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Posted by k4tzm4n (48812 posts) 1 year, 1 month ago

Poll: Comic Vine Battle of the Week VOTING: Gambit vs. Nightcrawler (459 votes)

Gambit 29%
Nightcrawler 65%
Too close to call 6%
Remy or Kurt? GET YOUR ELABORATION ON, VINERS!

Match Rules

  • Combatants are in character (this means morals are on, people).
  • This is a random encounter.
  • They're fighting in a generic downtown city setting. It's unpopulated, at night and all standard city lights remain on. Assume they start roughly 20 feet apart and visible. There's a fair amount of cover between them (parked vehicles, bus stops and such). The entire area is on limits. This means alleys, rooftops, building interiors, etc..
  • All characters have standard gear.
  • Incapacitation, knockout or death all count as elimination.
  • "But Nightcrawler is dead" isn't an original comment. This is obviously pre-death Kurt.
  • And speaking of death, Gambit's horseman powers will not come into play.

Viners, you have the week to research, debate and vote! This means there's no reason to vote right away if you don't have all of the info you need to make an educated decision. Check the homepage Friday for an updated article with the following:

  • My extended thoughts on the match.
  • A Viner Argument in favor of the poll's winner (can't include scans and must be in the poll thread).
  • Extra thoughts from other Comic Vine staffers.
  • If we're lucky, blurbs from industry talent.

Feel free to make future match suggestions in the comments below or via Gregg's Twitter page.

#151 Posted by JamDamage (1118 posts) - - Show Bio

Mister BAMF himself is kicking ass. This is a landslide.

#152 Edited by Yung ANcient One (4848 posts) - - Show Bio

Imma make a guess. Nightcrawler is more loved by X-Fans so he must be winning with the current votes.

LEts see.. if I'm wrong.

EDIT: OHH LANDSLIDE!

I think Imma start doing this. Guess before I vote.

( +)

#153 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (12346 posts) - - Show Bio

This is ridiculous, smh ......

#154 Edited by Lvenger (20704 posts) - - Show Bio

This is ridiculous, smh ......

At least people are actually making arguments and providing scans for Nightcrawler now. Though his absurd lead is a clear mark of popularity coming into play.

#155 Posted by Power NeXus (9899 posts) - - Show Bio
Strong enough to flip around grown men like ragdolls
Sets at least a half dozen explosives to a ten-second fuse, and places them all on Sentinels within nine seconds.
A couple of examples of him teleporting as rapidly as he can punch, decking three men before the first man hits the ground.
Dodges lasers at very close range and leads one enemy into shooting another.
This is, perhapds, one of Kurt's greatest feats of reaction time. The barrel of a gun is against his head, and he teleports away after the bullet is fired but before it leaves the barrel.

Strangely, not all of my scans wanted to show up in my post. Here are some more that I think could be relevant...

#156 Edited by Power NeXus (9899 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@ancient_0f_days said:

This is ridiculous, smh ......

At least people are actually making arguments and providing scans for Nightcrawler now. Though his absurd lead is a clear mark of popularity coming into play.

I wouldn't be too quick to call bias on a battle like this. Neither of these characters have ever had Batman-level popularity or anything, but Gambit usually has a larger fanbase than Nightcrawler does.

#157 Posted by RazzaTazz (9676 posts) - - Show Bio

@sc: If you are trying to appeal to my nostalgic side by invoking Errol Flynn then you have succeeded.

On a serious note though you have argued yourself into a corner ... literally. I hadn't even considered it before, but all that Gambit has to do is to stand in the corner of a room (or alleyway) thus taking away the advantage of the teleportation, because as you say "Nightcrawler can't teleport into solid things" (though the limits of that are kind of poorly defined as air is just as much composed of matter as a wall is). This would eliminate any benefit of a surprise attack from behind and Gambit with pre-charged kinetic energy piles could easily take him down. It should probably be edited into Nightcrawler's wiki page that his main weakness is people standing in corners.

Moderator Online
#158 Posted by Darkseid_Prime (171 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n: I was talking about the match rules part that says "This is a random encounter." At any rate BOTW still kicks ass and I thoroughly enjoy 99% of them.

#159 Edited by k4tzm4n (48812 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n: I was talking about the match rules part that says "This is a random encounter." At any rate BOTW still kicks ass and I thoroughly enjoy 99% of them.

Oh... I GET JOKES!

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#160 Edited by Lvenger (20704 posts) - - Show Bio

I wouldn't be too quick to call bias on a battle like this. Neither of these characters have ever had Batman-level popularity or anything, but Gambit usually has a larger fanbase than Nightcrawler does.

The thing is, the voting was massively skewed in Nightcrawler's favour BEFORE you and some other Viners came in with some actual reasonable arguments for Nightcrawler. Until a page ago, only one person had made a good case for Nightcrawler which isn't saying much about how this battle is turning out in the polls.

#161 Posted by Kerrigan (240 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@power_nexus said:

I wouldn't be too quick to call bias on a battle like this. Neither of these characters have ever had Batman-level popularity or anything, but Gambit usually has a larger fanbase than Nightcrawler does.

The thing is, the voting was massively skewed in Nightcrawler's favour BEFORE you and some other Viners came in with some actual reasonable arguments for Nightcrawler. Until a page ago, only one person had made a good case for Nightcrawler which isn't saying much about how this battle is turning out in the polls.

I'm not sure that's relevant: these are hardly obscure characters, and most Viners will be able to make their choice using their own knowledge. People are voting on who they think will win, not on the quality of the arguments made in their favor.

#162 Posted by Lvenger (20704 posts) - - Show Bio

@kerrigan said:

I'm not sure that's relevant: these are hardly obscure characters, and most Viners will be able to make their choice using their own knowledge. People are voting on who they think will win, not on the quality of the arguments made in their favor.

I'm aware of that but the quality of the arguments should help to make up people's minds. I knew nothing about either character but the Gambit arguments have convinced me more than the Nightcrawler ones that he wins. That's how votes should be decided.

#163 Edited by Power NeXus (9899 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@power_nexus said:

I wouldn't be too quick to call bias on a battle like this. Neither of these characters have ever had Batman-level popularity or anything, but Gambit usually has a larger fanbase than Nightcrawler does.

The thing is, the voting was massively skewed in Nightcrawler's favour BEFORE you and some other Viners came in with some actual reasonable arguments for Nightcrawler. Until a page ago, only one person had made a good case for Nightcrawler which isn't saying much about how this battle is turning out in the polls.

I honestly can't say I'm surprised at all. I've been a debater on these boards for a few years now (I just haven't been very active as of late), and I've only rarely seen debates involving Nightcrawler in which he is represented accurately. His powers and capabilities seem to be largely misunderstood by the general public. Nearly everyone either underestimates him by looking at the one fight where Cyclops called him predictable, or they overestimate him by thinking he'll use his powers for insta-wins like dismemberment or sky-drops (ignoring the fact that he hardly EVER actually uses such tactics).

#164 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (12346 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@ancient_0f_days said:

This is ridiculous, smh ......

At least people are actually making arguments and providing scans for Nightcrawler now. Though his absurd lead is a clear mark of popularity coming into play.

Yeah, at least.....but still even those arguments would only give Kurt a few wins since most of the feats they have are on par with Gambit's anyway, Kurts best reaction feat has nothing to do with bodily movement since it's a teleportation feat. I mean, they are good arguments none the less and they do have me second guessing a few things, but like you said it's all after the fact.

They're still bout the same in agility, Gambit's got him with reaction movement speed, skill and overall power. Stealth really isn't much of a factor when Nightcrawler is as predicable as he is, Kurt may be slightly physically stronger but Gambit can charge his staff to pack more punch. If he back's into a corner Kurt can't function as well, if Kurt has swords chances are he'll end up charging them since he can charge some objects without even touching them. and if Kurt has his swords, there goes his element of surprise since they aren't going to blend into the shadows like he can.

I know you know all this for the most part but I'm just saying it's close and technically Gambit should win but it's close either way even if he didn't win and it's hilarious bullsh*t that fanboys and ignorant users think that cus Nightcrawler can teleport that he's somehow untouchable or faster than Gambit or that he's somehow a better fighter all of a sudden. I'm not even a fan of Gambit, I think he's cool, but I like Nightcrawler way more for his portrayal in TV shows, X-2, video games, etc...for me he sold way better than Gambit ever did (especially after Origins)...but I took some time and thought about it for just a little bit and was able to come up with a good argument for why he should win fairly...it kinda pisses me off that a character I don't even care for in particular who I know can win gets absolutely shat on here by fanboys cus they think someone who's only real advantage is teleportation is gonna beat him so easily. It's like how they treat Odin Force Thor, why does he win against people he'd normally lose against on here, cus he's got the Odin Force, how does it influence the battle, Odin Force, how is he gonna hit this guy, Odin Force, but that doesn't explai-, ODIN FORCE!!! Or Batman, remember Batman vs Lex Luthor? All that crazy bull crap about "He's the goddamn BATMAN, he'll find a way"...same deal only that Nightcrawler who with morals on is restricted to non lethal tactics can somehow stomp Gambit, why? BAMF!!! That's why! End of discussion! Gambit can't BAMF? Your argument is invalid. It's utter bull and it sh*ts on last weeks CVBW and how formally, fairly and professionally it was handled. I feel like Angry Joe right now.

#165 Posted by Power NeXus (9899 posts) - - Show Bio

@power_nexus:

I actually missed this part.

Range: edge - Gambit (its basically useless though)

Strength: edge - Nightcrawler (barely)

Speed/manuverability: edge - Nightcrawler (by a LOT)

Agility: equal

Reaction time: equal

Fighting skill: edge - Gambit (not by much)

Weapons: edge - Gambit

I can agree with some of this. Kurt does have better strength feats and both are incredibly agile, but I do hope you mean he outclasses him in maneuverability because of teleporting. And maybe in terms of dodging they have similar reflex feats, but I don't see Kurt having as many bullet deflecting feats as Gambit does. As far as reflex/dodge goes, I can see where you're coming from in reaction time to say it is even, but in actual combat speed of action/reaction, I see Gambit as outclassing him by a noticeable margin.

Yes, I gave Nightcrawler the manuverability/speed edge due to his teleporting. In terms of raw physical ability, I think they are tied for agility and quickness.

Nightcrawler doesn't have as many bullet deflecting feats as Gambit does because... that's just not what he does. He dodges bullets and he teleports away from them, but he hardly ever carries anything that he could use to deflect bullets (contarary to popular opinion, he doesn't actually use swords that often).
But, if you're looking for Kurt's bullet timing feats, check out the scan I posted on this page. He has a gun against his head, and he teleports after the gun has been fired but before the bullet reaches him.

#166 Edited by Power NeXus (9899 posts) - - Show Bio

@ancient_0f_days:

Kurts best reaction feat has nothing to do with bodily movement since it's a teleportation feat.

I don't see how that makes any difference. Its a perfectly valid feat for reaction time. Its not meant to be a feat for his physical speed. I've already posted scans of him showing off while dodging automatic gunfire (without teleporting). Those are his speed/agility feats. The one you're referencing is just meant to be a reaction time feat.

Stealth really isn't much of a factor when Nightcrawler is as predicable as he is

All the scans you can post that indicate Nightcrawler's predictability come from the X-Men's earlier days when he was still a noob without any serious training or experience. You have to take into account that those particular fights were a long time ago, Nightcrawler has had a lot of training since then, and he hasn't had any more 'predictability' comments since then.

Kurt may be slightly physically stronger but Gambit can charge his staff to pack more punch.

Key word being 'can'. Gambit doesn't use that tactic very often.

if Kurt has swords chances are he'll end up charging them since he can charge some objects without even touching them. and if Kurt has his swords, there goes his element of surprise since they aren't going to blend into the shadows like he can.

The only time Kurt has used swords as standard gear was when he was a member of Excalibur. To say he has standard gear now means he is unarmed.

#167 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (12346 posts) - - Show Bio

@power_nexus: I mentioned the teleportation feat because I'm pointing out that Gambit is still a faster mover with his reaction speed, he's faster than Nightcrawler.

Noob or not, Kurt hasn't changed up tactically really since then and he hasn't been fighting the X-Men as often, people who know him (Gambit fought Nightcrawler's android clone...obviously not a testament to how it would go down with the real, but it copied his fighting style, predictable). And it's too consistent with the character for his own teammates to know what he's gonna do.

Gambit can and in this case may as well cus even though he doesn't do it often, he did it recently enough against Iron Man that it is relevant to this battle.

Without swords I don't see him posing as much of a threat, considering the fact that Gambit has shown he can charge things without even touching them and then there's what he did to Kurts mom ..... I just don't see Kurt winning with those factors among others, he may be able to blend in with the shadows...but Remy can light it up in a second and take that element away.

#168 Edited by mootagen (4 posts) - - Show Bio

Kurt would win, but just barely. I believe it was established in a forum post Spidey vs. Nightcrawler that there's a slight delay when Kurt rematerializes, and smoke seeps out from the "dark dimension" (right?) before Kurt comes out of it. But Kurt's spent X number of years integrating his teleportation and fighting style--Gambit could not keep up, unless I'm seriously misjudging his reaction time. It's not like he's anywhere close to Spidey, right?

Question for those who've researched: Regarding starting a punch before porting and finishing it after: I don't know if that's how Kurt's power works. It's not quite instant, right? There's time between when he enters the dark dimension (?) and when he leaves it, because he's crawling through that dimension. Or something. Can body position and momentum be preserved?

#169 Posted by MisterWhisper (2034 posts) - - Show Bio

@mootagen: Yes he keeps momentum when he teleports, it helps him in combat but can almost kill him in other cases.

Once, back in the 80's he teleported out of the crashing blackbird and nearly died because he was still going like 200mph.

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#170 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (12346 posts) - - Show Bio

@mootagen said:

Gambit could not keep up, unless I'm seriously misjudging his reaction time.

You are, guessing you missed the last page or two where Jashro and I proved that Gambit was in fact faster in reaction time.

#171 Posted by Lvenger (20704 posts) - - Show Bio

I honestly can't say I'm surprised at all. I've been a debater on these boards for a few years now (I just haven't been very active as of late), and I've only rarely seen debates involving Nightcrawler in which he is represented accurately. His powers and capabilities seem to be largely misunderstood by the general public. Nearly everyone either underestimates him by looking at the one fight where Cyclops called him predictable, or they overestimate him by thinking he'll use his powers for insta-wins like dismemberment or sky-drops (ignoring the fact that he hardly EVER actually uses such tactics).

Yes but to those who know him and have worked with him for a long time, his teleporting and combat tactics should be well known to someone like Gambit really. When his bamfing comes with a loud sound and the smell of brimstone according to Iron Fist, it should be easy to predict where he's going. Now take that with someone who can react faster than Kurt, is as agile as him and more deadly at range and close combat and I don't see Kurt taking a majority. Yes he can avoid Gambit for a while but Gambit is capable at range and in close quarters whereas Kurt needs to be close to be effective.

#172 Posted by Power NeXus (9899 posts) - - Show Bio

@power_nexus: I mentioned the teleportation feat because I'm pointing out that Gambit is still a faster mover with his reaction speed, he's faster than Nightcrawler.

Noob or not, Kurt hasn't changed up tactically really since then and he hasn't been fighting the X-Men as often, people who know him (Gambit fought Nightcrawler's android clone...obviously not a testament to how it would go down with the real, but it copied his fighting style, predictable). And it's too consistent with the character for his own teammates to know what he's gonna do.

Gambit can and in this case may as well cus even though he doesn't do it often, he did it recently enough against Iron Man that it is relevant to this battle.

Without swords I don't see him posing as much of a threat, considering the fact that Gambit has shown he can charge things without even touching them and then there's what he did to Kurts mom ..... I just don't see Kurt winning with those factors among others, he may be able to blend in with the shadows...but Remy can light it up in a second and take that element away.

Nightcrawler has some sweet feats for speed and reaction time too. Gambit may be faster, but I don't think there's enough of a margin for it to really make a noticable difference.

Kurt isn't dumb enough to act like a robot of himself. As an example, I've posted the scans of his hand-to-hand combat fight with Sage. The only reason he was fighting without teleportation was because he knew Sage had studied him and his tactics, so he changed it up to catch her off guard. If he's fighting Gambit, he would have the same mindset (change it up a little, use moves you don't usually use, etc). Robots don't get that innovative.
And how often have Kurt and Remy even been X-Men at the same time. Honestly, I'm having trouble thinking of any time during which they were on the same squad at the same time.

So doing a feat once recently makes it a common tactic now? I might as well start listing off Kurt's feats for tele-dropping, tele-dismemberment, etc.
(sarcasm)

Again, Remy CAN charge things without touching them. How often does he do it though?
Characters don't always use their powers in combat the way we think they should. Nightcrawler CAN 'port an enemy 2 miles in the sky and let him drop, but that doesn't mean I can say NC wins this fight by those means. It's something he VERY rarely does. It wouldn't be a legitimate support for my side of the debate.

#173 Posted by Power NeXus (9899 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@power_nexus said:

I honestly can't say I'm surprised at all. I've been a debater on these boards for a few years now (I just haven't been very active as of late), and I've only rarely seen debates involving Nightcrawler in which he is represented accurately. His powers and capabilities seem to be largely misunderstood by the general public. Nearly everyone either underestimates him by looking at the one fight where Cyclops called him predictable, or they overestimate him by thinking he'll use his powers for insta-wins like dismemberment or sky-drops (ignoring the fact that he hardly EVER actually uses such tactics).

Yes but to those who know him and have worked with him for a long time, his teleporting and combat tactics should be well known to someone like Gambit really. When his bamfing comes with a loud sound and the smell of brimstone according to Iron Fist, it should be easy to predict where he's going. Now take that with someone who can react faster than Kurt, is as agile as him and more deadly at range and close combat and I don't see Kurt taking a majority. Yes he can avoid Gambit for a while but Gambit is capable at range and in close quarters whereas Kurt needs to be close to be effective.

Gambit has not worked with Nightcrawler for a long time. I've pointed this out several times. They've hardly ever been members of the team at the same time.

You say it 'should' be easy to predict, but you're pretty much ignoring all the times Nightcrawler has managed to BAMF-tag anybody else with a decent skill level. Apparently its not always that easy.

The 'react faster' point is debatable, and not significant enough to be relevant.

The 'more deadly at close range' part is also debatable, considering that Nightcrawler has better strength/durability feats and can move around faster.

#174 Posted by Lvenger (20704 posts) - - Show Bio

Gambit has

not

worked with Nightcrawler for a long time. I've pointed this out several times. They've hardly ever been members of the team at the same time.

You say it 'should' be easy to predict, but you're pretty much ignoring all the times Nightcrawler has managed to BAMF-tag anybody else with a decent skill level. Apparently its not always that easy.

The 'react faster' point is debatable, and not significant enough to be relevant.

The 'more deadly at close range' part is also debatable, considering that Nightcrawler has better strength/durability feats and can move around faster.

Oh come on, you really can't be following this line of argument. Gambit knows him and knows people who Kurt has been friends with on the X-Men. It's absurd to claim Gambit's not going to know how Kurt thinks and fights. Tell me who with decent skill Nightcrawler has managed to BAMF tag without him getting predicted and caught out. You ignore the fact that Nightcrawler's teleporting is loud and smelly. In other words, it's not silent teleporting. Combatants have tagged him, that you can't deny and it's not out of the question for Remy to tag him either.

The 'react faster' point can be contested given that Remy has dodged blows from Spider-Man who's a casual bullet dodger whereas Nightcrawler has been shown up by the Web Slinger on several occasions.

And the close quarters thing is definitely in Remy's park. Yes Kurt is stronger but Remy can charge his staff or any other close object and use it against Nightcrawler. Kurt needs to be close to hurt Remy whereas Remy can hurt him from anywhere on the battlefield.

#175 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (12346 posts) - - Show Bio

@power_nexus: Teledropping and dismemberment is a bad example, obviously it isn't an arguing point but you can't even compare it to my examples of what Gambit can do, he's charged his staff more than once and I only mentioned that he did it recently

since you said he doesn't do it often, I brought up a point that refutes that. It isn't a common tactic for Nightcrawler to switch up his fighting style, but he's gonna do it here cus he did it once against someone else? See where I'm going, I'm not gonna do like you and act like it's not all that valid though. Besides...Gambit has charged items similar to his staff in the past as well...so yeah....BOOOSH!!!!

He's charged a plate with his eyes, yes it's a rare thing, but all I'm saying is, is he really going to forget that he can charge things without touching them?

I don't see why he would honestly? He may not do it at first cus he's got cards to rely on, he may not even have to at all cus he can stick an explosive card on anything he wants charged. Like I said, if he caught Kurt off guard with an explosion and made physical contact....

it wouldn't end well...all in all Gambit can charge something and hit Nightcrawler once to knock him out. He can just do what he did in the first scan and hit him with AoE kinetic energy...it's all the same really.

#176 Posted by schillenger420 (821 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: A lot of scans are BS and it's perfectly acceptable to argue a thing after doing a little research. Scans are often loaded with PIS, WIS, all kinds of things ending in IS. According to scans Batman can bench a ton, Wolverine can throw an 800lb object with one hand, and Spiderman beats Firelord. I go by definition of powers.... what the character is supposed to be able to do as defined by his skillset. Also, while I didn't have comics as a kid, that doesn't mean I wasn't able to get the paperback novel version of a lot of the larger events that happened in the comic world, so I'm far from ignorant on a lot of these characters.

#177 Posted by Mellow_Hype (72 posts) - - Show Bio
#178 Edited by The_Absolute (892 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@jack_vii said:

@jashro44: The Danger room as in an open space with no shadows, props or obstacles.

All right. All though we did agree that nightcrawler probably wouldn't go into the shadows, and I don't really believe the rest of that stuff would make nightcrawler less predictable.

Right, what I mean is Kurt, were he so inclined - which he most likely wouldn't be, would have a lot more tactical options instead of simply 'porting head-on into striking range. He could use the shadows and adjust his 'porting timing - only striking when he sees an opportunity; in an open area fight, it's easy for an expert to see when and where he's coming from and anticipate, but in environment where he can hide, lurk and/or strike it would be, I think, a tad more difficult to predict his actions.

#179 Posted by The_Absolute (892 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@ancient_0f_days said:

This is ridiculous, smh ......

At least people are actually making arguments and providing scans for Nightcrawler now. Though his absurd lead is a clear mark of popularity coming into play.

I think it's less about pop. as it is more of an cursory estimation of teleportation vs kinetically-infused throwing weapons. Votes are made before thinking it through or listening to the agruement.

#180 Posted by jashro44 (22824 posts) - - Show Bio
#181 Posted by GraniteSoldier (8470 posts) - - Show Bio

Ok, I'm going to go with Gambit here. Kurt's teleportation is, in my opinion, a much better power. But, both fighters are in character. Kurt is devoutly religious, and most times seems to be damn near a pacifist unless pushed and pushed hard. Gambit has a looser moral code, and knows how to win without killing. Kurt is not going to simply tele-dismember a fellow X-Man, or teleport him into the sky and let him fall or drown him at the bottom of a lake.

Plus, there's the familiarity aspect. Many have already talked about Nightcrawler's predictability. He has been tagged by others with reactions similar to Gambit, and Gambit has tagged a Nightcrawler-bot of a sorts. I think Gambit's reflexes are better, that if he can predict Kurt's movements then he can set up Kurt to take a blast as he appears. Gambit is also the better hand to hand combatant, and his power packs more of a KO wallop.

If this was a random encounter between two strangers, I'd give Nightcrawler the undoubted win. But, with their familiarity with one another, and Nightcrawler's reputation for being predicted by those familiar with him, I think Gambit can pull the win here, albeit slightly. Gambit 6/10.

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#182 Posted by Power NeXus (9899 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm tired of having two separate conversations with two separate people and having basically the exact same debate points in both. For clarity, I will try to put my full argument in one post.

STRENGTH
As I've been saying, I believe Nightcrawler has a small edge in physical strength. When he was created, superhuman strength was intended to be one of his powers. Despite the fact that it has been forgotten about in all official handbooks, it still shows in some of his feats. Its unfair to assume that Nightcrawler still has superhuman strength, but his feats of strength and durability are a level above Olympic-level athletes. This is not a HUGE advantage for Nightcrawler, but being able to hit harder and take more hits than your opponent is always an edge.

REACTION TIME
Ok fine. Maybe Gambit has slightly better reaction time than Nightcrawler. Maybe he doesn't. Both of them have excellent feats (for Nightcrawler's, see the scans of him casually dodging bullets without teleporting, or teleporting away from a bullet before it leaves the barrel) and the point could be debated all day, but its honestly too close to matter. No matter which one of them is superior, they are not superior by enough of a margin that it would make any impact on the outcome of the fight.

PREDICTABILITY
I can't even recall any specific times during which both Gambit and Nightcrawler were X-Men at the same time. It probably has happened at some point (I'm not an encyclopedia of the X-Men's history), but it would have to have been a very brief period at best. And I have already presented two reasons why Nightcrawler would probably not be overly predictable in a fight such as this. 1) Nobody has commented on his predictability in a long time. He's grown up, gotten more skilled, and gotten more experience since the last time one of his teammates said that. Were he still so predictable, his fights against Sage and Death/Wolverine (for which I've already shown scans) and Rogue and Colossus (for which I can provide scans in a later post) would not have gone nearly as well for him. 2) As evidenced in his fight against Sage (for which I have already provided scans), Nightcrawler shows that he's intelligent enough to alter his combat tactics when fighting someone who knows him. Its stated pretty much verbatum in that fight that he chose not to teleport at all simply because he knew Sage would be expecting him to do so. This is why Gambit's feat against the Nightcrawler robot is not really valid. The robot was meant to be like Nightcrawler, but had no actual mind of its own. Thats why it was predictable. Nightcrawler, as shown, thinks creatively against opponents who know how he usually thinks. I don't think there's a single X-Man who knows Kurt better than Wolverine does, but Kurt has already proven he's now capable of disarming/hurting Death Wolverine in two panels.

AGILITY
Not much to debate here. I think we can all agree they are on roughly the same level.

SKILL
I'll admit that Gambit is superior in this area. However, I do not think he is superior by a large margin. While Nightcrawler's teleportation was severly weakened while he was with Excalibur, he was forced to spend an extensive time making up for his loss of power by amping up his skill. That's when he added rapiers to his standard arsenal and began more serious training in hand-to-hand combat. While Gambit certainly has more impressive feats/fights involving raw h2h combat, Nightcrawler has proven himself very competant in that area as well.

UNCOMMON TACTICS
Nightcrawler can drop an enemy from two miles up in the air. Nightcrawler can dismember enemies via teleportation. Nightcrawler can teleport solid objects directly into an opponents' body. Nightcrawler can grab enemies who aren't used to teleporting and take them on a multi-port ride that leaves them nearly unconcious.
But he almost never does.
Gambit can make living matter explode. Gambit can make objects he's not physically touching explode (There's one thing I can't help but point out though. In that scan where he supposedly charged the plate with his eyes... he was holding the plate. :/ ). Gambit can increase the effectiveness of his staff by charging it up.
But he almost never does.
When debating for or against a character, you can't just take the feats you like the best and say he's definitely going to do it again in this situation. There's a difference between what Nightcrawler COULD do to beat Gambit, and what he PROBABLY WOULD do to beat him. The same applies to Gambit.
Due to the number of times they've performed these feats on panel, its not a good argument to say that Gambit explodes Nightcrawler's body or Nightcrawler teleport's Gambit's hands off. When trying to determine the probable outcome of a fight, one should not look at the improbable feats.


SCENARIO AS I SEE IT
Since they start 20 feet apart, in a street, visible to each other, I think its highly probable that the fight is going to start with Gambit spamming a few cards at Nightcrawler right off the bat. Using his explosives in such a basic manner will get Gambit nowhere. You can talk about Gambit's accuracy all day, but I still see multiple scans where Nightcrawler casually dodges bullets from close range without even having to teleport. Avoiding projectiles is like half of all Nightcrawler ever does... like ever. He does it all the stinking time. I'm not saying Gambit isn't going to hurt Kurt, but I am saying he's not going to do it with just a regular card throw.
Since Gambit is never going to hit Kurt from long range, and Kurt can't do anything at all from long range, I don't think its going to take more than a few seconds until Kurt teleports in close and the fight goes mano e mano.
Now, as we all know, they both have their own advantages in h2h combat. Gambit has a weapon and superior fighting skill. Nightcrawler has teleportation and superior strength/durability. Now, I'm still of the opinion that this fight is very close, but Nightcrawler's feats just make me think his advantages are slightly better than Gambit's. He took on Sage in hand-to-hand without even teleporting. He put Death Wolverine on his knees in two panels, disarming him and breaking his armor before he could even react. He's durable enough to tank a backhand from Sebastian Shaw, and strong enough to make Captain Britain and Spider-Man say ouch. He can teleport in the space between a gun being fired and the bullet leaving the barrel (I know I keep coming back to that one, but that really is an exemplary example of his reaction time).

I'm not saying this is a landslide by any means. Gambit's superior skill and his bo staff make the melee aspect very close. He also has a chance of winning if he manages to do something really creative and tricky with his cards other than just throwing them like he usually does. They both have a good chance of winning. However, I think if these guys fought 100 times, Nightcrawler might win 55 or 60 of those fights. It's still a very close fight that could go either way, but I give Nightcrawler a small majority.

#183 Posted by thevagrantking (12 posts) - - Show Bio

Nightcrawler relies on his teleportation far too much, and it's far too easy to counter. Gambit is sneaky enough to pull dirty tricks like the aforementioned 'surrounding self with minor explosions', or creating debris and shrapnel around himself in the air, negating Nightcrawler's ability to 'Port in close. The counter to this would be for Kurt to give himself some pseudo ranged attacks, 'porting objects above Remy to avoid the minefield that Gambit can create, but that will feed into the predictability that others have also mentioned.

Kurt has the cooler power set, and is probably more likable than Gambit. 9 times out of 10, these fights go to the better tactician, because that's the person who's going to figure out how to counter the opponent first. As much as I love the Elf, I gotta vote Gambit and his dirty tricks.

#184 Posted by Lvenger (20704 posts) - - Show Bio

@jack_vii: That makes sense. People are going on prior assumptions of Nightcrawler's teleporting over Gambit's knowledge of Kurt, similar reactions and agility along with ranged and close quarters abilities.

#185 Posted by Lvenger (20704 posts) - - Show Bio

@power_nexus: Well at least you've made a good Viner argument of the week here. For two days, Nightcrawler was 70% ahead in the polls without anyone making a decent case for him like the supporters of Gambit were.

#186 Edited by mootagen (4 posts) - - Show Bio

We're discussing this as though the writing is consistent. As with all supers, the powers increase or decrease to fit the storyline. Most people are choosing benchmarks arbitrarily. I've read enough to think the fight could go either way.

But one more thing that annoys me about comic logic is that NC never teleports closer than punching- or kicking-range. If he was holding a dagger or any other object and teleported so close to an enemy that the object materializes in him, he could immediately incapacitate the foe. He could stop Remy without killing the foe by teleporting a long, thin object into one of Remy's hands or legs, then clock him while he's stunned, or take out another limb. But he never does that. What the hell?

#187 Posted by Power NeXus (9899 posts) - - Show Bio

@mootagen said:

We're discussing this as though the writing is consistent. As with all supers, the powers increase or decrease to fit the storyline. Most people are choosing benchmarks arbitrarily. I've read enough to think the fight could go either way.

But one more thing that annoys me about comic logic is that NC never teleports closer than punching- or kicking-range. If he was holding a dagger or any other object and teleported so close to an enemy that the object materializes in him, he could immediately incapacitate the foe. He could stop Remy without killing the foe by teleporting a long, thin object into one of Remy's hands or legs, then clock him while he's stunned, or take out another limb. But he never does that. What the hell?

Nightcrawler never does that because its not in his character.
Sure, he fights with swords sometimes and has no problem with stabbing somebody, but the easy 'insta-win' moves simply aren't his style. He grew up on Errol Flynn swashbuckling movies, and likes to act the part of the "dashing young scallion saving the damsel in distress" kind of guy. He likes to put some 'style' in his fights, so he'd much rather face a guy in a head-on fair fight than stab him in the back.

#188 Edited by k4tzm4n (48812 posts) - - Show Bio

This will be locked in half a day or so!

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#189 Posted by The_Absolute (892 posts) - - Show Bio

@mootagen said:

We're discussing this as though the writing is consistent. As with all supers, the powers increase or decrease to fit the storyline. Most people are choosing benchmarks arbitrarily. I've read enough to think the fight could go either way.

But one more thing that annoys me about comic logic is that NC never teleports closer than punching- or kicking-range. If he was holding a dagger or any other object and teleported so close to an enemy that the object materializes in him, he could immediately incapacitate the foe. He could stop Remy without killing the foe by teleporting a long, thin object into one of Remy's hands or legs, then clock him while he's stunned, or take out another limb. But he never does that. What the hell?

This reason is why I recommend that people should judge a character by a "Baseline". a Baseline would be the character's history/experience, personality and skill/powerset. A character's baseline incorporates every aspect of a character into a singular representation of character. Essentially, the conceptual core of that character.

For example:

Wolverine
His baseline is that he's a mutant (a subset of humans) been around for easily 100 years and trained as a warrior, soldier and fighter - thereby making him a genuine master martial artist. He's survived on his wits and tenacity. As part of his mutant powerset, he has superhuman (beyond the scope any amount of physical training can produce) reflexes, strength, stamina, agility and senses - in and of themselves have been elevated by training and experience. He is by nature a killer, although extremely honorable and trustworthy and a man of great conviction. He has a "healing factor" and unbreakable admantium bonded to his bones and razor sharp claws. In a fight, he's the Terminator, a superhuman killing machine who won't stop until his opponent is dead or he is.

-------

So now any story, feat, or writing that diverges too far in any direction from that baseline should be seen as a writer's artistic interpretation of that character and not necessary an accurate portrayal of that character. Cutting down a literal army of Hand ninjas, Spec Ops soldiers or robots falls within his baseline, however losing a fight against Batman, Daredevil, Captain America*, Black Panther or Cyclops does not.

While stories may add or take away from a character's stats, skills personalities etc, the character's baseline always holds true. That why when Superman goes from leaping buildings to flying, lifting cars to obliterating mountains, it's acceptable since his baseline is the ultimate being with powers and abilities far beyond those of mortal men. Superman taking a life is not. Or when Spidey dodges bullets in one comic book and gets punched in the face by a flying senior citizen wearing a vulture's outfit in another, it's acceptable since it's within his baseline of a being just regular guy with fantastic powers trying to do right by them. Spidey swearing to kill an enemy out of anger is; while actually doing, it is not.

Remy and Kurt's baselines are relatively the same - both ancillary mutant acrobats with hero-level fighting skills (as opposed to superhero level; also as opposed to fighting ability). Neither are killers, or superhuman-ly durable; The only area they diverge is where the Cajun is a scoundrel, while the Elf is a swashbuckler. So you can point out feats and show scans, but either way this fight goes it wouldn't diverge too far from their baselines to be considered an inaccurate depiction of their relative performance.

*The last time, I think, Wolvie and Cap went at it was in AvX; that fight, I feel, fell within his baseline and accurately depicted them both.

#190 Posted by SC (13216 posts) - - Show Bio

A common argument made pro Gambit is the idea that Nightcrawler can be predicted and thus attacked. It has happened before so why not again by a capable opponent? Its a a fairly sound argument but not as far as a sound conclusion to this encounter because predictions by definition deal with odds and probabilities and its not an exclusive argument for Gambit, so attaching it as such too much of an oversimplification. Though as far as abilities its a greater equalizer as far as arguing for Remy and the character is generally a lot more subtle and crafty and patient enough to pick up on patterns. This is meant to be an objective comparison though, we know that in stories writers will undermine a characters abilities for plot progression, but unless Kurt has a much lower IQ than average its unreasonable to suggest he will teleport around for no reason giving Gambit opportunity to capitalize on his predictability. Gambit cartwheels and does flips a lot as well, he won't start doing that in the middle of the battle so Nightcrawler can predict where he will land and make it easy for him.

Here's another thing about probabilities, you can use a few examples to establish what a conclusion to an outcome will be when you have hundreds of examples where a different outcome was had. Its definitely possible that Gambit could tag Nightcrawler, but what's possible and probable are different things. We don't have enough raw data to conclude how much of an achilles heel Nightcrawler's predictability is. Also factoring that all things have degree of predictability.

I agree Gambit is smart enough and knowledgable enough to not wander around aimlessly and forget that his mate has the ability to teleport behind him. Gambit will be like a cat, constantly aware that an attack can come at a moments notice and from anywhere. That being said that doesn't mean that Kurt thinks he is fighting Mother Theresa either, so its not like he is going to try and casually sneak up behind the sneakiest X-Men there is.

Even if there was consensus on Gambit's superior reflexes and agility, why would Nightcrawler teleport within Gambit's sphere of reach in a way that would leave him open? This isn't a battle between the smart and savvy Cajun and the naive and ignorant German. Bigger objects don't mean heavier or more dangerous objects, Nightcrawler can drop Gambit from 8 meters instead of 50. Kurt isn't so moralistic that he is worried that Gambit might get his hair messed up.

Closing the battle? Well this is where I think creative thinking and reason comes in and trumps over feats. Gambit has been referenced as winning in two general ways. Tagging and exploiting a predictable Nightcrawler or catching him with a long range explosive hit. Nightcrawler has a lot more options and none of them have to go to an extreme. He could just use his ability to hide in shadows and think about his game plan. Usually in his comic appearances he doesn't have the singleminded purpose or motivation that he has here, he could literally spend 2 hours invisible while Gambit has to walk around. Then wait for him to lower his guard and go for a knock out. Given his psychology his punches should be able to knock out Gambit and this isn't some comic issue, where the point of encounters is to entertain. Kurt doesn't have to drop him onto concrete either, any water sources near by and Gambit will end up getting wet. So many creative intelligent arguments made for Gambit but none of them have really offered any counter arguments to combat Kurt's sheer versatility in offense in either regard to his shadow ability or teleportation. Not just that Nightcrawler could even break as many light sources as he wants, he can see in the dark.

I know Gambit went through a period where he was blind, and this environment was intended to be neutral but Nightcrawler can stack the odds in his favor so heavily its just not funny. I mean has Nightcrawler even demonstrated this in a comic? Better question is if anyone in this thread can see in the dark and teleport objects into other objects to break them (lights, lamps, etc) why wouldn't you do this? Pro Gambit counter argument? Oh well he can just predict this and tag Nightcrawler who decides to just teleport a bunch around him saying 'auf wiedersehen' a bunch. Err right. I personally see Kurt either using his superior stealth powers to take out light sources and basically use the darkness and his ability to overwhelm Gambit with projectiles to get his gaurd down enough to get a knockout blow. Or using his brain and teleporting an object like a fire extinguisher into a close spaced near Gambit to dull and mess with his senses then teleport and throw something heavy at him (Kurt can pick up man sized objects with his tail alone, and with momentum it would be easy for him to throw a fridge at Remy from a safe distance) and that would just be a distraction, since Gambit has the power to destroy a lot of objects and or evade them but with dulled senses would give Kurt opportunity to strike.

Maybe if this was in an open space during the day and Nightcrawler was forced to fight Gambit, then I could definitely see all the pro Gambit arguments coming into play. Nightcrawler might actually make a few mistakes that Remy can capitalize on. Gumbo will definitely be able to use his cunning to good measure and force Kurt to evade and dodge enough to pick up a pattern to land a solid hit. This thread's environment and stipulations set up a very different situation though. Giving Elf the vote. Have not been swayed by any pro Gambit arguments (but there were many I thought were great!)

I also think the idea that pro Nightcrawler arguments have had less merit and vigor a bit exaggerated as well, they made up the majority of the longer posts on page one for example. A lot of strawman arguments have been made about how other people "overrate" him and how he is more popular but nothing really that solid as far as explanations. I don't think people should feel discouraged because there efforts seem ignored (there were many great pro Gambit arguments that came on pages 2, 3 and 4 that won't be reflected by poll numbers, it can be unfortunate, but thats no reason to start undermine other peoples efforts, thats just ironic.

Another great match up too.

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#191 Posted by SC (13216 posts) - - Show Bio

@razzatazz said:

@sc: If you are trying to appeal to my nostalgic side by invoking Errol Flynn then you have succeeded.

On a serious note though you have argued yourself into a corner ... literally. I hadn't even considered it before, but all that Gambit has to do is to stand in the corner of a room (or alleyway) thus taking away the advantage of the teleportation, because as you say "Nightcrawler can't teleport into solid things" (though the limits of that are kind of poorly defined as air is just as much composed of matter as a wall is). This would eliminate any benefit of a surprise attack from behind and Gambit with pre-charged kinetic energy piles could easily take him down. It should probably be edited into Nightcrawler's wiki page that his main weakness is people standing in corners.

Ah darn it, thats a good point. Gambit just needs to stand in a corner looking outward and Nightcrawler is beat! Bwhaha. Nice! Very nice!

Though at best that is a stalemate - alternatively Gambit is known for being naughty, I would suspect he has a pathological fear of corners as they would invoke all his memories of having to be in the naughty corner. Smart tactic but I am not sure of its application, scientifically speaking. Psst I couldn't see the video but yeah I was trying to play the Errol Flynn card.

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#192 Posted by MonsterStomp (19239 posts) - - Show Bio

Really hope we get a powerhouse fight next.. Getting tired of street levellers, lol.

#193 Posted by Wolverine08 (43631 posts) - - Show Bio

Really hope we get a powerhouse fight next.. Getting tired of street levellers, lol.

NO! I'm not well versed in that many powerhouses! I don't want to be lost during the battle of the week! Lol.

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#194 Posted by ComicStooge (13368 posts) - - Show Bio

Really hope we get a powerhouse fight next.. Getting tired of street levellers, lol.

Or take it a step further and use someone like Galactus. ;)

#195 Edited by MonsterStomp (19239 posts) - - Show Bio

@monsterstomp said:

Really hope we get a powerhouse fight next.. Getting tired of street levellers, lol.

NO! I'm not well versed in that many powerhouses! I don't want to be lost during the battle of the week! Lol.

We had like one powerhouse battle out of all the weekly battles iirc :(

Plus many other Viner's are very well versed on powerhouses. Would be a good chance to get some knowledge on them.

I'd even have fun with another team battle.

#196 Posted by MonsterStomp (19239 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge: I'd see why you'd say that, lol. I wouldn't mind that either.