Comic Vine Battle of the Week VOTING: Moon Knight vs. Ra's al Ghul

You have no proof that i like Batman, his character is so boring, batarang this, grapnel hook that. I hope he dies for atleast 2 years.

Ironfist.

Next Batman Battle of the Month: Batman (1 year of prep) vs. Iron Fist (blind folded and shot in the thigh)

Lmfaoo. Ironfist with the stomp.

I guess I'd go with the one who has centuries of experience.

The premise of this being a random encounter would not fit with Ra's Al Ghul's profile. He doesn't get caught alone. So for Moon Knight to defeat Ra's, he would need to defeat his League of Assassin's and Ubu. It's a rather up hill battle in which Ra's would be able to study Moon Knight as he fought his way to him. I just don't see Moon Knight winning this encounter at all.

Ra's was beat by Nightwing and doesn't have a whole lot of impressive achievements on his end.

Love this battle. Wanted some exactly like this. Thank you, Comic Vine!

Moon Knight has a serious advantage with his kevlar/carbonium armor. The breast plate and bracers are made out of carbonium. So that means kill-stroke thrusts are out because of the plate. Or, any slash moves with serious heft risk the sword itself due to MK's nigh indestructible bracers. A well placed defection from those could break Ghul's regular old sword.

Outwith the carbonium advantage. As you can see here. The black parts of Moon Knight's current vestments still offer a fair degree of protection. A bullet fired from reasonably close range from a high caliber handgun only managed to graze Spector underneath it. While this isn't going to stop Ghul from doing damage if he manages to tag Spector in one of those places. It will at least limit it and Spector's noted damage soak would cover the rest.

I'd also like to mention that Moon Knight has displayed incredible reactions and marksmanship while wearing this armour. He can beat a highly trained marksman on the draw with his crescent darts and cut the bullet in half that was fired by said marksman with them. Even deflect bullets with his darts at close range. Between those, his bracers and his bo/truncheons. He's going to parry a lot of Ghul's sword attacks.

Another thing I'd like to bring up is that Moon Knight is a noted master of weapons. Including the weapon Ghul favours. He might not have a sword but he has a very good idea of what Ghul can do with one. He does have a ranged melee weapon (bo staff). Which he also has mastery of. He can deflect bullets like with his darts with his truncheon, daredevil style. I think he has him here as well. Spector is bigger threat to Ghul skill-wise than some are suggesting.

What about range? Moon Knight could conceivably go for an early win and just use the grapple to snatch the sword from Ghul's hands.

Or throw darts into Ghul's arms and wrists immobilizing him. Why not? Moon Knight has displayed the relevant aim and reaction skills to accomplish that. He's a highly accurate bullet-timer with ranged weapons and kickass armour. I think he has this.

Moon Knight does have a sword as part of his current equipment (see bottom). It's called a 'khopesh' (learned that today). It's Egyptian (well, it would be. Wouldn't it?). So he could even just go for a straight sword fight with Ghul. While old Ra's does have an advantage in experience. Spector does have armor as well as a sword and skill. So I think he could hang with him in sword fight with Spector's bag of tricks and armor taking the majority in the end.

Weapons: Although moon knight might have a more versatile arsenal of projectiles and silvet night sticks if im not mistaken. Ra has his sword which he can use to impressive effect. I think Ra's sword will give him the advantage.

Hand To hand: With the weapons i believe Ra will be the superior here with his sword but if it comes down to a fist to fist confrontation i think moon knight is either on par or inferior in skill and physically superior to Ra which will compensate and allow Moon night to pound on him in a fist to fist battle but he will get slashed up if he ain't careful.

Skill: I personally think Ra is more skilled, he does lead arguably the greatest band of assassins and is very experienced with battle tactics. Moon knight has his battle tactics but i dont see them being anything that would make me rate him over Ra here.

Physicals: Moon night simply wins here, moon knight is peak human on a bad night and on a good night is superhuman, moon knight is also very acrobatic and makes good use of this is battle. He simply out does ra here.

Endurance: Moon night wins here again, i think moon knight will be relentless and take enough just enough to win this battle.

Based on this i say Moon knighy in a uphill battle.

Moony

Moon Knight.

The only area in which I see Ra's having a clear advantage in a physical confrontation would be swordsmanship. In every other area Moon Knight holds superiority...and with his gear he has no reason to engage Ra's with a sword.

Ra's

Why?

Let us look at this from another way.

First, we determine what the most important things are for victory in this battle.

Speed/Combat Speed > Intelligence/Combat Experience > Durability > Damage output > Strength.

The reason being that all else being equal, The higher ranked traits would skew victory more to the one who possessed the advantage

Advantage Raa's:

Speed:

I feel that Raas has the advantage in the first two traits by a decent margin. Raa's is peak human in stats and lightly armored, while Marc is much more heavily armored and also peak human.

Intelligence and Combat skills:

and battle experience will go to Raa's if only for his long history and masochistic choice of sparring partner.

Advantage Moon Knight:

Damage output:

Marc has far more ways to dish out the pain in ranged combat, and can take far more damage before he goes down. But, MK is no Bane. And Bane found out just how good Raa's is with his blades up close. If both had the same armor, MK would win a hard earned majority.

Durability:

MK's armor makes it hard for him to be mortally wounded by Raa's, but it will make him likely to get tagged much more often. Baseline strength is even imho.

Conclusion:

Marc has the range advantage, and the armor and gear. He was made to be an anti Batman by Doug Moench. And that is why he will fall to Raa's. MK may fight to kill, but raa's often plays with Batman because he will not go for the kill. That will not be the case for a random fight. Raa's can dodge or use the enviornmen to get in close. And he has the dominant advantage in CQC.

Just by their basic loadout, and Marc not sporting his Carbonium, this should squeak to Raa's. He may need to go back to whatever he uses now that the pits are gone, but he will live through the encounter.

If Ra's can't beat normal Batman in a battle, then how can we expect him to beat his crazier, more brutal twin? Nuff said. And dadgum it @hit_monkey I was going to vote for you on Best Argument for Moon Knight but then you decided to use scans. I guess I'll have to go @luciustheeternal now.

@vandinejd_1991: I would not choose my argument, there is really nothing to it lol.

a seriously hope we get a Moon Knight vs Captain America fight next week or the week after. I want to see the debate on that fight.

I think it is difficult to decide this one. A lot of people seem to be going off the fact that Ra's always loses but he is a villain. Of course he always loses. Moon Knight is the hero of his stories so naturally he would win all of them in the end. Even comparing feats is difficult in this instance for that reason. Just going off feats alone, then it has to be MK. If we go off the character's supposed fighting prowess then I'd go with Ra's al Ghul. I guess I'll vote "too close to call."

Biases aside this a great fight and it really made me think on the characters and their respective abilities: That said, it's more cut and dry than expected.

Ra's age aside (400+yrs old), he's fighting a man who's inhabited by Khonshu (warshipped for far longer) which would level the playing field as it were. If you look at the skills of each combatant and some of the weaponry, you'd think it a fight that will be close and extremely personal. However, Ra's al Ghul plays a thinking man's game and he wont be mortally wounding and leaving MK in a heap like you'd think. Marc will be at play with Ra's arrogance and emerge Jet, black, and blue but ultimately seal Ra's fate. It will come down to not fighting prowess but a willingness to kill. Ra's wont take Marc seriously, nor will he understand his willingness to kill on random encounter. Once they are both disarmed and brawling it will end with a suprising victory. The recent series outlines MK's instincts in many ways, and one happens to use gear which falls under this post's guidelines.

The match could very well be over before it begins and here's why:

In issue #1 MK faces the "Slasher". Upon entering a room with a dart at the ready he swings the door open revealing the killer he'd been looking for. After a conversation and a quick dodge or two, you realize he had hit him with a crescent dart. Well he did actually threw one pages beforehand, and it was an act of pure art by Declan Shalvey. Right as he swung the door open, he sent the dart right into the Slasher. When the killer asks him how he planned on stopping him (arrogance), MK responds by telling him "I stopped you two minutes go" "look down". He had hit the enemies vitals without him even knowing.

Ra's has stomped Tim Drake, given Batman good fights a few times, given Nightwing a good fight and probably has many other showings I'm forgetting.

That said, I'm not sure who to vote for.

Excuse my ignorance but where do you vote on Viner arguments for this battle?

Just bring it to my attention. Quote them and @ me would be best. I read the full debate, but it's always best to know in advance if there's very good arguments.

Moon Knight - I can go into further detail as to why, but I'd truly love to see someone make somewhat of a case for Ra's.

@k4tzm4n: Ah. Thanks, mate. Yer a diamond.

I do not think anyone is really a Ras fan much less can make a case for him :)

That seems to be the main problem here - people are claiming that Ra's would win due to him being incredibly experienced due to his longevity yet I've never seen anything from Ra's that would make him TOO much of a threat for Moon Knight.

I can't help but feel I'm selling Ra's short - but like I said, I'd love to see someone make a case for him, even if it doesn't happen I can still hope!

Marc

Moony. If someone could share some Ra's scans and info I'd be more sure but from where I'm standing Marc has a advantage in durability, endurance, and his versatility in range and up close.

@hit_monkey: Was that scene with his khopesh from a preview of next issue or something?

Anyway, I'm still waiting to hear more about Ra's. I've looked around for good scans of his and haven't found much. Which isn't to say there isn't anything, I just can't find it.

He may have given Batman some good fights, but Ra's has also lost pretty decisively:

Gallery

and

Gallery

I don't know the context behind those fights, but you don't lose much more than that.

Here are some fights Marc has been in that involve swords.

Here he takes down Bushman pretty easily. Bushman has 2 swords, MK has nunchucks, has only slept 3 out of the last 72 hours, and has been beaten up a lot just previously. Now Bushman is NOWHERE NEAR the swordsman Ra's is supposed to be, so this is not a perfectly analogous fight. But, MK dodges multiple sword slashes before taking Busman down with just his fists. He's clearly at home fighting a swordsman with a blunt weapon and/or his hands.

Gallery

Here he fights Lupinar, an admittedly no-name villain who says he's a master sword fighter. He and Marc both have swords. Marc acrobatically dodges some sword slashes. The guy manages to get a kick in and Marc drops his sword, but then Marc has a pretty awesome feat--he throws a crescent that knocks Lupinar's sword out of his hand, against a wall, and bouncing it back into Moon Knight's hand--that's the kind of targeting feat Cyclops would be proud of. Then, realizing he's going to lose, Lupinar kills himself on Marc's sword. This disarming/re-arming himself feat is pretty solid and certainly the kind of thing Moon Knight could use in this fight.

Gallery

Just to give a little more context, though, MK doesn't dodge everything. Here he, Shang Chi, Daredevil, and Luke Cage are fighting Zaran and a bunch of ninjas. Zaran is a kind of no-name guy but fairly skilled and has at least given Shang Chi a decent fight. Here, Marc (in the black short and white pants) does a pretty good job taking Zaran, who is fighting with edged weapons, while Marc has a 3-piece pole, down. But, then Zaran throws FOUR knives into Marc. Not an awesome job of dodging on Moon Knight's part. Shang Chi even says "you were not adept enough to face Zaran." So this is kind of a low point for Marc in terms of skills; again I just want to show this in terms of context. We've seen plenty of scans here and last week where Marc does a fantastic job dodging/parrying and fighting, I just want to show that he's not perfect, so I can imagine Ra's or someone else of high skill getting in some hits. BUT, at the end of the scan Marc has a good showing after all--he points out that even though he just got hit by 4 throwing knives--one in the arm, one in the ribs, one in the gut, and one in the lower abdomen/groin, most of which look pretty serious--he then says "Nothing vital was hit. I've had worse." So, a pretty great showing for him sloughing off pain and injury.

Gallery

And finally, here's Marc, with no gear, taking out a bunch of Hand ninjas, who all have swords. Later we see them all on the ground. (He has some help from some cops.)

So far, I feel like Marc has a pretty reasonable chance to win.

Yep. It's from a page from a preview of #5. Posted on the Moon Knight thread (here) the other day.

@tparks said:

This is a great battle and should make for a great discussion. First thing that comes to my head when I hear Moon Knight is fighting someone with a sword:

This looks pretty stupid. Both in theory, and in execution. Quite a crappy page if you ask me...

@surfingthehighway:

This looks pretty stupid. Both in theory, and in execution. Quite a crappy page if you ask me...

Thanks for the well thought out response. Lol.

That is swordsman he is beating in one page there. That's the guy who trained Hawkeye. Moon Knight was also injured, and had been on the run and worn down from fighting the Thunderbolts on his own before this. Pretty nice show of skill against a master Swordsman IMO.

That's my take on it at least.

Moon Knight

@tparks: I know who Swordsman is. That's why I consider it stupid; they could have had quite an interesting confrontation, but they chose to go for a gag instead. I don't think a tired MK could actually beat Swordsman in one hit. It is a biased fight, and so blatantly so, at least in my opinion.
The whole layout of the page just seems kinda sloppy to me, actually...

@surfingthehighway: Ahh, I see.. I actually think it's in Moon Knight's character to beat swordsman IMHO though. People sometimes forget that in his very first appearance he was introduced as knowing every martial arts style on Earth and has fought much tougher characters then just low level street level.

@tparks: No, I agree there, I'm also positive MK would win. I just think that when a fight consists of just one kick, then it's more of a joke than an actual battle. I get where you were going with this scan, though

Pretty sure Moon Knight would grab the blade of Ra's Al Ghul's sword with his hands and beat him to death with it.

Being as Batman would likely take a majority against Moon Knight in a random encounter, your point is invalid.

The reason that there are few feats for raa's is that he is a villain, and is used to show the capacities of the hero that would defeat them. The only feats you will find for Raa's relevant to this thread will be Raa's vs Bat-family members. And many people can spam those. Raa's has swatted arrows and darts from the air, he is not being outclassed by Moon Knight in any way.

@senglord: The continuous Batman comparisons aside, you aren't making any actual argument here. Moon Knight doesn't need to outclass him because he'll take more damage, use his brutality, and beat him to a pulp with his spiked knuckles. Hope the Lazarus Pits fall under AARP because Ra's taking the L on this one.

Moon Knight. His hand to hand combat skills are more than impresive. MK's fight wis Swordsman (MK won after taking a few skratches) is a bright example of how Spector can take on someone with a catana. Yet another great feat with swords is his fight wis Deadpool (MK takes on Wade after a short but furious battle).

Though Ra's ain't going down without a fight.

I still think that Moon Knight has the real advantage in this one. He has various projectiles, melee weapons, a grapple and bossman armour. That's just his equipment. He's got more showings as a H2H combatant outside of swordplay than Ghul. I think he could take him in a fist fight due to this. He's is also a stated master of all weapons including swordsmanship. While he hasn't the experience that Ghul has with a sword. He does have the stated skill to hang with him. I don't think Ghul could hang with Spector outside a sword fight and Spector has plenty of tricks up his sleeves to unarm him.

He's also a better mover than Ghul. He's far more agile and those projectiles of his can be hurled incredibly quickly. I've never really seen Moon Knight miss and he's pulled off some very impressive trickshots. He's an apparent master marksman. He will tag Ghul a lot. I mean, if he can slice bullets out the air? Though, If this was prep battle then I'd give the thing to Ghul hands down. He's an insane tactician but it's not, is it. It's a random encounter. That factor greatly diminishes the effectiveness of Ghul's best skill. His planning.

So Ghul has to fall a guy with his sword in a random encounter. A guy who's wearing very light, indestructible armour covering the best places to strike with a saber and some sort of kevlar covering the rest of his extremities. Who is a noted bullet-timer and has him beat on agility feats. Who is also a master swordsman and has various melee weapons that directly combat swords (bo staff for one) which he is also a master of. Who has more showings in fights outside of swordplay. Who has projectiles (including a gadget that could snatch the sword from Ghul's hands) that he can hurl with quick, precise aim while bullet-timing. Not only that, this guy's damage soak is probs the highest out of every non-powered hero.

I honestly don't understand how Ghul can actually win this battle? Why, because he's really, really good with a sword? Enough to get past all that, no prep? Just straight off the cuff??

Na, Moon Knight has this.

@hit_monkey: Hell. That was nice.

@cyberwarrior: Cheers, mate! Real nice of ya to say so. :D

I'm surprised that Ra's is getting a reasonable percentage in the polls (40% right now, about the same as what Green Arrow got) and that there's almost no serious, by which I mean detailed and specific, arguments for him yet. I get that he's a villain and villains usually have to lose. But c'mon, I could post great feats for the villains of, say, Spider-Man or Daredevil or Captain America. Ra's is a top Batman villain. He's got to have some decent feats out there that people aren't showing or describing--in more detail than, "he gave Batman a good fight" or "he's fast and has slightly superhuman physicals." Specifics!

@owie: I believe @morpheus_had a good collection of Ra's scans, but he's long gone and I have no desire to look through his extensive gallery.

The all wise Morpheus knew all though didn't he? :P Seriously, if he was still on here and wanted to make a case for Ra's, he'd probably end up convincing loads of people who were battle forum debaters.

I was thinking the same thing. How can a character get 40% of the vote if no one can make a case for him? Either people are just being lazy...or they are voting by character preference and not by an informed opinion.

Well I followed a trail of Ra's links, starting with trying to find anything Morpheus debated about on him (since I wasn't going to dig in his 17000 scans either).

Here's a couple fights I found. First Ra's and Batman fight for an hour without either winning. Obviously that's impressive. It's an old comic and there are those that discount stuff from that era, although I don't myself, or at least not completely.

Gallery

Second, here's Ra's and Nightwing, which ends with a clear win for Nightwing, and as someone said on another thread, that's especially poor for Ra's considering that it was a sword fight, which is Ra's's (I like the double apostrophe there!) specialty and not Grayson's.

Gallery

And if anyone really cares, here are links to some Ra's fights, some of which Morpheus debates in to some degree. I have to say that after reading through quite a few, I haven't seen much of an argument for him beyond, "he has sometimes beaten or stalemated Batman." Which is obviously good, but there don't seem to have been a lot of these good fights, and they are also balanced out by some clear losses (some of which I've posted earlier).

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/ra-s-al-ghul-vs-shredder-1524518/

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/catman-vs-ras-al-ghul-629708/

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/captain-america-vs-ras-al-ghul-634588/

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/bane-vs-ras-al-ghul-630207/

One specific piece of information, in terms of Ra's's enhanced strength, is that he says he has the strength of 10 men. Although that could easily be hyperbole.

The question for me is now, is Ra's as good as Nightwing? Worse? Equal? Clearly Nightwing can win some times, but consistently?

@hit_monkey: Ya welcome!)