Comic Vine Battle of the Week VOTING: Elektra vs. Shredder

This thread is going places.

I say Elektra annihilates him,but that's just me.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f98/t502532.html

This thread has five pages and doesn't even touch the surface really of her abilities.

@perfect_10:

@jwalser3 said:

Attention everyone, you're all underestimating Elektra.

Wow

Great @tparks

Many Shredder feats

It's nice and all but my girl Elerkta can handle him. You bring up the turtles enhanced speed as well as Splinters. Well Elektra has been able to hang with Wolveirne on multiple occasions.

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Wolverine has noted that she is fast, and proof seen above she is able to dance around Logan more than once.

Along with the likes of Daredevil, Silver Samurai, TaskMaster, and Domino, she's fast and skilled enough to take on people with soupier stats.

As far as bullet feats go Elektra actually has more to show then just ABC logic and one push feat.

I mean even in strength she is crazy. She can break bones with single kicks, rip heads off, bust holes through chests. Hell take a look at this.

That s!^& was insane! That's like if you caught a baseball and it tore off your hand and then your disarmed limb went through the bullet proof vest you were wearing. Plus she launched it faster then the guy could pull off a shot!

Seeing how only Shredder's arms, head, and feet are covered in armor, a punch through the chest or a sai to the heart could end this easily.

Along with a pressure points she's ever so good and and Shredder;s shredded.

Plus, DAT SPEED

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1. Kills yards upon yards of security before they can fire a shot
2. Disarms Frank Castle without him knowing
3. Killing a man across a room before he can finish his sentence
4. Vanishes in plan sight!

Elektra kinda has this all covered. Shredder is impressive, but Elektra casually dodges bullets and hangs with some of the Marvel-U's best fighters. She is a force to be feared!

Also in terms of Elektra's speed,

She's defeated a group of armed men and hauled ass from an exploding ship in 15 seconds

Dodged gunfire whilst feverish and weakened

And ran through a mercenary camp without anyone seeing her

As for the strength advatage

Elektra has stabbed and lifted two men straight off the ground with her Sai

Here she casually knocks two men high into the air with her initial assault

And there's more. So I see Elektra definitely having the physical stats to hang with Shredder as she's dealt with superhumans like Logan and Silver Samurai as well as trained martial artists.

Voted for Elektra on this one.

The best assassin in MU, better skill sets, she can even dance around top tier fighter like Dare Devil. Not to mention she can control her physical stats (chi)...and regularly display superhuman reflexes and reaction feats.

@tparks Though your analysis is awesome and you definitely should make a non scan post for Viner argument of the week for Shredder being one of the resident TMNT experts on here alongside Gregg and co, you do miss one crucial characteristic trait of an in character Shredder. He's a mysogynist to put it bluntly with quite ancient views on the role of women. He refused to let Karai serve as his second in command despite the fact she'd effectively led the Foot Clan for years before resurrecting Shredder in favour of installing Leonardo as his chunin. He puts down Alopex in her mini issue when she attacks him for destroying her old home. And in interviews Waltz has confirmed this assertion. Thus, I see Shredder being likely to underestimate the fighting capabilities of Elektra and if he does such a thing, he's practically handing Elektra the win. She may not have Shredder's lifetimes of experience but her skill, speed, stealth and strength feats are more than a match for Shredder without him underestimating her.

@jwalser3: Those are some pretty awesome feats and the best use of a rotating dog head I've ever seen. Shredder does have one bullet timing feat. It's the only time he's ever had someone try and attack him with a gun on panel, well it's actually Leo the gun is aimed at.

• Shredder has a quicker reaction time then Leo in this feat. Leo is one of the best bullet timers there is too.

I never thought of Shredder in this aspect. I wouldn't really call him a mysogynist, because he treats pretty much everyone like they are below him regardless if they are men or women. The only reason we see him treating women so bad is because his top Foot soldiers are both women, so that is who we see him interacting with the most. In all three of his lifetimes, the only one who has ever been able to threaten him is Splinter. He's never had someone that he thinks is deserving of his respect besides Splinter, and even then he does not hold very much respect for Splinter.

Shredder also does seem to hold a pretty high measure of respect for Karai and Alopex as warriors, but just not the respect they want as people (or foxes that act like people). It could be true that Shredder does not feel that women can hold leadership positions as well as men, but he definitely does not underestimate their fighting abilities. That is why he feels confident sending both Alopex and Karai on his most important missions for the foot.

When Shredder put down Alopex after he destroyed her home, it was not really a showing of disrespect either. It was actually, in Shredder's own evil methods, a showing of his respect for her skill. He even claims that he would have killed anyone else who attacked him, but because Alopex is such a valuable warrior, he would forgive her mistake. Shredder would not be so forgiving if he did not value Alopex's abilities. I think Shredder planned on this exchange happening when he brought her to see the destruction of her home. He knew she would attack, and he wanted to make sure she knew to never try something like this again. He was saying, "I destroyed your home and there is nothing you can do about it. Your life is mine. Accept it." Shredder wouldn't have gone through all of the trouble to fly with Alopex to Antartica and teach her this lesson if he didn't have a huge amount of respect for her abilities and what she can do for the Foot Clan.

To sum up, I don't see Shredder not respecting Elektra as a warrior. He may not respect her as a person, but he will definitely not doubt her skills. It would be very out of character for Shredder to go easy on someone because he thinks they are weak.

You're kind of a little bitch. It was a joke, I'm not saying I'm important to the site just that you're talking about how no one is defending Elektra and going on some bs feminazi rant.

@tparks: With the bullet time feat, it's only one for Shredder and over half a dozen for Elektra. It's one thing to dodge bullets, it's another thing to slice them in half with sai as Elektra has done. If that isn't an edge in reaction time feats, I don't know what is.

@tparks: Ehh I kind of posted this in the comment. Lol.

As far as bullet feats go Elektra actually has more to show then just ABC logic and one push feat.

It's an impressive feat, but compared to what Elektra has done..

It would be an interesting fight.

@jwalser3: @lvenger: It is only one feat, but no one he fights has the need to use guns as weapons so there hasn't been a need for him to dodge a lot of bullets.. Everyone he fights against is above using guns because their natural abilities are so much more deadly then a gun. In the feat I posted, he shows better reaction time then Leo. Leo is an incredible bullet timer too.

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• Scan 1: Leo deflects laser fire with his sword
• Scan 2: Leo dodges laser fire from nutrinos
• Scan 3: Leo cuts down six arrows that were shot by Karai at the same time. Karai has some Green Arrow/Hawkeye level archery feats too.
• Scan 4: Dodges laser fire from the giant mouser
• Scan 5: Dodges a point blank gun shot. He was so close to the person firing the gun that he could trip his attacker immediately after dodging.
• Scan 6: (Same as 5, for some reason it copied twice, I'm too lazy to dig up feats a second time though. lol

I think you're basing your opinion of Shredder off of a different version of Shredder. This is IDW's comic version of Shredder, I think your are referring to the cartoon because IDW Shredder has never created minion robots.

@tparks: As I said earlier, Elektra also has better feats than that. She's gotten the drop on Daredevil even with his reactions and radar sense, she's hung with Logan another low level superhuman who Spider-Man has trouble with tagging in many of their fights and has disarmed Frank at close range without him realising it and Frank is a stellar marksman with a quick shot. Yet Elektra disarms him with ease. Also @jwalser3's scan is another piece of evidence in Elekta's favour since she's deflecting bullets with her sai and those blades are tiny in comparison to Leo's katanas.

@tparks: It's nice and all. I just don't want to assume that Shredder can do that bullet. I mean Elektra has disarmed people without them knowing, she's vanished in plain sight! How is Shredder suppose to keep up with those kinds of stats?

@lvenger: That is very impressive, but Daredevil and Wolverine do not have the strength the Turtles have. Wolverine might have a few feats that put him at the turtles strength level, but for the most part he is peak human of just above peak human. The turtles all have low level superhuman feats that put them around 8-10 tons. They don't always use this much strength because they don't want to kill, but they do use it against Shredder, because Splinter has told them that Shredder's life needs to end for them to ever have peace. Elektra really doesn't have an edge in her ability to fight superhuman characters because Shredder fights 4 superhuman characters at the same time with ease. He never lets them get in a position to actually use their strength against him.

As far as @jwalser3's scan, Elektra may be able to deflect bullets with her sais, but I don't think that is going to help her here. Raph can deflect lasers with his sais, but this kind of speed and reaction time has never helped him in his fights with Shredder.

@tparks:

Wolverine might have a few feats that put him at the turtles strength level, but for the most part he is peak human of just above peak human.

False.

@tparks: Scans of this 10 ton strength? Because I've already stated that she can rip off heads and punch through chests. That should be enough to take care of him.

@jwalser3 said:

@tparks: It's nice and all. I just don't want to assume that Shredder can do that bullet. I mean Elektra has disarmed people without them knowing, she's vanished in plain sight! How is Shredder suppose to keep up with those kinds of stats?

Those are definitely some crazy feats. I'm not sure if this will work against Shredder or not. I have a hard time believing that ninja tactics are going to be that much of an edge against a guy who has been the leader of the most powerful ninja clan on Earth for three separate lifetimes, one of his lifetimes lasted for several generations because of Kitsune's magic and the Utrom's ooze.

He has beaten characters like Splinter, Karai, and the turtles who all of which have used ninja tactics like smoke pellets or ducking into shadows to disappear. I will admit that no one in the IDW universe has done anything that impressive as far as ninja disappearing tactics go though. Elektra also was not using the disappearing trick against someone on Shredder's level. I'm not low-balling Frank Castle, the guys a beast, I'm just saying that Shredder would recognize ninja tactics before Castle would and so I'm not sure she could pull that off against Shredder.

I get what you're saying. That's true, but I think it's less "ninja tactics" and more speed then anything else.

@jwalser3: It's looks to me like an equal part of speed and deception. It even says in the first scan that she disappears "in and out of the shadows". That sounds like a ninja tactic to me, but It's definitely not something that is going to weaken her chances against Shredder. I'm just not sure how much it will help her either.

Off topic, but where do people exactly pick up the idea that Wolverine is peak human? Is it his movie version that feeds this myth? I'll never know.....

Jwalser and Lvenger have convinced me that Elektra could take this

From what I've heard, I'm leaning towards too close to call.

I'm giving this to Elektra, even if I like Shredder a lot more

My major knowledge about elektra is the original frank miller run so I'm a little bit out of the loop when it comes to her recent upgrades but i still consider her to be a very skilled fighter. Shredder on the other hand fights four turtles and a rat and sometimes loses. I think shred heads strong suit is strategy and leadership and although he is a skilled fighter elektra has more feats. But to counter that in my mind when I think of elektra fighting the first thing I see is her getting shanked through by bullseye with her own sai. I'm gonna go with too close too call

@

Lol...it is just the misinformation and misperception cycle that is ongoing. I used to think that myself until I started hanging around the battle forums. It's like good old Cap, most people tend to think he is peak human...

As for the battle itself...

It's a tough fight, and Elektra has far more scans and feats to pull from. She has more appearances, and that is a fact. Shredder may not have all of the showings she has, but he can manhandle those that do have similar showings (the Turtles, Karai, etc). Couple that with the fact that he was doing nearly superhuman feats before the mutagen and magic in his first lifetime...close fight, but I am still on Shredder's corner in this one.

@tparks is doing a fine job representing Shredder here, even though he still needs to do a scan-less version of his post so he can be considered for a viner argument of the week=)

@wyldsong:

I guess people can't take a stubby 5'3 guy for being superhuman :D

@wolverine08: It is sad but true my friend, there is just no respect for the little guy there=)

I wish I had time to really debate this and show all of the scans and such, but I have to hit the books here in a few minutes. That being said, mutagen in the new IDW series doesn't just make creatures with vaguely human stats. They are shown to be somewhat superhuman (and definitely well into superhuman in many cases -- see the Beebop and Rocksteady mini where they completely demolish a multistory building by themselves and tank bullets and various other weapons like they were mosquito bites).

As for how strong the turtles actually are, I can't really say. The turtles themselves are constantly making superhuman leaps, like from the building tops and such, and we are talking the ability to clear rooftops from one side of the street to the next, and from ground level to the tops of buildings in some cases, which definitely takes a bit of superhuman strength:

Couple that with slicing and dicing bullet proof mousers, and so on, I think we can see where people get the idea that they have superhuman strength. Bear in mind that Shredder spent a few lifetimes bathing in a batch of mutagen before being awoken by Karai, which was said to make him immortal (well that and Kitsune's magic).

I'll let tparks handle the rest from here, just wanted to throw that thought out.

Yeah Elektra takes the cake she has way more feats then shredder

@tparks: Are there feats which put them in the 8-10 ton strength range definitively? They seem more like 2-5 tonners to me. And as @wolverine08 is fond of correcting people on, Logan does indeed have low level superhuman strength. I'd put it in the 2-5 ton range as well. Oh and for the record, Elektra has defeated Silver Samurai who has confirmed superhuman strength in the class 10 ton range. Here's his bio

So we have a mutant martial arts master who's given Wolverine trouble in the past. Yet Silver Samurai is defeated by Elektra in this fight

If you thought my first argument was convincing, get a load of my scans in the post above where she beats Silver Samurai, a 10 tonner martial artist who's given Wolverine a difficult fight in the past.

Just when I thought people would use Rafael as an argument......

Oh wow, I came into this thread thinking that Elektra didn't have that many notable feats, but it looks like I was definitely wrong. Keniuchio has indeed given Logan some good fights (Even though the last time he met up with Wolverine he did get his right arm cut off), and I must say Elektra beating him is noteworthy to say the least

Thank you!

Noteworthy and impressive indeed. I personally still don't think that gives her a win here, but it goes to show that this is a good and close fight indeed=)

Wait...I am supposed to be studying...oops...gotta go=P

Forget studying!

A raise of roughly 18K is on the line with this studying, wish I could ignore that my friend, but I can't=)

Very happy to see experts are chiming in for both sides. Hopefully people on the fence will read the debates presented before voting.

@allstarsuperman said:

you took the words right out of my mouth

Because some of his Official Bios say simply Enhance Strength, or rate him a mere 3 like 616 Cap and others with slightly above Peak Human Strength. Also the fact that in fights with many Peak human people but never seems to over power them. Also it is because he has no real list of lifting feats like say characters with Super human strength.

Many reasons actually. He is not written with strength in mind.

Their both the best at what they do

@cadencev2:

Because some of his Official Bios say simply Enhance Strength, or rate him a mere 3 like 616 Cap and others with slightly above Peak Human Strength.

Most current bios have him listed as a 4 (Low level superhuman). @super_soldierxii pretty much got down to the nitty gritty of this when he debated and won against you recently in a Buffy and Angel CaV.

Also the fact that in fights with many Peak human people but never seems to over power them.

The same could be said for other low level superhumans like Black Panther who fight peak humans...................................................................................................................................................

Also it is because he has no real list of lifting feats like say characters with Super human strength.

Completely and utterly false. Picking up a 1,600 lb. dumpster with one hand and casually throwing it across an alley way, picking up six men with one hand, using trees as baseball bats, lifting an elevator with one hand, etc. aren't feats that indicate superhuman strength to you?

I think it's because of the movies they low ball him in the movies I mean he got KO from one bullet to the head

True. The X movies didn't do Wolverine's powers well. LOL!

I hope the new one makes him a complete badass it would awsome

@tparks:

Good to see some good Shredder scans. His defeat of the army in his previous life is probably the best. But I don't think I see anything that automatically puts Elektra down.

A few major points: Other than his army-fighting scan, his best stuff is fighting on par with Splinter and the Turtles. If we take the IDW writers at their word (which I'm semi-skeptical about, but let's assume it's true for the sake of argument) that Splinter is Batman-level, then we should look at Elektra and see what comparisons we can make. She has often (see my scans on the bottom of the first page...I put them under the spoiler block so I think a lot of people have skipped over them) fought Daredevil to a stalemate. Daredevil is usually considered to be more or less at Batman level. Not to mention Silver Samurai, Shang-Chi, etc. So while you don't want to do a direct ABC, essentially both Shredder and Elektra have been shown fighting Batman-level opponents.

Armor: while Shredder is armored and Elektra isn't, she has been shown to shove a gun through armor as shown in scans above, and even more impressively to shove her sai in to Red She Hulk (again see my scans on the first page). Clearly if she can injure Red She Hulk she doesn't have to worry about Shredder's armor.

Speed: she has consistently been shown to act faster than the eye can follow. While Shredder can fight the Turtles, I still haven't seen real proof of him or them having truly superhuman stats. People block lasers just as easily as bullets in comics all the time. While that should be more impressive due to lasers' greater speed, it usually just doesn't work like that in comics physics. (A laser goes at light speed, so the time it takes for the beam to get to you is the same amount of time for you to see it leaving the barrel, so theoretically there is literally no time for you to react to it, so blocking them with a sword is an impossible feat.)

But even if we assume the turtles are superhuman to the degree you're saying...Elektra (see scans on first page) has taken on a whole cadre of superhuman skrulls at once, with all kinds of powers.

Stealth: Elektra is super-stealthy, able to sneak up on Daredevil multiple times despite his radar sense and enhanced other senses. She can certainly go into the shadows and attack from a distance, and Shredder'll never know. Whereas Shredder is not sneaking anywhere in that armor.

Skill: Shredder's skill feats are mostly on fighting high-skill opponents and lots of low-level soldiers at once. Elektra has also fought high-level opponents and lots of random people, but in addition she has specific feats of sword skill beyond that hat show her total mastery of her weapons. (see scans of her cutting the guy's limbs off without them falling off, and her cutting the other ninja's headband).

So so far, Shredder and Elektra both have high-level feats when it comes to fighting other characters, but Elektra seems faster, stealthier, capable of defeating Shredder's armor, and more specifically proven to be highly skilled in the use of her weapons.

@wolverine08 I actually did not mean to low-ball Wolverine. I've argued that he is above peak human in battle threads. I was just saying he is not as strong as the Turtles high end feats which are close to 10 tons.

@wyldsong Thanks! I might edit my initial post and take out some scans. I have a hard time resisting throwing some scans in though. lol

@jwalser3@lvenger I don't claim Shredder to be 10 tons. Just the turtles. Shredder may be slightly above superhuman in his newest body, as he has done some things that peak humans shouldn't be able to do, but that is not out of the ordinary for peak humans in comics. As far as the turtles go....

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• Scan 1: The turtles can jump to the top of a roof from the street. Look how high leo clears the roof too.
• Scan 2: Throws the body of a foot soldier through a window that looks to be 10 or 12 feet high, the body has enough force behind it to travel about 20-30 yards before crashing into Shredder. This is easily a 8-10 ton feat.
• Scan 3: Donny shatters Splinters mask with a strike from his staff, and Raph kicks Shredder hard enough to put a crater in the wall behind him. This is the scene where Shredder later reveals that he let the turtles win because he saw the leadership qualities Leo had and wanted to capture Leo later to make him his Chunin (Dark Leo)
• Scan 4: Mikey puts down Slash with a punishing swing from his nunchuk to save Leo. This is probably the most impressive feat because it actually hurts Slash. Slash is a tank. Nothing has hurt Slash besides this and Leo hitting stabbing him in his only vulnerable spot in his shoulder. This is one of the reasons I always argue that Mikey is the strongest of the turtles.
• Scan 5: Raph tosses one of Old Hob's gang members like a rag doll effortlessly
• Scan 6: Raph tosses a another of Old Hob's thugs with only one arm with enough force to take out three other thugs.
• Scan 7: Raph throws Old Hob what looks to be about 20 feet away from him. (Raph did a lot of throwing people before he recalled his ninja training)
• Scan 8: The turtles are able to leap from one building to another building on the opposite side of the street with ease.

I also have scans of them easily destroying mousers which are shown to be bullet proof. They were designed to safely destroy IED's so they had to be durable enough for the task.

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There is also the feat from Infestation 2 where they toppled a statue onto Shub-Niggurath. I still can't get over that one of the turtles first victories was over an Old One. lol

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• This statue looked to weigh 40-50 tons and it was pushed over by only three of the turtles.

There is also this one of Mikey proving that he is a beast when it comes to physicals.

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• Mikey chases down an already flying transport ship. This shows his incredible speed to catch up to the already flying ship, and then he leaps an incredible height and lands inside the ship. He then takes out a few of Krang's rock soldiers, and jumps with the princess to save her.

The point isn't that Shredder is superhuman as much that he consistently takes on 4 superhuman characters that are 8-10 tonners at the same time effortlessly.

I've never seen that feat of her taking on Silver Samurai, that's pretty impressive. It doesn't look like strength really mattered in that fight anyways, because she was never really touched by him. That's not a bad thing at all for her because it shows that she can avoid attacks. The only thing that would be nice to see is how she does when she is hit by something that can produce 10 tons of force. Shredder has been hit by the turtles and is left pretty much unharmed. I'm not sure if that is because of his natural durability or because of his armor, but at least it shows that Elektra is going to have to pack a pretty mean punch to hurt Shredder.

@owie Shredder has faced more then just the turtles and Splinter. He emberassed Karai and a group of her Foot Soldiers. He takes all of them out in seconds. This shows some of his fighting speed. I know people will try to low-ball Karai, but she is very talented and should be taken seriously. I have the feats to back her up if anyone is unfamiliar of her. Here's the scan of Shredder taking out Karai and her ninjas.

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You can see in the small panels just how fast Shredder's movements are to take down the Foot Soldiers. Foot soldiers are not just a bunch of cannon fodder like you normally see in comics either. I don't have access to one scan of the Foot with me, but it shows that the Foot Soldiers are fast and agile enough to run and jump acrobatically enough that is hard for even the turtles to keep up. It is from the first issue that shows the savate clan. Foot ninjas are even capable of bullet timing and deflecting bullets. In the scan below, a random foot soldier deflects 4 bullets shot at the same time with his sword.

So even if the foot are the punching bags of the series, feats against them should not be completely igonred.

And as far as Karai, she is up there with some of the most skilled martial artists there is in all of comics. I think she would be a pretty good match for Elektra, but Shredder makes her look like a child.

I do agree that both have some very high level feats, and I've learned quite a few that I did not even know Elektra had, but Shredder has never had a single feat that isn't high level. Everything he has done to this point has been top tier street level feats. He now has a decently large amount of feats to draw from too. Every time Shredder is in action in the series, you expect to see Batman level martial arts. You never expect to see a poor showing from him, because there never has been. There hasn't even been an average showing yet.

@tparks:

I think Wolverine's strength feats outclass that of the turtles, and I don't think the TMNT are 10 tonners, but as long as you don't think Logan is peak human, we're cool :D