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Posted by k4tzm4n (36116 posts) 10 months, 1 day ago

Poll: Comic Vine Battle of the Week VOTING: Gambit vs. Nightcrawler (459 votes)

Gambit 29%
Nightcrawler 65%
Too close to call 6%
Remy or Kurt? GET YOUR ELABORATION ON, VINERS!

Match Rules

  • Combatants are in character (this means morals are on, people).
  • This is a random encounter.
  • They're fighting in a generic downtown city setting. It's unpopulated, at night and all standard city lights remain on. Assume they start roughly 20 feet apart and visible. There's a fair amount of cover between them (parked vehicles, bus stops and such). The entire area is on limits. This means alleys, rooftops, building interiors, etc..
  • All characters have standard gear.
  • Incapacitation, knockout or death all count as elimination.
  • "But Nightcrawler is dead" isn't an original comment. This is obviously pre-death Kurt.
  • And speaking of death, Gambit's horseman powers will not come into play.

Viners, you have the week to research, debate and vote! This means there's no reason to vote right away if you don't have all of the info you need to make an educated decision. Check the homepage Friday for an updated article with the following:

  • My extended thoughts on the match.
  • A Viner Argument in favor of the poll's winner (can't include scans and must be in the poll thread).
  • Extra thoughts from other Comic Vine staffers.
  • If we're lucky, blurbs from industry talent.

Feel free to make future match suggestions in the comments below or via Gregg's Twitter page.

#101 Posted by MonsterStomp (15195 posts) - - Show Bio
Online
#102 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio
#103 Posted by MonsterStomp (15195 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: So you chose dare :P

I dare you to stick up for Nightcrawler XD

Online
#104 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (11355 posts) - - Show Bio

I've seen no scans and some lackluster arguments for nightcrawler supporters this whole thread, sad to see ignorance rule the polls.

#105 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@monsterstomp said:

@cadencev2: So you chose dare :P

I dare you to stick up for Nightcrawler XD

Doh!!! Um.... Nightcrawler is ... uh....kewl. He teleports alot.... ummmm...... he is blue and looks like a demon.... err..... HE WINS!

Like 90% of people on here, I need not to make a case, I simply need to say he WINS!

#106 Posted by MonsterStomp (15195 posts) - - Show Bio
Online
#107 Posted by God_Spawn (37140 posts) - - Show Bio

I've seen no scans and some lackluster arguments for nightcrawler supporters this whole thread, sad to see ignorance rule the polls.

Agreed. This thread has become somewhat disgusting. I feel like it kind of spits in the face of what happened last week with how well Cyclops vs Batman and went. Sure it had it's fair share of ignorance, but nothing like this.

Moderator
#108 Edited by Ancient_0f_Days (11355 posts) - - Show Bio

Agreed. This thread has become somewhat disgusting. I feel like it kind of spits in the face of what happened last week with how well Cyclops vs Batman and went. Sure it had it's fair share of ignorance, but nothing like this.

I think it had more to do with DC vs Marvel at that point with some voters as well as the very thought out arguments by several other users including you that made it as good of a debate as it was, since it was Batman and Cyclops there's an equal amount of blind supporters and people who actually contributed to the thread making it an almost even and all around good debate. Nightcrawler has so much more popularity among fans than Gambit from what I've seen and this glorification of power sets is what gave people the idea that Nightcrawler's teleportation somehow makes him untouchable and able to beat certain characters without any need for clarification or reason. Despite Gambit having a much better track record overall with his only disadvantage being not having teleportation, in the minds of some people I guess it's not good enough. I don't even know what to do at this point, I gave my argument and thought it was a good one but I guess it takes more than that...

#109 Posted by TheJedinator13 (33 posts) - - Show Bio

Gambit, Especially if morals are on

#110 Edited by i_like_swords (12597 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't think anyone has actually made a case for Nightcrawlers combat ability. People have just blindly thrown their vote at Nightcrawler because he can teleport, even though he is consistently tagged and predicted - even by people unfamiliar with his power set.

If Nightcrawlers teleportation is literally the only thing he has going for him, then logically Gambit should win. I'm sure someone out there can make a legit case for Nightcrawler, but it's not even close to a stomp.

#111 Edited by MatteoPG (1877 posts) - - Show Bio
#112 Edited by Chaos Burn (1772 posts) - - Show Bio

Reading these comments, you'd think Gambit was the one people are all voting for....

#113 Posted by RazzaTazz (9450 posts) - - Show Bio

I would say Gambit. Granted Nightcrawler has an increased agility, but by how much. Let's assume for the sake of argument that his teleportation abilities are completely energy based (in that he creates a kind of energy door and doesn't have to reassemble his atoms between teleportations). If that is the case then it is reasonable to assume that his teleportations are instantaneous, however that is really his only advantage. Being teleported to a new area for potentially a surprise attack is going to be only as fast as his reaction time. Is his reaction time faster than Gambit's? Maybe, but it doesn't matter, because Gambit has energy powers which are better than those of Nightcrawler. Put it this way ... have you ever touched something, only to realize too late that it was hot and it burned you? This is because the transfer of kinetic energy in the form of heat transfers far faster than human nervous system reaction time (and granted that is pretty fast). So the end result would be that if Gambit could get some energy charged items in the path of Nightcrawler then he is going to be able to incapacitate him. It is not going to be a quick victory, Nightcrawler is going to get a few hits from unexpected angles, but as soon as Gambit can anticipate the attacks he is going to be able to just throw a card there in anticipation of the attack, or throw out five cards in anticipation of the expected attacks. They have to go somewhere. Keep in mind too that Gambit is a skilled combatant and will be able to anticipate such attacks. Take away the main powers of both and Nightcrawler wins in a straight up hand-to-hand battle, but Gambit would be eventually victorious with the kinetic energy blasts. Teleportation looks cool, but it is more flash than substance in this battle.

Moderator
#114 Edited by clemj (817 posts) - - Show Bio

during age of apocalypse kurt nutraliwed deadpool by teleporting on him, and teleporting away with his head, an off voice said this happened in less than a second... I don't think Gambit can react fast enough to counter this.

Kurt stomps

#115 Edited by CheeseSticks (2359 posts) - - Show Bio

@clemj said:

during age of apocalypse kurt nutraliwed deadpool by teleporting on him, and teleporting away with his head, an off voice said this happened in less than a second... I don't think Gambit can react fast enough to counter this.

Kurt stomps

AoA Kurt has no morals, 616 Kurt would never do that.

Gambit wins because he can counter Kurt teleportation with his power and his agility.

#116 Edited by i_like_swords (12597 posts) - - Show Bio

I would say Gambit. Granted Nightcrawler has an increased agility, but by how much. Let's assume for the sake of argument that his teleportation abilities are completely energy based (in that he creates a kind of energy door and doesn't have to reassemble his atoms between teleportations). If that is the case then it is reasonable to assume that his teleportations are instantaneous, however that is really his only advantage. Being teleported to a new area for potentially a surprise attack is going to be only as fast as his reaction time. Is his reaction time faster than Gambit's? Maybe, but it doesn't matter, because Gambit has energy powers which are better than those of Nightcrawler. Put it this way ... have you ever touched something, only to realize too late that it was hot and it burned you? This is because the transfer of kinetic energy in the form of heat transfers far faster than human nervous system reaction time (and granted that is pretty fast). So the end result would be that if Gambit could get some energy charged items in the path of Nightcrawler then he is going to be able to incapacitate him. It is not going to be a quick victory, Nightcrawler is going to get a few hits from unexpected angles, but as soon as Gambit can anticipate the attacks he is going to be able to just throw a card there in anticipation of the attack, or throw out five cards in anticipation of the expected attacks. They have to go somewhere. Keep in mind too that Gambit is a skilled combatant and will be able to anticipate such attacks. Take away the main powers of both and Nightcrawler wins in a straight up hand-to-hand battle, but Gambit would be eventually victorious with the kinetic energy blasts. Teleportation looks cool, but it is more flash than substance in this battle.

I agree completely

#117 Posted by desmond006 (595 posts) - - Show Bio

I have to go with nightcrawler for the majority, right now I'm thinking 7/10 but I will wait to vote.

When considering physicals I have to give the slight edge to night crawler. When it comes to destructive power obviously Gambit wins. I do think nightcrawler would make better use of the environment.

I have not seen compelling arguments for either character yet. on this forum or in my own reading

#118 Posted by jashro44 (19149 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: @jashro44: This poll is why True Democracy fails everytime lol. God Bless my Modified Republic :)

Honestly I think this is close I just wish that the people voting nightcrawler would provide reasoning...Only a few users actually have.

#119 Posted by jashro44 (19149 posts) - - Show Bio

I have to go with nightcrawler for the majority, right now I'm thinking 7/10 but I will wait to vote.

When considering physicals I have to give the slight edge to night crawler. When it comes to destructive power obviously Gambit wins. I do think nightcrawler would make better use of the environment.

I have not seen compelling arguments for either character yet. on this forum or in my own reading

Elaborate why you are thinking nightcrawler?

#120 Posted by resurrectionist (22 posts) - - Show Bio

this appears to be a mismatch...so why haven't the moderators locked it yet?

#121 Posted by jashro44 (19149 posts) - - Show Bio
#122 Posted by Kerrigan (208 posts) - - Show Bio

A city at night? An alternate strategy for Kurt would be to port to the shadows and disappear with his shadow power. As far as I know Gambit has no particular detection abilities: Kurt could stalk him, wait for the right moment, and either coldcock Remy from behind, or use multiple quick ports to disable him.

#123 Posted by SC (12505 posts) - - Show Bio

@razzatazz said:

I would say Gambit. Granted Nightcrawler has an increased agility, but by how much. Let's assume for the sake of argument that his teleportation abilities are completely energy based (in that he creates a kind of energy door and doesn't have to reassemble his atoms between teleportations). If that is the case then it is reasonable to assume that his teleportations are instantaneous, however that is really his only advantage. Being teleported to a new area for potentially a surprise attack is going to be only as fast as his reaction time. Is his reaction time faster than Gambit's? Maybe, but it doesn't matter, because Gambit has energy powers which are better than those of Nightcrawler. Put it this way ... have you ever touched something, only to realize too late that it was hot and it burned you? This is because the transfer of kinetic energy in the form of heat transfers far faster than human nervous system reaction time (and granted that is pretty fast). So the end result would be that if Gambit could get some energy charged items in the path of Nightcrawler then he is going to be able to incapacitate him. It is not going to be a quick victory, Nightcrawler is going to get a few hits from unexpected angles, but as soon as Gambit can anticipate the attacks he is going to be able to just throw a card there in anticipation of the attack, or throw out five cards in anticipation of the expected attacks. They have to go somewhere. Keep in mind too that Gambit is a skilled combatant and will be able to anticipate such attacks. Take away the main powers of both and Nightcrawler wins in a straight up hand-to-hand battle, but Gambit would be eventually victorious with the kinetic energy blasts. Teleportation looks cool, but it is more flash than substance in this battle.

Great points, especially the one about heat transfer and human reaction times. Best argument for Gambit so far in my humble opinion.

That being said I think your forgetting the Fourth Law of Thermodynamics; pirates are cooler than thieves. Did you know that Kurt is often seen by many as a blue furry modern day version of Errol Flynn? Gambit? People usually confuse him for a homeless guy who hasn't showered or shaved in years. We have to acknowledge the implications of the application of personal grooming with both combatants. If Gambit lacks the intelligence to operate a soap dispenser can we really trust his abilities to effectively and efficiently charge objects the way a smart scientist like you could? I doubt it, if the characters are fighting in character here, it naturally means Gambit is barely sober! Kinetic energy may be faster than human nervous systems reaction times, but Drunken Gambit barely knows how to charge a phone let alone anything that Kurt might happen to be touching. Not only that but the bigger the object the more taxing it is for Gambit to charge. Its why he carries small cards with him, Kurt on the other hand can teleport multiple people. Now some say that size doesn't matter, but those people would be thieves, like Gambit.

Now many people have made the very good point that Gambit is cunning and knows Kurt well and so can exploit his weaknesses and undercut his strengths (such as using stealth and entering buildings to cut down on Kurt's ability to teleport freely) and also setting up Kurt and being extra alert and anticipating his movements enough to attack him mid teleport and where ever he is predicted to port to... Remy is skilled and cunning, but Nightcrawler is no Rhino. Kurt knows Gambit pretty well as well, and as such will should not underestimate him. Chances are the first thing Nightcrawler will do is teleport to the higher ground in the vicinity and removing Gambits ability to attack him completely. Kurt can observe as Drunken Gambit gets distracted by random woman walking around the generic down town city at night. Realistically eight out of ten of them will slap him for his lame 90's pick up lines. Kurt knows that agile and skilled fighters have predicted him in the past and that Gambit has extremely low standards and ultra relaxed morals and ethics and a particular strange odor, he won't rush in and he won't give Gambit any opportunity to predict his movement. He may even fake out the Cajun himself because lets face it, Gambit is cocky and Kurt is humble, if one of them is going to overestimate their abilities its gonna be the guy wearing bright pink neon and Axe body spray.

Another fun fact? Nightcrawler can see in the dark. Gambits eyes may be red as well, but thats from the hobo juice (Miller Lite probably) he is liquored up on. Yellow eyes also beat red eyes as far as sight in the dark. So this isn't a nighttime battle for Kurt at all, and he can literally blend into shadows. Another important note is that Kurt has unconscious extrasensory spatial awareness. Its the writers way of not having to explain half the stuff Nightcrawler does with teleporting how Nightcrawler can avoid teleporting into harmful objects out of sight. This ability isn't absolute but it will help provide a buffer for Nightcrawler should Gambit slip away or fall down a sewer drain after a drunken stumble. Lastly how does Kurt win? I have only talked about how Gambit doesn't win, well Kurt has a prehensile tail that is strong enough to actually lift a grown man of its own accord. He can even actually use a sword with it. Its also canon that Nightcrawler has a special spine that allows him to crouch more than Wolverine and Batman. Nightcrawler or Wall Crawler? Kurt has microscopic suction cups on his feet and hands. Speed? Kurt once armed, applied and triggered 6 bombs on Sentinels in 10 seconds. Really granted that Gambit doesn't just fly the white flag at the beginning or Kurt needs to do is teleport any sort of granular or liquid material's at Gambit and he doesn't need to be close to do it. He could rain bags of sand and soil (or like 100 other things) at the cajun, won't be a lethal attack, nor will it render Gambit unconscious but it will get in his eyes, mouth, nostrils and head sock and that sets up Gambit as a sitting duck basically. Then Kurt can either teleport punch him while his abilities are minimized or port a vase on his head to knock him out.

Teleportation does look cool but its Kurt's intimate knowledge of 1930's movies that gives him the edge he requires for victory here. =p

Moderator
#124 Edited by i_like_swords (12597 posts) - - Show Bio

I have to go with nightcrawler for the majority, right now I'm thinking 7/10 but I will wait to vote.

When considering physicals I have to give the slight edge to night crawler. When it comes to destructive power obviously Gambit wins. I do think nightcrawler would make better use of the environment.

I have not seen compelling arguments for either character yet. on this forum or in my own reading

Multiple people have written arguments for Gambit and provided scans to back up their claims. Right before your post I had just quoted one of the Mods massive paragraphs about their take on the fight. If you've taken nothing on board from what's been said so far then you aren't reading properly.

Having said all of that, neither you nor anyone else has actually made a case for Nightcrawler or provided any scans as proof.

#125 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@sc: I could go for some Hobo Juice, and get red eyes!

@god_spawn said:

Agreed. This thread has become somewhat disgusting. I feel like it kind of spits in the face of what happened last week with how well Cyclops vs Batman and went. Sure it had it's fair share of ignorance, but nothing like this.

I think it had more to do with DC vs Marvel at that point with some voters as well as the very thought out arguments by several other users including you that made it as good of a debate as it was, since it was Batman and Cyclops there's an equal amount of blind supporters and people who actually contributed to the thread making it an almost even and all around good debate. Nightcrawler has so much more popularity among fans than Gambit from what I've seen and this glorification of power sets is what gave people the idea that Nightcrawler's teleportation somehow makes him untouchable and able to beat certain characters without any need for clarification or reason.

This matched summed up.

#126 Posted by Lvenger (17855 posts) - - Show Bio

I can't believe Nightcrawler is winning when the supporters of Gambit have put up far more competent, well rounded and better supported arguments than any of the Nightcrawler supporters. It's sad to see that after the well debated Batman vs Cyclops match up last week, we get this utter popularity stomp now. For what my vote's worth having come into this debate unfamiliar with either character looking for the best arguments and feats to convince me as to who to vote, Gambit will get my vote. But if no one comes up with a good Nightcrawler argument, I might try and play devil's advocate somehow.

#127 Posted by SC (12505 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

I can't believe Nightcrawler is winning when the supporters of Gambit have put up far more competent, well rounded and better supported arguments than any of the Nightcrawler supporters. It's sad to see that after the well debated Batman vs Cyclops match up last week, we get this utter popularity stomp now. For what my vote's worth having come into this debate unfamiliar with either character looking for the best arguments and feats to convince me as to who to vote, Gambit will get my vote. But if no one comes up with a good Nightcrawler argument, I might try and play devil's advocate somehow.

Most of the pro Gambit arguments rely on Kurt teleporting enough around and close to Gambit for Gambit to use his familiarity and knowledge of Kurt to anticipate where he will port to and attack that support catching Kurt off guard. Its a sound strategy as it has been effective against Kurt before. Though it neglects Kurt's familiarity of Gambit, and all the bonuses this setting affords him, like his ability to see in the dark and meld into shadows. Kurts not intellectually deficient, whilst he might be written as being less proactive in stories, in a situation like this its the safer assumption that he will put distance between him and Gambits explosive and super firepower. From there his powers give him dramatically superior stealth and stalking abilities. Also many of the pro Gambit arguments suppose Nightcrawler will attack more directly than say ensnaring or using less risky tactics. Sure Gambit could predict where Kurt might teleport into a room if Kurt is trying to teleport and then kick him, but what if Kurt teleports a fire hydrant into the room aimed at Gambit without getting too close. Kurt basically gets the luxury of playing defensively and safely and neither character will use their powers that aggressively given how dangerous both can be. Much like Batman/Cyclops Kurt has more options and versatility for non lethal attacks.

You should do a devils advocate post though too, I bet it would be great! ^_^ - let me know if you want scans or anything, I personally don't really care about their use but I don't mind scanning in for other people.

Moderator
#128 Posted by Lvenger (17855 posts) - - Show Bio

@sc: The Viner Argument of the week can't have scans in. But your case for Kurt was pretty well rounded.

#129 Posted by The_Absolute (892 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: If this fight were being fought in the danger room, I'd agree that Nightcrawler's 'porting predictability would be high; I also agree that the Cajun is pretty fast and agile, perhaps even more so than the Elf. However, this fight takes place in a city environment and at night. This element is affords Kurt the upperhand.

Having said that, Gambit is much more of a fighter, a combatant, through and through than NC. Combat and skulduggery are much more Gambit's speed. While Nightcrawler can indeed utilize stealth tactics more effectively than Gambit in this setting, I don't think that NC has the heart or mind for that type of strategy. As it's been shown he'd rather take a more direct approach, supposing it's his swashbuckling spirit.

Based on powers and skill, I would give it to Nightcrawler; but with this being in character, - in a style vs style match, I'd say to give it to Gambit.

#130 Posted by schillenger420 (816 posts) - - Show Bio

This being a morals on brawl helps Gambit quite a bit. Given his past as a thief he'll fight clever and dirty. Kurt on the other hand is an ex monk/priest. He'll not want to fight dirty/clever unless he's getting his butt kicked or innocents are in danger. As close as this fight seems to be.... Gambit's ability to strategize and come up with a plan on the fly (something he would have HAD to do as a thief) will help him greatly. It's also my understanding that due to the nature of Gambit's powers, his speed and agility are enhanced by his ability to control energy. On the other hand, he is fighting Kurt... a guy who is ambidextrous, both with his hands AND feet... and who also has a prehensile tale. (means he can use it almost like it's a fifth limb). Oh yeah Kurt also teleports. The downside to Kurt's teleporting is he can only do it so many times before getting tired. He's also shown in the past to be predictable with where he teleports and he only generally teleports in line of site.... he doesn't like to teleport through walls for example. All that being said... The quickest way for a morals on Kurt to win would be, teleport to Gambit, grab him, and teleport away with him a couple times. It's my understanding this disorientates people to the point that they become physically ill. I don't think Kurt would then KO him, but it would leave Gambit on the ground vomiting with Nightcrawler standing over him, sad that he had to do this to his friend. To my mind that's a win as Gambit is no longer able to defend himself. This fight could easily be argued either way, but if Nightcrawler wants to end this fight in a hurry, that's what he does, and if Nightcrawler get's that initial port and grab.... Gambit's screwed. Nightcrawler for the win 7/10

#131 Posted by jashro44 (19149 posts) - - Show Bio

@jack_vii:

If this fight were being fought in the danger room, I'd agree that Nightcrawler's 'porting predictability would be high; I also agree that the Cajun is pretty fast and agile, perhaps even more so than the Elf. However, this fight takes place in a city environment and at night. This element is affords Kurt the upperhand.

I don't see why nightcrawler is more or less predictable outside of the danger room? And the problem here is none of my examples were in the danger room and you still have characters calling him predictable. Admittedly yes the fact this fight takes place at night does help nightcrawler.

However Gambit himself was a master thief. So he probably has a lot of stealth feats. Admittedly I am unaware what those feats are (@god_spawn do you know any stealth feats for gambit?). If nightcrawler goes to distance himself into an ally way he can't look away from gambit for very long I would imagine.

Having said that, Gambit is much more of a fighter, a combatant, through and through than NC. Combat and skulduggery are much more Gambit's speed. While Nightcrawler can indeed utilize stealth tactics more effectively than Gambit in this setting, I don't think that NC has the heart or mind for that type of strategy. As it's been shown he'd rather take a more direct approach, supposing it's his swashbuckling spirit.

I agree.

Based on powers and skill, I would give it to Nightcrawler; but with this being in character, - in a style vs style match, I'd say to give it to Gambit.

I agree with this. On paper I think nightcrawler takes this but in character I think Gambit is more efficient.

#132 Posted by javancain16 (136 posts) - - Show Bio

Nightcrawler!

#133 Posted by ChocolateFrogs (141 posts) - - Show Bio

I love Nightcrawler, but I think Gambit would win. My first thought was Nightcrawler would just become exhausted if he used his teleportation powers too much, and Gambit would overpower him. But he's smart enough not to be bested like that. So the two would get in a duel with swords vs forestaff, but I think Gambit would win because he could use his power to make virtually anything in the area explode. His cards, Nightcrawler's swords, surrounding cars, etc. Using this, he would distract and defeat Nightcrawler.

#134 Posted by lykopis (10756 posts) - - Show Bio

Here are some fun "scans" showing feats of Nightcrawler to shore up his winning of this battle, independent of his teleporting power which others seem to think is his only "maybe" chance:

While with the Excaliburs (leader, I might add) - Kurt's ability to teleport was severely diminished, to the point he could only do so once a day and at great loss of strength to himself. This was easy enough for him to overcome due to his superior skills in agility and flexibility - not just due to physiological reasons but also because of a life spent as an acrobat with a circus -

Such as surviving a fall from an extraordinarily higher Empire State Building due to the Goblin Queen, exceeding it's original height many times over:

Extremely agile and quick to dodge not just punches thrown by various characters, but machine gun fire as well:

Plus his handy ability to crawl/walk on walls like Spider Man

Not to mention his combat ability (free of swords) proving durability against the likes of Captain Britain and Spider-Man (contrary to those who claim PIS- at the very least, Spider Man says Kurt is as agile as himself) plus he's slammed a metal pole through the head of a sentinel and took on larger characters, causing damage:

His tail is pretty handy -- not just for swinging a blade, but for carrying the weight of a large human male as well:

In addition to being strong enough to pack a whallop against sentinels and powerful beings, he can suspend a large human male off the side of the building, one-handed and throw opponents over him despite being weakened by multiple ports across a desert:

He can see in the dark and meld into the shadows:

And all of this, primarily without the use of his teleportation powers -- which can arguably take out Gambit on it's own. He has shown to jump free of that power in less time than it took Cyclops to get out of the way of a Sentinel in true Zorro style:

I have more scans, using his teleportation powers is such a way as to show intent and near instantaneous reflexes but I will rest my case here.

However, I voted Gambit. Just to offset the supposed bias in Nightcrawler's favour.

#135 Posted by Power NeXus (9899 posts) - - Show Bio

Did you fools really think you could make a battle like this without me showing up??

Anyway, this is an EXTREMELY close match in my opinion, but I'm leaning my vote towards Nightcrawler.

Gambit's immediate response in nearly any fight is a good old fashioned full-frontal attack. Ya know, a handful of charged cards at his opponents' face. Nightcrawler bread and butter in combat is avoiding attacks like that. I've got a whole file of scans of Nightcrawler dodging laser beams, bullets, and other projectiles of various kinds with incredible ease. And that's without even teleporting. Basically, Gambit's usual ranged advantage is absolutely null. His powers will still be of use to him, but there is absolutely no way he'll ever hit Nightcrawler without getting creative. Basic throws will get him absolutely nowhere.

Now, before you try to use the "Cyclops says Nightcrawler is predictable" argument, keep in mind that there have been VERY few periods in the X-Men's history during which Nightcrawler and Gambit were active members on the same team at the same time.

Since Gambit's range advantage is basically going to be nullified, its pretty safe to assume that this fight will be won via hand-to-hand combat. Admittedly, Gambit does have an advantage in raw skill (not by a lot, but still), and Gambit also has an advantage in the fact that he has a staff whereas Nightcrawler is unarmed, Nevertheless, I am fairly sure that Nightcrawler's powers give him more of an edge than Gambit's skill and staff give him. Gambit has been shown to have excellent reaction time, but Nightcrawler has developed an entire fighting style around teleporting around opponents multiple times within a second, literally porting as rapidly as he can punch. Gambit could see him coming from one direction and block his attack, but I don't think he can keep it up consistantly for the whole fight. Nightcrawler is going to land hits. And due to his extreme speed and manuverability advantage, Nightcrawler is going to land more hits early on than Gambit will.

Furthermore, I think it could be argued that Nightcrawler's strength and damage soak levels are slightly superior to Gambit's. When Nightcrawler was created, he was originally intended to have very low-tier superhuman strength. This power was essentially retconned when it was forgotten about in the first Marvel handbooks, but some of his strength feats (particularly in his earlier days) are a step above Olympic level. So despite the fact that he no longer has superhuman strength as a power, he still has feats that make him slightly stronger than most other characters of human-level strength.

So let me put it like this,
Range: edge - Gambit (its basically useless though)
Strength: edge - Nightcrawler (barely)
Speed/manuverability: edge - Nightcrawler (by a LOT)
Agility: equal
Reaction time: equal
Fighting skill: edge - Gambit (not by much)
Weapons: edge - Gambit


I shall procede to put scans for support in a separate post (I glitch up a lot when I put text and pics in the same post).

#136 Posted by Power NeXus (9899 posts) - - Show Bio
Fights Kylun (a very skilled fighter) in a surprise attack, in the bathroom, with a broken leg.
Effortlessly dodging automatic gunfire without even teleporting.
Taking a hit from Sebastian Shaw is a good feat for damage soak.
Wolverine (Death) comments on just how 'flamin smart' he is.
Surprise attack, dodge, KO.
Makes Brian Braddock say OW.
Easily supports a grown man's weight with one arm held almost horizontally.
Putting a beatdown on a 30-foot troll with his fists.
KOs Frog-Man (whose suit gives him low-tier superhuman strength and durability) in one hit.
Crushes a Sentine's skull with a metal pipe.

#137 Posted by God_Spawn (37140 posts) - - Show Bio

@power_nexus: I was waiting for you to show up. You seemed a little late to the party. Anyways, great case, Nexus. I still think Gambit takes a slight majority, but I felt like your case was a fair assessment and didn't make it out to be a stomp like some users thought.

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#138 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

Do the scans and arguments matter now? Nightcralwer won on Popularity merit alone already lol.

#139 Posted by jashro44 (19149 posts) - - Show Bio

Good to see there are arguments for nightcrawler at least.

#140 Posted by robertloucksjr (1636 posts) - - Show Bio

Nightcrawler as I think his powers fit the environment better and he will eke out a small majority using sneak attacks and hit and run.

#141 Posted by schillenger420 (816 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Bring some scans Cadence. I voted Nightcrawler based on how the fight is set up. Nightcrawler would try to beat Gambit without hurting him, so he just grabs Gambit, teleports a few times, making Gambit too sick to fight. Flawless Victory. Easy and quick win. If you can provide some Gambit scan's I'd genuinely love to see em. Gambit's a beast in my opinion, but this is the wrong fight for him.

#142 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Bring some scans Cadence. I voted Nightcrawler based on how the fight is set up. Nightcrawler would try to beat Gambit without hurting him, so he just grabs Gambit, teleports a few times, making Gambit too sick to fight. Flawless Victory. Easy and quick win. If you can provide some Gambit scan's I'd genuinely love to see em. Gambit's a beast in my opinion, but this is the wrong fight for him.

I have Ultimate Gambit. Wanna see those lol.

#143 Posted by God_Spawn (37140 posts) - - Show Bio

@power_nexus:

I actually missed this part.

Range: edge - Gambit (its basically useless though)

Strength: edge - Nightcrawler (barely)

Speed/manuverability: edge - Nightcrawler (by a LOT)

Agility: equal

Reaction time: equal

Fighting skill: edge - Gambit (not by much)

Weapons: edge - Gambit

I can agree with some of this. Kurt does have better strength feats and both are incredibly agile, but I do hope you mean he outclasses him in maneuverability because of teleporting. And maybe in terms of dodging they have similar reflex feats, but I don't see Kurt having as many bullet deflecting feats as Gambit does. As far as reflex/dodge goes, I can see where you're coming from in reaction time to say it is even, but in actual combat speed of action/reaction, I see Gambit as outclassing him by a noticeable margin.

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#144 Edited by schillenger420 (816 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Absolutely. As someone who didn't get to read comics as a kid I love seeing scans and feats. Thing is I don't argue by them. If your going to argue by scans than Spiderman beats Firelord, and we all know that to be PIS.....

#145 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Absolutely. As someone who didn't get to read comics as a kid I love seeing scans and feats. Thing is I don't argue by them. If your going to argue by scans than Spiderman beats Firelord, and we all know that to be PIS.....

So you argue with no proof but whatever you decide to type up?

We use Scans for Context and Proof.

#146 Posted by The_Absolute (892 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: The Danger room as in an open space with no shadows, props or obstacles.

#147 Posted by jashro44 (19149 posts) - - Show Bio

@jack_vii said:

@jashro44: The Danger room as in an open space with no shadows, props or obstacles.

All right. All though we did agree that nightcrawler probably wouldn't go into the shadows, and I don't really believe the rest of that stuff would make nightcrawler less predictable.

#148 Posted by Taylors005 (107 posts) - - Show Bio

remy and kurt are both very familiar with each other and thats why i have to favor gambit over nightcrawler

gambit will throw cards just to provoke nightcrawler into teleporting closer and i really feel every punch gambit throws will be just a distraction while he's slipping a charged card into nightccrawlers belt with all the skill of a pickpocket

#149 Posted by Wandering_Payne (13 posts) - - Show Bio

I wrote an earlier post, but people seem to be underestimating Nightcrawler, so here are some tangible reasons he would take out Gambit.

1st – Teleportation. Nightcrawler is fast when he teleports, faster than the Ragin’ Cajun. Sure Cyclops took him out once, but that is because Cyclops had spent countless hours training with Nightcrawler and knew him better than most. Gambit doesn’t have that depth of knowledge. The others who have taken him out when he is teleporting have superior senses, which Remy doesn’t.

He can also take out an opponent by picking them up and taking them for a ride. If that takes down Callisto, who is stronger and more resilient than a normal human, it will take out Remy.

2nd – Strength. Able to KO Shi’ar solders (who are stronger than humans) through body armor. Kurt packs one hell of a punch.

3rd – Skill. Nightcrawler is an incredibly skilled combatant who can hold his own against much more powerful opponents or groups even without teleporting. If he had swords in hand it would be an even more lopsided fight.

4th – Physiology. Much mention has been made about Kurt’s tail which is strong enough to pick up a grown man yet nimble enough to fence. He also is more flexible than a normal human and his feet can be used as hands.

5th – Stealth. Through a combination of Kurt’s indigo fur and a byproduct of his teleportation power, he can disappear when in deep shadows. This gives him an unmatched advantage over even a skilled thief.

6th- Heart. Kurt is a born swashbuckler and warrior. There is a reason he and Logan are such good friends. While he has morals, he still lives for the fight. He might not be as ruthless as his AoA counterpart, but Kurt won’t back down and will keep at it until Remy is down for the count.

#150 Posted by redhood21 (772 posts) - - Show Bio

@teclo said:

Unglaublich!

you always say this word. i do not think this word means what you think it means.