watcher and Handbook of Marvel Universe 2004, described it as capable of destroying a universe, while Gladiator though it was capable of destroying all reality , which i am thinking is a universe according to Gladiator.

I am missing these scan, if you post it i can show you where it has been said to be universal, even in the very scan M'kraan crystal is destryed, it is said to be universal. And even then Phoenix needed help.

3.it common sense is Galactus hungry immediately after he eats? No, so then that would suggest at the moment he is fully fed. This other so called fully fed Galactus is a fan myth that has gotten way out of hand for years.

No it isnt. Fully Fed implies eating as much as he could. And Galactus has eaten from 4 planets to either universe. So not seeing how fully fed would only include eating one planet. Not to mention its not a fan myth, it happened during Black Celestial arc.

Even then if we ignore this, its not like a Phoenix avatar has ever beaten a moderately fed Galactus anyways. Apart from the fight with Rachel and a starving Galactus, which Rachel won physically but Galactus mindf%^&ed her, other istance Phoenix has never beaten Galactus. Galactus also has better feats than Phoenix avatars anyways.

4. Hope wearing white does not make her White Phoenix, Emma wears white when she is Phoenix so I guess she is a White Phoenix too, right? The Fire Bird is not indicative of the whole Phoenix because we know from canon and years of stories that there are several Phoenixes that manifest in many other realities as a fire bird, we also know that the Phoenix in it's native form is not a fire bird, it's the White Hot Room.

Firstly, show me a proof that various Phoenix force from various realities are somehow connected. Phoenix , call it a recton or otherwise, was said to have been born with the big bang alonside abstracts in recent AvX story arc.

Here are the relevant scan:

So thats a retcon (coz i remember Reed and Watcher saying Phoenix created the big bang). There was a Phoenix from the Prior universe that choose Galactus, i have never seen from any bio that phoenix been linked to 616 Phoenix.

So a shed of proof that shows that was a mere aspect of Phoenix as opposed to actualy Phoenix force?

5.Tony did not defeat the Phoenix, What is your definition of defeat? all he did was speed up a process that was supposed to happen, the Phoenix was supposed to find 5 beings to ride to restore evolution as it had already done this on another planet centuries ago, Wolverine never went near Emma in Endsong, he stabbed Jean repeatedly because she allowed him too, Xorn killed Jean because the Phoenix was judging her and she failed to complete her task, which was the point of HCT to show what her inaction had brought about as far as Sublime, Jean told Wolverine after she brought them back that she had no idea how much longer the Phoenix would let her stay. She had come out of the Sun, the surface of the Sun alone produces EMPs of far greater magnitude than a planetary anything PIS at it's finest. As I stated if the Phoenix does not want to die or it's not dictated by the consciousness then it doesn't happen, every example you have given are examples of want or dictum.

Firstly i never said Tony defeated Phoenix, what i said was we have seen that Phoenix can be defeated by Physical force and i gave you few examples to back it up.

Indulge me here, how would you describe Thor hitting Phoenix with his hammer, Phoenix crying out in pain, having her wings clipped and running way? Isnt that a defeat? Certainly shows she can be defeated.

Also saying PIS really isnt a valid argument. Not to mention its not the first time around, lets just copy paste what i have said earlier: the flamebird, the purest manifestation of Phoenix power has problem fighting Thor who managed to clip its wing and Phoenix momentary ran away, Xorn killed Jean and made the Phoenix force explode, Shair made Phoenix its b*&^h, Iron Man broke it into 5 peices with a giant gun, a collection of 6 heroes from X-men and Ultraforce got the better of Phoenix

I am using those showings to say Phoenix can be defeated by Physical means, care to show me as much or more evidence to say its false. Because if she has, more often than not, been hurt by physical means to point where she is broken in peices and has to run into hybernation for ages, as oppose to other times when she is presumely been shown immune to physical force, its only fair to accept what is consistantly shown. I am sure you have read all the instances i have mention, feel free to ask me for a scan if you havent, but i dont think you will anyways.

She is the guardian of evolution and should be the most powerful psi talent in existence (being the nexus of all psi energy in the omniverse, I'm sure she can come up with something.

First part is just character hyperbole, we go by feats people dont actually buy into hyperbole unless you are talking about supreme entities. PSI talent i give you that, but when has she been able to TP a giant robot, let alone of a multiversal order.

Also BTW, you never explained whether you agree or disagree with my de-construction of White Phoenix Feats (special thanks to Mr. Master from KMC whom i have been following from last few weeks). Coz you are explaining it as tran-universal feat, while i see in below universal feat. The only instance that i know of Phoenix doing any better than destroying stars and planet comes from what if, where she destroyed universes each (1 universe each in 2 issues). We generally dont count What If, even if we do, what is there actually to put Phoenix as a multiversal power house, hyperboles and her avatars being in various multiverse? Isnt that like saying Green Lantern Corps is multiversal because there are more than 1 GL in every universe???

#45 Posted by Killemall (18559 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans said:

It was not a baby universe, it was an orphan universe (as stated on panel) because it was amputated from the multiverse, it was clearly 616 since the push directly effected 616 Scott.

It is an infant universe, and 15104 is an alteration of 616 universe, after all its was Scott's decision that changed the universe, makes sense he remember the change he himself made. How does that translate to being a above universe feat, let alone a universal (since she never actually affected either universe but rather only removes sublimes from the universe, time travel and convinced Scott).

#46 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4034 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

1. that is a horrible analogy, a football player is only a man we are talking about cosmic powers beyond human scope.

I think the analogy fits perfectly. After all the Phoenix has its corps called the Phoenix corps, which operate from a headquarter called White Hot Room, which is located inside a multiversal nexus Mkran Crystal. White Phoenix is like the leader of the corps, its not like she weilds all their powers.

2. the power of the Crystal is multiversal, you cannot contain something without having something big enough to contain it, you can't hold the Ocean with a bucket, you need something bigger that has enough size and volume to contain it so that it does not overflow, she had to recreated the stasis field that had to be powerful enough to contain a force that would destroy the multiverse.

Yes while thats what bio says, that the power of the crystal is indeed multiversal, the story arced said otherwise. After all , to the best of my knoweledge that was the only issue where Mkran crystal was destroyed, assuming we are talking about the same instance X-men Volume 1, 108. In the issues the Mkraan crystal exploded, it destroyed a universe The World and was later resurrect. Furthermore, Phoenix didnt do it on her own accord, in fact she herself on panel said he has insufficient powers. She then asks Storm and Croisair for help and manipulating their lifeforce the cystal is contained.

In addition, Watcher and Handbook of Marvel Universe 2004, described it as capable of destroying a universe, while Gladiator though it was capable of destroying all reality , which i am thinking is a universe according to Gladiator.

I am missing these scan, if you post it i can show you where it has been said to be universal, even in the very scan M'kraan crystal is destryed, it is said to be universal. And even then Phoenix needed help.

3.it common sense is Galactus hungry immediately after he eats? No, so then that would suggest at the moment he is fully fed. This other so called fully fed Galactus is a fan myth that has gotten way out of hand for years.

No it isnt. Fully Fed implies eating as much as he could. And Galactus has eaten from 4 planets to either universe. So not seeing how fully fed would only include eating one planet. Not to mention its not a fan myth, it happened during Black Celestial arc.

Even then if we ignore this, its not like a Phoenix avatar has ever beaten a moderately fed Galactus anyways. Apart from the fight with Rachel and a starving Galactus, which Rachel won physically but Galactus mindf%^&ed her, other istance Phoenix has never beaten Galactus. Galactus also has better feats than Phoenix avatars anyways.

4. Hope wearing white does not make her White Phoenix, Emma wears white when she is Phoenix so I guess she is a White Phoenix too, right? The Fire Bird is not indicative of the whole Phoenix because we know from canon and years of stories that there are several Phoenixes that manifest in many other realities as a fire bird, we also know that the Phoenix in it's native form is not a fire bird, it's the White Hot Room.

Firstly, show me a proof that various Phoenix force from various realities are somehow connected. Phoenix , call it a recton or otherwise, was said to have been born with the big bang alonside abstracts in recent AvX story arc.

Here are the relevant scan:

So thats a retcon (coz i remember Reed and Watcher saying Phoenix created the big bang). There was a Phoenix from the Prior universe that choose Galactus, i have never seen from any bio that phoenix been linked to 616 Phoenix.

So a shed of proof that shows that was a mere aspect of Phoenix as opposed to actualy Phoenix force?

5.Tony did not defeat the Phoenix, What is your definition of defeat? all he did was speed up a process that was supposed to happen, the Phoenix was supposed to find 5 beings to ride to restore evolution as it had already done this on another planet centuries ago, Wolverine never went near Emma in Endsong, he stabbed Jean repeatedly because she allowed him too, Xorn killed Jean because the Phoenix was judging her and she failed to complete her task, which was the point of HCT to show what her inaction had brought about as far as Sublime, Jean told Wolverine after she brought them back that she had no idea how much longer the Phoenix would let her stay. She had come out of the Sun, the surface of the Sun alone produces EMPs of far greater magnitude than a planetary anything PIS at it's finest. As I stated if the Phoenix does not want to die or it's not dictated by the consciousness then it doesn't happen, every example you have given are examples of want or dictum.

Firstly i never said Tony defeated Phoenix, what i said was we have seen that Phoenix can be defeated by Physical force and i gave you few examples to back it up.

Indulge me here, how would you describe Thor hitting Phoenix with his hammer, Phoenix crying out in pain, having her wings clipped and running way? Isnt that a defeat? Certainly shows she can be defeated.

Also saying PIS really isnt a valid argument. Not to mention its not the first time around, lets just copy paste what i have said earlier: the flamebird, the purest manifestation of Phoenix power has problem fighting Thor who managed to clip its wing and Phoenix momentary ran away, Xorn killed Jean and made the Phoenix force explode, Shair made Phoenix its b*&^h, Iron Man broke it into 5 peices with a giant gun, a collection of 6 heroes from X-men and Ultraforce got the better of Phoenix

I am using those showings to say Phoenix can be defeated by Physical means, care to show me as much or more evidence to say its false. Because if she has, more often than not, been hurt by physical means to point where she is broken in peices and has to run into hybernation for ages, as oppose to other times when she is presumely been shown immune to physical force, its only fair to accept what is consistantly shown. I am sure you have read all the instances i have mention, feel free to ask me for a scan if you havent, but i dont think you will anyways.

She is the guardian of evolution and should be the most powerful psi talent in existence (being the nexus of all psi energy in the omniverse, I'm sure she can come up with something.

First part is just character hyperbole, we go by feats people dont actually buy into hyperbole unless you are talking about supreme entities. PSI talent i give you that, but when has she been able to TP a giant robot, let alone of a multiversal order.

Also BTW, you never explained whether you agree or disagree with my de-construction of White Phoenix Feats (special thanks to Mr. Master from KMC whom i have been following from last few weeks). Coz you are explaining it as tran-universal feat, while i see in below universal feat. The only instance that i know of Phoenix doing any better than destroying stars and planet comes from what if, where she destroyed universes each (1 universe each in 2 issues). We generally dont count What If, even if we do, what is there actually to put Phoenix as a multiversal power house, hyperboles and her avatars being in various multiverse? Isnt that like saying Green Lantern Corps is multiversal because there are more than 1 GL in every universe???

It;s a horrible analogy because White Phoenix is more than a captain she allocates the power she is in control of it and is one with the entire force. A football captain cannot take away the stats of his players, even if they are benched they are still just as strong as they were , White Phoenix can take away the power as she please.

I was gonna go into this point by point, until you confirmed my suspicious of where you got that break down from I have been a member of KMC since before Jean Grey died the last time (under a different handle) and can assure you that, Mr. Master is a known Phoenix hater and troll and has been caught several times lying and has even admitted to being wrong, he has some agenda against the Phoenix because he believes himself to be an authority on the cosmic hierarchy and the Phoenix threatens his order, that will not hesitate to bury you in irrelevant scans when one of his posts is successfully refuted. I actually expected more from you than to go as far as to use somebody elses claims especially when in those forums he is caught in his lies quite a bit throws a tantrum and threatens to never post again when people start to see his post for what they are. So on that note if you are using his very biased arguments to further your own we have nothing left to discuss. I'm sure you can go to KMC and see his epic and very long winded debates with Galactic Storm.

#47 Posted by Killemall (18559 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans said:

It;s a horrible analogy because White Phoenix is more than a captain she allocates the power she is in control of it and is one with the entire force. A football captain cannot take away the stats of his players, even if they are benched they are still just as strong as they were , White Phoenix can take away the power as she please.

Ok either you are saying White Phoenix in this fight goes and absorbs powers from other avatars, and the only instance i know of where Phoenix avatar's power was taken was when Jean did that to Emma in Endsong and Jean had no phoenix in that, it look like a half cooked theory and once inapplicable in this thread.

I was gonna go into this point by point, until you confirmed my suspicious of where you got that break down from I have been a member of KMC since before Jean Grey died the last time (under a different handle) and can assure you that, Mr. Master is a known Phoenix hater and troll and has been caught several times lying and has even admitted to being wrong, he has some agenda against the Phoenix because he believes himself to be an authority on the cosmic hierarchy and the Phoenix threatens his order, that will not hesitate to bury you in irrelevant scans when one of his posts is successfully refuted. I actually expected more from you than to go as far as to use somebody elses claims especially when in those forums he is caught in his lies quite a bit throws a tantrum and threatens to never post again when people start to see his post for what they are. So on that note if you are using his very biased arguments to further your own we have nothing left to discuss. I'm sure you can go to KMC and see his epic and very long winded debates with Galactic Storm.

So far i have been following his debates, he seem to back everything up with scans as well as bio, reading them makes perfect sense to me and when i understand a particular feat, read the bio and scan and does make sense to me i copy those feats for future use. If there is indeed some feats that has been mis-interpreted here (and he had both bios and scan which clearly stated the same thing) i do not see how he is being a fanboy. He seems to know his stuffs and without anything from your side to contradict it, i would not just call him a troll.

Also, would you happen to have a link of GS vs Mr. M? I would love to read both argument. I have changed my mind when someone does post something which makes more sense to me than what i am arguing, repeatedly at that. But without an argument, i am not just going to ignore someone's argument because others call him a troll, when its backed by both issue number, scans and bios and few of the issues i have read myself and interpreted it the same way.

The other person seem to agree with MR. M most of the time, IP, who has 2 phoenix respect thread on KMC, both very very detailed, and i would think he knows enough of Phoenix (although few ppl did call him bias in KMC i havent seen any evidence thus far, everything challanged he has backed with feats). But then i joined KMC a week ago, so meh! have a lot to read.

#48 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4034 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

It was not a baby universe, it was an orphan universe (as stated on panel) because it was amputated from the multiverse, it was clearly 616 since the push directly effected 616 Scott.

It is an infant universe, and 15104 is an alteration of 616 universe, after all its was Scott's decision that changed the universe, makes sense he remember the change he himself made. How does that translate to being a above universe feat, let alone a universal (since she never actually affected either universe but rather only removes sublimes from the universe, time travel and convinced Scott).

It was called on panel an orphan!!! not a baby not an infant, How can 15104 be a baby when it is 150 years in the future of 616 which has been around for billions of years? Changing his mind is not the universal feat, controlling the universe atom by atom is the universal feat. She did not time travel as she never left the White Hot Room, she is outside of time and space. How can you say she didn't affect either universe when it's stated on panel that 15104 was amputated, this made 616 an orphan because it had no future and was cut off from the megasystem, so she took control off it there was no future so there was no time travel, what was left was 616 150 years ago when Scott made his choice to leave the Xmen, and she pushed him to live his life thus growing a new future and healing the wounded left by the amputation. I must admit I could not ignore this post because it's just as wrong as it was when Mr. Master tried to pass it off as fact nearly a decade ago.

#49 Posted by Killemall (18559 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans said:

It was called on panel an orphan!!! not a baby not an infant, How can 15104 be a baby when it is 150 years in the future of 616 which has been around for billions of years? Changing his mind is not the universal feat, controlling the universe atom by atom is the universal feat. She did not time travel as she never left the White Hot Room, she is outside of time and space. How can you say she didn't affect either universe when it's stated on panel that 15104 was amputated, this made 616 an orphan because it had no future and was cut off from the megasystem, so she took control off it there was no future so there was no time travel, what was left was 616 150 years ago when Scott made his choice to leave the Xmen, and she pushed him to live his life thus growing a new future and healing the wounded left by the amputation. I must admit I could not ignore this post because it's just as wrong as it was when Mr. Master tried to pass it off as fact nearly a decade ago.

Both scans and bio seem to say she did not control the entire universe but only removed atoms of sublime from it, so how exactly is that a universal feat, let alone transuniversal at that, when she need 6 pages of prep for that?

This is MR. MAster's post or rather my interpretation from his post and scans to which both bios and scan seem to comply. Anything that says she affected anything more than than sublime in the story arc?

she was asked to heal it, and she healed it by using Scott and making him change his mind, how exactly is that universal feat anyways?

And similar universe was held and controlled by a watched during 1602, Issue 02. Certainly undermines the argument on her favor.

#50 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4034 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

It;s a horrible analogy because White Phoenix is more than a captain she allocates the power she is in control of it and is one with the entire force. A football captain cannot take away the stats of his players, even if they are benched they are still just as strong as they were , White Phoenix can take away the power as she please.

Ok either you are saying White Phoenix in this fight goes and absorbs powers from other avatars, and the only instance i know of where Phoenix avatar's power was taken was when Jean did that to Emma in Endsong and Jean had no phoenix in that, it look like a half cooked theory and once inapplicable in this thread.

I was gonna go into this point by point, until you confirmed my suspicious of where you got that break down from I have been a member of KMC since before Jean Grey died the last time (under a different handle) and can assure you that, Mr. Master is a known Phoenix hater and troll and has been caught several times lying and has even admitted to being wrong, he has some agenda against the Phoenix because he believes himself to be an authority on the cosmic hierarchy and the Phoenix threatens his order, that will not hesitate to bury you in irrelevant scans when one of his posts is successfully refuted. I actually expected more from you than to go as far as to use somebody elses claims especially when in those forums he is caught in his lies quite a bit throws a tantrum and threatens to never post again when people start to see his post for what they are. So on that note if you are using his very biased arguments to further your own we have nothing left to discuss. I'm sure you can go to KMC and see his epic and very long winded debates with Galactic Storm.

So far i have been following his debates, he seem to back everything up with scans as well as bio, reading them makes perfect sense to me and when i understand a particular feat, read the bio and scan and does make sense to me i copy those feats for future use. If there is indeed some feats that has been mis-interpreted here (and he had both bios and scan which clearly stated the same thing) i do not see how he is being a fanboy. He seems to know his stuffs and without anything from your side to contradict it, i would not just call him a troll.

Also, would you happen to have a link of GS vs Mr. M? I would love to read both argument. I have changed my mind when someone does post something which makes more sense to me than what i am arguing, repeatedly at that. But without an argument, i am not just going to ignore someone's argument because others call him a troll, when its backed by both issue number, scans and bios and few of the issues i have read myself and interpreted it the same way.

The other person seem to agree with MR. M most of the time, IP, who has 2 phoenix respect thread on KMC, both very very detailed, and i would think he knows enough of Phoenix (although few ppl did call him bias in KMC i havent seen any evidence thus far, everything challanged he has backed with feats). But then i joined KMC a week ago, so meh! have a lot to read.

you need to read everything, because GS also backs his claims that successfully refute everything Mr. Master says with scans and bios as well (so are Mr. Masters scan more canon than another with scans?), I don't expect you to ignore him there are always two sides to everything, but he has shown extreme biased in the past and you should at least look at that before you start to quote him. This was interesting, but I've grown tired especially when I now know were you are getting your "facts" from. I will try to get some links to their debates and PM them to you.

Peace out!