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Posted by ComicStooge (13368 posts) - - Show Bio

Fight takes place:Gotham Bridge

Batman has standard gear

Drakon has 2 Pistols (no reload) and 3 throwing knives

Morals apply

Fight until Death, KO

#1 Posted by jashro44 (22796 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump because I think this could be a decent fight and was gonna make this thread. Personally I say drakons speed and reflexes will be enough to give Constantine an edge here.

#2 Posted by ChaosBlazer (3930 posts) - - Show Bio

bbbbbbbBatman.

#3 Posted by bump1010 (299 posts) - - Show Bio

@ChaosBlazer said:

bbbbbbbBatman.

Why?

#4 Posted by Saren (25891 posts) - - Show Bio

Drakon.

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#5 Posted by ChaosBlazer (3930 posts) - - Show Bio

@bump1010: I think Drakon is almost as good a fighter but Batman has better gear

close though

#6 Posted by bump1010 (299 posts) - - Show Bio

@ChaosBlazer said:

@bump1010: I think Drakon is almost as good a fighter but Batman has better gear

close though

But Drakon has undefined levels of super human speed so he should be faster. And batmans gear is limited here, and not to mention batman does seems to go hand to hand a lot.

#7 Posted by ChaosBlazer (3930 posts) - - Show Bio

@bump1010: Drakon managed to put a beating on Connor Hawke, but does he have any other feats?

#8 Posted by bump1010 (299 posts) - - Show Bio

@ChaosBlazer said:

@bump1010: Drakon managed to put a beating on Connor Hawke, but does he have any other feats?

Besides his other showings against the arrow family no he doesn't. He has only been written by 1 writer so far.

#9 Posted by ChaosBlazer (3930 posts) - - Show Bio

@bump1010: in that case I don't think he has the feats to prove he can beat Batman.

#10 Posted by bump1010 (299 posts) - - Show Bio

@ChaosBlazer said:

@bump1010: in that case I don't think he has the feats to prove he can beat Batman.

Not necessarily the case. Drakon was beating connor without much trouble where as when lady shiva fought connor she did still win but he did bloody her up. Drakon did better then shiva who is comparable to batman, I know this is sort of ABC logic but I think it shows Drakons hand to hand ability in comparison to another fighter. I don't think batman could beat connor in the same way Drakon did. I don't think batman could beat connor hawke in the same manor which drakon did.

#11 Posted by Stronger (4948 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman wins good fight.

#12 Posted by Moon_Bat_87 (719 posts) - - Show Bio

@bump1010 said:

@ChaosBlazer said:

@bump1010: in that case I don't think he has the feats to prove he can beat Batman.

Not necessarily the case. Drakon was beating connor without much trouble where as when lady shiva fought connor she did still win but he did bloody her up. Drakon did better then shiva who is comparable to batman, I know this is sort of ABC logic but I think it shows Drakons hand to hand ability in comparison to another fighter. I don't think batman could beat connor in the same way Drakon did. I don't think batman could beat connor hawke in the same manor which drakon did.

Well Batman can defeat Connor as well. But I do not think they have ever fought. I dont remember if in Legends of the Dark Knight #128, if its Ollie or Connor.

Against Lady Shiva, Batman's record is : Win (Superman Batman #3), Draw (Batman #427) (interrupted), No Contest (Batman #509). I am not sure, but I think they have fought two more times.

Batman has also defeated David Cain (Batman #605).

@Stronger said:

Batman wins good fight.

Agreed.

#13 Posted by grimlock (1571 posts) - - Show Bio

if the fight goes purely h2h Drakon wins on unanimous decision. he has enough speed to land most shots and avoid batman's assault. but i doubt he can KO bats i dont think he has enough power to do that. batman is a hard hitter and is likely to finish the fight in a KO if he lands a few shots well, otherwise, i go with Drakon

#14 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

@CitizenBane said:

Drakon.

#15 Posted by bump1010 (299 posts) - - Show Bio

@Moon_Bat_87:

Well Batman can defeat Connor as well. But I do not think they have ever fought. I dont remember if in Legends of the Dark Knight #128, if its Ollie or Connor.

I agree he can beat connor but he can not beat him as easily as Constantine drakon did. Constantine Drakon beat connor with ease which is not a feat batman could replicate. And that wasn't Connor it was ollie in legends of the dark knight 128.

Against Lady Shiva, Batman's record is : Win (Superman Batman #3), Draw (Batman #427) (interrupted), No Contest (Batman #509). I am not sure, but I think they have fought two more times.

He beat a mind controlled shiva. For all we know she wasn't performing to the best of her abilities since she wasn't in control. The fact that they have fought so evenly in there other fights just shows he cannot replicate constantine drakons feat of beating connor hawke with ease.

Batman has also defeated David Cain (Batman #605).

Who is probably less skilled then connor hawke and I don't think he is physically as storng as connor either because of his age.

I say Drakon takes this 7/10.

@grimlock said:

if the fight goes purely h2h Drakon wins on unanimous decision. he has enough speed to land most shots and avoid batman's assault. but i doubt he can KO bats i dont think he has enough power to do that. batman is a hard hitter and is likely to finish the fight in a KO if he lands a few shots well, otherwise, i go with Drakon

Constantine Drakon punched connor through a door and connors thoughts were "he has power" or something along those lines and he did this while making connor numb at the arms and legs with a pressure point attack. He might not be as strong as batman but he is strong enough to hurt him and he also knows where and how to hit to make things hurt. Besides in this scenario he has throwing knives. He can always use those as melee weapons.

@Stronger said:

Batman wins good fight.

Why?

#16 Edited by Moon_Bat_87 (719 posts) - - Show Bio

@bump1010 said:

@Moon_Bat_87:

Well Batman can defeat Connor as well. But I do not think they have ever fought. I dont remember if in Legends of the Dark Knight #128, if its Ollie or Connor.

I agree he can beat connor but he can not beat him as easily as Constantine drakon did. Constantine Drakon beat connor with ease which is not a feat batman could replicate. And that wasn't Connor it was ollie in legends of the dark knight 128.

Cool, thanks, I couldnt remember if it was Connor or Ollie, so thanks for the reminder. All I remember is no mustache.

@bump1010 said:

Against Lady Shiva, Batman's record is : Win (Superman Batman #3), Draw (Batman #427) (interrupted), No Contest (Batman #509). I am not sure, but I think they have fought two more times.

He beat a mind controlled shiva. For all we know she wasn't performing to the best of her abilities since she wasn't in control. The fact that they have fought so evenly in there other fights just shows he cannot replicate constantine drakons feat of beating connor hawke with ease.

Well, as far as the mind control effecting her performance, that is conjecture, which could go either way, but I see your point.

But your right, I agree, the fact that they have fought evenly is indeed a factor in this as you say.

@bump1010 said:

Batman has also defeated David Cain (Batman #605).

Who is probably less skilled then connor hawke and I don't think he is physically as storng as connor either because of his age.

I say Drakon takes this 7/10.

I can agree with that. But I would personally place it 6/10.

@bump1010 said:

@grimlock said:

if the fight goes purely h2h Drakon wins on unanimous decision. he has enough speed to land most shots and avoid batman's assault. but i doubt he can KO bats i dont think he has enough power to do that. batman is a hard hitter and is likely to finish the fight in a KO if he lands a few shots well, otherwise, i go with Drakon

Constantine Drakon punched connor through a door and connors thoughts were "he has power" or something along those lines and he did this while making connor numb at the arms and legs with a pressure point attack. He might not be as strong as batman but he is strong enough to hurt him and he also knows where and how to hit to make things hurt. Besides in this scenario he has throwing knives. He can always use those as melee weapons.

Yeah, I would say Batman is indeed stronger, but as you pointed out, he is likely more skilled.

Now, because of this are we saying that Drakon is the best human martial arts fighter (not including Karate Kid) in the DC universe? That sounds obtuse but I dont mean it to be.

#17 Posted by bump1010 (299 posts) - - Show Bio

@Moon_Bat_87:

Now, because of this are we saying that Drakon is the best human martial arts fighter (not including Karate Kid) in the DC universe? That sounds obtuse but I dont mean it to be.

Constantine drakon is likely not the best martial artist as his skill is hard to quantify. He has a degree of super human speed and has stated that it was an advantage he has over other fighters. Despite the fact that Drakon is likely going to beat batman in hand to hand combat in terms of sheer skill he probably isn't better then batman, a part of why he wins is because of his super human speed. We know he is skilled because he has shown technical knowledge and I believe we have a reference to his training but we just don't know how much of a role his speed plays in his fights.

#18 Posted by Moon_Bat_87 (719 posts) - - Show Bio

@bump1010 said:

@Moon_Bat_87:

Now, because of this are we saying that Drakon is the best human martial arts fighter (not including Karate Kid) in the DC universe? That sounds obtuse but I dont mean it to be.

Constantine drakon is likely not the best martial artist as his skill is hard to quantify. He has a degree of super human speed and has stated that it was an advantage he has over other fighters. Despite the fact that Drakon is likely going to beat batman in hand to hand combat in terms of sheer skill he probably isn't better then batman, a part of why he wins is because of his super human speed. We know he is skilled because he has shown technical knowledge and I believe we have a reference to his training but we just don't know how much of a role his speed plays in his fights.

I wasnt sure if his super human speed had been confirmed. I thought (falsely it seems) that it was simply conjecture from his opponents.

Thanks for the information. It is really helpful.

But I am a bit confused, if Drakon is not better at martial arts, then how can he defeat Batman, if Batman is better? Or are you simply saying because of the equipment and the original posters conditions, that Drakon wins?

#19 Posted by k4tzm4n (48653 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd favor Drakon. While we can't properly determine his exact level of skill, his sheer speed and reflexes in combination with what is clearly a more than able degree of talent should allow him to take the victory here. It will take some time and Batman's gear absolutely allows him to make this interesting (disputably winning more than a handful, too) - but I think in the end, I think the following 2 panels summarize why he'd hold the edge.

Oh, those knives will help a wee bit, too.

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#20 Posted by k4tzm4n (48653 posts) - - Show Bio

@Moon_Bat_87 said:

@bump1010 said:

@Moon_Bat_87:

Now, because of this are we saying that Drakon is the best human martial arts fighter (not including Karate Kid) in the DC universe? That sounds obtuse but I dont mean it to be.

Constantine drakon is likely not the best martial artist as his skill is hard to quantify. He has a degree of super human speed and has stated that it was an advantage he has over other fighters. Despite the fact that Drakon is likely going to beat batman in hand to hand combat in terms of sheer skill he probably isn't better then batman, a part of why he wins is because of his super human speed. We know he is skilled because he has shown technical knowledge and I believe we have a reference to his training but we just don't know how much of a role his speed plays in his fights.

I wasnt sure if his super human speed had been confirmed. I thought (falsely it seems) that it was simply conjecture from his opponents.

Thanks for the information. It is really helpful.

But I am a bit confused, if Drakon is not better at martial arts, then how can he defeat Batman, if Batman is better? Or are you simply saying because of the equipment and the original posters conditions, that Drakon wins?

I underlined Ollie claiming Drakon has super speed (2nd panel, bottom caption).

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#21 Posted by Moon_Bat_87 (719 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah I thought that was just him saying he had super speed, kind like if you fight someone and you say they "hit like a sledge hammer" or something similar.

#22 Posted by k4tzm4n (48653 posts) - - Show Bio

@Moon_Bat_87: That's certainly understandable, but I think Drakon's feats justify the statement.

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#23 Posted by bump1010 (299 posts) - - Show Bio

@Moon_Bat_87 said:

@bump1010 said:

@Moon_Bat_87:

Now, because of this are we saying that Drakon is the best human martial arts fighter (not including Karate Kid) in the DC universe? That sounds obtuse but I dont mean it to be.

Constantine drakon is likely not the best martial artist as his skill is hard to quantify. He has a degree of super human speed and has stated that it was an advantage he has over other fighters. Despite the fact that Drakon is likely going to beat batman in hand to hand combat in terms of sheer skill he probably isn't better then batman, a part of why he wins is because of his super human speed. We know he is skilled because he has shown technical knowledge and I believe we have a reference to his training but we just don't know how much of a role his speed plays in his fights.

I wasnt sure if his super human speed had been confirmed. I thought (falsely it seems) that it was simply conjecture from his opponents.

Thanks for the information. It is really helpful.

But I am a bit confused, if Drakon is not better at martial arts, then how can he defeat Batman, if Batman is better? Or are you simply saying because of the equipment and the original posters conditions, that Drakon wins?

Despite batman being more skilled Drakons speed is better. Drakon is the better combatant because of speed but in terms of who has had the more training, who has shown the better technical knowledge, etc, batman takes it. I think Drakon wins because of his super speed in combination with his skill.

#24 Posted by Moon_Bat_87 (719 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n said:

@Moon_Bat_87: That's certainly understandable, but I think Drakon's feats justify the statement.

And I could agree with you on that, but I would still question if it truly metahuman speed or absolute peak human speed.

#25 Posted by k4tzm4n (48653 posts) - - Show Bio

@Moon_Bat_87 said:

@k4tzm4n said:

@Moon_Bat_87: That's certainly understandable, but I think Drakon's feats justify the statement.

And I could agree with you on that, but I would still question if it truly metahuman speed or absolute peak human speed.

Personally, I believe the ability to effortlessly catch dozens of arrows from two targets is beyond the peak human range.

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#26 Posted by Moon_Bat_87 (719 posts) - - Show Bio

@bump1010 said:

@Moon_Bat_87 said:

@bump1010 said:

@Moon_Bat_87:

Now, because of this are we saying that Drakon is the best human martial arts fighter (not including Karate Kid) in the DC universe? That sounds obtuse but I dont mean it to be.

Constantine drakon is likely not the best martial artist as his skill is hard to quantify. He has a degree of super human speed and has stated that it was an advantage he has over other fighters. Despite the fact that Drakon is likely going to beat batman in hand to hand combat in terms of sheer skill he probably isn't better then batman, a part of why he wins is because of his super human speed. We know he is skilled because he has shown technical knowledge and I believe we have a reference to his training but we just don't know how much of a role his speed plays in his fights.

I wasnt sure if his super human speed had been confirmed. I thought (falsely it seems) that it was simply conjecture from his opponents.

Thanks for the information. It is really helpful.

But I am a bit confused, if Drakon is not better at martial arts, then how can he defeat Batman, if Batman is better? Or are you simply saying because of the equipment and the original posters conditions, that Drakon wins?

Despite batman being more skilled Drakons speed is better. Drakon is the better combatant because of speed but in terms of who has had the more training, who has shown the better technical knowledge, etc, batman takes it. I think Drakon wins because of his super speed in combination with his skill.

I can agree to that! Cheers!

@k4tzm4n said:

@Moon_Bat_87 said:

@k4tzm4n said:

@Moon_Bat_87: That's certainly understandable, but I think Drakon's feats justify the statement.

And I could agree with you on that, but I would still question if it truly metahuman speed or absolute peak human speed.

Personally, I believe the ability to effortlessly catch dozens of arrows from two targets is beyond the peak human range.

Makes sense to me. There is really no point in us arguing about his speed, be it metahuman range or absolute human peak, we both agree its faster than Batman, Connor, Ollie, and even Shiva.

#27 Posted by k4tzm4n (48653 posts) - - Show Bio

@Moon_Bat_87: Agreed.

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#28 Posted by ComicStooge (13368 posts) - - Show Bio

I edited the OP, slighly. Bruce has regular gear now.

#29 Posted by jashro44 (22796 posts) - - Show Bio

Even with the edit I still say drakon for the same reasons.

#30 Posted by Stronger (4948 posts) - - Show Bio

@bump1010: Mostly gadgets.They are equal in h2h.

#31 Posted by grimlock (1571 posts) - - Show Bio

@bump1010: Amazingly it is Drakon's speed that is much spoken about by both himself and his opponents. i think his power is much of an exception and not the rule. i don't think he would even depend upon physical power to beat batman he knows he's way outclassed in that sector. i also don't think Connor is a solid standard to measure Drakon's strength stats. but i think we both agree batman gets beaten here

#32 Posted by bump1010 (299 posts) - - Show Bio

@Stronger said:

@bump1010: Mostly gadgets.They are equal in h2h.

Batman has a tendency to test himself against other opponents. And they are not equals in hand to hand combat imo, I think Drakons speed gives him an edge on batman. But which gadgets do you think would give batman an edge in a morals on encounter?

@grimlock said:

@bump1010: Amazingly it is Drakon's speed that is much spoken about by both himself and his opponents. i think his power is much of an exception and not the rule. i don't think he would even depend upon physical power to beat batman he knows he's way outclassed in that sector. i also don't think Connor is a solid standard to measure Drakon's strength stats. but i think we both agree batman gets beaten here

I think I can agree with this however we don't really have any other top fighters to gauge drakons abilities with besides connor.

#33 Posted by grimlock (1571 posts) - - Show Bio

@bump1010 said:

@Stronger said:

@bump1010: Mostly gadgets.They are equal in h2h.

Batman has a tendency to test himself against other opponents. And they are not equals in hand to hand combat imo, I think Drakons speed gives him an edge on batman. But which gadgets do you think would give batman an edge in a morals on encounter?

@grimlock said:

@bump1010: Amazingly it is Drakon's speed that is much spoken about by both himself and his opponents. i think his power is much of an exception and not the rule. i don't think he would even depend upon physical power to beat batman he knows he's way outclassed in that sector. i also don't think Connor is a solid standard to measure Drakon's strength stats. but i think we both agree batman gets beaten here

I think I can agree with this however we don't really have any other top fighters to gauge drakons abilities with besides connor.

agreed. Drakon is not much exposed to other heavyweights so the extent of his skills is not clearly known. i saw an alliance they had with deathstroke. have you read that?

#34 Posted by bump1010 (299 posts) - - Show Bio

@grimlock:Nope I haven't read that but I do know what you are talking about.

#35 Posted by Stronger (4948 posts) - - Show Bio

@bump1010: Mostly batarangs and smoke pellets to distract him.I think he can beat straight h2h though.

#36 Posted by Cochise (707 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah, Batman wins this. Drakon isn't as skilled as him, period. And Batman's superiority in skill will more than compensate for any minor speed advantage Drakon may have.

#37 Edited by Alexander505 (2164 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman win, because it has gadgets, very endurance armor, and is at least as good like Drakon in the martial arts.

Oh, and Bruce is much smarter (intelligence is always important in a fight) and stronger (Bruce is a peak human, class 1000 + lbs) than Drakon...

#38 Posted by bump1010 (299 posts) - - Show Bio

@Stronger said:

@bump1010: Mostly batarangs and smoke pellets to distract him.I think he can beat straight h2h though.

Drakon is probably going to dodge those batarangs. He catches entire quivers of arrows effortlessly so I can't see batarangs slowing him down. Smoke pellets might work but if he throws them from a range drakon is probably going to shoot them out of the air with his guns, where as if there up close I don't see batman getting a chance to use them. What makes you believe batman will win a straight up hand to hand fight.

@Cochise said:

Yeah, Batman wins this. Drakon isn't as skilled as him, period. And Batman's superiority in skill will more than compensate for any minor speed advantage Drakon may have.

Drakons speed advantage is more then minor.

#39 Edited by Alexander505 (2164 posts) - - Show Bio

@Alexander505 said:

Batman win, because it has gadgets, very endurance armor, and is at least as good like Drakon in the martial arts.

Oh, and Bruce is much smarter (intelligence is always important in a fight) and stronger (Bruce is a peak human, class 1000 + lbs) than Drakon...

I add in addition, that Drakon has never managed to beat Lady Shiva or stalled against Karate Kid. Batman did.

Drakon has a better chance of winning, if Bruce is not equipped with any gadget (gas, ultrasound), and above all, without armor.

#40 Edited by k4tzm4n (48653 posts) - - Show Bio

@Alexander505 said:

@Alexander505 said:

Batman win, because it has gadgets, very endurance armor, and is at least as good like Drakon in the martial arts.

Oh, and Bruce is much smarter (intelligence is always important in a fight) and stronger (Bruce is a peak human, class 1000 + lbs) than Drakon...

I add in addition, that Drakon has never managed to beat Lady Shiva. Batman did.

Drakon has never had the luxury of facing Lady Shiva, so that isn't exactly something to hold against him.

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#41 Posted by Alexander505 (2164 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n said:

@Alexander505 said:

@Alexander505 said:

Batman win, because it has gadgets, very endurance armor, and is at least as good like Drakon in the martial arts.

Oh, and Bruce is much smarter (intelligence is always important in a fight) and stronger (Bruce is a peak human, class 1000 + lbs) than Drakon...

I add in addition, that Drakon has never managed to beat Lady Shiva. Batman did.

Drakon has never had the luxury of facing Lady Shiva, so that isn't exactly something to hold against him.

Right.

#42 Posted by jashro44 (22796 posts) - - Show Bio

@Alexander505 said:

Batman win, because it has gadgets, very endurance armor, and is at least as good like Drakon in the martial arts.

Oh, and Bruce is much smarter (intelligence is always important in a fight) and stronger (Bruce is a peak human, class 1000 + lbs) than Drakon...

He still doesn't have an answer for his speed which allows him to catch multiple arrows with ease and cut people with knives before they even realize they were cut.

The armor does not make him immune to getting hurt by peak humans. Intellect could play a role, Drakon may not be as strong as batman but he is strong enough to hurt him, he launched connor through a door and not to mention he knows pressure point based attacks. And even so he does have knives so he can always cut bruce.

I add in addition, that Drakon has never managed to beat Lady Shiva or stalled against Karate Kid. Batman did.

Drakon has a better chance of winning, if Bruce is not equipped with any gadget (gas, ultrasound), and above all, without armor.

Batman stalled karate kid when he was sick and dying iirc. He beat lady shiva when she wasn't in control of her actions the rest of there fights they have been pretty even. But if were to compare Drakon to shiva then we would compare there performance against connor hawke.

As you can see connor cannot keep up with Constantine Drakon...He can't even land a blow.

Where as when connor fought lady shiva he does lose but he is able to land a few blows and not to mention he bloodies her up a bit.

Based off this Constantine drakon does seem better then lady shiva in hand to hand.

#43 Posted by Stronger (4948 posts) - - Show Bio

@bump1010: Batman has remote control batarangs.And even if Drakon was able to shoot something as small as a pellet(he doesn't have such accuracy skills) it will create smoke.Batman has beaten great martial artists and given Deathstroke a run for his money more than once.

#44 Edited by Moon_Bat_87 (719 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

I add in addition, that Drakon has never managed to beat Lady Shiva or stalled against Karate Kid. Batman did.

Drakon has a better chance of winning, if Bruce is not equipped with any gadget (gas, ultrasound), and above all, without armor.

Batman stalled karate kid when he was sick and dying iirc. He beat lady shiva when she wasn't in control of her actions the rest of there fights they have been pretty even. But if were to compare Drakon to shiva then we would compare there performance against connor hawke.

Where as when connor fought lady shiva he does lose but he is able to land a few blows and not to mention he bloodies her up a bit.

Based off this Constantine drakon does seem better then lady shiva in hand to hand.

Batman has fought Karate Kid twice:

Also just because Lady Shiva was under mind control does not mean that she was not fighting to the best of her abilities.

Connor got two kicks in the fight, and Lady Shiva was bloodied at first because she crashed through the first window. She was no worse for wear at the end of the fight.

And when Batman drew with her in a fight and defeated her, he beat her far more soundly than Connor would have.

Here are the two fights I could find:

#45 Posted by WaveMotionCannon (5530 posts) - - Show Bio

Drakon

#46 Posted by jashro44 (22796 posts) - - Show Bio

@Moon_Bat_87: One of those karate kid was sick and dying and the other one is pis for obvious reasons. If karate kid was really trying he would beat batman in seconds.

Connor managed to block and keep up with shiva for pages. I'm not saying connor is a better fighter then batman I'm saying he is on his level.

The first fight you posted is there death in the family fight where he won with jasons interference. They were even up until that point. The second one as previously mentioned shiva was mind controlled. In the exact same story line grundy was also mind controlled and when he was released from mind control he got confused and batman beat him as a result. It is possible the same thing happened when batman beat shiva. And also Grodds personality was influencing grundy at the time as well. and effecting the out come (grundy attempted to drown batman as opposed to just smashing him) so there is evidence that shivas skill were affected by that mind control. For the record I do consider batman to be a little bit better then lady shiva however as I have said above I don't think he would stomp connor hawke. He would beat him and handily but not the same way drakon was.

#47 Posted by bump1010 (299 posts) - - Show Bio

@Stronger said:

@bump1010: Batman has remote control batarangs.And even if Drakon was able to shoot something as small as a pellet(he doesn't have such accuracy skills) it will create smoke.Batman has beaten great martial artists and given Deathstroke a run for his money more than once.

When did batman get remote controlled batarangs? Has he used them more then once? Drakon was almost hitting green arrow when his eyes were covered so he is probably a good enough shot to shoot pellets out of the air. And I am saying he can shoot the pellet before it reaches him and even if he can't he does have accuracy feats of shooting blind as I mentioned so I don't think smoke is a big distraction here. Batman gave deathstroke a run for his money once as I recall it. There second encounter under chuck dixon showed that slade was better then batman by having him have multiple opportunities to kill him iirc. He wont in the end sure but slade was clearly dominant. Personally I think Drakon has the feats to give slade a tough fight, I don't think he would beat deathstroke for the majority but I do think he can give slade a good fight as well.

#48 Posted by Moon_Bat_87 (719 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@Moon_Bat_87: One of those karate kid was sick and dying and the other one is pis for obvious reasons. If karate kid was really trying he would beat batman in seconds.

Connor managed to block and keep up with shiva for pages. I'm not saying connor is a better fighter then batman I'm saying he is on his level.

The first fight you posted is there death in the family fight where he won with jasons interference. They were even up until that point. The second one as previously mentioned shiva was mind controlled. In the exact same story line grundy was also mind controlled and when he was released from mind control he got confused and batman beat him as a result. It is possible the same thing happened when batman beat shiva. And also Grodds personality was influencing grundy at the time as well. and effecting the out come (grundy attempted to drown batman as opposed to just smashing him) so there is evidence that shivas skill were affected by that mind control. For the record I do consider batman to be a little bit better then lady shiva however as I have said above I don't think he would stomp connor hawke. He would beat him and handily but not the same way drakon was.

There is no evidence to show that Karate Kid against Batman in a hand to hand contest, that Karate Kid would defeat Batman in seconds. Since it seems everything is based on pure feats and scans, those two fights are all we have to show that it would not be a stomp or a one shot KO in favour of Karate Kid.

I agree, Batman did win in the first fight because of Jason. However, the fight was darn even. In the second fight, there is no evidence that Shiva's skills were effected by mind control. Your argument that because Grundy didnt smash Batman and rather attempted to drown him doesnt really carry too much weight because Grundy has tried similar things before. Plus Grundy's fighting skills were not directly effected so why assume Shiva's were? I apologize if this paragraph comes across rude, it is not intentional.

I dont think he would stomp Connor either. And I agree he would beat him handily, just like Shiva did.

#49 Posted by Cochise (707 posts) - - Show Bio

@Moon_Bat_87 said:

In the second fight, there is no evidence that Shiva's skills were effected by mind control.

Agreed. She wasn't stumbling along like a zombie. And in comics mind control does not automatically mean the person becomes incompetent.

#50 Posted by jashro44 (22796 posts) - - Show Bio

@Moon_Bat_87 said:

@jashro44 said:

@Moon_Bat_87: One of those karate kid was sick and dying and the other one is pis for obvious reasons. If karate kid was really trying he would beat batman in seconds.

Connor managed to block and keep up with shiva for pages. I'm not saying connor is a better fighter then batman I'm saying he is on his level.

The first fight you posted is there death in the family fight where he won with jasons interference. They were even up until that point. The second one as previously mentioned shiva was mind controlled. In the exact same story line grundy was also mind controlled and when he was released from mind control he got confused and batman beat him as a result. It is possible the same thing happened when batman beat shiva. And also Grodds personality was influencing grundy at the time as well. and effecting the out come (grundy attempted to drown batman as opposed to just smashing him) so there is evidence that shivas skill were affected by that mind control. For the record I do consider batman to be a little bit better then lady shiva however as I have said above I don't think he would stomp connor hawke. He would beat him and handily but not the same way drakon was.

There is no evidence to show that Karate Kid against Batman in a hand to hand contest, that Karate Kid would defeat Batman in seconds. Since it seems everything is based on pure feats and scans, those two fights are all we have to show that it would not be a stomp or a one shot KO in favour of Karate Kid.

I agree, Batman did win in the first fight because of Jason. However, the fight was darn even. In the second fight, there is no evidence that Shiva's skills were effected by mind control. Your argument that because Grundy didnt smash Batman and rather attempted to drown him doesnt really carry too much weight because Grundy has tried similar things before. Plus Grundy's fighting skills were not directly effected so why assume Shiva's were? I apologize if this paragraph comes across rude, it is not intentional.

I dont think he would stomp Connor either. And I agree he would beat him handily, just like Shiva did.

Again he was sick and dying in the first and the second is pis...I have seen scans of karate kid dancing around mon-el and demolishing an iceberg in 1 punch which was thousands of tons big. I'm not an expert on the character but all I hear about him is how he fights kryptonians. Batman cannot fight kryptonians. If karate kid was at 100%, if he was really trying, batman would lose quickly.

The paragraph is not rude so there is no need to apologize, but I don't see how grundy was unaffected by the mind control. Batman even states it himself. Grundy is talking in a different manor when mind control then he was when he was released from control. I'm pretty sure batman and superman even comment on how different monguel and grundy were acting afterwards. And grundy does not attempt to drown people normally, he is a mindless brute and always goes for punches. He isn't one to go for tactics at all (at least the dumb incarnation they were using in that fight) so he was acting differently is the point.

Just look at the scans. Grodds is having influence on grundy so why wouldn't he have an influence on shiva? Batman even remarks that his voice pattern has changed when grodd releases him from mind control. Its possible that since grodd was controlling shivas actions she wasn't in control of her skill and therefore wasn't fighting to the best of her abilities.

OK so you agree with me that connor would put up a decent fight against batman correct (with batman taking a large majority)? And you agree with me constantine drakon was beating connor with ease? So do you agree with me that drakon would win the majority here against batman?