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#1 Posted by Strider92 (16253 posts) - - Show Bio

John Constantine and Zatanna

Vs

Loki and Enchantress:

  • Morals On
  • 1 Day of prep
  • Win by Death, KO or Incap

Location:

#2 Posted by Hyperlight (5705 posts) - - Show Bio

Loki and enchantress both strump them in pysical attributes and experience. feats I cant say because i dont know too much about Zatanna or Constantine but i dont see team 1 winning.

If I was a sorcerer i wouldnt expect to be able to beat someone who has been doing the same thing for thousands of years.

#3 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

Gods.

#4 Posted by Sethlol (1296 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1 in a tough battle.

#5 Posted by ChaosMarvel (997 posts) - - Show Bio

@Hyperlight said:

Loki and enchantress both strump them in pysical attributes and experience. feats I cant say because i dont know too much about Zatanna or Constantine but i dont see team 1 winning.

If I was a sorcerer i wouldnt expect to be able to beat someone who has been doing the same thing for thousands of years.

The team can't match Loki or Enchantress in physical aspects but that day of prep does even the odds. Constantine is very good with prep probably better than Batman except he uses magic. He is also very cunning he once managed to talk the Presence into resurrecting him when he died. Taking on gods isn't anything new to him and with Zatanna's magic to back him up Team 1 have a very good shot at wining.

#6 Posted by ComicVineAddict23 (186 posts) - - Show Bio

@jeanroygrant said:

Gods.

#7 Posted by beatboks1 (7143 posts) - - Show Bio

Constantine could take either one (he'd defeated more powerful and more experienced). I doubt however he'd take both and Zatanna is the weak link in team 1. I just don't see her lasting long enough to give John a chance to take on out before the other would be on him. Team 2 but by the skin of their teeth.

#8 Posted by GreenFuse (295 posts) - - Show Bio

Loki and Enchantress.

#9 Posted by TheThe (1730 posts) - - Show Bio

Loki or Enchantress solo. Zatanna is for no-use here. Constantine usually wins with tricks, and i dont count it like feats because it's very often PIS or poor writing.

#10 Posted by Jayfournines (4024 posts) - - Show Bio

This would be an AMAZING battle. I gotta go with Constantine and Zatanna with one day of prep; the man has even tricked the Prescence. Loki would most likely underestimate John due to him being a simple human.

#11 Posted by Billy Batson (57939 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheThe said:

Loki or Enchantress solo. Zatanna is for no-use here. Constantine usually wins with tricks, and i dont count it like feats because it's very often PIS or poor writing.

Hellblazer having poor writing? PFFFFFT.
BB

#12 Posted by JonSmith (3996 posts) - - Show Bio

@ChaosMarvel said:

The team can't match Loki or Enchantress in physical aspects but that day of prep does even the odds. Constantine is very good with prep probably better than Batman except he uses magic. He is also very cunning he once managed to talk the Presence into resurrecting him when he died. Taking on gods isn't anything new to him and with Zatanna's magic to back him up Team 1 have a very good shot at wining.

Hm... For some reason, this makes me want to see a battle between Loki and Constantine where in order to win they have to manipulate each other into defeating themselves. So Constantine would have to trick Loki into beating Loki, Loki would have to trick Constantine into beating Constantine.

#13 Posted by Jayfournines (4024 posts) - - Show Bio

@Billy Batson said:

@TheThe said:

Loki or Enchantress solo. Zatanna is for no-use here. Constantine usually wins with tricks, and i dont count it like feats because it's very often PIS or poor writing.

Hellblazer having poor writing? PFFFFFT.
BB

This

#14 Edited by Strider92 (16253 posts) - - Show Bio

@JonSmith said:

Hm... For some reason, this makes me want to see a battle between Loki and Constantine where in order to win they have to manipulate each other into defeating themselves. So Constantine would have to trick Loki into beating Loki, Loki would have to trick Constantine into beating Constantine.

Ha in that would be fun to see. John is really clever when it comes to that sort of thing though. As Chaos said he did talk the Presence into resurrecting him and because he was dying of lung cancer and one of the Lord of Hell was going to claim his soul he made a deal with another one or two so that when he died they all had a claim to his soul and ended up fighting so much among themselves that the only answer they came to was cure him of his lung cancer and bring him back to life that way no-one would have his soul to fight about lol.

He's one devious little SOB.

#15 Posted by JonSmith (3996 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strider92 said:

@JonSmith said:

Hm... For some reason, this makes me want to see a battle between Loki and Constantine where in order to win they have to manipulate each other into defeating themselves. So Constantine would have to trick Loki into beating Loki, Loki would have to trick Constantine into beating Constantine.

Ha in that would be fun to see. John is really clever when it comes to that sort of thing though. As Chaos said he did talk the Presence into resurrecting him and because he was dying of lung cancer and one of the Lord of Hell was going to claim his soul he made a deal with another one or two so that when he died they all had a claim to his soul and ended up fighting so much among themselves that the only answer they came to was cure him of his lung cancer and bring him back to life that way no-one would have his soul to fight about lol.

He's one devious little SOB.

As is Loki. Just started reading Hellblazer, (getting sidetracked into Lucifer), so not too sure on Constantine's full capabilities yet, but Loki's the God of Lies for a reason. Bringer of Ragnarok and all that.

Granted, outwitting a bunch of people whose method of solving problems is "BAH!" *smash problem* isn't exactly a feat of great skill, but Loki makes due.

#16 Edited by Strider92 (16253 posts) - - Show Bio

@JonSmith said:

Just started reading Hellblazer,

Nice. Hellblazer is a pretty good read :). As are his appearances in DCU. John trolling Batman made me smile:

#17 Posted by karrob (4279 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jayfournines said:

This would be an AMAZING battle. I gotta go with Constantine and Zatanna with one day of prep; the man has even tricked the Prescence. Loki would most likely underestimate John due to him being a simple human.

Agreed!

#18 Posted by slacker the hacker (7835 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jayfournines said:

This would be an AMAZING battle. I gotta go with Constantine and Zatanna with one day of prep; the man has even tricked the Prescence. Loki would most likely underestimate John due to him being a simple human.

#19 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

@slacker the hacker said:

@Jayfournines said:

This would be an AMAZING battle. I gotta go with Constantine and Zatanna with one day of prep; the man has even tricked the Prescence. Loki would most likely underestimate John due to him being a simple human.

When has he tricked the Presence ? How do you trick someone that's omnipotent. That has to be extremely bad writing.

#20 Posted by Jayfournines (4024 posts) - - Show Bio

@jeanroygrant said:

@slacker the hacker said:

@Jayfournines said:

This would be an AMAZING battle. I gotta go with Constantine and Zatanna with one day of prep; the man has even tricked the Prescence. Loki would most likely underestimate John due to him being a simple human.

When has he tricked the Presence ? How do you trick someone that's omnipotent. That has to be extremely bad writing.

Have you ever read hellblazer?

#21 Posted by Mattersuit (4270 posts) - - Show Bio

Constantine and Zatanna.

Zatanna's even the weak link, but Constantine has the prep to pick up the slack.

#22 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jayfournines said:

@jeanroygrant said:

@slacker the hacker said:

@Jayfournines said:

This would be an AMAZING battle. I gotta go with Constantine and Zatanna with one day of prep; the man has even tricked the Prescence. Loki would most likely underestimate John due to him being a simple human.

When has he tricked the Presence ? How do you trick someone that's omnipotent. That has to be extremely bad writing.

Have you ever read hellblazer?

Na.

#23 Edited by Strider92 (16253 posts) - - Show Bio

@jeanroygrant said:

When has he tricked the Presence ? How do you trick someone that's omnipotent. That has to be extremely bad writing.

He didn't trick him per se. It was more like he talked him into bringing him back to life. No trickery was involved as such Constantine literally just stated the obvious.

To sum it up briefly he died and his soul was bound for Hell before he went however he ended up chatting with the Presence and simply stated that if he went to Hell he would turn that place upside down and become its new master easily. The Presence knowing this is exactly what would happen decided it was better for John to keep on living rather than have a ludicrously overpowered Hell Lord running around and he would have been overpowered if the even the Presence saw fit to bring him back rather than let him go to hell.

#24 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strider92 said:

@jeanroygrant said:

When has he tricked the Presence ? How do you trick someone that's omnipotent. That has to be extremely bad writing.

He didn't trick him per se. It was more like he talked him into bringing him back to life. No trickery was involved as such Constantine literally just stated the obvious.

To sum it up briefly he died and his soul was bound for Hell before he went however he ended up chatting with the Presence and simply stated that if he went to Hell he would turn that place upside down and become its new master easily. The Presence knowing this is exactly what would happen decided it was better for John to keep on living rather than have a ludicrously overpowered Hell Lord running around and he would have been overpowered if the even the Presence saw fit to bring him back rather than let him go to hell.

I see, he's powerful.

#25 Posted by DocFatalis (1419 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strider92 said:

@jeanroygrant said:

When has he tricked the Presence ? How do you trick someone that's omnipotent. That has to be extremely bad writing.

He didn't trick him per se. It was more like he talked him into bringing him back to life. No trickery was involved as such Constantine literally just stated the obvious.

To sum it up briefly he died and his soul was bound for Hell before he went however he ended up chatting with the Presence and simply stated that if he went to Hell he would turn that place upside down and become its new master easily. The Presence knowing this is exactly what would happen decided it was better for John to keep on living rather than have a ludicrously overpowered Hell Lord running around and he would have been overpowered if the even the Presence saw fit to bring him back rather than let him go to hell.

That was a really cool moment in comics, especially when he tells god that he gives him 500 years max before he becomes the ruler of hell...

#26 Posted by Strider92 (16253 posts) - - Show Bio

@DocFatalis: Yeah lol not many people get to talk to God like that. John as the ruler of hell would be damn scary.

#27 Posted by TheThe (1730 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jayfournines said:

@Billy Batson said:

@TheThe said:

Loki or Enchantress solo. Zatanna is for no-use here. Constantine usually wins with tricks, and i dont count it like feats because it's very often PIS or poor writing.

Hellblazer having poor writing? PFFFFFT.
BB

This

Yes, his tricks are poor. Only naives ones would think Constantine could beat so easily entities with those lame games.

#28 Posted by queenfrost_ (2499 posts) - - Show Bio

It will be a tough battle, but ultimately Team 1. Constantine would play Loki at his own game whilst Zatanna would counteract every attack the Enchantress had.

#29 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

@DocFatalis said:

@Strider92 said:

@jeanroygrant said:

When has he tricked the Presence ? How do you trick someone that's omnipotent. That has to be extremely bad writing.

He didn't trick him per se. It was more like he talked him into bringing him back to life. No trickery was involved as such Constantine literally just stated the obvious.

To sum it up briefly he died and his soul was bound for Hell before he went however he ended up chatting with the Presence and simply stated that if he went to Hell he would turn that place upside down and become its new master easily. The Presence knowing this is exactly what would happen decided it was better for John to keep on living rather than have a ludicrously overpowered Hell Lord running around and he would have been overpowered if the even the Presence saw fit to bring him back rather than let him go to hell.

That was a really cool moment in comics, especially when he tells god that he gives him 500 years max before he becomes the ruler of hell...

So basically he's saying he can kill the Devil, and take his position ?

#30 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

@queenfrost_ said:

It will be a tough battle, but ultimately Team 1. Constantine would play Loki at his own game whilst Zatanna would counteract every attack the Enchantress had.

Are you sure about that ?

#31 Posted by queenfrost_ (2499 posts) - - Show Bio

@jeanroygrant: Kinda...Zatanna is very underestimated in my opinion!

#32 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

@queenfrost_ said:

@jeanroygrant: Kinda...Zatanna is very underestimated in my opinion!

Yeah she is, but Enchantress is powerful !

#33 Posted by Jayfournines (4024 posts) - - Show Bio

@jeanroygrant said:

@DocFatalis said:

@Strider92 said:

@jeanroygrant said:

When has he tricked the Presence ? How do you trick someone that's omnipotent. That has to be extremely bad writing.

He didn't trick him per se. It was more like he talked him into bringing him back to life. No trickery was involved as such Constantine literally just stated the obvious.

To sum it up briefly he died and his soul was bound for Hell before he went however he ended up chatting with the Presence and simply stated that if he went to Hell he would turn that place upside down and become its new master easily. The Presence knowing this is exactly what would happen decided it was better for John to keep on living rather than have a ludicrously overpowered Hell Lord running around and he would have been overpowered if the even the Presence saw fit to bring him back rather than let him go to hell.

That was a really cool moment in comics, especially when he tells god that he gives him 500 years max before he becomes the ruler of hell...

So basically he's saying he can kill the Devil, and take his position ?

I doubt he could actually kill Lucifer, trick him someway? maybe, but outright kill him? I don't think so; in fact, even Morpheus had to resort to some sort of shenanigans to get away from hell and Lucifer.

#34 Posted by Jayfournines (4024 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheThe said:

@Jayfournines said:

@Billy Batson said:

@TheThe said:

Loki or Enchantress solo. Zatanna is for no-use here. Constantine usually wins with tricks, and i dont count it like feats because it's very often PIS or poor writing.

Hellblazer having poor writing? PFFFFFT.
BB

This

Yes, his tricks are poor. Only naives ones would think Constantine could beat so easily entities with those lame games.

only naives? O_o

#35 Posted by robertloucksjr (1723 posts) - - Show Bio

Loki/Enchantress takes this. He has a plethora of powers, survived getting his head cut off, and turned Odin's skyfather father Bor into a snow statue. He is tricky AND he has tons of power - mystical and physical. Enchantress is a notch below, but built of the same cloth. Silence spell on Zantanna, teleport Constantine into deep ocean/volcano/the sun and game over.

#36 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jayfournines said:

@jeanroygrant said:

@DocFatalis said:

@Strider92 said:

@jeanroygrant said:

When has he tricked the Presence ? How do you trick someone that's omnipotent. That has to be extremely bad writing.

He didn't trick him per se. It was more like he talked him into bringing him back to life. No trickery was involved as such Constantine literally just stated the obvious.

To sum it up briefly he died and his soul was bound for Hell before he went however he ended up chatting with the Presence and simply stated that if he went to Hell he would turn that place upside down and become its new master easily. The Presence knowing this is exactly what would happen decided it was better for John to keep on living rather than have a ludicrously overpowered Hell Lord running around and he would have been overpowered if the even the Presence saw fit to bring him back rather than let him go to hell.

That was a really cool moment in comics, especially when he tells god that he gives him 500 years max before he becomes the ruler of hell...

So basically he's saying he can kill the Devil, and take his position ?

I doubt he could actually kill Lucifer, trick him someway? maybe, but outright kill him? I don't think so; in fact, even Morpheus had to resort to some sort of shenanigans to get away from hell and Lucifer.

I see.

#37 Edited by queenfrost_ (2499 posts) - - Show Bio

@jeanroygrant: Zatanna is an extremely powerful sorceress. She defeated an Amazo that punked Superman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern and Steel, and she's the only mortal magic user who can summon the Spectre at will or teleport to his location no matter where he is. The only clear-cut incident that I can recall of someone resisting her magic was when the League fought Starbreaker, a sun-eating cosmic vampire. Zee summoned all of her power to try and erase him from existence, but he was only stunned and knocked back. Which is still something, considering Starbreaker was beating Superman and Flash without problems. Circe is a powerful witch (if you ask me, she's on Amora's level), but Zatanna has overpowered her. Doctor Fate could counter Zee depending on the version of Fate.

#38 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

@queenfrost_ said:

@jeanroygrant: Zatanna is an extremely powerful sorceress. She defeated an Amazo that punked Superman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern and Steel, and she's the only mortal magic user who can summon the Spectre at will or teleport to his location no matter where he is. The only clear-cut incident that I can recall of someone resisting her magic was when the League fought Starbreaker, a sun-eating cosmic vampire. Zee summoned all of her power to try and erase him from existence, but he was only stunned and knocked back. Which is still something, considering Starbreaker was beating Superman and Flash without problems. Circe is a powerful witch (if you ask me, she's on Amora's level), but Zatanna has overpowered her. Doctor Fate could counter Zee depending on the version of Fate.

#39 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (32993 posts) - - Show Bio

John takes it

#40 Edited by Billy Batson (57939 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheThe said:

@Jayfournines said:

@Billy Batson said:

@TheThe said:

Loki or Enchantress solo. Zatanna is for no-use here. Constantine usually wins with tricks, and i dont count it like feats because it's very often PIS or poor writing.

Hellblazer having poor writing? PFFFFFT.
BB

This

Yes, his tricks are poor. Only naives ones would think Constantine could beat so easily entities with those lame games.

Yet he has plenty of times under various writers.

BB

#41 Posted by Stronger (4948 posts) - - Show Bio

Loki solos

#42 Posted by beatboks1 (7143 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jayfournines said:

@jeanroygrant said:

@DocFatalis said:

@Strider92 said:

@jeanroygrant said:

When has he tricked the Presence ? How do you trick someone that's omnipotent. That has to be extremely bad writing.

He didn't trick him per se. It was more like he talked him into bringing him back to life. No trickery was involved as such Constantine literally just stated the obvious.

To sum it up briefly he died and his soul was bound for Hell before he went however he ended up chatting with the Presence and simply stated that if he went to Hell he would turn that place upside down and become its new master easily. The Presence knowing this is exactly what would happen decided it was better for John to keep on living rather than have a ludicrously overpowered Hell Lord running around and he would have been overpowered if the even the Presence saw fit to bring him back rather than let him go to hell.

That was a really cool moment in comics, especially when he tells god that he gives him 500 years max before he becomes the ruler of hell...

So basically he's saying he can kill the Devil, and take his position ?

I doubt he could actually kill Lucifer, trick him someway? maybe, but outright kill him? I don't think so; in fact, even Morpheus had to resort to some sort of shenanigans to get away from hell and Lucifer.

He already has "killed" the First of the Fallen ( The "Devil"), who by the way isn't Lucifer.

The First of the fallen (who was BTW the conscience of the Presence given form so that he could talk to him rather than hear him in his head) hatred John with a passion after being made a fool of (a few times). John gathered the artifacts and spells he needed and killed FoF making him mortal.

As fallen Spirit with John's knowledge of magic and the rules of everything it would be no problem for him to build the power to take over hell. He gave himself 500 years after all. And the omniscient Presence knew that he would eventually take over hell and that wouldn't be in his interests. he clearly thought Constantine would be a bigger problem as ruler of hell than any of the Hell lords in DCU's history)

@Stronger said:

Loki solos

Constantine has beaten more powerful beings than Loki, Neither Loki or Enchantress can take him one on one.

#43 Edited by TheThe (1730 posts) - - Show Bio

@Billy Batson said:

@TheThe said:

@Jayfournines said:

@Billy Batson said:

@TheThe said:

Loki or Enchantress solo. Zatanna is for no-use here. Constantine usually wins with tricks, and i dont count it like feats because it's very often PIS or poor writing.

Hellblazer having poor writing? PFFFFFT.
BB

This

Yes, his tricks are poor. Only naives ones would think Constantine could beat so easily entities with those lame games.

Yet he has plenty of times under various writers.

BB

What has the number of writers to do with the quality of Constantine feats ? The feats of the main character are not the only element which counts to note a graphic novel. Hellblazer is overall good because of : storylines, supporting characters, dialogues, dark and gritty "realness" of the art.But the way Constantine usually wins is not plausible based on the background of his opponents, because it's like they all are suddenly dumb and foolhardy as soon as they are confronted to him.

There are a lot of fights he shouldnt have won if the writers were properly running and respecting his challengers abilities and feats. It occurs to me Constantine has won so many times because it's the writers duty to make him win( in the same way Avengers won against the X-men), not because he is genuinely good at what he does or smarter than everybody from hell to heaven through purgatoy. Unlike Batman who is "believable" as a clever character, Constantine feats dont come naturally. It's often forced in my opinion.

That said, in the trickery area, Loki is way ahead John and on top of that Loki is basically a god. He's clever and more powerful than both John and Zatanna. Plus, as seen in the Justice League Dark from the new 52 under Peter Milligan run, Enchanteress is far more powerful than Zatanna and she has defeated her(and her whole JLD pre-Constantine in the new 52). Zatanna is the weak link since her backwards magic cant affect Loki nor Enchanteress.

#44 Posted by DocFatalis (1419 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheThe: How much of the Hellblazer series have you actually read? I'd like to know before I answer anything.

#45 Posted by TheThe (1730 posts) - - Show Bio

@DocFatalis said:

@TheThe: How much of the Hellblazer series have you actually read? I'd like to know before I answer anything.

Everything starting from Garth Ennis.

#46 Posted by Billy Batson (57939 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheThe said:

What has the number of writers to do with the quality of Constantine feats ?

The fact that it's just not in one accurance or it happenening in various writer runs?

@TheThe said:

The feats of the main character are not the only element which counts to note a graphic novel. Hellblazer is overall good because of : storylines, supporting characters, dialogues, dark and gritty "realness" of the art.

LOL ok.

@TheThe said:

But the way Constantine usually wins is not plausible based on the background of his opponents, because it's like they all are suddenly dumb and foolhardy as soon as they are confronted to him.

There are a lot of fights he shouldnt have won if the writers were properly running and respecting his challengers abilities and feats. It occurs to me Constantine has won so many times because it's the writers duty to make him win( in the same way Avengers won against the X-men), not because he is genuinely good at what he does or smarter than everybody from hell to heaven through purgatoy. Unlike Batman who is "believable" as a clever character, Constantine feats dont come naturally. It's often forced in my opinion.

Or he's just simply good with preparation?

@TheThe said:

That said, in the trickery area, Loki is way ahead John and on top of that Loki is basically a god. He's clever and more powerful than both John and Zatanna. Plus, as seen in the Justice League Dark from the new 52 under Peter Milligan run, Enchanteress is far more powerful than Zatanna and she has defeated her(and her whole JLD pre-Constantine in the new 52). Zatanna is the weak link since her backwards magic cant affect Loki nor Enchanteress.

Having a god title doesn't really mean anything when you've been defeated by non gods and John has done just that. And you've got the wrong Enchantress...

BB

#47 Posted by DocFatalis (1419 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheThe: Ok, so it will be a relatively long ranting and I apologize for it but:

Surely you have noticed that the Hellblazer world is a more realistic one than the usual Marvel or DC ones and that it lays the emphasis on the various aspects of the human soul and mind. For those reasons, all the deities depicted in it, good or bad, are just reflexions of the human behaviors and aspirations, this mostly because the original writer and those who picked up the torch after him are fairly convinced that men create gods and not the opposite. Global concept are neutral (like the Green) but gods just behave to suit human natures. In that regard, independently from their level of power or knowledge, they are fallible and can be baited by the same things that sometimes lure even the cleverest human beings into behaving stupidly or in ways harmful to them.

Enters Constantine: he has human weaknesses too, but recognizes them as they are and have made them his companions somehow. He stands ready and determined to do what it takes to achieve what he wants even if that means the sacrifice of others, and most oftenly the sacrifice of those he holds dear. In the end what he wants is to succeed in the current endeavor and then be left in peace to have ten (bad for him) pints and packs of cigarettes pondering about the giant bitter jokes life and death are.

In that context, it is not irrational that he uses and abuses of the flaws he shares with super powered entities to trick them in doing what he wants: he just understand the flaws in question at least as well as they do but stands ready to take advantage of any of those. The quintessential prick he is is perfectly in accordance with his environment and "rides the the coincidence" lines to the best of his interests.

You are right to say that it is the writers job to make him win, but writers desire would be more accurate as the entire Constantine adventure serves a metaphor about the human nature and how there is no good nor bad in us, just what we do and how well we do it. Con-Jhon is central to it in how he excels at tricking the others into whatever he wants.

So as a conclusion, I'd say that the way he defeats everyone in his universe according to the rules of the universe in question makes perfect sense, it's not poorly written, it just is in accordance with the limitations of any being in his universe. And it serves the story and metaphor, of course. And the story and metaphors are mainly why I buy books, otherwise I'd just spend my time comparing statistics about power levels in one field or an other, but that wouldn't be very much fun would it?

#48 Posted by Billy Batson (57939 posts) - - Show Bio

@DocFatalis:

Very well said :)

BB

#49 Edited by TheThe (1730 posts) - - Show Bio

@Billy Batson said:

@TheThe said:

What has the number of writers to do with the quality of Constantine feats ?

The fact that it's just not in one accurance or it happenening in various writer runs?

@TheThe said:

The feats of the main character are not the only element which counts to note a graphic novel. Hellblazer is overall good because of : storylines, supporting characters, dialogues, dark and gritty "realness" of the art.

LOL ok.

@TheThe said:

But the way Constantine usually wins is not plausible based on the background of his opponents, because it's like they all are suddenly dumb and foolhardy as soon as they are confronted to him.

There are a lot of fights he shouldnt have won if the writers were properly running and respecting his challengers abilities and feats. It occurs to me Constantine has won so many times because it's the writers duty to make him win( in the same way Avengers won against the X-men), not because he is genuinely good at what he does or smarter than everybody from hell to heaven through purgatoy. Unlike Batman who is "believable" as a clever character, Constantine feats dont come naturally. It's often forced in my opinion.

Or he's just simply good with preparation?

@TheThe said:

That said, in the trickery area, Loki is way ahead John and on top of that Loki is basically a god. He's clever and more powerful than both John and Zatanna. Plus, as seen in the Justice League Dark from the new 52 under Peter Milligan run, Enchanteress is far more powerful than Zatanna and she has defeated her(and her whole JLD pre-Constantine in the new 52). Zatanna is the weak link since her backwards magic cant affect Loki nor Enchanteress.

Having a god title doesn't really mean anything when you've been defeated by non gods and John has done just that. And you've got the wrong Enchantress...

BB

  1. Multiple writers and accurances are not an argument in this case. Like i said earlier, him winning his their duty. The point of view writers should have used to make his victories more "believable" is limitated by their obligation( him winning solely on trickery) :it is not enough in front of those he pretends to challenge(at least according to me).
  2. When the writer perspective is "flawed" from the beginning, the conclusion of each challenge Constantine is involved in brings the question of the legitimacy of his regular winnings. Knowing that his feats are only based on trickery, in my opinion the answer is clearly no in most of the cases.That is the idea i'm tryin to explain.
  3. I dont know what you're loling, it's not like i'm contradicting myselft. It's possible to separate my doubting of his feats from my appreciation of the overall work. For example, i like the tv show Supernatural, but i'm not that much convinced by Sam and Dean regular winnings for the same reasons : too much too bias from the start.
  4. By "god" i meant power. Even if i give you that Constantine is well prepared, he is only a human being relying on magical tools and "devices" to support his games. He doesnt have powers to back up his defense when he's out of tricks. In the other hand, Loki is the lord of manipulation. I sincerely doubt John can surprise him in such way. If i suppose so, it will be tie, and Loki natural powers would make the difference. Apologies for Enchantress(Marvel and DC should have named them differently) but it doesnt change my statement.
#50 Edited by TheThe (1730 posts) - - Show Bio

@DocFatalis said:

@TheThe: Ok, so it will be a relatively long ranting and I apologize for it but:

Surely you have noticed that the Hellblazer world is a more realistic one than the usual Marvel or DC ones and that it lays the emphasis on the various aspects of the human soul and mind. For those reasons, all the deities depicted in it, good or bad, are just reflexions of the human behaviors and aspirations, this mostly because the original writer and those who picked up the torch after him are fairly convinced that men create gods and not the opposite. Global concept are neutral (like the Green) but gods just behave to suit human natures. In that regard, independently from their level of power or knowledge, they are fallible and can be baited by the same things that sometimes lure even the cleverest human beings into behaving stupidly or in ways harmful to them.

Enters Constantine: he has human weaknesses too, but recognizes them as they are and have made them his companions somehow. He stands ready and determined to do what it takes to achieve what he wants even if that means the sacrifice of others, and most oftenly the sacrifice of those he holds dear. In the end what he wants is to succeed in the current endeavor and then be left in peace to have ten (bad for him) pints and packs of cigarettes pondering about the giant bitter jokes life and death are.

In that context, it is not irrational that he uses and abuses of the flaws he shares with super powered entities to trick them in doing what he wants: he just understand the flaws in question at least as well as they do but stands ready to take advantage of any of those. The quintessential prick he is is perfectly in accordance with his environment and "rides the the coincidence" lines to the best of his interests.

You are right to say that it is the writers job to make him win, but writers desire would be more accurate as the entire Constantine adventure serves a metaphor about the human nature and how there is no good nor bad in us, just what we do and how well we do it. Con-Jhon is central to it in how he excels at tricking the others into whatever he wants.

So as a conclusion, I'd say that the way he defeats everyone in his universe according to the rules of the universe in question makes perfect sense, it's not poorly written, it just is in accordance with the limitations of any being in his universe. And it serves the story and metaphor, of course. And the story and metaphors are mainly why I buy books, otherwise I'd just spend my time comparing statistics about power levels in one field or an other, but that wouldn't be very much fun would it?

Well written. At the very moment i regret not being that much fluent in english(french is my mother tongue) because i could have put an essay as an answer, but i lack words to fully explain my view on your contribution(also,my grammar and orthography mistakes) . Argh!

Back to your post, while i agree with your description of Hellblazer purpose and Constantine profile, i disagree with your conclusion and your statement about his ability to defeat his opponents naturally. Why ? Because i trully believe gods, demons and entities dealing with human beings are supposed to have better skills in trickery.

To me, trickery in Hellblazer books is a matter of : anticipation of your adversaries next movement, knowledge of your opponents and his kind, being neutral or lacking moral principles, and not having fear. In all of those areas, the majority of characters Constantine defeated were supposed to possess a better background than him.

Constantine is prick ? Demons and deities are better at it than him. Constantine knows the occult science ? Demons and deities are born in it, live in it, die in it. Constantine has a great understanding of entities world and species ? Entities are dealing with human and making contracts with them since the beginning of time. They have studied and tricked human for a longer period of time than Constantine doing it to them, since they are often immortals.

I'm not sayin a human being cant beat an entity. A human being can. But not on a regular basis like John Constantine is doing it. It's not plausible in my book. The fact that Constantine is ready to sacrifices everything should be a reason of he surprising demonkind, in the sense that he is one of the few humans who dont have the sentimental and emotional weakness of heart demons are playing with to trick humans.

But Entities have got plenty much of time to deal with humankind in all the different aspects of human personality. Do you really think people like the first of the fallen (who was walking earth and hell since centuries) have never meet a bunch of "Constantine-like" profiles ? That, without learning nothing from his failures, he would let the same guy beat him again and again ? That's the reason why i talked about a "writer duty" to make Constantine win everytime, while his opponents appears as strangely naives.