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Posted by k4tzm4n (35206 posts) 7 months, 9 days ago

Comic Vine Battle of the Week VOTING: Gambit vs. Nightcrawler (459 votes)

Gambit 29%
Nightcrawler 65%
Too close to call 6%
Remy or Kurt? GET YOUR ELABORATION ON, VINERS!

Match Rules

  • Combatants are in character (this means morals are on, people).
  • This is a random encounter.
  • They're fighting in a generic downtown city setting. It's unpopulated, at night and all standard city lights remain on. Assume they start roughly 20 feet apart and visible. There's a fair amount of cover between them (parked vehicles, bus stops and such). The entire area is on limits. This means alleys, rooftops, building interiors, etc..
  • All characters have standard gear.
  • Incapacitation, knockout or death all count as elimination.
  • "But Nightcrawler is dead" isn't an original comment. This is obviously pre-death Kurt.
  • And speaking of death, Gambit's horseman powers will not come into play.

Viners, you have the week to research, debate and vote! This means there's no reason to vote right away if you don't have all of the info you need to make an educated decision. Check the homepage Friday for an updated article with the following:

  • My extended thoughts on the match.
  • A Viner Argument in favor of the poll's winner (can't include scans and must be in the poll thread).
  • Extra thoughts from other Comic Vine staffers.
  • If we're lucky, blurbs from industry talent.

Feel free to make future match suggestions in the comments below or via Gregg's Twitter page.

#51 Posted by jashro44 (16462 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@jwalser3 said:

NightCrawler. Can Gambit even react if he teleports behind him?

I don't see why not.

Agreed. Many characters can and have predicted Night Crawler Teleports. Just because he Teleports does not mean NC has faster than Peak Human Thought Reaction Speeds. Gambit will tag him and put the greater hurt on him.

Gambit wins.

Yea I think nightcrawler is overrated to be honest....He isn't used often in battle forums but people give his ports way to much credit.

#52 Posted by God_Spawn (35981 posts) - - Show Bio

I posted this in the article thread.

I'll be the odd man out and go Gambit. Kurt is by no means going to teleslam Gambit on pavement. He is not going to kill his friend. This also means he won't teledismember anything either. Kurt is also not untouchable, considering both the Punisher and even Wendigo have hit him before. One of Kurt's biggest flaws is that he is predictable. Cyclops has predicted Kurt's patterns numerous times. Iron Fist noticed the brimstone smell of his ports and was able to attack when he ported to him. Daredevil has noticed it (but given his sense of smell, of course he can.) Gambit's a skilled fighter in his own right when it comes to his agility, staff fighting skills, and craftiness. His agility and skill were enough to battle Daredevil while leaping across rooftops, and DD's agility is better than even some superhumans. Gambit's also got some of the best reflex feats street levelers have to offer. He's fast enough to deflect bullets on multiple occasions from even machine gunfire. He's caught grenade shells shot at him and thrown back. He was fast and accurate enough to throw charged cards into oncoming web balls from Spider-Man before.

So someone who has reflex feats beyond some of the people who have tagged Kurt and has ran with him enough times to know how he operates and is smart enough to exploit them should be able to counter Kurt's one advantage he has. Cyclops has shown this is possible. While I will admit there is a big difference between Cyclops and Gambit in tactical abilities, Gambit is by no means an idiot and is extremely cunning. Gambit is quick enough and skill enough to respond and react to Kurt. If people who haven't even fought Nightcrawler before can pick this out, no reason Gambit can't. And unlike Kurt, Gambit has ranged attacks and it is perfectly possible Gambit can lure Kurt in. He sees him, throws some cards, Kurt ports to his location, and boom. Gambit lays a charged card with a simple sleight of hand. Given that Kurt also has his shadowmeld ability, Gambit is incredibly stealthy himself. A city setting at night suits him just fine.

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#53 Posted by Pokergeist (22307 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n: @jashro44 said:

0_o gambit only has 24%?

I know 0_0. I think people confuse Teleportation with light speed or something.

Example, Ultimate Nightcralwer.

As seen, Ultimate Kurt is a very skilled Teleporter himself, however it can be countered by skillful foes.

Now lets see how this works with 616 Kurt!

1) Tagged by Cyclopes who predicted where he will go.

2-3) Tagged by Iron Fist twice who predicted where he can go as well being faster than NC reaction.

4) Wolverine is faster than NC reaction!

5) As Kurt states, he is not as fast as Spidey in reaction time!

How is this so one sided!?

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#54 Posted by jwalser3 (4411 posts) - - Show Bio

Agreed. Many characters can and have predicted Night Crawler Teleports. Just because he Teleports does not mean NC has faster than Peak Human Thought Reaction Speeds. Gambit will tag him and put the greater hurt on him.

Gambit wins.

While looking around I found scans of Night Crawler dancing around X-23 and dodging point blank gun fire. He seems to be on the same level with Gambit. I don't see why he couldn't dodge Gambit's projectiles and pop up from the side and take him out.

#55 Posted by spidermonkey2099 (596 posts) - - Show Bio

Gambit would put up a good fight, but in the end, thanks to his superior agility and his teleportation, Nightcrawler would dance circles around Gambit, slapping him silly, and eventually making him say "uncle", in the process.

#56 Edited by Pokergeist (22307 posts) - - Show Bio

@jwalser3 said:

@cadencev2 said:

Agreed. Many characters can and have predicted Night Crawler Teleports. Just because he Teleports does not mean NC has faster than Peak Human Thought Reaction Speeds. Gambit will tag him and put the greater hurt on him.

Gambit wins.

While looking around I found scans of Night Crawler dancing around X-23 and dodging point blank gun fire. He seems to be on the same level with Gambit. I don't see why he couldn't dodge Gambit's projectiles and pop up from the side and take him out.

Because Anyone can dodge bullets Point Blank, and Gambit personally knows Night Crawler and his moves. Also IMO Gambit is by far more skilled fighter than NC.

Also Gambits morals are way more lax IMO.

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#57 Posted by jashro44 (16462 posts) - - Show Bio

@jwalser3 said:

@cadencev2 said:

Agreed. Many characters can and have predicted Night Crawler Teleports. Just because he Teleports does not mean NC has faster than Peak Human Thought Reaction Speeds. Gambit will tag him and put the greater hurt on him.

Gambit wins.

While looking around I found scans of Night Crawler dancing around X-23 and dodging point blank gun fire. He seems to be on the same level with Gambit. I don't see why he couldn't dodge Gambit's projectiles and pop up from the side and take him out.

X-23 is formidable but she isn't quite as fast or skilled as gambit. Gambit has been able to match daredevil move for move, deflect multiple bullets pretty easily and has shown some good accuracy. As @cadencev2 showed nightcrawlers ports can and have been predicted. Several characters have remarked they are predictable. Its not that much of a stretch to believe someone like gambit who knows nightcrawler really well can predict his ports and tag him.

#58 Edited by i_like_swords (7613 posts) - - Show Bio

Gambit would put up a good fight, but in the end, thanks to his superior agility and his teleportation, Nightcrawler would dance circles around Gambit, slapping him silly, and eventually making him say "uncle", in the process.

..or Gambit just blows him up.

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#59 Posted by MadeinBangladesh (4994 posts) - - Show Bio

Voted for ma boy Nightcrawler!

#60 Edited by Darkseid_Prime (115 posts) - - Show Bio

Dude this was a way cooler segment when it was the whole WTF scenarios but this just feels like an argument at the mansion gone wrong that leads them to head to the unpopulated city of broken dreams... it doesn't feel random at all.

When are we going to get CHRISTIAN BALE vs BEN AFFLECK fight? The celebrities in a random encounter, both have standard celebrity gear, it's on clear night just before sunset in LA, The entire area is on limits. This means alleys, rooftops, building interiors, etc. and both have been drinking.

  • Incapacitation, knockout or death all count as elimination.
#61 Posted by krspaceT (1458 posts) - - Show Bio

The big decisive issue here is morals, and I feel like it would be like a battle between Superman and Wolverine

Here, Kurt is Superman. He has a very One Turn Kill power in Teleportation and his blade, but Kurt doesn't kill (Lest we be mentioning AoA Nightcrawler).

Gambit is Wolverine, somewhat weaker and less of a One Turn Kill if we take advantage of the organic rule, but he will kill and use lethal force.

The question in the imaged fight is if Adamantium can cut Superman, not if Superman will fly Wolverine into the sun. But Kurt isn't immune to exploding Jacks and 7's, so Gambit just has to hit him. Last I checked, Kurt is just a furry and tailed human who can preach, he lacks the powers that would allow him to endure a direct explosion

He is not Cap

#62 Edited by k4tzm4n (35206 posts) - - Show Bio

@darkseid_prime: It was never my goal to make "random" matches -- just matches that can generate good debates.

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#63 Posted by jwalser3 (4411 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: I could say the same for Nightcrawler. Knowing he's moves and all that. All I was getting at was they seem to be on par with one another.

#64 Posted by Darkseid_Prime (115 posts) - - Show Bio

@darkseid_prime: Next week we'll see RUSSELL CROWE vs MATT DAMON -- (pre Civil-War Damon with no Jason Bourne skills) (post crisis Crowe with no Gladiator or Jor-El skills)

#65 Edited by jwalser3 (4411 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

  1. Cyclopes guessed were he was going to be. He didn't know the exact location.
  2. Yeah
  3. IF still got knocked around a few times
  4. Yeah the spider sense is a bit OP

If you really want to try and low ball. Then I should bring up the time Bullseye schooled Gambit at his own game and Captain America beat him in AVX.

#66 Edited by viin (493 posts) - - Show Bio

im going with the amazing nightcrawler.

#67 Posted by Pokergeist (22307 posts) - - Show Bio

@jwalser3 said:

@cadencev2:

  1. Cyclopes guessed were he was going to be. He didn't know the exact location.
  2. Yeah
  3. IF still got knocked around a few times
  4. Yeah the spider sense is a bit OP

If you really want to try and low ball. Then I should bring up the time Bullseye schooled Gambit at his own game and Captain America beat him in AVX.

Losing to Bullseye and Cap is lowball? lol.

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#68 Posted by greenlucario (189 posts) - - Show Bio

This would be so awesome! It's killing to have to choose between my two favorite X-Men! But gotta give it to Nightcrawler by a little bit. But never count Gambit out he's unpredictable and has shown in the past he can use that to his advantage.

#69 Edited by Blood_Red_Rage (508 posts) - - Show Bio

Gambit.

#70 Edited by jashro44 (16462 posts) - - Show Bio

All right Here are some scans of why I believe Gambit takes this. These scans have all ready been uploaded but I am uploading them again just to remind everyone:

Here we see various comments on nightcrawlers ports. The first scan is iron fist and nightcrawlers first encounter. Iron fist didn't know any thing about nightcrawler and yet he was able to predict his ports. And not only that but iron fist states there is one second between nightcrawlers punch and his ports. So there not an instantaneous thing. He has to think and actually punch gambit before he ports away. Next one is cyclops remarking how nightcrawler likes to teleport above people (an observation his team mates have probably made). The prior scan to wolverine punching nightcrawler he used a stealth trick to disappear. He knew nightcrawler would teleport down and look for him and then he got ambushed. This is just to further show its not just cyclops who predicts his ports. Again we see cyclops toss wolverine at nightcrawler so he tries to port above cyclops to attack. Cyclops knew this and tags him.

The point of these scans is to show that nightcrawlers ports have been predictable and this increases the odds of him getting tagged. Gambit being a teammate has probably observed nightcrawlers ports and probably knows nightcrawler likes to attack from above. So he has a very strong chance of guessing nightcrawlers ports.

Moving on to Gambits reflexes.

The first 2 scans he deflects bullets with ease. Next he gets surprised by rubber bullets and dodges the shot and the second scan is a nice showing of the potential radius of his blasts. The final scan shows Gambit catching an RPG. I haven't seen much to indicate from nightcrawler that he has the reflexes of gambit. And another thing to consider is that gambit would also have better reach in melee due to his staff.

Now for accuracy.

First scan is self explanatory. The second scan shows gambit is accurate even when he is using his agility. The next scan doubles as both a reaction and a accuracy feat. Gambit shoots spider-mans web balls out of the air (spider-man has used his webbing to create shields after bullets have been fired). Next 2 Gambit throws his cards down sabretooths throat.

I know it sounds like I am down playing nightcrawler but the major point of the scans of him being tagged isn't to show him getting tagged. Its to show that his ports are predictable. Read cyclops comment about his ports. He knew where nightcrawler was. He didn't guess. Iron fist didn't know anything about nightcrawler and he was able to predict his ports after a short bit. Gambits reflexes are sufficient enough to tag nightcrawler and so is his accuracy.

#71 Posted by jwalser3 (4411 posts) - - Show Bio

@jwalser3 said:

@cadencev2:

  1. Cyclopes guessed were he was going to be. He didn't know the exact location.
  2. Yeah
  3. IF still got knocked around a few times
  4. Yeah the spider sense is a bit OP

If you really want to try and low ball. Then I should bring up the time Bullseye schooled Gambit at his own game and Captain America beat him in AVX.

Losing to Bullseye and Cap is lowball? lol.

Losing to freaking Spiderman and Wolverine is something bad? Lol

#72 Posted by Pokergeist (22307 posts) - - Show Bio

@jwalser3 said:

@cadencev2 said:

@jwalser3 said:

@cadencev2:

  1. Cyclopes guessed were he was going to be. He didn't know the exact location.
  2. Yeah
  3. IF still got knocked around a few times
  4. Yeah the spider sense is a bit OP

If you really want to try and low ball. Then I should bring up the time Bullseye schooled Gambit at his own game and Captain America beat him in AVX.

Losing to Bullseye and Cap is lowball? lol.

Losing to freaking Spiderman and Wolverine is something bad? Lol

Of course not, your the one who said thats low balling. My point was merely to all the Voters who have this assumption NC is Light Speed in attack and reaction because of Instant TP.

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#73 Posted by DEGRAAF (7811 posts) - - Show Bio

Nightcrawler

#74 Posted by jwalser3 (4411 posts) - - Show Bio
#75 Posted by Schmalzel (273 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n: I think Kurt, in a very tough battle. Both have morals so Gambit isn't going to be charging things to kill and trying to take him out full throttle here, I think Kurts ability to just teleport will be the key. Gambit could lay a bigger hurt with his charged cards/items, but Kurt won't go down right away and I think he takes it to the Cajun. (Despite Gambit being one of my favorites)

#76 Posted by kilon (108 posts) - - Show Bio

come on nightcrawler. wht about the stick and the cards that explode

#77 Posted by hulk_post_absolute_power (291 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks: I like to mention gambits already beat him 2 times and night crawler has never beaten gambit.

#78 Posted by tparks (2337 posts) - - Show Bio
#79 Posted by Wandering_Payne (13 posts) - - Show Bio

Okay, they spot each other and decide to throw down. Gambit throws a card and blows up a nearby car and Kurt teleports away. Kurt can then either disappear by hiding in the shadows of an alley or go straight on the offensive doing multiple ports and knocks Remy out with a bunch of hits or pick him up and do a quick succession of teleports which messes people up fast. Most of the people who have been able to tag Nightcrawler out when he is teleporting either have heightened senses or know Kurt's style well enough to predict his teleportation pattern. While Remy is quick and cunning he doesn't have the edge to do a preemptive strike. Fuzzy Elf takes it 8 out of 10.

#80 Posted by stu (375 posts) - - Show Bio

Iam going with Gambit. Remy as superior fighting skills plus hes power can be use from far and up close.Fighting a teleporter is nothing new to Gambit hes done that before many times. While on the other hand Kurt as never went againt someone with gambits power ( except when they train together and trainning and a real fight or 2 different thing).

Gambit is also known for is amazing reflexes wich will help fighting a teleporter.Plus remy as no problem playing cheat to win while kurt is usually so honest even in battle.

gambit wins 6/10

(sorry for my writing english isnt my first tongue)

#81 Posted by GraniteSoldier (4507 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm pretty neutral for both of these guys, I'll wait till later in the week to vote after I read up some. My wife named her cat Gambit though, so I'm leaning him right now to make her happy. Is that a valid argument?

#82 Edited by jstarzyk (313 posts) - - Show Bio

No question: Nightcrawler.

#83 Posted by jashro44 (16462 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm pretty neutral for both of these guys, I'll wait till later in the week to vote after I read up some. My wife named her cat Gambit though, so I'm leaning him right now to make her happy. Is that a valid argument?

Your wife would be pretty upset...Gambit is getting creamed.

#84 Posted by MonsterStomp (13118 posts) - - Show Bio

Waiting for someone to put up an argument for Nightcrawler. I know the dude teleports and all (which was why I was thinking he'd win), but @jashro44 just made a case that his ports are predictable and Gambit has the reflexes/reaction to counter them. I still remain undecided for now.

#85 Posted by GraniteSoldier (4507 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@granitesoldier said:

I'm pretty neutral for both of these guys, I'll wait till later in the week to vote after I read up some. My wife named her cat Gambit though, so I'm leaning him right now to make her happy. Is that a valid argument?

Your wife would be pretty upset...Gambit is getting creamed.

Well, I did a little bit of reading, not enough yet, but if Gambit's getting creamed I'm going to make a devil's advocate argument and give a debate why I think Gambit could win then.

#86 Posted by jashro44 (16462 posts) - - Show Bio

@granitesoldier: Nightcrawler has 67% of the votes. Gambit has 26, and the rest are too close to call.

#87 Posted by GraniteSoldier (4507 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44:

Wow, that is...surprising. Not so much that Kurt is winning, but by such a large margin. I must lend assistance! I'll try to make a good argument and post tomorrow.

#88 Posted by jashro44 (16462 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44:

Wow, that is...surprising. Not so much that Kurt is winning, but by such a large margin. I must lend assistance! I'll try to make a good argument and post tomorrow.

I know. I would have thought this would be close....I was amazed to find out the results were that off.

#89 Posted by ravisher (605 posts) - - Show Bio

nightcrawler

not even close

#90 Posted by Sherlock (7088 posts) - - Show Bio

Over the years Kurt hasn't really changed his fighting style very much and has on multiple occasions been tagged by people who know how he fights.

Remy knows Kurt very well. The scan K4tz posted showcases one of Kurt's most frequently used methods of attack that being teleporting above someone to tackle them. IIRC Cyclips tagged him doing that in at least one occasion

Due to Nightcrawlers predictable fighting style I would have to give the win to Gambit

#91 Posted by MonsterStomp (13118 posts) - - Show Bio

@ravisher said:

nightcrawler

not even close

How?

#92 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (10235 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n: gotcha

@jack_vii said:

@ancient_0f_days: reaction speed - I don't think Kurt will 'port then throw a punch, he'd most likely have thrown a punch or kick prior to 'porting - reappearing the instance his hit is to make contact then 'porting out not allowing Remy the opportunity to counter. Teleportation trumps speed. Teleportation is ulitmate speed.

Tell that to Cyclops and other members of the X-men who know Kurt and can not only tag him but predict where he'll show up. Anyway, Remy is faster than Nightcrawler, he caught a projectile shot at him (may or may not be at bullet speed), not only is he a casual bullet/laser dodger but he makes it look easy, a knife was thrown and was caught when it was an inch away from his face...

not only does he dodge bullets easily, but he displays agility to rival that of nightcrawler while he does it

More reaction speed (bullet dodging/laser blocking)

More of everything...

He's above Kurt as far as I've seen in speed and easily comparable in agility, now for Remy's combat speed against legitimate super human's with superhuman speed ..... Such as squaring off with and dodging Blade who has super human speed and decades of fighting experience/skill...

Gambit dodges Spider-Man who is also quite super human in speed and a casual bullet timer ...

Gambit hangs with Wolverine who is also a casual bullet blocker/dodger, known for his incredible speed as well as one of the most skilled individuals on Marvel Earth.

Last but not least, the speed at which he can charge objects for a simple KO....

And with that I can safely say that Gambit wins, teleporting around won't work when he gets tagged by an exploding card or is caught when he reappears since Remy is most likely going to predict his next move and slap him with a staff....what's your excuse?

#93 Posted by MonsterStomp (13118 posts) - - Show Bio
#94 Posted by dondave (26629 posts) - - Show Bio

Gambit

#95 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (10235 posts) - - Show Bio
#96 Posted by The_Titan_Lord (4465 posts) - - Show Bio

Night crawler.

#97 Posted by MonsterStomp (13118 posts) - - Show Bio

@monsterstomp said:

@ancient_0f_days: Nice scans there man.

thanks, too bad I waited 9 hours to post em huh ....

I'm making a logical decision. Sucks that no one has made an argument for Nightcrawler yet :/ I'm siding with Gambit for now but I won't vote until I see something else.

#98 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (10235 posts) - - Show Bio

Night crawler.

Proof?

I'm making a logical decision. Sucks that no one has made an argument for Nightcrawler yet :/ I'm siding with Gambit for now but I won't vote until I see something else.

Well, with morals on they can't say he'll grab Gambit and teleport him into the air and drop him or port his head off ... that's mostly what we get with Nightcrawler in debates against characters he has no distinct advantages over.

#99 Edited by RedheadedAtrocitus (6885 posts) - - Show Bio

Nightcrawler I say.

#100 Posted by Pokergeist (22307 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: @jashro44: This poll is why True Democracy fails everytime lol. God Bless my Modified Republic :)

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